75% population of Pakistan is illiterate and out of those 25% who are literate are mainly primary pass people. Democracy is a good system but it assumes the population can make a sound and “educated” decision about their future. As you can see,…this is not the case here. The election of the corrupt and stupid leaders time and again in the 1990s proves this and even now.
Our best bet was and is Pres. Musharaff. I cant think of another leader in the world as dynamic and profilic as him right now, please if u think there is one do tell.
On being controlled by US, which muslim country apart from Iran is not influenced by US. Unlike most muslim countries Pakistan under Musharaf has held it’s own Alhamdullilah after 9/11,when we were facing total anhilation. We can still maintain our heads high unlike some( Libyians on nuclear issue) who sold Pakistan out just to save their own behinds.

LOL now i see how can General Busharraf can sit over pakistan and kill fellow muslims with impunity. When you have supporter of busharraf like our brother Pakistani you dont need US or any other enemy to do anything.

Sigh pakistan will remain a failed state until people dont realize why they made the state to begin with and its goals. If Pakistan was meant to be a secular state why the heck do you need to have a partition and then that two nation theory doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

Pakistani, if Musharaff is abhorred by the people it is because he sold his soul to the devil and the pride and dignity of Pakistan along with it. If the now elected leaders are ‘corrupt and stupid’, what is Musharaff?? As a Muslim nation, our heads are not ‘high’ post 9/11, they are bent in shame. If there is a nation that is refusing to oblige to tyranny of the first order, it is Iran and if there is a Muslim nation that deserves to be proud, it is Iran.

You are right br. Amad. Nawaz better watch his ‘head’ !!! If you know what I mean.

Salam,
Well the ‘visits’ to Pakistan must really give you a total insight into the psyche of the people here, even better than those who have lived all the events this country has gone through. You are real geniouses. *EDITED*

They were baracaded inside with astounding amount of ammo, judges came, even ministers came and pleaded them for the sake of the children inside to giveup,but they didnt, wanting total immunity. ….contd…

Total immunity could not be allowed by any government in the world including US which does not negotiate with terrorist. Keeping in mind the safety of children operation was carrried out, just due to this many elite commandoes lost their lives.

P.s, sorry my reply was long and the browser was not loading it all at once so I had to break it down. Sorry for Bad editing.

Brother you are a case of typical nationalist. The so called crimes of Lal Masjid people was not that great to bomb the hell out of them. When Pakistani army gets into real fight they surrender everytime to india but they are so brave in fighting there own people.

Forget Lal Masjid what about Fata and Waziristan. Shame on you if you agree with his bombing his own people.

The Pakistani people like you are to be blamed what is happening in the country made to be a place for Islamic revival . Where is Islam in that country? It is ruled by landlords, corrupt politicians and secular elite.

You and others who are supporter of this corrupt government apparatus are to be blamed because it is one thing to be silent and not with the oppressor but you are in the bed with the oppressor aka there supporter and thus a oppressor too. There main goal is promoting lewdness and immorality, making Pakistan a secular democracy with you as a supporter. May Allah humiliate all who oppress and support the oppressor.

Here here

Assalam Alykum,

Brother Imran I am not making the point of who is getting elected and how does that affect the Pakistani Policy.

First of all there are few things that needs to be answered.

1) Pakistan was seperated from India on the ground of two nation theory. The theory was that Muslims because of there religion had a totally different identity than the majority hindus and thus cannot coexist together in a same country/society. The cause of the partition was Islam. If you remove Islam from the discussion then there was no reason to form Pakistan at all.

2) Jinnah in all his speech and other people who were supporting the cause of Pakistan mentioned at every juncture the threat to Islam in united India and how the muslims of India can save there religion in a new country based on Islamic principle and shariah.

3) Muslims in united India attached themselves to the cause of Pakistan because it was a cause for ISLAM. They wanted a land where they can practice there religion in every sector of life be it politics, social, or anyother place.

4) If pakistan was meant to be a secular democracy then there was no reason that muslims at that time would have given there blood and wealth for the cause because they would have gotten the same thing in India with some problems from the hindus. The reason they gave everything they have was because they wanted a state ruled by Islam. It is evident if we read the history of partition.

5) There is no comparison of Pakistan and India. The goals of these two nations are different. Pakistan means land of the pure which was the goal of the normal people who gave there life and wealth for it. Its goal was to establish Islam on that piece of land and live by it in every facet of life be it politics , social, or financial level. India on the other hand is a secular entity which doesn’t believe in Islam so comparison to it is not fair and absurd. So i am not comparing it. I was just saying that when it comes to fighting India pakistan’s army always fails but when it comes to its own people they bombard them like crazy while the Pakistani citizens are sleeping without any problem in there homes.
My dear brothers remember what Rasullah(SAW) said that if a muslim gets hurt the other feels the pain which means that if you dont help you muslim brethren in problems then nobody will help you when those same predators are going to eat you.
So if you remain silent at all the injustice being carried out in your name by the government against the fellow muslims be sure that the wrath of Allah will come upon you too because Allah always punishes the oppressor if not in this world then in the hereafter inshallah.

Now i ask you two brothers that where has pakistan come after these 50 years. I dont even see a sign of Islam being implemented at any level in Pakistan. Secular elite is increasing in power with educated secular people running the show. The masajids are being bombed which is a henious act.

I don’t care how democracy work or what PML and PPP will do. Pakistan is the result of blood and wealth of countless muslims because they wanted to make Islam the highest authority in pakistan. They never thought that it would come to this juncture where secular generals and corrupt politicians are running the show.

The problem is the apathy of Pakistani people and the disease of nationalism, sectarinism making hold in there hearts. The society itself is becoming corrupt. Illiteracy and poverty is not an excuse for people being ignorant of there Islamic duties. Sahabah were illiterate and poor but they were very concious about there duty to Allah(SWT) so that is not even an excuse.

What i am saying is that the situation of Pakistan is not going to change till the people i mean the layman of Pakistan doesn’t start practicing the religion of Islam in its entirety. The leaders that you get are the mirror of society since they came from within the society. I mean Busharraf, Zardari, Benazir, Nawaz they are all a product of pakistani society not some aliens.

Brother Imran I agree with you on most point but the point being the Pakistan is not a private estate of Jinnah but it is the result of those countless people who gave life to make it. There reason to make it was Islam and if people of Pakistan dont give it a thought then it is betrayal to those brave souls and they have to answer to Allah for that.

Secondly when we are talking about implementing Islam then we gotta understand that it is not a religion in the sense it is used in west. Islam is a deen . It is a way of life. It governs every aspect of your life which means you politics, criminal laws, social behavior, financial matters are all governed by it. Islam is not limited to praying 5 times and keeping fast. No it is much more than that.

Sometimes people put up so many rosy pictures about the situation in pakistan but I dread that it is getting worse and I fear the worse is yet to come.

Suhail said>> I was just saying that when it comes to fighting India pakistan’s army always fails but when it comes to its own people they bombard them like crazy while the Pakistani citizens are sleeping without any problem in there homes.

Dude, do u live on a little place I like to call earth?
Indian forces have always been 5 times greater than Pakistan. Please do some reading on war in 1948, and in this war who cried UNCLE(united nations)[I'll make it easy for u, the country's name begins with I].
In 1965 war who begged the UN to stop the war?
1971, we got our arse kicked on ground of bengali revolt, so no excuses there. Which countries troops are suffering most in the highest battlefield on the planet(Siachen)?
Who got their rear ends again kicked in Kargil?Yeah we had to pull out due to poor diplomacy, but seriously from where do you get the facts to make the above mentioned claim, you must be an Indian to make that claim. Anywhos,
contd..

contd..
‘If you live in Pakistan you should have known’:

1. On Pakistan military academy(PMA)’s entrance there is an arabic enscription, Jihad Fi Sabilalah(I hope u know its meaning).
2. The masjids bombing u were refering to are by sectarian violances which are fanned and funded by the people of Alaqaii Gair(which includes waziristan and other notorious places), here the govt. law does not apply. Before 9/11, whenever somebody committed a big crime, like robbing banks, killing people , etc., they used to hide in these Alaqai Gair terrotories and proper shelter was bought by these criminals, they were a pain before, but because of an agreement with these terrotories at the time of partition in 1947, no action against them could be taken.

I am again haivng problems loading my comment all at once , so apologies again for bad editing. Anybody having a solution?…

And Babri Masjid, you must have thought muslims destroyed it just during their terrorist training . I dont know why we behave like gold fishes, even they have better memories.
Maybe the books need to be regularly updated.:P

1.In first Gulf war 1991, do u think Pakistan should have sided with Iraq, against Kuwait, Saudi Arabia. Do you think Pakistan should have sided with that crack Saddam killing and looting kuwait and it’s resources? Are you high? Honestly, do give me that answer? In my earlier post I was referring to
Gulf war II in which definately Iraq was victim.
2. That will be very naiive to say that in Pakistan people dont have problems with other people. We are not saints, but do tell me another thing, has anything of this magnitude ever happened to any Islamic sect in Pakistan, or any hindu or Christian?;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence
Ya Habibi, I wait anxiously for your reply.

To Pakistani, …”An after thought: Br. Imran, Pakistan was also created so that atrocities of Gujrat( Gujrat Muslim Hindu violence), do not take place….
.Read my post. Brother THE two Nation Theory DROWNED in Bay of Bengal in 1971!!
Recently, the Government of Pakistan decided to revise history textbooks with a new interpretation of the Two-Nation theory, giving a moderate and less biased interpretation of the theory. An editorial in Pakistani daily Dawn remarked that this “honest” attempt was “long overdue” and that after “1971, when Bangladesh was born, the two-nation theory receded into the background as it lost its rationale.”

I have to admit I have not read the ‘new’ text books describing two nation theory(if there are some changes regarding that). But I really dont believe that it would be in govt. of Pakistan text book board’s book that it drowned after 1971, but I am sure it must be in some Pakistan studies book from oxford. So cant really comment on the new text book part.
Well as I know the “old” one, I refer to it, please correct me according to the “new” one(as if there should be one), so, two nation theory sez due to many un avoidable and clashing religious reasons, the people of two nation cannot stick together. Is that right? or there are changes in there too?

I think anyone here can not, and should not pass final verdicts about anyone. However gruesome the crimes committed by some men may seem to be.

Musharraf may have made many mistakes in his era, but to say that he has done ‘nothing’ but increase fawahish is a bit of an overstatement in my opinion. I live in Karachi, and agree with the comment that the developement work done here is such that has never been seen by Karachii’tes before.

Br. Amad, you may have asked a lot of people for their opinion when you were last here, and they may have commented rightly too, as the truth remains that the life of the common man is indeed still miserable, but i think your comments also portray a personal bias against musharraf.

One thing that we Pakistanis in general (including me) lack is a bit of patience. 6 or 7 years ago, everyone was jubilant about the way musharraf had ‘turned things around’ etc etc, and now they’re all after his throat. Even if we get ‘rid’ of musharraf soon as some people here desire, that won’t really solve anything. I don’t see the present setup here doing any better, with, or without musharraf.

In fact, however bad the progress may have been previously, the faces that we see currently don’t really inspire a lot of confidence. They’re faces that have been there, and done that, and failed miserably.

I would also like to agree that democracy can only prevail in places where the people are truly aware what a democratic process means, not in a region where democratic parties are much like old watches- passed on from father to son. Not in a region where the people are so divided that they can not think outside the geographical boundaries that separate them. Broadly speaking, the Sindhi still votes for the Sindhi, the Punjabi for the Punjabi, and so forth.

In these troubling times, what is required is a strong leader who can take charge, and make decisions of utmost importance promptly- whether the people like it or not. That man is not Musharraf, that man is not Zardari, and that man is not Nawaz Sharif or any other person on the political horizon. Indeed, the political parties themselves can not decide who will lead them in the parliament, and need to hold multiple meetings for merely that. That is solid proof that Pakistan is quite short of leaders at the moment.

Where that leader will come from, no one can guess. We can just pray to Allah SWT to give us a leader who can lead with justice, and with hikmah, and lead Pakistan out of this terrible abyss Insha’Allah.

Thanks for the info brother Amad.

Anyways which part of the US are you are living currently ?

Its completely our fault, the people here in Pakistan for remaining quiet on these absurdities. I again apologize. Here’s another link
http://www.countercurrents.org/gujarat-reddy100504.htm
To readers who dont consider themselves simplistic;
http://www.storyofpakistan.com/contribute.asp?artid=C031&Pg=3
http://www.country-studies.com/pakistan/the-two-nations-theory.html

Look whos talking, a guy who doesnt even know his own country’s name, now thats childish, and a big disgrace

Brother Pakistani,

Your addressing people with childish and personal remarks is not going to get things anywhere. If you are really interested in presenting your point of view go ahead and present it but please refrain from the above remarks.

Anyways regarding your saying that Pakistani army has done this and that i would point out few things that very few armies have done to there own people.

1) The genocide of bengalis : It is amazing how some pakistanis hate bengalis because they seperated from Pakistan but they never see what was the problem. People who hold truth dear whether Pakistani or not always admit the mistake and genocide Pakistan did in bengal. I have met bengali muslim brothers who were kids during that time and when they relate things that happened to them and there immediate families, the suffering they went thru you can seem to think that what was the people of Pakistan doing when muslims where being slaughtered in east pakistan. I agree with Brother Imran.

2) When you talk about atrocities on muslims in India what do you expect the hindus are gonna give the muslims , Roses. There killing and oppressing of muslims is still what you would expect from a kuffar but what about Pakistani army who are muslims bombing Lal masjid and FATA, waziristan. That in my eyes is the worst of crimes. Indian army is composed of hindus , india is hindu majority and thus i dont expect roses handed out from them to muslims but i would never ever expect muslims to kill there own brother and sister which Pakistan army does with immunity. The historical precedent cannot be refuted.

3) I am not interested in debating that muslims should have made Pakistan or not because Pakistan is a REALITY. So rather than wasting time on a fruitless talk we should use our energy on talking of the future. My only rational about my initial post was that people when talking about Pakistan forget that the aim of the Masses (not leaders) was to make a place where Islam would be supreme. Where justice would be served and Allahs law will be applied but it has come to a juncture where its army is killing its own people, leaders are eating up the wealth of the nation, honor of the nation is sold for measly gains and the masses of Pakistan is not rising up from there slumber. I am just afraid that when they do rise it may be too late for Pakistan but i pray to Allah that it doesn’t come to this. May Allah shower its mercy on the muslims and help them in this troubled times Ameen.

By the way I have been saying ‘Pakiland’ for years and my friends have started to copy me now. The reason is not to make fun of or ridicule the country but is used as a term of endearment or a ‘sweet nothing’. It is like one calls their child my billi or my pari etc. etc. We know our child’s name. We just call them that lovingly.

Genious said;
>> if a small joke is the biggest disgrace that you have come across, then you really don’t have a clue what disgraces are befalling Pakistan everyday
It is a small joke for a person who is neither a Pakistani nor british( or whatever), and is confused about his identity.
If you had any dignity left you would have taken your comments back, instead of saying;
I was just joking. Poor show.

You need to learn respect and how to address people in respectful way. If you would have then you would have known how to talk to a Muslim sister.

“Meeri Jan this is called respect” This is how you talk to your muslim sister. Have some fear and taqwa of Allah(SWT). You really need a good spanking and a lesson in mannerism. You are just a waste of time.

Pakistani;
1) …“ “Meeri Jan this is called respect”
Now that is below the belt mate! Rather below the ankle I must say. Learn to agree to disagree in a debate.

You too mate. So if out of pure sisterly love I call her Meeri Jan, its bad, but out of love(I dont know of what kind) you call Pakistan ,Paki—- it’s fine?….(I rest my case)
Maybe because you dont love Pakistan that much to care what it is being called. I can completely understand and agree on that.
I wont waste my time on explaining two nation theory to you Imran, I have provided links and reasons to prove my point, and all you are doing is trying to make your own two nation theory, good luck on that.

i think this debate or discussion is becoming waste of time and energy for all of us. We should not waste time on things we can do nothing about. We should specially avoid discussions which instead of providing any good make us think bad or negative about our own brothers/sisters . I am sure the intention of Imrar , Pakistani or anyone else was pure and that it was out of anger or some other momentary force that made us do that and no one means what they might have said that hurted others. So please end this discussion where Satan is getting hold of us. As the Prophet (PBUH) said Afshus salaam wama bainakum ( please correct me ) . And i say again

Peace and Ras Gulla’s grease. :)

Salam, Its been a while that I have watched tv( and sorry I am no fan of geo, mainly net is my source of info), so I cant comment on the debates.

P.S. Your last post should have been the one in which I caught you plagarizing.anywhos..
I salute your dhetai(stubborness).

Dear Sir/Madam,
Is the democracy in Pakistan for the Pakistani……..?
Dare to raise your voice to empower the Pakistani – the country belongs to.

Pakistan is passing through a crucial time and is in imminent need for change of system, instead of change of faces, let the people of Pakistan the country belongs to be the real stack holder and empower them to decide the fate of their generation.
Since the creation of Pakistan the Pakistani people are left at distant from the corridor of power so that the ruling elite can do what they wanted to do in favour of their interest, leaving the Pakistani people at the mercy of circumstances. As this policy is denial of right of Pakistani people to rule their country according to their aspiration and desire to built this country, which can provide equal opportunity to all without any discrimination for the establishment of welfare society. Only the society base on tolerance, equality and justice can be the real guarantee for the prosperous and strong Pakistan there for your intention is invited to the crucial movement which could be the point of distraction or disaster.

since last 60 years no one has dare to trust the Pakistani people and involved them in to the day to day decision making process with intention to develop a sense of participation and responsibilities. These, decision making process affecting the future of their country and their generation at large and could share the real benefit of democracy,

But due to the calculated and intelligent manipulation of situation wherein the organized behavior, deprivation the opinions of the masses which being an important element within democratic society are distracted and manipulated, because , these elements, within the society would not allow the ruling elites to,, constitute and strengthen the invisible government, which is responsible to protect the interest of ruler.
As we are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes are formed, and our ideas suggested largely by a person, we have never heard of or seen. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of masses beings force to cooperate in this track, if they are to live together as a so-called smoothly functioning society.

Whatever approach, one chooses to take toward these condition, it remains a fact that in almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of people, who understand the submissive attitude and social patterns of the general public. They pull the wires which control the public mind, they exploit old social forces and engineer new ways to bind and protect their personal interest with outside forces.

Sometimes the negative consequence in the society is being fabricated by the professional propagandist or sometimes by the layperson deputed for that situation, they pose the politics is a dirty and corrupt game of prosperous and rich therefore honest and poor should keep away from political activities.

The important thing is that it is common and constant; to control the public mind bit by bit, as much possible to keep the masses away from the corridor of power. The systematic study of mass psychology, revealed to the ruling elite, the potentialities for manipulation of the society by actuate man, So the question naturally arise, If we understand the mechanism and motives of the ruling elite and the way they practice, mingle has proved that it is possible for us to initiate at least up to a certain extent, we can introduce the alternate socio-political system to the masses to replace the present democratic system which is destined for the feudal.

No one believes any longer that the voice of the people expresses, or any divine or especially wise and lofty idea, could have been stop. The honest voice of the people, regarding the system will affect the heart and mind of the peoples, and that mind once made up for it by the mass, people, taking responsibility for the change of system will succeed in creating public opinion.

The certainty of getting elected to the office or the problem of interpreting and popularizing new ideas, or the problem of making the day-to-day administration of public relation might be look difficult, but not impossible.

We have already lost the major part of Pakistan in 1971 simply to save the centralised sole power to exploit this country by the ruling elite they let the country break in part then allowing the masses to rule this country democratically. In the present circumstances we are again dragging our sovereignty at stack for the external interest in the name of national interest, instead of our interest i.e. the interest of Pakistani people at large.

The only way out of these crucial circumstances is to empower the common Pakistani at grass route level i.e. the change of system. This change is inevitable for the prosperous Pakistan .As a citizen of this country I have try to provide an alternate socio-political system to empower the masses at grass route level for rapid industrial and agriculture development with transparency and accountability in the system. Along with basic guarantees for the creation of welfare state, where in public representative and institution shall be answerable and accountable to the masses.

Kindly see web site….www.idp.org.pk
Kindly acknowledge with your comments.
Ilyas khan Baloch (Organizer Islamic Democratic Party)