If Maulana Abdul Aziz was concerned for lives of students, he should not have bragged for months of his power and tried to confront authorities to start with. Even if he did that, he should not have tried to escape in burqa, rather than just given up (if it was to save lives of women and children inside). Moreover, government is already saying, let women and children leave, so whose lives he was trying to protect.

Its plain sad events, but as Irtiza said, there may be some good out of it.

Just some thoughts:

1. Those who we sometimes see as scholars are not really so. They may have rote memorised principles of fiqh and other sciences in a madrasah but have no real knowledge as they are drowning in blind imitation, not knowing how to apply Islam to the current age.

This is just a general observation of the Pakistan madrasah system. Not really aimed at one person.

2. No understanding of reality?

How on earth do you intend to establish sharia within a state with its own leader and army?

3. Self deception. Delusions of grandeur perhaps?

4. Obviously the secularists got their goals out of this situation.

5. Can we go back to Tasfiyyah and Tarbiyyah now?

When we deserve a state of Sharia, Allah will bless us with it. But we should forever remain in our call to the worship of Allah alone.

Abdul, your molvi Abdul Aziz seems to be of very high imaan, not only he is keeping beard, he is also wearing hijaab. Masha’Allah

This whole fiasco is Mush’s latest political power play. Many of you are simply misinformed about the Lal Masjid scenario. The tinpot tyrant has been using them for months to claim that he is the only thing stopping them from “taking over” Pakistan. All they ever did was shut down a couple of brothels, which bribed the local cops to look the other way. Next thing you know, the usual suspects claimed that the Taliban was taking over Pakistan.
Mush also ordered attacks on the press, and weakened the judiciary by firing the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

Yeah it was unfortunate. May Allah have mercy on those who died and may Allah give musharraf what he deserve.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

This attack makes WACO look like a field day. Even, then Attorney General Janet Reno, gave the Brach Davidians 51 (yes 51) days before making the decision for a final assault on their compound.

NOTHING the Administration of the Lal Masjid did warranted such heavy handed military action on the part of Pakistani Government. The Masjid was already under seige. Why not just wait ‘em out?

I wonder if all of the “hijab” and “burqa” jokes are funny now?

Inna lillaahi wa inna ilayhi raji’oon

May Allaah shower His mercy upon the deceased aameen

really saddening news…

*When I mentioned the escaping part, I’m not saying it’s necessarily true….but my point was to give excuses and not be so rude towards the brother. Even if they made mistakes, they are still our brothers and sisters. Nothing they did justifies them being killed by other Muslims.

Allaahul Musta’an.

its interesting that soldiers who are dying are being called ‘martyr’…i dont think if either side would be martyr in this case since its muslims killing muslims and the whole things sounds political rather then religious

Salafiya, I truly repent to Allah if I crossed my limits.

You must see I did not make fun of hijaab at all, I was replying to Abdul who doubted our imaan in the post, and yet you did not defend us either, and later he called me and Amad kafir. Anyway, this is sad. I have to worry now, this is first time somebody did takfir against me, may Allah give me death while I am on state of iman and muslim, and worshipping none but Allah alone.

assalaamu`alaikum all

im a bro from singapore, born and bred here. akhee abdul – the muslims in the west are doing alot of good and i admire them for that. the zeal they have is something those in muslim countries should emulate. i understand where you are coming from and that is subject to further discussion – about muslims leaving the west and returning ‘home’. they are sincere and concerned about the situation of the ummah, as we all are. Muslims everywhere should correct their approach in doing things and brother, on your part, you should open your arms and ask Amad and Hassan to return, where is your magnanimity, instead of asking them to be disgraced.

Hassan – your comment absolutely cracked me up!

[quote]There is nothing brash about this, Nuqtah. It is well known that back home (I am from there, my parents still live there) that the non-bright (in secular studies) students are usually sent to memorize Quran and become moulvis. And having been there, I saw plenty of proof of that. That is why you have so much ignorance and so much innovation as well such as grave-worshipping, etc. As you said, that is a matter for another time.

Of course, there have been stars and will always be stars and beacons of light that emanated from the sub-continent. Sh. Syed Sabiq, Shah Ismail Shaheed, Sh. Mawdudi, Sh. Thanvi, Sh. Zaheer Elahi, Sh. Abdul Ghaffar Hasan and his sons, Sh. Taqi Uthmani and so on. A general statement does not preclude many exceptions to it.
[/quote]

If you or anyone has lived in Pakistan and are impartial and sincere in their observations, it is not hard to realize that in the sub-continent there’s a fine difference between an ‘aalim and a ‘maulvi’. While it is literally possible for anyone to be a Maulvi, it is not exactly true for an ‘aalim. It also shows the ignorance of actual curricula thought in the madressah, it includes mantiq and literature (urdu and farsi). Even if we suppose that most scholars are backward Jaahils (wal iyadhubillah), it would be quite hard to digest that they didn’t change their mentalities and manner of thinking after learning the noble sciences of fiqh, mantiq, and even literature.

Anyway, as long as you dont have empirical data to back up your claim, you have no proof.

Let’s suppose even if most of the Ulema (not just ‘maulvis’) come form lower class of the society? What is being implied here? Are you suggesting that people from lower class lack critical thinking abilities? This is yet again another insidious implication without a basis.

Really it is quite easy for you or me, who have had the ‘honor’ of living in West to condemn Muslims of Indo-Pak as being backward, grave worshipping mubtadee3s.

As if we are suggesting that they failed to see the true light of Islam when it had been present in Subcontinent for centuries. Yet, us being in West for 20 years? 30 years? 40 years? Were able to see the ‘true’ Islam.

I hope you realize how absurd this sounds.

In all honesty such comments are quite insulting (especially when Ulema are implicated), and smell of arrogance and a snobbish attitude.

(btw Sayed Sabiq was egyptian).

Wassalam.

“ATol: Maulana Abdul Aziz has been arrested. Many people believe the way in which he was arrested does not match the actions of a person who preaches to others to sacrifice their lives for the cause.

Aziz: This is all government propaganda. The night Maulana Abdul Aziz was arrested and brought to [state-run television] PTV, I had just finished a talk show and was on the way out with Ejazul Haq [minister for religious affairs] and the anchor of the program. I saw Maulana Aziz along with security officials. He hugged me, but only touched fingers when Ejaz tried to shake hands with him.
He immediately told me that he had been deceived. He said he was called by a senior official of an intelligence agency with whom he had been in touch for a long time. Since the official could not enter the mosque to meet him [to save his cover and identity] he asked Maulana Aziz to come to Aabpara police station [in walking distance of the mosque] and asked him to dress in a burqa to avoid being identified. [Aziz admitted that he and his brother Ghazi had done this many times before when they were declared wanted by the government]. But as soon as Maulana Aziz left the mosque he was arrested. ”

Source: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IG07Df01.html

There are many Indo-Pak aalims who are very similar to the ulama of Saudi Arabia.

Mujahideen Ryder, you are right, and I respect all ulama regardless of race, as long as they are talking from Quran and Sunnah. But I have seen an attitude rampant among Pakistanis (I am Pakistani, so i deal them with more, I do not know about arabs) that they say, forget that scholar he is an arab, what does he know! May be there are arabs who would just reject truth just because its not coming from an arab mouth, I do not know, since I do not know arabic, and I hang out with Pakistanis mostly.

Perhaps I did read into your words, no harm intended though. I have no hidden agenda.

[quote]It is for this simple reason that some modern figures, such as Dr. Hashimi, have had such a powerful impact on certain circles in Pakistan. Its not that these individuals are ‘more’ scholarly than those trained in madrasahs or seminaries, its just that they know how to connect to the people and teach them matters that are of more relevance to them, in a manner that is more condusive to their psyche.

[/quote]

I do agree with this bit. Jzak Allahu khair.

In my experience, what Sh.Yasir says is what I hear all the time from the older Indo-Pak crowd. Meaning even some of the “progressives” (hate labeling but don’t want to write a thesis of some people’s views) are saying that it’s sad that the Islamic education over there is the default or secondary when it comes to the secular education. Meaning you fail your tests and do bad in school, can’t pay for school, WHATEVER…your DEFAULT is the “madrassas”/ “Islamic education” etc. In general I guess that’s where the class-sim / disconnect starts. UNFORTUNATELY, there’s always 2 extremes to the situation. Both ends seem to forgo many crucial Islamic ideologies/rulings due to ignorance. (We got to meet somewhere in the middle)

It comes to the point where you’ll have discussions over here of “why believe in hadith”, “you don’t have to do this or that (fast all the days, pray 5 times a day if you work)”, “Quran is open for EVERYBODY’s interpretation” May Allah guide us all.

I feel because of the Islamic education being taught as a “default”, the other enders want to reevaluate Islam since they’re academically smarter/educated.

These ideas have had such an effect on many families in my community. I mean my own father thinks I’m going to blow myself up or get arrested and locked up for life because I have a beard and long hair.

I mean yesterday my dad said that I’m an extremist and should go to the “Lal Masjid” because I said it might be better for him to perform wudu before handling the Quran. (Really I didn’t even know what the Lal Masjid fiasco was until I looked on this post). The view of Islam has just been SO distorted among so many Muslims (forget Non-Muslims)! It’s like everybody is just wandering doing their own thing it’s crazy! This post is probably not making any sense, I think I’m just heated.

PS Sh. Waleed Basyouni told us a funny story of Siddiq Hasan Khan and Jinn.

Forgive me for the details because I’m going from memory but it goes like this (paraphrased)….

One day a snake appeared in his house. So he asked it to leave 3 times (b/c of the Hadith) It didn’t leave so he killed it. So later that night he wakes up finding himself being carried to a “Jinn court”! There was an actual Jinn judge and everything. So the judge was telling him “you killed one of us” etc. Siddiq Hasan Khan responded with “I only did what I heard from a Hadith in Bukhari” And I guess they were disputing whether or not the story was true (meaning there is a hadith of asking a snake 3 times, etc.) So then the Jinn bring out an OLLD OLD “man”, so old that the Jinn were carrying him. And the Judge asked whether or not this is true. And the “old man” responded “Yes! I heard it from Abu Hurayrah” (meaning that’s one super old jinn)

THE END

Ok maybe this story wasn’t so funny but more so interesting as hell. He told us other Jinn stories/magic stories as well. If you’re interested you can hit me up.

I live in the US but wasn’t born or raised here and am very much in tune with what goes on in Pakistan. The problem with Lal Masjid is that they allowed their students to take the implementation of shariah in their own hands, and as far as I know, there is ijema of scholars that this cannot be done. Shyakh Yasir Qadhi please correct me if I’m mistaken.

SubhanAllah, I wanted to make a very similar point that Shaykh Yasir Qadhi made, but didn’t because I was afraid of slandering the scholarship of ulema if I chose the wrong words. Please correct me if I say something wrong. The point Shaykh Yasir Qadhi made is very true. But, I want to clarify or add to what Shaykh Qadhi said. It is not the lower economic status and not really “social” either. The fact is that in every single Muslim country, and this has been documented in speeches I’ve heard, for the past few centuries the scholarship has come from village or village-like environment (yes this would include lower economic and social status but not necessarily)—from cocoon-like thinking per se. And, this “cocoon-like” is a word a scholar used in his speech.

As shaykh Qadhi said the problem is disconnect between scholars who come from different background and those who are urban. And, the fact of the matter is this distinction between city dwellers and ‘arabi (villager) has always been there, and I deliberately used the word ‘arabi for people who have knowledge. For example, the dawah that started from Saudi would have been not as effective or good had it not been that Saudi society would generally become “worldly” due to money and force scholars there to become worldly as well. I used Saudi example because people here would be generally aware of them. You take the same scholars, ibn Baz or ibn Uthaymeen, place them in pre-1950′s Saudi Arabia and see the results, Allahu A’lam. And, this won’t detract from their scholarship. It’s about being savvy and not if someone is a great muhaddith or faqih or not.

As Yasir Qadhi mentioned, this problem is more so in Pakistan, and it is mainly due to the fact that Pakistan is much more poorer and “backward” than most other Muslim country (check income pre capita—I think only Yemen, Sudan and Mauritania would have lower numbers but this is my guess). And, I am talking about “backward” in terms of economy and social awareness only—not intellect or religious scholarship. Secondly, unlike most Muslim countries Pakistan has never had a very strong central government/dictatorship. And, although there is a lot of benefit in this (like no restriction on doing a talk after a salat unlike Saudi and other places) there are cons as well such as any, literally any, Tom, Dick and Harry can open and run a madrassah if he can raise funds. There is no quality control of madaaris. And, although I’m not endorsing al-Azhar, at least they provide uniformity in Egypt because its awqaaf controls much of religious education (which has its own pros and cons). On top of that, almost all such dime-a-dozen madaaris are run by semi-literate mawlanas with no ijaazah and ‘arabi thinking/ways of implementation.

You take the ground realities in Pakistan, economic and political, and export it to another country, Saudi or otherwise, and you will have the exact same results, Allahu Alam.

So, for people to think that ulema’s village-based background and not being worldly has nothing to do with anything (Nuqtah), then that’s very wrong. And, similarly for some to think that it is due to generally no real scholarship in Pakistan (some others), then that is extremely wrong too.

Asalamu alaykum to all.

Instead of commenting on the Lal Masjid issue, i just want to comment on the comments i have read here.

I think it is really said that it seems that people do not think before they speak. From Yasirs writing a comment

“One of the main problems of the ulama in many parts of the world, and in particular India/Pakistan, is that they are typically from lower social and economic classes. This results in them behaving and acting (and giving fatwas) in a manner that those of higher classes simply cannot connect to, and, in all honestly, look down upon.”

And then trying say that he was not speaking of the Lal Masjid issue by saying later “Also I was not referring to any one particular person, but rather the general trend in our countries.”

Well Yasir, when you write statements like these in response to a certain article about a certain Masjid and imam, what are people supposed to think? And then of course you find out that you are blatantly wrong contradicted yourself when you posted the article from counterpunch

“http://www.counterpunch.org/khan07072007.html”.

Well, I think more people read your first comments where you seem to attack Ghazi and an ignorant Maulwi who has no foresight and knowledge of present issues, and of lower class.

And then of course other people attacking Abdul-Aziz when he wore the burqah, and making disgracing comments, only to find out they have been wrong about what actually happened?

Let me ask this,,, how many people who were so bold to write actually knew what was going on other than what they heard on Big Brother’s News?

Shame on you! At least I would have expected better from some of the Bloggers here, as they claim to have such knowledge.

And of course, instead of trying to focus on the many valid points on Abdul, you choose to attack his statements which may have been wrong. What a good way to justify a persons on guilt and wrongs.. attack the other!

And the article in itself.. Since when is the writer of the main article now qualified to write about advantages and harms! As if he is a mujtahid. Have you read their opinion of the masaalih and mafaasid? SubhanAllah! We seek Allah’s protection from ghuroor and from being amongst the ruwaiybidah.

How sad it is to see that some Muslims, turn their back on our brothers. I am not saying that you have to agree to what happened, if it did the way the news portrayed it, but read the comments and see how many people attacked our brothers and sisters who died, on contrast to how many even dared to speak on the evil of Musharraf and the hukm of what he did… of course the sin of what he did, if it is not kufr, is definitely worse that what the Lal Masjid did (if it was a misjudgment).

Remember the following points:
1) Verification of news before speaking on the issue
2) Protecting the honor of our brothers and sisters, especially those who have given their lives for Allah (even if they may have been mistaken)
3) Being qualified to speak on issues and not taking it upon themselves to speak ion these issues when they may not even know many of the basics.
4) Trying to address all issues to a post, and not merely hiding behind labeling others as “khawarij”

It would have been so much better if we had made duas for those who were affected by this ordeal, and to stick to those issues which everyone is sure of.

I have so much more to say. but the sorrow I feel in my heart now from these comments is blurring my ability to write.

really it was heart aching the whole incident. May Allah shower his mercy on the shuhadaa and give busharraf what he deserves. This guy busharraf goes one step ahead in his excesses towards the muslim whenever he gets a chance. I am amazed at those liberal secular muslims who are supporting busharraf and backing him on this. I mean what goes on in there mind when they are happy about this kind of operation. This incident is indeed tragic.

Suhail

For those who can read urdu, its very interesting, I never knew it:

http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/jul2007-daily/12-07-2007/col4.htm

Yeah it truly did, may Allah have mercy on shuhda, and may bring something positive out of it for muslims.

Salaam. Here is more in Urdu, this one is really really sad, and made me cry:

http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/jul2007-daily/13-07-2007/col3.htm

Sorry, both articles are big, and I think translation would not do justice to them.

(BTW Amad bhai you have difficulty reading urdu?? If yes, then you should not belong to our prestigious FOB club)

I think that the issue is that the self appointed Attaturk of Pakistan wanted to destroy this madarsa which had over 6000 students, a huge security risk for the modern Pakistani state. Who know who started the fiasco, but no one deserved to be killed for allegely not following the process and takings the law in their own hand. Pakistani autorities had full capability to simply arrest these people and try them in a court of law but as I said earlier, they did not want to resolve this issue peacfully. If you look into the details, you will see that very high level government officials were advicing the mullahs also. As far as the issue of “escaping” is concerned, I think that you guys have been watching too much TV and paying way too much attention to what media spins. Why can’t we believe the “mullah” who said he was invited by some very influential people for discussions? Do you know that senior fedral minister has agreed to take care of the family of the deceased mullah? Any chance this close associate of Mush was advicing the mullahs?
Bottom line is that this who incident is sad and unfortunate and will create problems for all of us especially the bearded/niqabi ones.
Mush and the Pakistani autorities deserve 200% of the blame for the operation as they had the ultimate control and made the final call.

There are numerous reports in the media about Ghazi grave having a perfume smell. A couple of days ago at the graduation cerenomy at Jamia Usmania in lahore I met two people who swore by Allah that they went to the grave and it had a sweet smell to it. I make this declaration by Allah that I asked both those people to swear by Allah as to this being true.

Any ways regarding Abdual Aziz making state within a state is in accurate. I had a discussion with a prominent mufti about it. He said the method was doubtful. Then I asked him that when you look at it, the lal masjid people never implement the hadud laws i.e. never gave punishement. At most they did was do amar bil maruf wa nahi al munkar with power so how could that be wrong? And mufti said to me that when you put it that way, there was nothing wrong with their methodology.

Assalam,

Does anyone believe in that boy’s story who told the press that he “escaped” from Lal masjid and “they” were not letting anyone out of the mosque. And, if anyone tried they shot him??
I find this very suspicious since all the other Talibaat are saying that they were there on their own will. And this boy has just disappeared after that day.

here is a very enlightening article on this issue (in urdu)http://www.ummat.com.pk/Report.ummat.com.pk/09082007-Misc_Reports/InterweuSyeedAhmedAbbsi-09082007.html