Politics
Pakistan Elections: Different Name, Same Old Players….
By Irum Sarfaraz
Although Pakistan waits with bated breath for the final results of the election the results so far show a resounding victory for PPP and Nawaz Sharif with a crushing defeat for the dear General. Can’t say that the general didn’t ask for this but how true is what we see and how false is what we are made to believe? Yes the notions of democracy are very appealing to the people who feel that holding these elections will free them from the clutches of the tyranny of the general who in turn has been nothing but a puppet of the US. That is exactly the reason why the public hates him so much. But the public also needs to realize that any third world country, Pakistan included can only be as democratic as the superpower wants it to be. They do what America wants because that is the rule of the game. (Phentermine) The only reason why Benazir had returned was because there had been a deal with the US that if elected to power she will cooperate with them, and there were already insinuation of this cooperation in her speeches after her arrival in Pakistan. Though Benazir is out of the picture but the PPP has still won, with tons of votes the votes of ‘sympathy’. Ironically, her death did serve her party well.
The next step in all probability should be that PPP and Nawaz form a coalition but somehow that is not too likely for the primary reason that Nawaz made the reinstatement of the judiciary one of the conditions for such a coalition so that Musharaff can be gotten rid of. Nawaz is also not as keen for an all out US presence in Pakistan for weeding out Bin Laden and his pals as is the PPP and hence his coalition with PPP will only lead to friction between the two parties rather than any smooth accord that the public imagines will ensue. Therefore it should come as no surprise to anyone if the PPP refuses to join hands with Nawaz and agrees to let Musharaff, perhaps with much diminished power, still stay on. That is what the US would want and more often than not, what the US wants, the US gets.
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So how important really is a ‘democratic’ Pakistan to the US? Democracy in Pakistan is not of a concern to the US as it does not affect its mission of rooting out Al-Qaeda and Taliban operatives from in and around the region. Democracy is good for the US only in the sense that a democratically elected presence will be a moderate one and hence more inclined to support the US on Pakistani soil. Plus the US will also look good with a democratic nation as its ally. Other than that, the notion of a democracy will be nothing but a fool’s paradise for the poor Pakistanis who are in for a big jolt if they think democracy will help them at all. True that Benazir was the person of choice but now that she isn’t’ here, the US shouldn’t really have any problems making do with Zardari. It really won’t keep them from pursuing their actual interests, or Bin Laden, at all.
Charles Krauthammer presents a very clear US objective in his article, ‘What is America to Do about Pakistan?’, ‘Pakistan is not the first time we’ve faced hard choices about democratization. At the height of the Cold War, particularly in the immediate post-Vietnam era of American weakness, we supported dictators Augusto Pinochet in Chile and Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines. The logic was simple: The available and likely alternative—i.e., communists—would be worse’. It won’t be surprising if the US applies the same formula to Pakistan. Democratically held elections are a good idea to pacify the public and make self look good to the rest of the world—who cares beyond that as it will not deter the actual plan of action anyway.
Is the US really ‘fooling’ Pakistan by ‘pretending’ to support Democracy? Happens all the time as part of US Foreign Policy. The world doesn’t really need to know anything about the real deals that transpire behind the curtains. Krauthammer further writes in the same article, ‘Universal democratization is lovely but it cannot be a description of day-to-day diplomacy. The blanket promise of always opposing dictatorship is inherently impossible to keep. It always requires considerations of local conditions and strategic necessity’. So what is the necessity in our case? To make sure a moderate stays in the seat who will support and cooperate with the US whenever it feels like extending its feet further into Pakistan. Democracy looks good on paper but cannot be abided by in every situation and let’s face it, if there is one extraordinary political situation in the world right now, it is Pakistan. It can be seen as ample proof of America’s hypocrisy in defending freedom and outwardly supporting democracy but do we have a choice? Heads we lose, tails we lose…….
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Suhail
February 20, 2008 at 6:21 PM
Pakistan was a lost case in the hands of the general and is lost case in the hands of the power hungry wretched politicians from PPP and PML. Until the people of Pakistan dont realize that the goal of making pakistan was to implement Islam they will be humiliated by one or the other individual.
It is really sad when you see a nation made for lofty goals being raped by its own power hungry leaders. Indeed as Prophet(SAW) said we are living in the era of dictatorship and these elections will solve nothing at all.
Pakistani
February 21, 2008 at 4:43 AM
75% population of Pakistan is illiterate and out of those 25% who are literate are mainly primary pass people. Democracy is a good system but it assumes the population can make a sound and “educated” decision about their future. As you can see,…this is not the case here. The election of the corrupt and stupid leaders time and again in the 1990s proves this and even now.
Our best bet was and is Pres. Musharaff. I cant think of another leader in the world as dynamic and profilic as him right now, please if u think there is one do tell.
On being controlled by US, which muslim country apart from Iran is not influenced by US. Unlike most muslim countries Pakistan under Musharaf has held it’s own Alhamdullilah after 9/11,when we were facing total anhilation. We can still maintain our heads high unlike some( Libyians on nuclear issue) who sold Pakistan out just to save their own behinds.
abu ameerah
February 21, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Pakistan Zindabad!
(…yeah right…)
Suhail
February 21, 2008 at 11:34 AM
LOL now i see how can General Busharraf can sit over pakistan and kill fellow muslims with impunity. When you have supporter of busharraf like our brother Pakistani you dont need US or any other enemy to do anything.
Sigh pakistan will remain a failed state until people dont realize why they made the state to begin with and its goals. If Pakistan was meant to be a secular state why the heck do you need to have a partition and then that two nation theory doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.
Amad
February 21, 2008 at 12:21 PM
“Pakistani”, do u live in pakistan?
If u do, u must be one of the 10 supporters left there, the other 9 being his family members and the US ambassador.
I just came back from a visit to pakiland. I mean if mushi had atleast given us some development, we may have been willing to give him an opening. But I have never seen a worst time with regards to basic infrastructure such as power, gas, water. It has gone downhill and you can ask any ordinary pakistani and he will agree. All the gdp growth has been “forced” (due to post 9/11 environment) capital inflow. Mushi did nothing except to increase fahshaa (lewdness) amongst the well-off and desperation amongst the poorest.
He killed his own ppl indiscriminately, and that is one thing that we will never forgive or forget. The ghosts of lal masjid are now haunting him. And the injustice is coming around and capturing him by the throat. He will be history soon inshallah. If not, then perhaps that is what we deserve and that indeed is a stunning indictment from Allah about our affairs.
Irum Sarfaraz
February 21, 2008 at 3:32 PM
Pakistani, if Musharaff is abhorred by the people it is because he sold his soul to the devil and the pride and dignity of Pakistan along with it. If the now elected leaders are ‘corrupt and stupid’, what is Musharaff?? As a Muslim nation, our heads are not ‘high’ post 9/11, they are bent in shame. If there is a nation that is refusing to oblige to tyranny of the first order, it is Iran and if there is a Muslim nation that deserves to be proud, it is Iran.
Amad
February 21, 2008 at 10:08 PM
If there was ever a truthful moment coming from this guy, it had to be this one:
Hey, it almost seems he copied my lines!
Source: http://dawn.com/2008/02/21/top9.htm
In other news, as Sr. Irum pointed out, hypocritically, America continues to heavily meddle in Pakistan’s affairs AGAINST democratic and constitutional betterment, by pushing PPP to support PML-Q and give up PML-N as well as the idea of reinstatement of judges. What a shame! They are desperate to protect their dictator, and I won’t be surprised if there is some other pressure put on Zardari (it’s not like he is principled either) to give up Nawaz… how about an assassination of Nawaz?? I won’t put that past the CIA.
Source: http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=13117
Irum Sarfaraz
February 21, 2008 at 11:05 PM
You are right br. Amad. Nawaz better watch his ‘head’ !!! If you know what I mean.
Pakistani
February 22, 2008 at 4:16 AM
q
Pakistani
February 22, 2008 at 7:00 AM
Salam,
Well the ‘visits’ to Pakistan must really give you a total insight into the psyche of the people here, even better than those who have lived all the events this country has gone through. You are real geniouses. *EDITED*
Pakistani
February 22, 2008 at 7:03 AM
On killing our own people(Lal masjid), these folks were outlaws, but to keep things under the rug, the authorities always hesitated to act against them(that’s unexcusable). Until these idiots kidnapped chinese citizens(what ever they claimed the reason was). If you really lived in Pakistan you would know what we feel about this. Killing,kidnapping foreigners is one thing but china is another. ..contd..
Pakistani
February 22, 2008 at 7:05 AM
They were baracaded inside with astounding amount of ammo, judges came, even ministers came and pleaded them for the sake of the children inside to giveup,but they didnt, wanting total immunity. ….contd…
Pakistani
February 22, 2008 at 7:13 AM
Just due to this many elite commandos lost their lives, other wise it was a very straight forward extermination operation, which would have resulted in minimum casulties to the govt. and all to these criminals.
Pakistani
February 22, 2008 at 9:16 AM
Total immunity could not be allowed by any government in the world including US which does not negotiate with terrorist. Keeping in mind the safety of children operation was carrried out, just due to this many elite commandoes lost their lives.
Pakistani
February 22, 2008 at 9:20 AM
The blood of the victims of lalmasjid is not in musharrafs hands but the two mullah brothers one of them tried to flee in a burqah leaving the children to the fire, may God burn them in deepest fires of hell.
But u know all that.
Everybody forgets what Nawaz and BB did to this country ,in Nawaz ‘s govt. supreme court was raided by his croonies, not to speak of the corruption and theft by Zardari.
Amad
February 22, 2008 at 9:20 AM
“Pakistani”,
Your last line was removed because of obscenities. You need to mind your language here. If you have a point, you can make it without being obnoxious.
By the way, my parents and all my extended family lives in Pakistan. In my visit, I talked with many people, from the servants to the people working in private sectors, to the businessmen, in order to get a picture of what is going on. I plan to write something about those perspectives one day.
The polls and what happened on election day do NOT lie. The majority of Pakistanis LIVING IN PAKISTAN, do NOT agree with you. That is the fact, despite any attempts at rigging (I am sure they tried, but the odds were overwhelming). Read my last comment and statements from Sheikh Rashid. I think he lives in Pakistan too, right?
As for Lal Masjid, you should read my previous posts on it. We have already discussed it in length. If after reading it, you still think there is something left, feel free to add another comment.
wsalam
Pakistani
February 22, 2008 at 9:23 AM
But what about the press freedom provided by musharaf(which bit him in the arse), but was it provided by bb or Nawaz, NO!
A word of advice;
while trying to judge the situation in Pakistan (while being abroad), do convince yourselves, whatever you might THINK is happening here, you are thinking WRONG.
Pakistani
February 22, 2008 at 9:24 AM
P.s, sorry my reply was long and the browser was not loading it all at once so I had to break it down. Sorry for Bad editing.
Pakistani
February 22, 2008 at 9:31 AM
Salam,
Amad said>>The polls and what happened on election day do NOT lie. The majority of Pakistanis LIVING IN PAKISTAN, do NOT agree with you.
That’s the point I am trying to make, majority of Pakistanis are illiterate, and poor. If you would have lived here you would have known first hand how so many people from villages were rounded up to welcome BB and you Would have known what the turnout of the election was. You would also have known that it’s Pakistan and not Pakiland, try that thing again and you will have more and I will not be minding my language towards a parha likha pakistani jahil, jis ko hamaree mulk see bahir he hoona chahiyee(educated illiterate who should live outside Pakistan).
Suhail
February 22, 2008 at 11:39 AM
Brother you are a case of typical nationalist. The so called crimes of Lal Masjid people was not that great to bomb the hell out of them. When Pakistani army gets into real fight they surrender everytime to india but they are so brave in fighting there own people.
Forget Lal Masjid what about Fata and Waziristan. Shame on you if you agree with his bombing his own people.
The Pakistani people like you are to be blamed what is happening in the country made to be a place for Islamic revival . Where is Islam in that country? It is ruled by landlords, corrupt politicians and secular elite.
You and others who are supporter of this corrupt government apparatus are to be blamed because it is one thing to be silent and not with the oppressor but you are in the bed with the oppressor aka there supporter and thus a oppressor too. There main goal is promoting lewdness and immorality, making Pakistan a secular democracy with you as a supporter. May Allah humiliate all who oppress and support the oppressor.
imran khan
February 22, 2008 at 12:57 PM
O<k people…………………………….
1) i am not a supporter of PPP or PLM, however i welcome that election have taken place and both leading parties should make the government
2) The situation is not perfect but it will take time.
3) i recommend that you read British history, and pay attention to The English Civil War
4) Execution of King Charles I is the foundation of parliamentarian democracy. And for a long period of time the parliament was NOT perfect, only the landlord could stand up for parliament etc etc .
3) Yes I would like Pakistan to get there a lot quicker but it takes time.
4) plzzzzzz don’t compare the situation with India, its different
Pakistani
February 22, 2008 at 1:06 PM
Here here
Pakistani
February 22, 2008 at 1:08 PM
Well said.
Suhail
February 22, 2008 at 4:39 PM
Assalam Alykum,
Brother Imran I am not making the point of who is getting elected and how does that affect the Pakistani Policy.
First of all there are few things that needs to be answered.
1) Pakistan was seperated from India on the ground of two nation theory. The theory was that Muslims because of there religion had a totally different identity than the majority hindus and thus cannot coexist together in a same country/society. The cause of the partition was Islam. If you remove Islam from the discussion then there was no reason to form Pakistan at all.
2) Jinnah in all his speech and other people who were supporting the cause of Pakistan mentioned at every juncture the threat to Islam in united India and how the muslims of India can save there religion in a new country based on Islamic principle and shariah.
3) Muslims in united India attached themselves to the cause of Pakistan because it was a cause for ISLAM. They wanted a land where they can practice there religion in every sector of life be it politics, social, or anyother place.
4) If pakistan was meant to be a secular democracy then there was no reason that muslims at that time would have given there blood and wealth for the cause because they would have gotten the same thing in India with some problems from the hindus. The reason they gave everything they have was because they wanted a state ruled by Islam. It is evident if we read the history of partition.
5) There is no comparison of Pakistan and India. The goals of these two nations are different. Pakistan means land of the pure which was the goal of the normal people who gave there life and wealth for it. Its goal was to establish Islam on that piece of land and live by it in every facet of life be it politics , social, or financial level. India on the other hand is a secular entity which doesn’t believe in Islam so comparison to it is not fair and absurd. So i am not comparing it. I was just saying that when it comes to fighting India pakistan’s army always fails but when it comes to its own people they bombard them like crazy while the Pakistani citizens are sleeping without any problem in there homes.
My dear brothers remember what Rasullah(SAW) said that if a muslim gets hurt the other feels the pain which means that if you dont help you muslim brethren in problems then nobody will help you when those same predators are going to eat you.
So if you remain silent at all the injustice being carried out in your name by the government against the fellow muslims be sure that the wrath of Allah will come upon you too because Allah always punishes the oppressor if not in this world then in the hereafter inshallah.
Now i ask you two brothers that where has pakistan come after these 50 years. I dont even see a sign of Islam being implemented at any level in Pakistan. Secular elite is increasing in power with educated secular people running the show. The masajids are being bombed which is a henious act.
I don’t care how democracy work or what PML and PPP will do. Pakistan is the result of blood and wealth of countless muslims because they wanted to make Islam the highest authority in pakistan. They never thought that it would come to this juncture where secular generals and corrupt politicians are running the show.
The problem is the apathy of Pakistani people and the disease of nationalism, sectarinism making hold in there hearts. The society itself is becoming corrupt. Illiteracy and poverty is not an excuse for people being ignorant of there Islamic duties. Sahabah were illiterate and poor but they were very concious about there duty to Allah(SWT) so that is not even an excuse.
What i am saying is that the situation of Pakistan is not going to change till the people i mean the layman of Pakistan doesn’t start practicing the religion of Islam in its entirety. The leaders that you get are the mirror of society since they came from within the society. I mean Busharraf, Zardari, Benazir, Nawaz they are all a product of pakistani society not some aliens.
imran khan
February 23, 2008 at 1:33 AM
Assalam waAlykum asslam
Brother Suhail,
Point 1 and 2) “….Pakistan was separated from India on the ground of two nation theory”…
Brother THE two Nation Theory DROWNED in Bay of Bengal in 1971!!
Yes Muhammad Ali Jinnah and his party used islam t call for a spreat homeland….but……at inaugurating the assembly on August 11, 1947, Jinnah spoke:
If we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor… you are free- you are free to go to your temples mosques or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state… in due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims- not in a religious sense for that is the personal faith of an individual- but in a political sense as citizens of one state.
On October 11, 1947, in Karachi, he said:
We should have a State in which we could live and breathe as free men and which we could develop according to our own lights and culture and where principles of Islamic social justice could find free play.
On February 21, 1948, in Karachi, he said:
You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil.
Point 3) So why did almost a third of the Muslims remained in the Hindu-majority India, whilst most of the Hindus and Sikhs chose to leave the Muslim-majority Pakistan and migrate to India ???
4) It was a dream sold by Oxford/Cambridge graduates with the backing of feudal landlord. Who to this day maintain authority in their area….. its sad fact..
5) You make me laugh brother. Fortunately or unfortunately my family decide to send me to study in Pakistan from class 5 to 9 before returning to UK for me GCSEs. On the plus, I managed to learn good Urdu/Arabic/Farsi, but for history we where feed pokies. Recently, the Government of Pakistan decided to revise history textbooks with a new interpretation of the Two-Nation theory, giving a moderate and less biased interpretation of the theory. An editorial in Pakistani daily Dawn remarked that this “honest” attempt was “long overdue” and that after “1971, when Bangladesh was born, the two-nation theory receded into the background as it lost its rationale.”
“…. where has Pakistan come after these 50 years. I dont even see a sign of Islam being implemented at any level in Pakistan…..”
Well brother I do believe that Islam is implemented by individuals to their best ability.
“…. countless muslims because they wanted to make Islam the highest authority in pakistan. They never thought that it would come to this juncture where secular generals and corrupt politicians are running the show….”
My heart bleeds with you on this point. But we can’t ignore the facts.
“.. Pakistan is not going to change till the people i mean the layman of Pakistan doesn’t start practicing the religion of Islam in its entirety…”
I agree with you to an extent but its more then religion that needs to be taken into account.
suhail
February 23, 2008 at 3:10 AM
Brother Imran I agree with you on most point but the point being the Pakistan is not a private estate of Jinnah but it is the result of those countless people who gave life to make it. There reason to make it was Islam and if people of Pakistan dont give it a thought then it is betrayal to those brave souls and they have to answer to Allah for that.
Secondly when we are talking about implementing Islam then we gotta understand that it is not a religion in the sense it is used in west. Islam is a deen . It is a way of life. It governs every aspect of your life which means you politics, criminal laws, social behavior, financial matters are all governed by it. Islam is not limited to praying 5 times and keeping fast. No it is much more than that.
Sometimes people put up so many rosy pictures about the situation in pakistan but I dread that it is getting worse and I fear the worse is yet to come.
Habibi
February 23, 2008 at 5:11 AM
I have seen two three categories of Pakistanis.
A. who think that Pakistan needs to be very strong to support Islam ( since its the only Muslim nation to carry Nuclear Bomb etc ), so stronger Pakistan implies Stronger Islam. Hence in order to make Pakistan stronger, if Pakistan needs to support USA against Iraq its OK , or against Afghanistan its OK too, since after all we are doing it to make Pakistan stronger ( Support, Aid, Ammunition , grants etc ). These few things are necessary sacrifices needed in the long run. They belive in compromises FOR Pakistan and planning etc. They put Pakistan before Islam.
B. Those who think that Its because of Islam that Pakistan was needed and hence came into existence ( the two nation theory ) and if Islam or Muslims are the price to make Pakistan strong or better etc, then whats the point of having Islam , its unacceptable. They put Islam before Pakistan.
C. Those who don’t care. These are not bothered if Islam came first or Pakistan or USA or anyone for that matter. All they care about , is themselves. For them Pakistan comes nowhere. In fact in their list come only I , Me and myself etc.
I think Pakistani and Imran are supporting ( if they are ) Mushrraf , cuase i think not only Musharraf but they as well belong to class A. Mushrraf because he spent all his life in Army and the ABC of any army is to brainwash its soldiers to put the country before anything else. And these two fellas are supporting Mushy because they might have seen the development in ( at least ) Karachi which no one seen before.
All the others who are debating these two persons are putting Islam first ( hence the debate about Lal Masjid etc).
I visited Karachi 1 month back and i saw development and change in the infrastructure and economy etc . Its not extraordinary but relatively speaking, in Karachi’s standards it was a LOT!
As for practicing Islam , well , for a”normal” Pakistani Islam usually comes in second or third priority , if at all. If you are young and you start going to Masjid regularly , your family and friends become worried for you ..what if you go for Jihad? If you pray in your house they label you to be Mulla etc. They make it sound like a negative thing.
The reason most of the people think that Lal Masjid incident was not a bad thing is because of the negative impression of religious leaders.
But going back to our religion, i think choosing among the less evil , i would support Musharraf. He might have sold his sold to devil , but he is still better than the rest.
Peace and Nihari grease :P
Pakistani
February 23, 2008 at 8:29 AM
Suhail said>> I was just saying that when it comes to fighting India pakistan’s army always fails but when it comes to its own people they bombard them like crazy while the Pakistani citizens are sleeping without any problem in there homes.
Dude, do u live on a little place I like to call earth?
Indian forces have always been 5 times greater than Pakistan. Please do some reading on war in 1948, and in this war who cried UNCLE(united nations)[I’ll make it easy for u, the country’s name begins with I].
In 1965 war who begged the UN to stop the war?
1971, we got our arse kicked on ground of bengali revolt, so no excuses there. Which countries troops are suffering most in the highest battlefield on the planet(Siachen)?
Who got their rear ends again kicked in Kargil?Yeah we had to pull out due to poor diplomacy, but seriously from where do you get the facts to make the above mentioned claim, you must be an Indian to make that claim. Anywhos,
contd..
Pakistani
February 23, 2008 at 8:33 AM
3. Who was saying Pakistan supported US aggression against IRAQ?, thats plain stupid remark and a big lie. Shame on you Mr Idiot for saying that.
Have some fear of Allah before you start lying just to make your point. Pakistan never supported US aggression against Iraq.
4. For the theory on types of Pakistanis, my friend there is only one fact known to Pakistanis(not a theory), Pakistan is a castle of Islam(castle of Islam title was given by I think it was Dr. Mahatir Muhammad of Malaysia), and if we want to help our brothers around the world, we need to strengthen our castle first.
Pakistani
February 23, 2008 at 8:40 AM
contd..
‘If you live in Pakistan you should have known’:
1. On Pakistan military academy(PMA)’s entrance there is an arabic enscription, Jihad Fi Sabilalah(I hope u know its meaning).
2. The masjids bombing u were refering to are by sectarian violances which are fanned and funded by the people of Alaqaii Gair(which includes waziristan and other notorious places), here the govt. law does not apply. Before 9/11, whenever somebody committed a big crime, like robbing banks, killing people , etc., they used to hide in these Alaqai Gair terrotories and proper shelter was bought by these criminals, they were a pain before, but because of an agreement with these terrotories at the time of partition in 1947, no action against them could be taken.
Pakistani
February 23, 2008 at 8:52 AM
.contd.After 9/11 things got heated. These tribal terrotories (some not all) started harbouring designs of mischef including armed robberies, looting banks, killing leaders of other sects inciding sectarian violence,etc. that had to end one way or the other.At the same time US was trying to bust taleban and their support in these regions , so our interested intersected, we are not fighting US war, we are fighting for our own survival.
Pakistani
February 23, 2008 at 8:54 AM
I am again haivng problems loading my comment all at once , so apologies again for bad editing. Anybody having a solution?…
Pakistani
February 23, 2008 at 9:04 AM
An after thought: Br. Imran, Pakistan was also created so that atrocities of Gujrat( Gujrat Muslim Hindu violence), do not take place.
Think about that when you start talking about two nation theory. Honestly there is no better validity of two nation theory than atrocities against muslim in India(Gujrat). I hope your education abroad made you abrest of this little fact.
Pakistani
February 23, 2008 at 9:14 AM
And Babri Masjid, you must have thought muslims destroyed it just during their terrorist training . I dont know why we behave like gold fishes, even they have better memories.
Maybe the books need to be regularly updated.:P
Habibi
February 23, 2008 at 2:34 PM
Couple of responses.
A. You say that Pakistan never supported war against Iraq ? Well, i am not sure but why do you think Pakistan is called the biggest Ally of US against war on Terror ? When US attacked Iraq ( first war against Iraq ), didn’t Pakistan sent its troops ? Perhaps my memory is weak.
B. You mentioned incidents where Hindus in India were fighting with Muslims. This is giving me the impression that Pakistan is a very peaceful country where people don’t fight. TO the best of my know knowledge a lot more than that happens in Pakistan. In Pakistan people forget they are Muslim or Brotherhood altogether, rather they remember their ethnic identities and then Fight over that. To me fighting a Non Muslim is better ( if at all ) than fighting a Muslim.
Pakistani
February 23, 2008 at 3:00 PM
1.In first Gulf war 1991, do u think Pakistan should have sided with Iraq, against Kuwait, Saudi Arabia. Do you think Pakistan should have sided with that crack Saddam killing and looting kuwait and it’s resources? Are you high? Honestly, do give me that answer? In my earlier post I was referring to
Gulf war II in which definately Iraq was victim.
2. That will be very naiive to say that in Pakistan people dont have problems with other people. We are not saints, but do tell me another thing, has anything of this magnitude ever happened to any Islamic sect in Pakistan, or any hindu or Christian?;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence
Ya Habibi, I wait anxiously for your reply.
Nasir Muzaffar
February 23, 2008 at 5:00 PM
brother Amad I read a few of your posts.
Which part of Pakistan are you from ?
I am from Karachi.
Amad
February 23, 2008 at 5:33 PM
Lahore, and I was going to mention this as well- that where you are from pakistan probably makes a big difference in your perspective. I think punjabis are far less forgiving of mushi than sindhis, esp since the lal masjid slaughter occurred in the heartland of punjab.
Also reflected in some of the election results. Not too different from bush’s popularity in Utah/texas vs in NY/CA.
imran khan
February 23, 2008 at 5:41 PM
Brother suhail
Yes Pakistan is not Jinnah private estate. But you cant deny the facts I have quoted above! Where were mullah’s when he said those thing?? my hearts bleed with you BUT I accept that betrayal and ppl in PAK are coming to this conclusion.
imran khan
February 23, 2008 at 5:46 PM
To Pakistani, …”An after thought: Br. Imran, Pakistan was also created so that atrocities of Gujrat( Gujrat Muslim Hindu violence), do not take place….
.Read my post. Brother THE two Nation Theory DROWNED in Bay of Bengal in 1971!!
Recently, the Government of Pakistan decided to revise history textbooks with a new interpretation of the Two-Nation theory, giving a moderate and less biased interpretation of the theory. An editorial in Pakistani daily Dawn remarked that this “honest” attempt was “long overdue” and that after “1971, when Bangladesh was born, the two-nation theory receded into the background as it lost its rationale.”
imran khan
February 23, 2008 at 5:57 PM
Habibi: I don’t support Mushy. Cant stand him. I am not putting Islam or Pakistan first. If you read my post all I have done is quoted you fact to support my argument that people have been feed pokies thro the education in Pakistan.
) i recommend that you read British history, and pay attention to The English Civil War
4) Execution of King Charles I is the foundation of parliamentarian democracy. And for a long period of time the parliament was NOT perfect, only the landlord could stand up for parliament etc etc .
Pakistani
February 23, 2008 at 6:45 PM
I have to admit I have not read the ‘new’ text books describing two nation theory(if there are some changes regarding that). But I really dont believe that it would be in govt. of Pakistan text book board’s book that it drowned after 1971, but I am sure it must be in some Pakistan studies book from oxford. So cant really comment on the new text book part.
Well as I know the “old” one, I refer to it, please correct me according to the “new” one(as if there should be one), so, two nation theory sez due to many un avoidable and clashing religious reasons, the people of two nation cannot stick together. Is that right? or there are changes in there too?
Pakistani
February 23, 2008 at 7:59 PM
It goes more specific than that, it doesnot say two nations but Muslims and Hindus, thus Gujrat massacre,Babri mosque ,1947 etc. Hindus worship cow, we eat it, ;they think Muhammad bin Qasim was a dacoit we regard him as hero, so are these things changed, i.e. hindus start eating cow or we have started worshipping cow, burning widows, having deeprooted caste system, untouchables. If not, then my friend, the theory is the same, but people wanting to see something other than the truth, are not the same.
Hell those guys in India cant even tolerate other minorities like christian and sikhs.
And FIY, if you live in Pakistan you should have known that the reason of separation was not two nation theory but a known fact at the time of partition that if we dont have intermarriages between east and west Pakistanis, our union would not last. If two nation theory was incorrect then why didnt Bangladesh assimalate into India?Imran do reply to that Q. Any Bengalis out there, please comment.
And dude, what you refer to dawn news, It must have been an editorial by an author expressing his own views on the matter not a hard core fact that you are trying to portray, as dawn is for Pakistan what Quran is for muslims, this is not the case.
vindicated
February 24, 2008 at 3:46 AM
I think anyone here can not, and should not pass final verdicts about anyone. However gruesome the crimes committed by some men may seem to be.
Musharraf may have made many mistakes in his era, but to say that he has done ‘nothing’ but increase fawahish is a bit of an overstatement in my opinion. I live in Karachi, and agree with the comment that the developement work done here is such that has never been seen by Karachii’tes before.
Br. Amad, you may have asked a lot of people for their opinion when you were last here, and they may have commented rightly too, as the truth remains that the life of the common man is indeed still miserable, but i think your comments also portray a personal bias against musharraf.
One thing that we Pakistanis in general (including me) lack is a bit of patience. 6 or 7 years ago, everyone was jubilant about the way musharraf had ‘turned things around’ etc etc, and now they’re all after his throat. Even if we get ‘rid’ of musharraf soon as some people here desire, that won’t really solve anything. I don’t see the present setup here doing any better, with, or without musharraf.
In fact, however bad the progress may have been previously, the faces that we see currently don’t really inspire a lot of confidence. They’re faces that have been there, and done that, and failed miserably.
I would also like to agree that democracy can only prevail in places where the people are truly aware what a democratic process means, not in a region where democratic parties are much like old watches- passed on from father to son. Not in a region where the people are so divided that they can not think outside the geographical boundaries that separate them. Broadly speaking, the Sindhi still votes for the Sindhi, the Punjabi for the Punjabi, and so forth.
In these troubling times, what is required is a strong leader who can take charge, and make decisions of utmost importance promptly- whether the people like it or not. That man is not Musharraf, that man is not Zardari, and that man is not Nawaz Sharif or any other person on the political horizon. Indeed, the political parties themselves can not decide who will lead them in the parliament, and need to hold multiple meetings for merely that. That is solid proof that Pakistan is quite short of leaders at the moment.
Where that leader will come from, no one can guess. We can just pray to Allah SWT to give us a leader who can lead with justice, and with hikmah, and lead Pakistan out of this terrible abyss Insha’Allah.
imran khan
February 24, 2008 at 12:54 PM
To Pakistani …2” Imran do reply to”….
I will make it simple..
1) The bases of Two Nation theory was that a country will be separated into two parts based on religion. Muslim majority new state PAK (east/west wing). BUT in 1971 they split again!!! Yes you see a country created on the basis of religion split not on religious ground. SO bang goes another theory.
I welcome different opinion and I will defend people’s right to have different opinion and I can also agree to disagree. However with regards to Two nation theory I can,’t make it any more simpler….
Nasir Muzaffar
February 24, 2008 at 4:53 PM
Thanks for the info brother Amad.
Anyways which part of the US are you are living currently ?
Pakistani
February 25, 2008 at 5:40 AM
Salam,Well I cant say I am surprised; readers plz check this link out;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Nation_Theory
Oddly wikipedia and Br. Imran’s comments agree with one another to a very large extent,open the above link and scroll down a bit ,in the section ‘creation of bangladesh’,hmmmmmm.
When plagarizing, try reading all of the article, in this case the top most lines will give you your real definition, so kindly dont try to mislead people by your ‘simple’ views.
Two nation theory as you can read from the above provided link, applies to Hindus and Muslims , and in it , it says nowhere that this is the ‘only’ reason why separation between people of a country should occur. If you look at arabia they are more than one state, one can argue two nation theory also fails there.
My neem hakim friend, two nation theory only sez that hindu and muslims cant live together, period. One can again argue that they lived together in mogul age,yes, then the muslims were rulers and ruled their population fairly. Now in a ‘democracy’in free india hindus will be rulers and their antics before partition showed that they will not be treating muslim minority like regular citizens.
That’s two nation theory and bangladesh has nothing to do with it. NOthing more nothing less.
…contd
Pakistani
February 25, 2008 at 5:57 AM
Its completely our fault, the people here in Pakistan for remaining quiet on these absurdities. I again apologize. Here’s another link
http://www.countercurrents.org/gujarat-reddy100504.htm
To readers who dont consider themselves simplistic;
http://www.storyofpakistan.com/contribute.asp?artid=C031&Pg=3
http://www.country-studies.com/pakistan/the-two-nations-theory.html
Amad
February 25, 2008 at 10:01 AM
Pakistani: a couple of points:
1) If your comment doesn’t show up, it probably means it has gotten stuck in spam. Don’t keep repeating it, because they will keep going there. We regularly check the spam folder and will recover your comments.
2) Please refrain from personal attacks and comments. Calling someone idiot or ignorant or other kindergarten-style name-calling doesn’t add any weight to your arguments and makes you look childish.
thanks.
Pakistani
February 25, 2008 at 11:00 AM
Look whos talking, a guy who doesnt even know his own country’s name, now thats childish, and a big disgrace
Amad
February 25, 2008 at 11:07 AM
Pakistani, if a small joke is the biggest disgrace that you have come across, then you really don’t have a clue what disgraces are befalling Pakistan everyday, starting with our Bushi president, and ending with all of the lota politicians of PPP and PML.
Today, I was hearing an excellent report on NPR about the state of public education in Pakistan. You know friend, that indeed is our country’s biggest disgrace.
Suhail
February 25, 2008 at 11:33 AM
Brother Pakistani,
Your addressing people with childish and personal remarks is not going to get things anywhere. If you are really interested in presenting your point of view go ahead and present it but please refrain from the above remarks.
Anyways regarding your saying that Pakistani army has done this and that i would point out few things that very few armies have done to there own people.
1) The genocide of bengalis : It is amazing how some pakistanis hate bengalis because they seperated from Pakistan but they never see what was the problem. People who hold truth dear whether Pakistani or not always admit the mistake and genocide Pakistan did in bengal. I have met bengali muslim brothers who were kids during that time and when they relate things that happened to them and there immediate families, the suffering they went thru you can seem to think that what was the people of Pakistan doing when muslims where being slaughtered in east pakistan. I agree with Brother Imran.
2) When you talk about atrocities on muslims in India what do you expect the hindus are gonna give the muslims , Roses. There killing and oppressing of muslims is still what you would expect from a kuffar but what about Pakistani army who are muslims bombing Lal masjid and FATA, waziristan. That in my eyes is the worst of crimes. Indian army is composed of hindus , india is hindu majority and thus i dont expect roses handed out from them to muslims but i would never ever expect muslims to kill there own brother and sister which Pakistan army does with immunity. The historical precedent cannot be refuted.
3) I am not interested in debating that muslims should have made Pakistan or not because Pakistan is a REALITY. So rather than wasting time on a fruitless talk we should use our energy on talking of the future. My only rational about my initial post was that people when talking about Pakistan forget that the aim of the Masses (not leaders) was to make a place where Islam would be supreme. Where justice would be served and Allahs law will be applied but it has come to a juncture where its army is killing its own people, leaders are eating up the wealth of the nation, honor of the nation is sold for measly gains and the masses of Pakistan is not rising up from there slumber. I am just afraid that when they do rise it may be too late for Pakistan but i pray to Allah that it doesn’t come to this. May Allah shower its mercy on the muslims and help them in this troubled times Ameen.
Irum Sarfaraz
February 25, 2008 at 11:46 AM
Br. Pakistani
I understand your emotional state as it is not uncommon for people living in Pakistan to be highly contemptuous of the ones living abroad as they feel that we are ‘looking down’ on the ones living in Pakistan and ‘tend talk to them as if they don’t know anything’. You need to change your mindset as that is not the case at all. If it was true we would not have this blog, we would not talk about Pakistan at all and we would not be trying to figure out why things go awry in Pakistan. The first rule of intelligent debate is respect for each other and you are overstepping your boundaries for everyone who is living abroad and taking part in this discussion.
The point I was trying to make by writing this post was that Pakistan will never be good for Pakistanis unless it realizes the tactics of America which has no interest in whether or not democracy prevails or flourishes for the good of the people. Any democracy in any third world country is only the democracy that is defined by the USA and that is solely a democracy that will serve its interests in the region in the long run. Since Pakistan is also a nuclear state, it is even more critical for the US to make sure that the visions of Pakistani leaders tally exactly with the visions of the US. A leader who follows the USA plan like a trained pet, such as Musharaff, will never be sincerely good towards the people in Pakistan. The damage that Musharaff’s secular democracy has rendered to the society in general is heartbreaking and irreversible. I can go into the details here but I will save it for a post as I believe it needs to be discussed.
Jinnah had not gotten the Muslims away from the angrez simply for putting it back into their hands SHOULD need arise. Putting aside all his reasons, I still refuse to believe he would ever willingly comprise the sovereignty of the country we all treasure, whether we live beyond or within its borders, as it was being [or might still continue to be] compromised in the name of democracy by our policiitcians. I hope we will all at least agree on that point.
Irum Sarfaraz
February 25, 2008 at 12:20 PM
By the way I have been saying ‘Pakiland’ for years and my friends have started to copy me now. The reason is not to make fun of or ridicule the country but is used as a term of endearment or a ‘sweet nothing’. It is like one calls their child my billi or my pari etc. etc. We know our child’s name. We just call them that lovingly.
Pakistani
February 25, 2008 at 12:22 PM
Salam, Sarfraz, I agree with your point 3, but the issue of existance of Pakistan was not brought up by me, and I felt obligated to respond to the misinformation being propagated.
On points 1 and 2, plz refer to my earlier comments, and on 1971, I clearly said, no excuses there. And lal masjid and all have been commented on by me before. So read them again. After 3 major wars and 2 big skirmishes, you made your generalization based on just one. Be honest with yourself, was that prudent and called for?…….contd..
Pakistani
February 25, 2008 at 12:29 PM
Genious said;
>> if a small joke is the biggest disgrace that you have come across, then you really don’t have a clue what disgraces are befalling Pakistan everyday
It is a small joke for a person who is neither a Pakistani nor british( or whatever), and is confused about his identity.
If you had any dignity left you would have taken your comments back, instead of saying;
I was just joking. Poor show.
Pakistani
February 25, 2008 at 12:40 PM
Sr. Irum,
Pakistan elections, different name and same old players,… was a good article.
And on looking down on you guys, there is a saying :never critisize a man unless you walk 1 mile in his shoes. Pakistan’s situation is very fluid and the shoes change from time to time. Plz do critisize but by having the full information (preferrably by people first hand) and not that I read it there and there. Pakistan is extremely misrepresented and saying things like Pakistan couldnt do anything about Indian army, rediculing the very name of our country etc. If you being Pakistanis do that, then what will the rest of the world will do?Yes Irum, I am sure you were given pet names by your parents etc. but do tell me, did you call you father or mother with pet names? And does our motherland/fatherland derserve any less?… Meeri Jan this is called respect. Learn it.
Suhail
February 25, 2008 at 4:00 PM
You need to learn respect and how to address people in respectful way. If you would have then you would have known how to talk to a Muslim sister.
“Meeri Jan this is called respect” This is how you talk to your muslim sister. Have some fear and taqwa of Allah(SWT). You really need a good spanking and a lesson in mannerism. You are just a waste of time.
imran khan
February 25, 2008 at 9:29 PM
Br Pakistani;
1) …“ If you look at arabia they are more than one state, one can argue two nation theory also fails there.”…
Yes if Islam was enough to keep them together then why did the split???
2)…“My neem hakim friend”…. I let you off mate, you can ridicule me but that is no substitute for argument based of facts
3)…”That’s two nation theory and bangladesh has nothing to do with it. NOthing more nothing less.”…
Let me try again in very simple English. Here we go. Two nation theory, NATION ONE= Muslim majority Pakistan NATION TWO= All religion but Hindu Majority India
NATION ONE=in 1971 Pakistan Split in to Pakistan and Bangladesh (NOT on religious grounds this time) = ISLAM want enough to keep them together
Bang goes that Theory.
But I would like to say to you br I can agree to disagree. Can you???
imran khan
February 25, 2008 at 9:32 PM
Pakistani;
1) …“ “Meeri Jan this is called respect”
Now that is below the belt mate! Rather below the ankle I must say. Learn to agree to disagree in a debate.
me
February 26, 2008 at 3:24 AM
pakistan zindabad! india murdabad!:)
Pakistani
February 26, 2008 at 3:28 AM
You too mate. So if out of pure sisterly love I call her Meeri Jan, its bad, but out of love(I dont know of what kind) you call Pakistan ,Paki—- it’s fine?….(I rest my case)
Maybe because you dont love Pakistan that much to care what it is being called. I can completely understand and agree on that.
I wont waste my time on explaining two nation theory to you Imran, I have provided links and reasons to prove my point, and all you are doing is trying to make your own two nation theory, good luck on that.
Pakistani
February 26, 2008 at 3:42 AM
And by the way you’ll let me off by calling you neem hakim but you so conviniently failed to mention something else which is far more serious than being called mere neem hakim(half doctor) …interesting ,I implied plagarizer/cheater. Your silence is understandable. Start using your own brain Imran, plz for God sakes start, it wont get wasted like that, I promise.
Habibi
February 26, 2008 at 5:05 AM
i think this debate or discussion is becoming waste of time and energy for all of us. We should not waste time on things we can do nothing about. We should specially avoid discussions which instead of providing any good make us think bad or negative about our own brothers/sisters . I am sure the intention of Imrar , Pakistani or anyone else was pure and that it was out of anger or some other momentary force that made us do that and no one means what they might have said that hurted others. So please end this discussion where Satan is getting hold of us. As the Prophet (PBUH) said Afshus salaam wama bainakum ( please correct me ) . And i say again
Peace and Ras Gulla’s grease. :)
imran khan
February 26, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Habib: Thanks
Pakistani:. We have different opining and I can agree to disagree with.
The issue is not what is be discussed rather the manner of discussion. It remind s of “debates” on Geo TV. (if you can call it a debates) Personal attack is not a good method. But it is not your Fault I am Not blaming you. Unfortunately I am more use to Debates such as Question time http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/question_time/default.stm
Or Radio 4
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/religion/moralmaze.shtml http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/talkingpolitics.shtml
So clearly its is my fault.
P.S my last post on this thread
Pakistani
February 27, 2008 at 12:18 PM
Salam, Its been a while that I have watched tv( and sorry I am no fan of geo, mainly net is my source of info), so I cant comment on the debates.
P.S. Your last post should have been the one in which I caught you plagarizing.anywhos..
I salute your dhetai(stubborness).
Ilyas khan BalochI
April 24, 2008 at 10:17 AM
Dear Sir/Madam,
An open invitation to all patriotic people of Pakistan, including women, youth, labourer,farmers intellectual and god feared person, nationalist and progressive people and media, to come forward , read, under stand and decide ,why should Pakistani join the Islamic Democratic party and take the rain of leadership in their hands for the Socio-political change in Pakistan
Explanation of the IDP programmed for the change of socio-political system.
Q.1. Why one more new party, in present of many parties in Pakistan?
Q.2. Why the IDP wants the Decentralization of power at grass route level, how it works?
Q.3 How, the elected member of the council and organization within the division will be make answerable?
Q 4.How the divisional council will provide basic guarantee?
Q.5. How the IDP will look at the law and order and educational need together with student’s union activities?
Q.6 How the IDP will guarantee protection of women’s right and equal opportunity in job and education?
Q.7. How the IDP inclined, encourage and develop youth force for the benefit of society?
And more on here…
See http://www.idp.org.pk
Ilyas khan Baloch
Organizer
Islamic Democratic Party
Comment truncated as it was too long. More information is on the link provided -MM
Ilyas khan baloch
May 3, 2008 at 9:37 AM
Dear Sir/Madam,
Is the democracy in Pakistan for the Pakistani……..?
Dare to raise your voice to empower the Pakistani – the country belongs to.
Pakistan is passing through a crucial time and is in imminent need for change of system, instead of change of faces, let the people of Pakistan the country belongs to be the real stack holder and empower them to decide the fate of their generation.
Since the creation of Pakistan the Pakistani people are left at distant from the corridor of power so that the ruling elite can do what they wanted to do in favour of their interest, leaving the Pakistani people at the mercy of circumstances. As this policy is denial of right of Pakistani people to rule their country according to their aspiration and desire to built this country, which can provide equal opportunity to all without any discrimination for the establishment of welfare society. Only the society base on tolerance, equality and justice can be the real guarantee for the prosperous and strong Pakistan there for your intention is invited to the crucial movement which could be the point of distraction or disaster.
since last 60 years no one has dare to trust the Pakistani people and involved them in to the day to day decision making process with intention to develop a sense of participation and responsibilities. These, decision making process affecting the future of their country and their generation at large and could share the real benefit of democracy,
But due to the calculated and intelligent manipulation of situation wherein the organized behavior, deprivation the opinions of the masses which being an important element within democratic society are distracted and manipulated, because , these elements, within the society would not allow the ruling elites to,, constitute and strengthen the invisible government, which is responsible to protect the interest of ruler.
As we are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes are formed, and our ideas suggested largely by a person, we have never heard of or seen. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of masses beings force to cooperate in this track, if they are to live together as a so-called smoothly functioning society.
Whatever approach, one chooses to take toward these condition, it remains a fact that in almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of people, who understand the submissive attitude and social patterns of the general public. They pull the wires which control the public mind, they exploit old social forces and engineer new ways to bind and protect their personal interest with outside forces.
Sometimes the negative consequence in the society is being fabricated by the professional propagandist or sometimes by the layperson deputed for that situation, they pose the politics is a dirty and corrupt game of prosperous and rich therefore honest and poor should keep away from political activities.
The important thing is that it is common and constant; to control the public mind bit by bit, as much possible to keep the masses away from the corridor of power. The systematic study of mass psychology, revealed to the ruling elite, the potentialities for manipulation of the society by actuate man, So the question naturally arise, If we understand the mechanism and motives of the ruling elite and the way they practice, mingle has proved that it is possible for us to initiate at least up to a certain extent, we can introduce the alternate socio-political system to the masses to replace the present democratic system which is destined for the feudal.
No one believes any longer that the voice of the people expresses, or any divine or especially wise and lofty idea, could have been stop. The honest voice of the people, regarding the system will affect the heart and mind of the peoples, and that mind once made up for it by the mass, people, taking responsibility for the change of system will succeed in creating public opinion.
The certainty of getting elected to the office or the problem of interpreting and popularizing new ideas, or the problem of making the day-to-day administration of public relation might be look difficult, but not impossible.
We have already lost the major part of Pakistan in 1971 simply to save the centralised sole power to exploit this country by the ruling elite they let the country break in part then allowing the masses to rule this country democratically. In the present circumstances we are again dragging our sovereignty at stack for the external interest in the name of national interest, instead of our interest i.e. the interest of Pakistani people at large.
The only way out of these crucial circumstances is to empower the common Pakistani at grass route level i.e. the change of system. This change is inevitable for the prosperous Pakistan .As a citizen of this country I have try to provide an alternate socio-political system to empower the masses at grass route level for rapid industrial and agriculture development with transparency and accountability in the system. Along with basic guarantees for the creation of welfare state, where in public representative and institution shall be answerable and accountable to the masses.
Kindly see web site….www.idp.org.pk
Kindly acknowledge with your comments.
Ilyas khan Baloch (Organizer Islamic Democratic Party)