Some people have been reading the Kite Runner too much. Outside of Kabul, the Hazaras in places like Ghazni and Wardark actually have lived far, far better under the Taliban than they would under the Northern Alliance. This is a fact. Why were they not massacred like they were in places like Mazar and Yakawlang? That’s because the “massacres” there were the result of fighting. The Hazaas did the same thing to the Pashtuns when they overran them with the US of A’s help:

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2002/03/05/anti-pashtun-violence-northern-afghanistan

That’s usually what happens in battle. One side loses and often gets killed in the process. I think that’s been going on for 1,000,000 years. Anyone from Afghanistan (outside of Kabul) who is objective knows that in rural Afghanistan there is far less ethnic strife than there is in the urban centers. This is because the urban centers are where politicians reside and they are the areas that hit the news.

Also, anyone who refers to “Harzas, Non-Phustans” (sic) need not comment on the affairs of Afghanistan.

Wow. Dan’s really mad LOL!

Good repsonse Amad, far better than the one I wrote.

(which didn’t get posted :P )

About the Afghan Taliban, I would just say this. Lets not forget that women like Yvonne Ridley embraced Islam after being released from their captivity voluntarily. That speaks a lot amidst the stereotypes

Who cares about Yvonne Ridley? She has proven to be an apologist for extremists, and is inconsistent with her views. The only reason some Muslims love her is because she’s held up as a ‘trophy convert’. She used to be a hack for a right-wing tabloid, and after her conversion she became an apologist for terrorists who take children hostage in schools (she praised Shamil Basayev as a shahid!) and bomb hotels (she stated that she would rather call Zarqawi her ‘brother’ over the Jordanian royal family). She claims to speak out against oppression, yet gleefully endorses oppression when so-called Islamic movements do so. Her soft spot for extremists in the UK (namely al-Muhajiroun) makes me skeptical of her, sorry.

If the report is true then, I pray to Allah to forgive our brother Anwar Al Awlaki his sins and to grant him Jannah, Aameen.

And if he is alive, I ask Allah to keep him safe and guide him away from the path he is currently upon and towards the Sirat Al Mustaqeem, the correct understand of the Aqeedah and Manhaj. Aameen

Dan, for the record, I do not want the Taliban to rule Afghanistan ever again (unless they make some very serious changes), but I do believe they should be allowed to represent their party in governmental elections. I believe this is going to happen eventually. Unfortunately, what is in the way of this is that a good portion of the country does want the Taliban back simply because they see them as the only force resisting occupation. Afghans would prefer an indigenous tyrant over a foreign liberator.

Yet, you keep spewing a lot of fallacious rhetoric and I wonder what perspective you’re coming from.

“Tell you what Amad, why don’t you go to Bamyan, Takhar, and Baghlan provinces and see if they want the Taliban back.”

Have you? I spoke to Uzbeks from Baghlan in 2001 and they stated that they felt more secure under the Taliban and they are the smallest minority in Baghlan along with the Hazaras.

“Hazaras suffered a lot under their rule, which is comparable to what the Israelis did to Gaza, yet you choose not to believe them.”

You keep repeating this like a mantra, but you still never replied as to how the Pashtuns of Wardak, as just one of many examples, elected HAZARAS to represent them in the Wolesi Jirga. Wardak is 60% Pashtun, yet 3 or their 5 elected representatives are Hazaras. Please explain that.

It is true that Hazaras’ social status in Afghanistan is similar to that of the Blacks of America. Yet, while we all acknowledge that the Blacks have suffered greatly, the Hazaras haven’t been through anything even remotely close. So to portray that the Hazaras were victims of genocide and slavery in Afghanistan is just absurd. Also, the prejudice against them is NOT reserved to Pashtuns, but to almost everyone in Afghanistan, primarily Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Pashtuns. They all treat Hazaras similarly to how Blacks are treated in the USA. Some parts of the USA treat Blacks well where they are in high concentrations and some parts of the USA treat Blacks poorly where they are tiny minorities. The same goes for Hazaras in Afghanistan. There’s no slavery and there’s no genocide. There’s a social stigma against them that goes back 1000 years to the Mongol invasions. Also, any Afghan (or anyone even familiar with Afghan society) knows that both Pashtuns and Tajiks alike refer to any Mongoloid featured Afghan as “Azaara”. Uzbeks, Mongoloid looking Tajiks such as are common in Badakhshan, Turkomen, etc are all called “Azaara” by the Tajiks and Pashtuns alike. It is not a prejudice against the Hazara race as much as it is a resentment to the Mongol invasions and decimation that is residual to this day. Hazaras just happen to be the most Mongoloid looking of all ethnicities in Afghanistan.

You also seem to completely gloss over the heinous crimes committed by the Hazaras under the banners of Hizb-e-Wahdat. Also, Dostum is half Hazara so Jumbish had a large Hazara following. Why are you silent about significant Hazara war crimes? Are they justified in your eyes?

“Newsflash Amad: Afghanistan isn’t 100% Sunni.”

Newsflash Dan: Hazaras aren’t 100% Shi`ah. The Taymani and Aymaqs are Sunni in spite of aggressive Iranian sponsored Shi`ite missionary activity amongst them. Most Hazaras in Ghor and Badghis are Sunni. Many Hazaras are Ismaili and outcasted by both the Shi`as and the Sunnis.

Frankly speaking, and with all due respect, I just don’t think you are as familiar with the demographics you are screaming about as you’d like everyone to think.

“Dan, for the record, I do not want the Taliban to rule Afghanistan ever again (unless they make some very serious changes), but I do believe they should be allowed to represent their party in governmental elections. I believe this is going to happen eventually.”

I don’t mind their representation either, but if they lose out, then they better not resort to bomb attacks as the Taliban in NWFP have been doing since the MMA lost out to the ANP last year.

“Unfortunately, what is in the way of this is that a good portion of the country does want the Taliban back simply because they see them as the only force resisting occupation. Afghans would prefer an indigenous tyrant over a foreign liberator.”

The only Afghans would want are Pashtuns. Again, Hazaras welcomed the US invasion since they received more rights than in any time in their history.

“Have you? I spoke to Uzbeks from Baghlan in 2001 and they stated that they felt more secure under the Taliban and they are the smallest minority in Baghlan along with the Hazaras.”

I’ll admit that the Taliban were able to provide security…at a price of course.

“You keep repeating this like a mantra, but you still never replied as to how the Pashtuns of Wardak, as just one of many examples, elected HAZARAS to represent them in the Wolesi Jirga. Wardak is 60% Pashtun, yet 3 or their 5 elected representatives are Hazaras. Please explain that.”

You keep parroting Wardak, which is most likely an anomaly. Still doesn’t change the fact that Hazaras were historically discriminated and hated against. And again, I did not get this from the Kite Runner, but from speaking to Hazaras who fled the Taliban’s rule in Melbourne, AU.

“It is true that Hazaras’ social status in Afghanistan is similar to that of the Blacks of America. Yet, while we all acknowledge that the Blacks have suffered greatly, the Hazaras haven’t been through anything even remotely close. So to portray that the Hazaras were victims of genocide and slavery in Afghanistan is just absurd.”

That is amusing. You downplay the sufferings of Hazaras while you fail to note that genocide and slavery DID occur. Abdur Rahman Khan invaded Hazarajat in the 1890s and tried to forcibly convert the Hazaras to Sunni Islam. Why else would there be large Hazara diaspora communities in Mashad, Iran, and Quetta, Pakistan? They were clearly victims of genocide not just by the Taliban but by Abdur Rahman Khan.

Here’s some food for thought:

By sending Sunni clerics to every village in Hazarajat Abd -al Rahman forced the Shiite Hazaras to attend Sunni mosques and abandon Shiism. He imposed tougher regulations on Hazaras by forcing them to pay heavy taxes. For instance, from 500 families in Ajristan each well-to-do family was forced to pay 40 Sir (6.7 Kg) wheat while the poor ones paid three Afs, each. In Daya Fulad, Zawuli and Sepai districts the state collected Afs. 80,000 and forced the Hazara girls into marriage. In the Shikhali district an estimated 7,000 head of cattle were taken away from Hazaras and 350 men and women of the Jaghori district had been sold at Kabul markets each at the price of 20-21 As. Abd al- Rahman’s brutal suppression compelled a large number of Hazaras to seek refuge in Iran. Pakistan and Russia, Abd al-Rehman could only succeed in subjugating Hazaras and conquering their land when he effectively utilized internal differences within the Hazara community, co-opting sold-out Hazara chiefs into his bureaucratic sales of the enslaved Hazara men, women and children in 1897, the Hazaras remained de facto slaves until King Amanullah declared Afghanistan’s independence in 1919.

“Also, the prejudice against them is NOT reserved to Pashtuns, but to almost everyone in Afghanistan, primarily Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Pashtuns. They all treat Hazaras similarly to how Blacks are treated in the USA. Some parts of the USA treat Blacks well where they are in high concentrations and some parts of the USA treat Blacks poorly where they are tiny minorities. The same goes for Hazaras in Afghanistan. There’s no slavery and there’s no genocide.”

Again, read the excerpt above if you’re still in denial.

“There’s a social stigma against them that goes back 1000 years to the Mongol invasions. Also, any Afghan (or anyone even familiar with Afghan society) knows that both Pashtuns and Tajiks alike refer to any Mongoloid featured Afghan as “Azaara”. Uzbeks, Mongoloid looking Tajiks such as are common in Badakhshan, Turkomen, etc are all called “Azaara” by the Tajiks and Pashtuns alike. It is not a prejudice against the Hazara race as much as it is a resentment to the Mongol invasions and decimation that is residual to this day. Hazaras just happen to be the most Mongoloid looking of all ethnicities in Afghanistan.”

So why is it that every Pashtun wants all Hazaras sent back to Mongolia? Like it or not, it is a sentiment espoused by a lot of Pashtuns. Pashtuns hate Hazaras simply because Hazaras are hard-working people who are not opposed to females being educated.

“You also seem to completely gloss over the heinous crimes committed by the Hazaras under the banners of Hizb-e-Wahdat. Also, Dostum is half Hazara so Jumbish had a large Hazara following. Why are you silent about significant Hazara war crimes? Are they justified in your eyes?”

Can you cite me a Hazara war crime that comes close to Mazar-i-Sharif, Yakaolang, and Robotok?

Your arguments are similar to how Serbs use when they try to bring up Muslim crimes in Bosnia, ignoring the fact that they committed the bulk of the heinous crimes. It’s quite hypocritical for Muslims to adopt such an absurd position to place blame on the victim.

“Newsflash Dan: Hazaras aren’t 100% Shi`ah. The Taymani and Aymaqs are Sunni in spite of aggressive Iranian sponsored Shi`ite missionary activity amongst them. Most Hazaras in Ghor and Badghis are Sunni. Many Hazaras are Ismaili and outcasted by both the Shi`as and the Sunnis.”

The Aymaqs don’t even consider themselves to be Hazara for crying out loud.

“Frankly speaking, and with all due respect, I just don’t think you are as familiar with the demographics you are screaming about as you’d like everyone to think.”

With all due respect, I think you are in denial about the extent of the crimes that Pashtun Sunnis have committed against the Hazara. There is plenty of evidence to showcase that which is not derived simply from The Kite Runner.

Salaam