This past Monday, Fatima Thompson and I were interviewed for an article in the Muslim Link about the Pray In movement, which seeks to follow the example of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in his arrangement of prayer space and community participation.
Over the course of the last few months, I’ve had the opportunity and pleasure to meet and work with a diverse group of very intelligent, talented, committed, and passionate individuals as well as to participate in and or witness several pray-ins at local mosques. In writing about and discussing the issues surrounding Pray In and women’s access, space, and treatment within our Muslim communities, I’ve been met with varying responses. So I’d like to offer some of my own insight along with excerpts from a lecture delivered by Dr. Ingrid Mattson with whom I find myself agreeing on many issues to clarify and answer some of the common misconceptions and/or at times weak arguments used by those who often sit on the sidelines spewing invectives opposing the Pray In movement, complaining while doing nothing for worthy causes, which seems to be a bit of sport that Muslims excel in i.e. look at the reaction to Gaza.
What is Pray In? Pray In is a group founded by Fatima Thompson, an American convert to Islam to address the inequity and injustice we see in our Muslim communities, which so often relegate women to second-class or third-class believer status while happily repeating the mantra that “Islam elevated the status of women 1400 years ago.” And while that may be true, ever since the time of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) and his early companions we have seen the inroads of cultural practices none too friendly to women erode those rights and that freedom, dignity, and respect once afforded to us in our religion and in our communities. This erosion is manifested in many ways from a lack of educational opportunities, disproportionately being blamed and bearing the burden of society’s ills, and exclusion from the masjid and the life of the community.
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How does Pray In seek to address these issues? Pray In attempts to engage our Muslim community in discussions relating to the access and treatment of women particularly in masajid and communal spaces as this is one of the most visible and potent manifestations of our community’s attitude towards women. Through engagement with community members and leaders, panel discussions, articles in a range of media outlets, and pray-in protests we seek to initiate discussion and positive action within our various communities. The issue is not simply getting safer, better-lit or more comfy accommodation (although that is important) but more importantly the concerns range from how women are treated, included or excluded, and valued or devalued in community life and participation within the Muslim community.
But there are so many other bigger issues in the community that we should worry about? Are there? Then put your money where your mouth is, get off the sidelines, and utilize your passion, talents and energy into taking leadership on an issue so that you can work to improve that situation. I may even support you. But don’t make your own weaknesses, insecurities, and inaction a cause to try to tear down and weaken the initiatives of others. That’s like saying to a person who recycles, why are you recycling when there is oil gushing into the waters off the Gulf Coast or the pollution from vehicles has more of an impact on the environment. That’s not a successful can-do attitude worthy of emulation but rather the can and will do nothing attitude of a loser. A quote from the anthropologist Margaret Mead comes to mind, “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” Will you step up or are you all talk and no action?
But we haven’t heard the women in our community complaining, in fact most of them like the setup and have asked for barriers and partitions? How does a woman excluded from coming to the masjid or relegated to the basement, balconies, separate rooms or behind partitions access the imam and leadership or participate in community discussions, which invariably take place on the men’s side amongst men? How would she even recognize the imam if she can’t see him? For the most part, she doesn’t participate, she doesn’t speak up, her views are neither heard nor considered. She is rendered invisible and unimportant, certainly not deserving of respect, dignity, or even consultation and perhaps that is just the point. A woman given dignified space, access to the imam and leadership, and allowed to participate presents a challenge to a certain power structure and way of doing things. And it takes a real man and real leadership to be able to welcome the participation of women and to create meaningful access and opportunities to facilitate that communication and participation. Let’s take for example, Umar, the second caliph of the Muslims:
Ibn Jawzi narrates (Sh. Albani has classified this narration as weak): Umar forbade the people from paying excessive dowries and addressed them saying: “Don’t fix the dowries for women over forty ounces. If ever that is exceeded I shall deposit the excess amount in the public treasury.” As he descended from the pulpit, a flat-nosed lady stood up from among the women audience, and said: “It is not within your right.” Umar asked: “Why should this not be of my right?” she replied: “Because Allah has proclaimed: ‘even if you had given one of them (wives) a whole treasure for dowry take not the least bit back. Would you take it by false claim and a manifest sin.'” (Al Nisa, 20)
When he heard this, Umar said: “The woman is right and the man (Umar) is wrong. It seems that all people have deeper insight and wisdom than Umar.” Then he returned to the pulpit and declared: “O people, I had restricted the giving of more than four hundred dirhams in dowry. Whosoever of you wishes to give in dowry as much as he likes and finds satisfaction in so doing may do so.”
It’s so interesting that clearly there was no partition and the men and women were close enough to recognize each other and to hear each other. The women were allowed to speak and those in attendance listened to her, no one shouted her down that the voice is awrah or that she should remain in her home and not be seen. From what is apparent, the men and women were able to comport themselves appropriately.
Do some women ask for barriers? Yes, they do and others do not ask for barriers. Dr. Ingrid Mattson has an excellent lecture on the subject called Heaven’s Gate: How Muslim Women Open or Close Doors for Their Sisters, in which she addresses many controversial issues from women’s roles in society, the myth of the idealized Muslim woman, prayer space, true women’s solidarity and feminism, advocating for change, and the need for liberalism in order to move our communities forward today amongst other issues.
But the women might not be in proper hijab and the men might look at them? I responded to this argument here:
Lower your gaze brother, lower your gaze. If you weren’t so busy eyeballing the sisters and nitpicking their clothing choices you might have a better understanding of the obligation to not prevent women from coming to the masjid. If you just can’t help yourself, then maybe you should stay home or better yet maybe the brothers should assault you, slam the door of the masjid in your face when you try to enter, call the police to have you removed or serve you a banning notice.
Do you think that would be an appropriate response? Because, these are among the methods employed against women in our masajid.
In addition, why is it that the onus is always placed upon the sisters, did Allah not call men and women (and in this instance the men before the women) to control their behavior in order to protect their modesty, not to make weak excuses about being unable to control oneself from being distracted or aroused even though we do it every day. One sister said to me, “the brothers only use that they’ll be distracted line, when they can oppress us.”
So according to the logic of some, if men cannot restrain themselves from looking at women, women must be excluded or forced to stay at home, be placed behind partitions or in separate rooms, or in the back of a classroom. But why not demand of our brothers that they act like dignified human beings and not animals or demand that those who cannot control themselves remain at home themselves for the good of society or in a separate room or behind a partition? It’s easy to tell others to accept conditions, which we would never accept for ourselves. It’s similar to much of the discussion surrounding racial profiling and immigration, many of those who support these measures would themselves be exempt from scrutiny.
But the women are not obligated to come to the masjid, there’s are hadith stating their prayer is better at home or the best rows for them are the last ones. None of this negates that the command of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) to not prevent the women from coming to the masjid or the examples we saw in his own time or the time of his closest companions. Many who like to make mention of the latter hadith to force women into the furthest row at the back of the room do not similarly use it against the men that come later and pray in the last row. Nor does the hadith imply a prohibition of praying in the first women’s row, which in some cases is also the only row therefore also the last and best row. Dr Mattson reminds us:
The Prophet Muhammad said, “Do not prevent the maidservants of God from the mosques of God.” What we have to understand is that women are not prevented from praying in the mosque only by words. They also are prevented when they are not afforded reasonable access to the prayer space and the opportunity to join the congregation. The female companions of the Prophet Muhammad enjoyed this access during his lifetime; it cannot be anything other than disobedience to his teachings to deny such access. In order to open doors of spiritual opportunity for our sisters, it is, therefore, sometimes necessary to put aside our preferences.
The blogger Umm Zaid poignantly reminds us here and here of the pain and hostility women encounter when they venture out to some of our masajid in addition to the poor image of Islam conveyed not only to our non-Muslim friends and family that may accompany us to these houses of worship but also for us, the believers as well. And for many of us converts, we have chosen to enter and remain in Islam (although far too many turn their back on their communities and Islam in the process) not as Imam Johari AbdulMalik says because of the Muslims but despite our interactions with our fellow Muslims.
Umm Zaid:
I do think there is an underlying misogyny imported from wherever that goes into this. Is it Islamic? I don’t think so, given the clear hadith about women being allowed to go to the masjid. But I will tell you here, all you who read this, I have never felt so hated as a woman in Islam the day that I was locked IN to the masjid and the only way I could get out was to walk through this sort of maintenance hallway to the men’s area where I was stared at and screamed at. (Why? Because the man had locked me in — without checking to see if I was there — and then left, he could not hear me pounding on the door and calling for him to open it).
This is beyond “we will have dignity with separate yet equal prayer spaces,” and this is something that (a) will never be solved by those types of spaces and (b) largely prevents them from existing in the first place — even here… in America. I cannot make excuses for Muslim men anymore.
While the sisters may have some valid points, I don’t like their methodology, protesting, not following the rules in place for their own marginalization, talking to the media, they are creating fitna (discord). Sounds like more sitting on the fence complaining without any action but Dr. Mattson responds to this argument as well:
…Secondly, ‘A’isha was public in her corrections. Of course she corrected some people privately but she also corrected people in a public fashion when necessary. When she heard that someone was attributing to the Prophet Muhammad something she found reprehensible, she did not hold back. In doing so, she taught that it is perfectly acceptable and sometimes necessary to challenge power publicly.
It is because of the example that she set that we see her students demonstrating the same kind of strength and courage. For example, ‘A’isha bint Talha, who was one of ‘A’isha bint Abi Bakr’s students, is well known for very publicly refusing the demands of others that she cover her face in public. ‘A’isha bint Talha was the most beautiful woman of her age, but she was also a great scholar of hadith who learned religious knowledge from her aunt and had the same kind of confidence to articulate her convictions.
and:
Certainly there is much value in respecting common norms of behavior and not acting counter-culturally simply to provoke a reaction. However, sometimes it is only outrageous behavior that will elicit a necessary reaction in the face of mindless complicity. Who is to judge when it is appropriate to sacrifice individuality for the sake of the common good and when it is necessary to fight for one’s rights, despite protests that one is creating discord (fitna)?
In the end, this is a judgment call that we can all make, but must not assume that any of our judgments are infallible. When it comes to women’s rights, we should not be so terrified of a backlash that we disown our sisters who take a more radical path. We might think that their behavior is outrageous, ridiculous, or over-the-line, and we can make that judgment. Still, we should support their right to be wrong.
Some say, if we don’t like or want to accept our own marginalization in a community, then we should build our own mosque. I haven’t heard this argument made with any evidence from the Quran or Sunnah and in contrast, we have explicit hadith mentioning not to break away from the congregation. Also, in the example quoted above with Umar and the woman who corrected him, her response to what she perceived as injustice was not to build her own masjid and start her own community, rather she stayed and tried to rectify her community by whatever means were at her disposal.
While building a mosque of one’s own may have certain appeal and immediate benefits, I also think the community may suffer in the long run. Growing up in a small town in upstate New York, the tiny downtown main street has a church on just about every corner, which I always found strange wondering what exactly separated all these different Christian denomination such that they did not feel they could work or worship together. I now live in Maryland, and within my community we have at least three Islamic schools within about a 10 mile radius and in one area 2 or 3 (depending on your theological beliefs) masajid within about 1 mile radius, none working together or cooperatively and in effect competing and dividing the resources of the community. This argument seems similar to those who tell others to “go back home” when they advocate for the rights and dignity supposedly guaranteed to us as citizens and residents in a certain land. But in this situation, I am home within the Muslim community, am not going anywhere, and intend to stay, speak up, write, engage, and protest to help my fellow Muslims whether we are oppressed or the oppressors.
Some say we should not invite non-Muslim media to cover these events because we “shouldn’t air our dirty laundry in front of non-Muslims.” Yet, the clothes are just as dirty, stink just as much, and are just as unfit for wearing regardless of who sees it or knows about it. It is still poor dawah to both Muslims and non-Muslims, when the public face we present to those inside and outside of the faith, is of penalty boxes and women’s exclusion and marginalization. Is it any wonder that no one believes us when we say our favored dawah slogan that “Islam elevated the status of women?”
Spend one day masjid-hopping as I have done many days across the U.S. and Canada, visiting women’s sections in various masajid or listening to the stories of hurt and pain, of disillusionment and discontent from Muslim women and from those who have left Islam unable to find any solace or a safe place in communities which rejected them, and which also reject and marginalize half of their congregation. A sister, a convert, once wrote to me from New Zealand, where upon encountering hostility and exclusion from the men at her local masjid, she and some others took to praying fajr outside on a mountaintop. According to a documentary by Channel Four, more than half of the masajid in Britain have no accommodation for women at all. Is that the Islam we are inviting others to?
I hear Pray In is a progressive group, full of media savvy progressive-type activists that want men and women to pray side by side and women imams? Pray In is a completely volunteer-based group, there is not litmus test for our volunteers that comprise a diverse group of women and men with varying viewpoints, which is not at all surprising considering how these issues of women’s access and participation in our communities are not limited to a single place, group, interpretation, or masjid. Despite the protestations of those with their heads in the sand, these are global ummah-wide issues.
Pray In has not yet articulated a mission statement but we are open and welcome to genuine participation from committed individuals of all stripes and colors and backgrounds. If you’d like to get in on shaping the organization, then join hands with us, and help forge the mission of the group. Our group is not weakened nor are the issues less true or important because you may disagree with the politics or views of one individual within the group. Many Muslims love when a non-Muslim writes something they perceive as positive about us, whether it’s about hijab or Palestine or unjust detentions and infringements of civil liberties. Is the cause any less just or or any less right because a non-Muslim is also standing for it? On issues that matter, we can work together to find common ground amongst liberals, conservatives, and moderates. I turn once again to the words of Dr. Mattson:
You might say that now I have adopted a typical liberal stance on rights, despite beginning my talk with a recommendation that a more conservative path of transformation should be considered. Certainly, I believe that when it comes to gender relations in Muslim religious communities, that an ethical transformation based on spirituality, and drawing upon diverse resources of classical Islam will yield positive results.
However, I also believe that this kind of transformation cannot occur today except in a social and political context in which the liberal notion of individual rights is upheld. Authoritarian and patriarchal tendencies run too deep in Muslim communities for any real transformation to occur without grounding our religious choices in a liberal political (in the small and large sense) framework.
Has there been violence or an assault? Yes, threats, intimidation, interrupting and breaking the salah of at least one of our supporters, and a physical altercation and assault. Some of our supporters have been banned officially or unofficially from a local masjid. I’m reminded of the hadith of the Bedouin who urinated in the masjid. The companions wanted to jump on him but the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) restrained them and spoke gently with the man. Or in the story of the slander of Aisha, her father Abu Bakr exemplified forgiveness, gentleness, and mercy to those who had slandered his daughter but in our day, we ban those who are assaulted rather than engaging in conversation or attempting any reconciliation. And the fact that many men and women who are opposed to any discussion of women’s access and participation, let alone the Pray In movement, are so hostile, ready to spew forth their vitriol and violence belies the claims that these issues from prayer space to the participation of women are not a real problem in our community. On the contrary, it demonstrates just how important these issues really are as people don’t usually get so worked up over non-issues.
Did you call the police? No, each time the police were called, it was by the masjid authorities.
Did you press charges? Yes, after some hesitation. Why? Because it’s not okay to assault anyone at anytime, we can disagree but just as we as a community have taken stands against domestic violence, we must also take a stand against the violence committed in public in our masajid. We’re open to dialogue and reconciliation but the case is still pending…
What does Pray In envision for the future? I can only speak for myself as Pray In is still in its formative stages but for me it is heartening to see other organic grassroots Pray In movements spring up across the country, people have contacted us asking how they can start their own Pray Ins in their local communities. Despite, the rumors, fear, insults, innuendo, intimidation, and red herrings utilized to discredit or marginalize us as a movement, we have been successful in initiating discussions and positive action on local level and have heard from concerned and interested parties internationally as well.
We’ve had a diverse group of women and men express their support that finally someone is taking up the cause and standing up to the forces of marginalization, which seek to silence, exclude, and render women and women’s voices invisible in our Muslim community. There have been success stories, some masajid fearing a Pray In at their doorstep have taken steps to participate in the dialogue or make changes to empower and support women in their communities from improved prayer space accommodation to creating real avenues to foster discussion where these issues can be raised and resolved and all that is a step in the right direction.
My take on the Muslim Link article: The Muslim Link: Biased Against Pray In
#Society1 month ago
Farhan
June 7, 2010 at 12:52 AM
As-salaam ‘alaykum wa rahmat Allahi wa baraktahu,
I’m currently reading through your article and there’s a lot that I agree with. May Allah increase your efforts and truly bring this equality that we should seek.
Sister, I must make one respectful small point of disagreement. You wrote:
For the most part, she doesnรขโฌโขt participate, she doesnรขโฌโขt speak up, her views are neither heard nor considered. She is rendered invisible and unimportant, certainly not deserving of respect, dignity, or even consultation and perhaps that is just the point. A woman given dignified space, access to the imam and leadership, and allowed to participate presents a challenge to a certain power structure and way of doing things.
However, couldn’t the exact opposite charge be levied? When you say ‘women are invisible’, you are implying that the only visible place is where the men are. But, look at it from the other perspective. Perhaps the men are invisible – to the women!
One could say “because the men are not in the same room as the women, they are not given dignity or respect”. This can go both ways.
Mombeam
June 7, 2010 at 12:27 PM
as-salaamu `alaykum
In my mind this would only hold true if it were not the men who are the ones with the control and power over the situation. For example, I was reading something in which somebody argued that it doesn’t matter that there are white people who are racist because there are also black people who are racist, therefore the two cancel each other out. The problem with that argument is that it might if it wasn’t for the fact that white people are more often (and often overwhelmingly) in positions of power in which they can act upon their racism and institutionalize it. So since the men are the ones in control of our masaajid, they are in a position to institutionalize their neglect/forgetfulness/whatever you want to call it of women when the women are not seen as fully participating, fully present members of the community.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 6:44 PM
Wa salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah Farhan and Mombeam, lovely to hear from both of you. I’ve been away today but am glad to see the discussion progressing and Mombeam encapsulated my thoughts exactly, thank you.
noor
July 3, 2010 at 1:16 PM
Mombeam: MashaAllah, very well said.
nahoma
June 7, 2010 at 12:56 AM
Aisha R.A. said in HER time, if the prophet SAW were to see how the women are now, he would forbid them from coming to the masjid.
if that was during the time of the salaf…what about now?
I think over 90% of muslim women now (at least in the west) do not even wear proper hijab…they may wear the khimar (head scarf) but not the hijab (this is because the vast majority are wearing pants and exposing the silhouette of the legs)
Once they actually cover their awrah, then we can talk about coming to the masjid!
as for the 10% of women who are proper, then May Allah reward them with firdaus and May allah perserve these sisters. For these 10% of sisters who wear proper hijab and dress modestly, then for sure this article applies to them. As aeisha R.A said, the women used to be like black crows in the masjid for fajr. No one could tell who was who. <– THAT is the sunnah. now a days women are more like peacocks with their bright colours which draws attention to them. and the clothing they wear is super skin tight. May allah guide us allah to the straight path.
I know from the above post I probably sound like one of those male chauvanists, or just a sexist but in reality I 'm really not. I respect women. I don't think they shouldn't work or go to school, I think they have every right to. I don't mind at all if you don't wear proper hijab yet, that is between you and allah. I respect all of our sisters. but what ticks me off is when the women who don't even wear proper hijab yet, expect to come into the masjid in the same area as the brothers looking like a peacock and then saying…"well this is how the prophet SAW's masjid was!" I would love to go back to the way the prophet SAW's masjid was, but to do that you gotta dress like the women sahaba's were dressed…refer to Aeisha's statement I put in the beginning.
If the facilities in your masjid are messed up..and you really want to pray in the masjid (even though its better to pray at home), then dress like Aeisha R.A was, a black crow, with no one being able to recognize her….then I would gladly have all the sisters like this praying with the men in the same room without any barrier or anything…Just like at the time of the Prophet SAW
Mombeam
June 7, 2010 at 12:33 PM
What masaajid are you going to?! I don’t see masaajid where women are showing up exposing their `awrah, and I’ve been to MANY all over the country. On the contrary, I see that even women who may not wear hijab outside of the masjid will cover themselves when coming to the masjid. Yes, some women show up in pants of half-falling-off hijabs. Don’t you see women like that (and worse) in the parking lot, in the street, at the store, at work? And in those cases they are standing in front of you, not behind you or to the side. Haven’t you already developed strategies for dealing with this issue in places other than the masjid? You must certainly have a way of avoiding looking at a jogger in a borderline bikini who runs by your car when you’re at a traffic light, so you can’t tell me that if a woman shows up at the masjid in a long-sleeved shirt, pants (even if not Shari`ah-compliant) and a scarf on her head, AND she is sittng or standing BEHIND YOU, that you can’t deal with that.
I almost wonder if the main hall were open to men and women if there might even be more community pressure to dress properly….
Zulander
June 7, 2010 at 2:13 PM
“I donรขโฌโขt see masaajid where women are showing up exposing their `awrah, and Iรขโฌโขve been to MANY all over the country. On the contrary, I see that even women who may not wear hijab outside of the masjid will cover themselves when coming to the masjid. Yes, some women show up in pants of half-falling-off hijabs.”
… You answered your own question.
Struggler
June 8, 2010 at 9:10 PM
Ya Akhi, Whenever, I have gone to the masjid I have always seen the sisters full Hijab covering their hair completely. Addtitionally, the vast majority of women come in abiyas.
As for your comment about the 10% of women who actually wear proper Hijab then this articles applies to them – the people who wrote this article are the ones that take their deen seriously and it is these sisters who are concerned about the problem and most probably take their hijab seriously. I highly doubt you will find a sister who is not that religous and dresses inappropiately be concerned with affairs at the mosque.
And Akhi, and what about the 90% of Muslim men who do not practice their deen in accordance with the sunnah. How many times have I seen our brothers honking their horns at each other, swearling at the ones who control traffic, and yelling at each other to get out of the masjid of Juma or Eid prayers? How should the masjid deal with these brothers? Should they still be allowed to the masjid? Of course. Then why are we banning our sisters and bellitling their issues?
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 9:54 AM
Jazak’Allah khayr Struggler for the support. One of the saddest moments I’ve witnessed first hand was outside a masjid after jumu’ah on the first day of Ramadan some years back. We had just listened to the beautiful reminders and I was walking back to my car. The parking lot for the other jumu’ah services is HOV-3 and one man alone in his van tried to pull in for the second jumu’ah and the security brothers were politely telling him to park across the street because he didn’t meet the criteria and then he starting cursing at them and fisticuffs almost broke out. And all this in Ramadan, in the middle of the day, at the masjid, and while we were all supposed to be fasting. And this is the masjid from which I’m unofficially banned for taking pictures during the pray-in. May Allah guide us to that which pleases him. Ameen.
Aurangzeb Khan
June 21, 2010 at 7:11 PM
I don’t know what causes such arguments to into statements like, “Don’t you see women wearig much less in parking lots…”. We are talking about Masaajid here, and not parking lots. We are talking about Muslim women, not kuffaar. I have myself observed women coming to Jumaa prayers in clothings that even a good Karif woman would be hesitant to wear.
Wake up and smell coffee.
Women and men arguing over these things definitely do not seek to correct anything. From what appears, they seek authority, self projection, and fame. They would not even hesitate to cause a fitnah if they can.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 6:52 PM
Nahoma, I enccourage you to read the transcript of Dr. Mattson’s lecture, she also addresses that very issue relating to the hadith of Aisha, which I did not include out of concerns for space.
When I first converted to Islam, one of my biggest fears keeping me away from the masajid was not knowing how to act or dress as I’d never previously visited a masjid and didn’t know what to expect. I didn’t know any Muslims to ask save for the Muslim taxi drivers I met.
People are at different places in their journeys and understandings of Islam and even if a person does not conform to our idealized version, the very fact that they are even coming to the masjid, facing the hostility is admirable and we should welcome them with open arms.
I once brought my non-Muslim sister to jumu’ah with me and I can’t tell you the amount of nasty looks she got from sisters. She was in jeans but wore a jacket over her shirt and covered her hair, do you think she left with a good impression or would want to return? She’s non-Muslim, so what of other Muslims seeking to come closer to Allah? Do anyone of us want to be the one turning them away from the deen?
tariqislam
June 7, 2010 at 7:18 PM
Sr Ify,
Your last paragraph brings to attention the failures of the women in the Muslim community not having good manners, not being gentle, and being generally unaccepting. Honestly I think that is one of the biggest obstacles for your movement, not the men.
AsimG
June 8, 2010 at 2:19 AM
We should be accommodating to non-Muslims and invite them to Islam in the best of ways, but as Tariq mentioned the issues you bring up have more to do with lack of adab then a separate area for women to pray in.
We don’t need to misrepresent who we are by abandoning a scholarly accepted opinion of a separate prayer area in order to do daw’ah.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 3:48 PM
Tariq & AsimG:
Tariq, that’s one reason why I highlighted Dr. Mattson’s paper, even though some people thought I was dumping on the brothers, I’m not, women and men play significant roles in “opening or closing doors for Muslim women.” Just as in the seating debate, it was other sisters moreso than the brothers trying to remove choice from both men and women.
Adab or the lack thereof is a universal issue, yet the accommodation and participation in the masjid seems very often to be decided by the men who run our communities moreso than the women. I’d like, as I believe you do as well, to see meaningful opportunities for women’s voices, participation, and inclusion in our communities.
Middle Ground
June 8, 2010 at 4:06 PM
Salam
And my standard reply to that is this: if women are not welcomed to the masjid by the men in the first place, how will the women learn the adab of the mosque?
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 10:15 AM
Wa salaam alaykum Middle Ground (I love that name by the way), touchรยฉ!
akhan
June 8, 2010 at 12:06 PM
Don’t we want the women not following the sunnah to come to the masjid? Where else will they learn? Obviously it is not being taught at home.
What should we do when we see a brother come in with gold chains and sagging pants? Should we kick him out?
The majority of Muslims hardly ever come to the masjid and only practice Islam during Ramadan, if at all. If a person is coming to the masjid, regardless of how practicing she seems, isn’t it a sign that he/she wants to become a better Muslim?
Mohammed
June 10, 2010 at 9:48 PM
Wow, Subhanallah. Your husband ( if you are married) is lucky. Mashallah sister, keep it up. Just beautiful response and explanation. There shall be lot of fitnah during end of times. May Allah protect all of us and guide all of us to the straight path.
Muslim Girl
June 14, 2010 at 10:50 AM
Well what about the Muslim woman who is slowly becoming strong in her deen and may currently wear what you deem “unfit”, but is working to better herself… should she still be banned from the mosque? So you’re saying that everyone who is not the 100% PERFECT MUSLIM should not be allowed in the mosque?
How about brothers take care of lowering their gaze first and control themselves from looking at the “silhouette of legs” before THEY come to the masjid!
abu Abdullah
June 7, 2010 at 12:59 AM
I felt If you would have left the previous personal attack unattended, instead of writing this article, to die its own death.
faman Kanat uktbuhu ilallahi wa rasulihi, faktubahu ilallahi wa rasulihi…(plz correct transliteration if needed. i wish i be accepted in that dream program and be able to write these correctly without reluctance.)
There are various mixed cultural taboos I have observed. Different masjid observe this ‘provide equal space to women differently’. Once I liked the one with glasses that women can see the imam and men are separated from glass in NJ. But sunnah dictates equal rules.
I remember one of little mosque on the prairie episode in which women were divided whether to have a barrier between men and women; So half chose with the divider and the other half without it. Nevertheless, men must do their part i.e. provide equal facilities to the maidservents of Allah Ta’la as compared to men.
barak Allah feek. walhamdulillah.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 6:57 PM
May we both be accepted to the Dream program, although for me it will have to wait until I complete working on my current degree, insha’Allah. Are you going to Ilm Summit again this year? I appreciated your comments that’s why I included them, it made me think of something I had neglected and if I did not raise it in the post, I’m fairly certain it would have been raised here in the comments so it allowed me to get a bit of a pre-emptive strike, so may Allah reward you with all kinds of goodness.
abu Abdullah
June 7, 2010 at 9:34 PM
Ameen to the adiyya.
Something is being misunderstood.
I spoke In context of the hadith, where prophet, sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam, urges all of us to stop arguing even iff you are right in return for a guarantee of jannah. (may Allaah make us among those who guard our tongues and keyboard hits whch do not benefit). So stop arguing people…
Lots of uncle/ameers of the several masjd are aware of women’s rights but cultural baggage they brought and the mix culture in the masjid and the attitude of implementing only what I say types.
I do not live in DC so not sure what huckus Live In is causing, but if you (Live In supporters) made your demands for the prayer area etc that you seemed close to sunnah and are not met with, keep Sabr. Unfortunately its not a very demanding alternative, but only that would actually work, isn’t it? So sister, take a step back and take heed from so many advices being offered. You don’t have to fight all of them.
Zakir Naik jokes many times that its time for him to give a lecture on men’s rights in Islaam, so that we are aware of our rights too.
I was wondering if there is any practical application, a masjid that practices a separate row behind men and ahead of women for children these days. What challenges could they face. Because as we see in the masjid children tend to mix with men rows so there is no barrier.
Unfortunately the masjid I attend to , during jumua’ sisters stay long time , even after the salah talking at near the gate or contrary to that sometimes men go through sister’s entrance/exit causing them to feel embarrassed.
Allahumma as’aluka Qalbun saleem, wama qarraba ilayha min qawlin aw ‘amal. allahumma ameen.
Salams.
PS No I am not going to ilmsummit and probably same will be the reason for going to dream program would remain a dream, inshallah.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 12:08 AM
My mistake, I thought you were somone else, quite a few abu abdullahs here, I think.
fatima
June 7, 2010 at 2:54 AM
I realize these aren’t your words, but I seriously fail to comprehend Dr. Mattson’s statement: “Still, we should support their right to be wrong.”
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 7:00 PM
I think I understand her sentiment, leaving aside a bit of our own self-righteousness, being humble, and recognizing that even if we disagree with others, they may have a right to their opinion even if we think that opinion is wrong. For the most part, I like to be in the business of allowing for choice and not restricting it unnecessarily.
Amad
June 7, 2010 at 5:26 AM
Dear Sr. Ify,
While I sympathize with you for the need of clean, expansive spaces for sisters in masajid, I am greatly bothered by the following issues that would make personally stay away from supporting your group. The solid Muslim Link piece linked further highlights the challenges you will face in getting community support (and without support this will become just a source of infighting, not improvements):
1) The presence and/or support of those whose actions have been very negative for the Muslim communities. Asra, for instance, has spoken of many communities in very negative terms, calling many radical or extremist, or for instance, in the case of Dar ul Hijrah, the “911 mosque”, etc. Just because a 911 hijacker prayed at Dar al-Hijrah makes it a “911 mosque”?! This is an insult and only someone who has regard for other Muslims’ honor can use such labels. Since the same hijackers lived in the state of Virginia, maybe we should call the state “911 State”? Such is Asra’s background of hateful and fear-mongering rhetoric, regardless of what kindness she shows in a few MM comments.
Fatima is another person whose history makes the effort susceptible to questions. From the article:
As for Fatimah’s argument about Jewish protestors joining a Gaza protest and having no effect, that is nonsensical argument. For instance, if you had Thomas Friedman start a group called, “Justice for Gaza”, his history of hasbara-support would make us doubtful about his intentions. This isn’t just human instinct, it is justified doubt. What if someone like Benjamin Netanyahu joined the Gaza protest, would others take his presence as something to appreciate?
2) The more I learn about this, the more I am confused to the actual purpose of this group. You mention that the goal is to address “concerns range from how women are treated, included or excluded, and valued or devalued in community life and participation with the Muslim community.”
I thought your goal was to get better spaces? So, let me ask you if a masjid has a great, separate space for women already, is that not acceptable?
3) The citing of strange fatwas (you can find any fatwa you want, but is it the mainstream one?) is another bothersome issue.
So, it isn’t about clean, separate spaces, it isn’t about praying in the SAME space as men, but it is now about leaving little space? How do you know how much space to leave? Which mainstream scholars accept this interpretation? Isn’t this prayer-creep going to eventually reach to the point of joint prayers, or prayers led by women?
Can Fatima clearly unequivocally say that this is not about combined prayers or women leading prayers and that she disagrees with both formats? I know you do, but I want to hear from the group’s leader.
And I am sorry, with regards to barriers being bida’h, I would say that is probably the strangest excuse I have heard. Accepting homosexuality as a Muslim is not a bidah? I mean if the group’s leader and supporters were following 100% sunnah, it would be one thing, but to pick on this one fiqhi issue (that has ikhtilaf) because it supports their position is weird, to say the least.
4) The fact that there is a unanimous dislike of the group’s modus operandi should make one rethink strategy, esp. if the goal is to improve things. Again, the Gaza example, Israel claims to be helping its own people by blockading Gaza, but it is losing world support. Is Israel really helping itself? And no, I am NOT equating Israel with your group… just using the analogy as Fatima chose to use it (since the gaza issue is fresh).
5) If I went into a poor black neighborhood, in a desire to better the lives of blacks in the community, while never actually harmonizing with the community’s leaders or EVEN talking the folks, do you think that this operation will be successful? No. So, how does Pray In expect to solve women issues without even talking to the women (surveys, etc.) to figure out what the wider concerns are, let alone harmonizing with the Imams? How would you judge what the majority of women in that mosque want? What if the majority of sisters didn’t agree with you on your concerns? Would you leave the Masjid alone then? Would that democratic solution be acceptable?
I really hope inshallah that you all see the challenges your group is facing concerning both your intentions and actions on the ground. Ingrid Mattson is an example of a sister who reached all the way to the top of Muslim leadership, so its not all that dark out there for our sisters. The question is how to improve the situation so others can also emulate Ingrid, without fracturing the community any more than it already is.
Ahmad AlFarsi
June 7, 2010 at 10:29 AM
Spot on analysis, bro. Where’s the +1 button when you need it?
abuabdAllah Tariq Ahmed
June 7, 2010 at 4:25 PM
+10, tabaarakAllah
Arif Kabir
June 7, 2010 at 7:51 PM
+1 Very solid arguments Masha’Allah.
another white brother
June 7, 2010 at 1:33 PM
I was almost on board with the whole DC saudi masjid sit-in thing. In all fairness, I have heard the women’s section is subpar and that masjid has other issues…
However, being from WV originally and seeing what Asra Nomani has done to Islam in the state in general and Morgantown in particular, I stayed as far away from the thing as possible.
Is it really sunnah that is seeking to be implemented? Or is it just 3rd wave feminism peppered with some ayat and ahaadith to make it seem “Islamic”?
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 7:14 PM
Yes, really the sunnah, from me, all the evidences for Pray In are firmly grounded with Quran and Sunnah.
Yaqeen needed
June 29, 2010 at 11:28 PM
Masjid hopping is also from the sunnah, right?
Ify Okoye
June 30, 2010 at 5:14 AM
Right.
Yus from the Nati
June 7, 2010 at 3:41 PM
Wow รโฆรยง รยณรยงรยก รยงรโรโรโก. my sentiments exactly. I was just too lazy to write it out.
Main thing I’m confused about NOW (before was a little confused), is what is the goal?
What is the MAIN focus and goal, micro and macroscopically?
Abu Ibrahim
June 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM
MashaAllah this is a very very very good response. May Allah azza wa jal reward you akhi Amad.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 7:18 PM
Macro Goal: A return to the example as Imam Safi says “closest to the sunnah” of the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam where women are truly valued, included, and full participating members in our communities.
Micro Goal: Equitable prayer space with the arrangement “closest to the sunnah” of the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam and doing away with forcing women into marginalized places and spaces. If women choose their own marginalization or what they perceive as preferable so be it.
AsimG
June 8, 2010 at 12:33 AM
Choose their own marginalization? A little prejudicial way to phrase their Islamically correct stance
elham
June 8, 2010 at 8:50 AM
that just sounds like how Non-Muslims refer to the hijab as being oppressive and looking down on them for choosing to live in ”oppression”
Yaqeen needed
June 29, 2010 at 11:42 PM
Barakallahu feek.
This seems to be totology
Closest to the sunnah means prefering to stay at home and pray. And the last time I checked, the sahabiyyaat were not practising masjid hopping et al. The beloved daughter of mustafa- alaehi salam- was busy at home with home chores and was not even given a maid to help her. She was given adhkar to do. Now thats the sunnah if you really are sincere about getting sunnah-ed up sis
Ify Okoye
June 30, 2010 at 5:14 AM
I don’t agree, going to the masajid, visiting the Muslims, and taking a concern in their affairs is from the sunnah. I do chores and my adkhar and work and go to school and whole lot more all without the help of a maid. If you want and can stay at home, do so but recognize not everyone has that luxury.
Yus from the Nati
June 30, 2010 at 11:41 PM
Yaqeen Needed:
Not everyone is in that position to follow what you term as “following the Sunnah”. There are societal/psychological ramifications that we’re not taking into account. Especially within certain sectors of American Muslims. Some women have to work, some NEED some kind of Muslimhood to be around, etc. Following the sunnah would also entail doing what is “more rewarding”. Is it POSSIBLE, that it may be MORE rewarding for a sister to pray in a Masjid given a specific circumstance? (recent convert, a Muslimah moved to the area who knows no one, prayer comes in that’s close to her work, etc). List can be a mile long. I’m talking about the overall benefit of keeping a Muslim sane and on the deen versus a possibility/likelihood of apostasy as an example.
Brother
June 7, 2010 at 5:22 PM
Barakallah Feek Brother Amad. You explained it perfectly. This group expects women to automatically agree with them without even consulting them or even getting their opinions first. It’s a failed attempt from the start.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 7:19 PM
No Brother, we don’t, try to learn a bit before making untrue statements and passing false judgment.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 7:12 PM
The Muslim Link piece was full of bias and untruths, I did a full breakdown on my blog, check it out: The Muslim Link: Biased Against Pray In.
I don’t like to engage in hypotheticals, give me a real example so that I can make a real and informed opinion. In prayer space issues, we must always keep in mind can the women see the imam, not on a tv screen as that causes all sorts of fitna within the salah, can they communicate with the imam, can the imam see and hear them so that he knows if a child is crying or some other issue has arisen requiring his attention.
If you want to ask Fatima questions, please direct them to her but I can say that is not the goal of Pray In.
As for the bidah argument, it is not my argument, which I addressed on my blog.
There is not unanimous iktilaf at all, again addressed on my blog.
I am not trying to force anyone out from behind a barrier but by the same token, do not try to force me behind one. We are working within communities with the leadership and community members through diverse processes at present we are in consultation with at least 3 masajid.
Pointing to tokens like Dr. Mattson or President Obama really doesn’t say much because they are tokens and not the norm, something again addressed on my blog post. So feel free to read and join the conversation over there if you’d like.
Amad
June 8, 2010 at 2:19 AM
The questions directed for Fatima is something that you should be aware of as well.
If I was on a mission to Gaza (this analogy keeps giving :)), I would want to know where the Captain is heading and what his intentions are. Wouldn’t you?
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 4:04 PM
Your questions are nothing new as I addressed them in a post published before you even asked them. I don’t think you have a good understanding of Pray In, it’s more than anything a group effort that operates by shura, we don’t all agree on everything and we don’t need to but in certain areas we agree and it from that basis that we work together and move forward and in that sense it’s kind of like MM :)
Amad
June 8, 2010 at 4:22 PM
You sure are right about that. I think many others are in the same boat. To be honest, and I don’t mean any disrespect, I don’t think the members of pray-in really have a good understanding of what they hope to achieve. There are ideas and thoughts, and ambiguous action propelling from therein. Yeah, sometimes things can work out starting from ambiguity, but that’s exactly the time you don’t want to be locked out of the conversation. Kind of what’s happening now.
Ahem… we do have an official vision and mission now :) … took a while but its there. An interesting lesson is that we were far more careful in the beginning when we weren’t quite sure of where we are heading. We concentrated on building bridges, reaching consensus and getting the best minds out there (like our outreach to you). That’s what I meant… it’s okay to start without a concrete charter, but only tepidly and gently.
Yahya Ibrahim
June 7, 2010 at 10:49 PM
ahsant
good discussion points to begin with.
ibnabeeomar
June 8, 2010 at 10:28 AM
good analysis [so much so that this is my first comment on MM in months :)]
Amad
June 8, 2010 at 11:59 AM
So shall this moment be recorded in MM’s recent history when one of our founders took a break to honor us :) We are all waiting anxiously for your return to full duties :)
abuabdAllah Tariq Ahmed
June 8, 2010 at 4:27 PM
Ahlan wa sahlan wa marhaban bik. :) Oh yeah, you helped build this house, Omar. ;)
Yus from the Nati
June 8, 2010 at 1:21 PM
I would be interested in seeing the insight from Imam Suhaib on this subject since he is an actual Imam who interacts with masaajid/people (not just from an academic point of view) as well as being a convert himself.
There could be a possibility of no matter which men of knowledge one brings, that they may still be blind to the intricacies of the women as a whole (on this subject) so would be imperative for one of them to be asked, to thoroughly research it (from a sociological point of view) as well.
iMuslim
June 7, 2010 at 6:48 AM
Salam Ify
I’ve remained quiet on this issue, mostly because I am not sure what to say.
I feel the barrier issue is a red herring in and of itself. I believe that the most important thing that women need is access to the mosque; a clean, safe place to pray, learn, and socialize; and also, access to the imam, and a say in how the masjid is run to ensure that it benefits all members of the community. The presence or absence of a prayer space barrier shouldn’t make a difference to the availability of the above.
The argument against the barrier is more symbolic than anything. It’s removal will not necessarily guarantee any better treatment, and unfortunately, due to the sickness in the hearts of many men and women, will probably cause more problems than it would solve, at this time.
The only change to the barrier I would suggest, is to make it so that women can see the imam/male congregation – even just for the most basic need of ensuring that they are following the salat correctly.
Otherwise, in terms of real change, the removal of mental and social barriers is far more urgently required than of any physical barriers within the masjid itself. The achievement of the latter would actually be a hollow victory, that may lead to the demise of the Pray In movement, as many within it would think that the job had been completed, when it hasn’t even begun.
The barrier issue actually reminds me of the hadith about prohibitions, narrated by Aisha, radiallahu anha, where she mentions that if Allah had revealed the verses about intoxicants and fornication first, the people would never have given them up. Rather, He first revealed the verses about His nature, Paradise, and Hellfire. Thereafter the people’s hearts became soft, so that when eventually the verses on prohibitions were revealed, they ran to obey them.
I strongly suggest that this be the strategy of the Pray In movement. The mistreatment of women is a symptom of a greater disease – that the hearts of the believers are not soft from the remembrance of Allah, and are void of the mercy that this wonderful way of life is built upon. We need to work together to re-instill that mercy into the hearts of men and women.
However, only mercy begets mercy. Likewise, confrontation will only beget more confrontation. To paraphrase what Allah most High says in the Qur’an, choosing the path of good treatment will turn your worst enemy into your best friend. Therefore the Pray In movement – especially those who are really seeking to fulfill the Sunnah – need to ensure that mercy is at the heart of any future action.
With much love and respect.
Mehzabeen
MW_M
June 7, 2010 at 7:42 AM
At our masjid, we utilize a one way mirror, the sisters can see through to the imam but the brothers who look back can only see their reflections. The sisters have been satisfied with it and we’ve never heard any complaints about barriers.
Yus from the Nati
June 7, 2010 at 3:47 PM
I’ve always wondered why masaajid don’t use this…. I used to have this type of tint on one of my old cars and it was pretty good.
another white brother
June 7, 2010 at 5:52 PM
The best setup I’ve ever seen was in IANT in Dallas (the one with Imam Yusuf, the Turkish shaikh).
Separate floors with two way glass on top for the sisters AND rooms with clear, soundproof glass for parents with children to pray.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 7:28 PM
And were there also rooms for women who are not praying? Also, how does a sister approach the imam or ask a question from the second floor enclosed space?
Arif Kabir
June 7, 2010 at 7:49 PM
Sr. Ify, your group is called Pray In. The questions that were posed by you to the commenter had nothing to do with praying in.
If someone wants to approach the Imam, they don’t need to do so during prayer time. They can either call up the Imam or his wife, or go to his office when he is in.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 4:11 PM
Arif, which commenter, another white brother? I was simply asking for more information since many people tend to think that sort of setup is ideal but in my mind it raises a few questions, which I think someone who’s been to a particular masjid can answer. And from my own experience in the Muslim community, accessing an imam, of course outside of salah, is one of the most challenging aspects for a sister like me.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 7:27 PM
MW_M:
I visited a masjid in New Jersey a few times and they employ a one way mirror but due to the fact some brothers might be able to see shadows or blurry outlines, they also cover the mirror with drapes, and the women are forced to pray in the dark in their own completely separate part of the musallah. So here the issue isn’t even one of “proper hijab”, it’s simply when is enough enough. People often like to say that women are encouraged to come to the masjid but we need four levels of barriers to ensure they are rendered completely invisible?
Not being from there and not knowing how to lodge a complaint expressing disapproval, I’m sure the masjid admins over there will say the same that they’ve never heard any complaints from the sisters even though I have heard complaints from sisters who live there and frequent that masjid.
A few questions come to mind: If a sister has a question during a lecture can she raise her hand an be seen, how is her voice heard, can the imam hear the children crying in the women’s section, can the imam hear a sister taking her shahadah to know if he is going to fast and needs to slow down, if she stumbled or mispronounced something?
MW_M
June 8, 2010 at 3:40 PM
I can’t speak for the masjid in New Jersey, we don’t hang any drapes on our barrier and no brother has ever complained about shadows to my knoweldge. The point being, it is a viable alternative which this group is dismissing completely unnecessarily.
Our one way mirrors are sliding glass framed by wood on the bottom half and from the wood to the ceiling on top. The higher portion is sliding glass , so during lectures they’re opened so sisters can ask questions if need be.
There’s no need for a sister to raise her hand, the imam speaking makes sure to ask if there are any questions on the sister’s side, and then they ask. Some sisters, not brothers, don’t feel comfortable asking questions in front of men so they write them on a notecard and send them to the men’s side.
The imam can easily hear children crying on the women’s side and has numerous times hastened the salah because of it. The doors separating the men and women’s side are easy enough to open that children (little children obviously) regularly go between sides during salah.
When a sister is taking her shahadah (alhamdulillah, it has occurred many times) she takes it in the activity room downstairs which has a foldable wall. The wall is opened and the sister takes her shahadah sitting right across the imam. We’ve never had any overzealous brother or sister complain about this either.
The point of all this being, there are many masjids which have successfully managed to separate brothers and sisters modestly while still letting each feel that they’re a part of the community. In our masjid, there have never been, to my knowledge, any complaints by the sisters about their accommodation other than an occasional microphone failure.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 4:17 PM
MW_M: Thank you for the thorough response, allow to clarify, I do not speak for all of Pray In, we are a diverse group and issues are decided by shura but I can say for myself, I’m not a big fan of the two-way mirror as I’ve seen it implemented at the masjid in NJ but I’d be interested to see how it’s implemented in your community. So don’t think I’m rejecting all solutions outright, I’m rejecting particular ones that I’ve seen and experienced. And it’s good to know that such care is taken with the shahadah experience in your community.
Striving
December 25, 2013 at 8:35 AM
Dear brother, I wish to thank you for your remarks atleast now the pray In knows that just as there are sisters who do not wear proper dressing to be allowed into masjids there are also masjids that have been modeled in such a way that sisters who are properly dressed do not fill marginalised in anyway. The new advocacy you (pray In) should be starting is to have masjids just like the above described and ways of getting funds Insha Allah am sure there are many muslims out there who will donate whole heartedly.
May Allah grant us with goodness.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 7:20 PM
Wa salaam alaykum Mehzabeen,
I disagree with the barrier issue being a red herring, I see it more like the canary in the coal mine. A community, which does not value its women as full and participating members is more than likely to have that reflected as its public face when it comes to prayer space accommodation. So for me, the two issues are intertwined.
The fact that our community is so caught up in its supposed need for barriers is such a sad state of affairs. How do these same people function at all in the wider society at work and at school? In the comments to one of my other posts about prayer spaces issues a sister mentioned how the two masajid most resistant to allowing women or even excluding women from services were destroyed by Hurricane Katrina. Perhaps, coincidence, but you know what those same men who so adamantly opposed womenรขโฌโขs inclusion moved on to the remaining masajid, which include women and the world did not fall apart.
While I agree that like in anything coming closer to Allah makes his obedience preferable to his disobedience, Iรขโฌโขm also quite cognizant of the fact that some people will need to be brought along kicking and screaming or simply by being forced to deal. Just like with the fight against apartheid, Jim Crow laws, miscegenation laws, womenรขโฌโขs suffrage, etc these gains were not truly won by waiting for all the people to agree, many did not and still do not agree, violent confrontations ensued but in the end the judges, leaders, or the community took a stand against hate and marginalization. And I believe itรขโฌโขs high time that the Muslim community also took a stand against the marginalization of half of our community in order to remain faithful to values we claim to uphold.
Abu Abdurrahman
June 8, 2010 at 3:30 PM
Assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,
Mashallah this is definitaly an interesting discussion and some excellent points have been raised.
1) I think it’s unfortunate that parts of hadeeth that are congenial to the argument have been cited, while omitting other potentially quite relevant text.
“Do not prevent the female servants from attending the masajid..” –
should ideally be followed by the remainder from his (sallahu alayhi wa sallam’s ) words
“..and their houses are better for them” –
which was emphasised in a separate further by explaining that the prayer in her private room in her house is better than her open rooms in her house which is better than her salah in her courtguard..
So my dear sister, may Allah reward you and us for our efforts. I feel that at least an element of our discourse is pervaded by the sense that presence equates to being valued, and a lack of visibility implies being undervalued.
You’ve set the standard for quantifying ‘being valued’ by a bar which I personally am not convinced is reflected in the texts of Islam. In fact all it does is to give primacy to *agency* (‘can do’s) as the measure of value of being a human being — not what a person ‘can be’. And that approach is posited on basically challenging an established order of privelage, by listing ‘can do’s’ – and then trying to win them over! That’s surely is not Islam?
2) In terms of some of the other personalities who seem to be spear heading the initiative (ie. I’m not referring to our honourable sister in the following point, but to the Asra’s):
The question ‘if men can do Z, then why can’t women?’ to have its own amusing irony. The question is NEVER put the other way around. ‘ If women can Z, why can’t men?‘ Instead it’s almost taken as a given that the traditional domain of the woman is some how inferior: so running a home, and bringing up children are menial chores, unpaid in money or prstige, not a calling. So the women should struggle to take personal control in the traditionally male domains (from the time of the Prohet peace be upon him till very recently, earning , competing for economic and political power, committtees etc.) ..and the domain of family life – no matter how important it may be – must be squeexed in somewhere between the public domain commitments of the man and woman.
Allah knows best
Thank you for providing the inspiration for this discussion, and jazakum Allahu khairan Amad for your observations.
Wassalamu alaykum wa rahmatullah
Amad
June 8, 2010 at 3:42 PM
love your manners in your comment, even more than the content. Bravo mashallah!
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 4:29 PM
Wa salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah Abu Abdurrahman,
Pray In is a diverse group, it makes decisions by consultation and shura, we do not all always agree and the views of some cannot be said to the views of all. I’m not really focused on trying to compete with others or emulate them but a twist on your question was asked in my post. Why is that so often when there is a question of space or “proper dress” the emphasis is on punishing the sisters by kicking them out or by putting them behind barriers and not the other way around? I’ve been to a number of masajid, where sisters were completely kicked out the masjid during special events not even for the fard salah. If I was in an organization, I’d try to honor and respect those who have chosen to attend, be it the salah or an event, rather than trying to discourage them.
The wording of the hadith you highlighted has been used by many to exclude women, which I do not believe was the intent behind it. Many hadith indicate something may be better but that doesn’t necessarily imply a prohibition, and for many of us, we are away from our homes for much of the day and jump at the chance to pray with the Muslims in a masjid.
And Allah knows best.
Yaqeen needed
June 30, 2010 at 12:11 AM
The hadith indicates that it is PREFERABLE and MORE REWARDABLE to make your salat at home and NOT in the masjid. Why fight to chase something less rewarding? Beats me.
Ify Okoye
June 30, 2010 at 5:10 AM
We are not always in our homes and the benefits of praying in the masjid are numerous, if can’t or don’t want to understand too bad for you.
Yaqeen needed
June 30, 2010 at 10:53 PM
“We are not always in our homes and the benefits of praying in the masjid are numerous” Hmmm
Firstly, the best and most rewarding place for the sincere Allah fearing muslim lady to pray is in her home. As such those numerous benefits are in her home. NOT in the masjid.
Where should the true sincere muslimah always and often be? Outside or in her home? The clear answer is in her home. That is if we are following true Islam and not Americanised or a tushed up version that fits our desires just as the Xtians have done to the noble way of life and message brought by Jesus- Isa alaehi salam.
Ify Okoye
June 30, 2010 at 11:23 PM
You seem to have missed the boat yaqeen, reality, practicality and pragmatism are also needed. In order to pay for my home yaqeen, I need to work and go to school. Likewise to learn my religion to shore up my faith, develop Muslim companionship, or even look for a spouse I’ve had to do it outside of my house. A healthy dose of reality is needed otherwise the supposed claim to yaqeen is simply an empty and hollow shell devoid of meaning and full of harm for yourself and for those who might take you seriously.
I am reminded of the story of the man who sustained a serious head injury and when he asked his companions if there was any rukhsah for him to make tayammum instead of ghusl they said no. The man made ghusl and he died. When the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam was informed of the incident, he cursed those people by saying “they killed him, may Allah cause their death.” Be careful yaqeen before jumping in to speak of that which you have no or very little knowledge, the world and every situation is not all black and white. Fear a day when we will be returned the Knower of seen and the unseen and He will inform you of what you used to do.
Sureyya
June 26, 2010 at 11:30 AM
Asssalamua Alaikum,
First, I find many of the points opposing women in the masjid to be weak. You cannot quote that men are prohibited from keeping women from the mosque and then justify the violating behavior by quoting that their houses are better for them. Anyone who prohibits women from the mosque is violating the Quran and sunnah. It is better to pray at home, but that is the woman’s choice and situationally affected. Better refers to modesty, humility and issues which Allah has not revealed. But we do not know Allah’s judgement for a woman who allows children to go untaught, converts to go untaught, women and children oppressed, all with the excuse that it is better to be at home. That may well be Shaytan using the limitation of better prayer to swallow the rule that forbids men from prohibitting women swallowing and the entire spirit, and Quranic verses, of Islam that once included women in the community.
As for the brothers that talk about dress, the Quran and Sunnah which forbids them from prohibiting the women from the Masjid does not say , “unless any Muslim man finds anything immodest about their dress, behavior or comments.” That is innovation justified by inappropriate exageration of Aisha’ s statement of what the Prohet would do if he saw the way women dressed. That was Aisha’s statement, a hypothetical, not a hadith of the Prophet, p.b.u.h..
The brothers are self-important and need to lower their eyes and be modest instead of justify their sins by pointing to women’s dress and behavior. Stop nit-picking because none of you can stand up to that criteria–it is hypocrasy. Sisters should dress extremely modestly–and brothers should stop looking hard for a shadow under loose, thick pants with long shirts–that is HIS sin–jor shadows behind one way glass!
Arif Kabir
June 7, 2010 at 7:38 PM
That is already the case, iMuslim. Dar-al-Hijrah is the best Masjid out of all of the DC Masaajid in this regard; the sisters pray on the second floor and there is a tinted window in which they can view the Imam below, as well as TV screens that show the congregation below. When I was younger and used to attend Dar-al-Hijrah’s school, I used to wonder how come they had a better arrangement (lol, imagine the media hoopla if brothers carried around signs saying ‘Give us our rights’ and tried praying up top).
Very smart of the Pray In group to pick Dar-al-Hijrah out of all the Masjid. They actually had a point with Islamic Center, DC, but with Dar-al-Hijrah, this is just a very unnecessary ruckus that they caused.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 4:32 PM
Arif, we were invited to pray behind the men at DAH by the Imam at a panel discussion he attended, hosted by Pray In, on the issues of women and the masjid, we were responding to the invitation.
africana
June 7, 2010 at 7:14 AM
assalamu alaikum,
i visited a mosque a couple of days back. it’s very rarely that i do go. the women’s section is up on a balcony overlooking the mens’s section and so cannot be viewed by the men.
this has its advatages, of course, but one thing i noticed is that the behaviour of some of the “children”, some of which were boys as old as 11 (and shouldn’t have even been up there) was utterly delorable, racing up and down the length of the women’s section, sliding on the carpet making it difficult to hear anything. One boy almost ran over my feet as i was standing in prayer in spite of the women’s section being practically empty.
The boys in the men ‘s section however displayed none of this behaviour and sat respectfully listenig to the imam.
i couldn’t help thinking it was the fact of the women’s section beig so out of view that had led to this behaviour. I am not saying that the masjid shouldn’t be organised in this way however i really think that attendees need to make sure their children know that the women’s section is as much part of the mosque as the men’s section.
i think it might in part be the women whose behaviour is not much better-staring each other down with the dirtiest of looks, talking idly and snacking all the while that the talk was on.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 7:34 PM
Wa salaam alaykum africana, I’ve had similar experiences, it’s great at one local masjid’s off-site jumu’ah location, there is no partition other than a row of chairs to delineate the spaces. The imam can see everyone and everyone can see him and if the children are noisy they disturb not just the sisters but the whole congregation but for the most part, things are quiet and I’ve actually seen a couple of fathers come and pick up their kids that were making noise or running around.
It’s amazing how cohesive the community can be and how well we can behave towards each other in the same space. I sometimes think that by abandoning ourselves to these secluded spaces we absolve ourselves of the responsibility to comport ourselves properly.
Abdullah
June 7, 2010 at 7:40 AM
Assalam uAlaikum
Sister, I agree with many of your points but I do not agree with your tone. Why must the article be so condescending and even rude in connotation? Kindness never enters anything but it beautifies it and never leaves anything but it leaves it tainted. I’m not trying to be male chauvinist, sexist, feminist, whatever here but why lay all the blame on the men if the barrier is removed? Don’t you think women have the duty to dress properly and proactively and take the necessary steps to steer clear just like men?
If men and women are mixing outside of the masjid chatting freely and casually without the barrier you don’t think the same will happen once the barrier is removed inside? Also, the examples of the salaf don’t relate here in my opinion. Their taqwa and restraint at even avoiding the littlest of sins was much greater than ours. I completely agree that voices should be heard, respect should be given, proper accommodations should be made, etc but not by removing barriers and allowing mixing directly or indirectly. As imuslims said, the problem is of the hearts and not of physical objects.
Person
June 7, 2010 at 3:56 PM
I completely agree with you. I agree with what they’re trying to do, but the message feels way too condescending.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 7:41 PM
Abdullah & Person, perhaps my tone could have been different so I’ll take that as an advice. Yet, until you’ve walked in my shoes or the shoes of some of our sisters you might find it hard to understand what it’s like to face hostility and even to be assaulted by our brothers, to have your salah interrupted, to come to the masjid only to find it locked or to be told you cannot pray there or do not belong there because you were blessed by Allah to be born of a different gender, to be cursed and have false accusations laid at your door by anonymous internet cowards and so on… so make excuses for your sister, bro. Our masajid have become places of danger and harm, spiritually, verbally, emotionally, and at times physically, I’ve seen far too many good people turn away from them. If Allah did not make me so steadfast in my iman, some of my interactions there might have also turned me away. May Allah protect us all.
I’m not asking for mixing but I am asking not to be punished because of the behavior, proper or improper, of others. One of the things I loved about Islam when I was first learning was that it didn’t have the concept of original sin or Eve as the temptress and that each person was responsible for his or her own sins. I am hoping to see reflected in our communities the truth of the statement that “Islam elevated the status of women 1400 years ago.”
Abdullah
June 8, 2010 at 7:14 AM
Salam
You are very right. The things that you describe are wrong actions on the brothers’ part and of course they shouldn’t be allowed. Then again, I turn around and ask, why do some brothers do these things and prevent their sisters from going to the masjid when the Prophet (saw) specifically said, more or less not to prevent the women folk from going to the masaajid?
There even comes a story in my mind about this about Abdullah Ibn Umar. He quoted the this hadith and his son said something to the effect “The women and times these days are different.” Abdullah Ibn Umar got so angry and thought that his son was objecting to the hadith that he vowed never to talk to him again and from what I read/heard he never did till the end of his life.
Abdullah
June 8, 2010 at 8:12 AM
After reading much of the comments I have to agree with one thing:
1. There is no CLEAR goal of that this movement wants to achieve I Mean seriously, what do you want to achieve? What is your goal?
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 4:37 PM
Salaam alaykum Abdullah,
That’s such a powerful narration, that a father, a man of Ibn Umar’s status never spoke to one of his sons because of a statement he made contradicting the hadith of Rasul Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam. I wrote this in another comment:
a khan
June 8, 2010 at 10:29 AM
interesting to see that very few women themselves have the same experiences that you do. I wonder why the masajid mistreat you and your group (as you said) so much?
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 4:39 PM
Keep reading, a khan, you might learn something, have you read the stories from Mombeam or Olivia or Africana or Umm Zaid, did you read the penalty box post, open your heart and your eyes, the stories are there, you just need to read and listen to them.
abdullah
June 7, 2010 at 8:08 AM
@ Nahoma, well said, Jazakallahukhayr
darthvaider
June 7, 2010 at 9:12 AM
Asalamualaykum wa rahmat Allahi wa barakaatuhu Sr. Ify,
Let me preface the following by saying that as a brother, I sympathize with a lot of the problems that sisters have to go through and donรขโฌโขt know if I can fully appreciate the difficulties that you all experience in some communities. The masjid I regularly attend has no partition and has active female participation within every sector of the community and Alhamdulillah over time Iรขโฌโขve come to appreciate the prayer arrangement along with the community model that encourages sisters to be a part of the masjid.
All of that said, I canรขโฌโขt help but feel an uneasiness with the approach of the pray-in group, the negative tone continually being articulated, and the arguments being used to justify what appear to be actions that go against the spirit of the sunnah.
Let me ask: if there was a community that provided adequate educational opportunities for sisters, allowed sisters to participate in the community, gave them access to the imam, and allowed the sisters to see the imam in a separate, clean, and spacious section, would the pray-in group still object? For example, there are communities that have two-way mirrors and others have a number of televisions that broadcast what is taking place in the mens section.
The argument that a barrier renders a sister as invisible to the community is only true if the community is being defined as brothers. Arent the other sisters who attend the masjid a part of the community? And depending on the community, isnรขโฌโขt that invisibility mainly during prayer times? I have been told that in Dar Al Hijrah they hold classes regularly where both sisters and brothers are in the same room without partition, but when it comes to prayer time, they both return to the designated sections. Most Masjids have many activities aside from prayer including weekend/weekday Islamic schools, evening classes, karate/tae kwon do, potlucks, interfaith activities, and other community events.
The argument about Aisha bint Talha- Iรขโฌโขd be interested in hearing some of our shuyukh comment on this. I didnรขโฌโขt see a narration mentioned and even though Dr. Mattson said it is รขโฌหwell known,รขโฌโข Iรขโฌโขm always more comfortable when the narration has a book that it can be traced back to along with scholarly interpretation.
Antagonism and general mean-spiritedness: demanding that men act like dignified human beings and not animals? Telling a brother: รขโฌลIf you werenรขโฌโขt so busy eyeballing the sisters and nitpicking their clothing choices you might have a better understanding of the obligation to not prevent women from coming to the masjid.รขโฌย? You speak of the gentleness of Abu Bakr radi Allahu anh and the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam, but shouldnรขโฌโขt gentleness be afforded to those who you disagree with?
Dr. Sherman Jackson once said that as human beings, we have a tendency to assume our own experiences/cultural realities as universal truths. We lose site of the fact that we canรขโฌโขt superimpose our own values on the rest of the world, and that rather than trying to create uniformity, we should respect- and expect- pluralistic religious expressions.
Perhaps a more noble effort would be to go to many of the same communities you mentioned, communities where sisters are not provided adequate educational opportunities or equivalent prayer spaces, and tackle those issues. If a sisters space is small and dirty, demand the masjid invest into a larger space and that the masjid provide upkeep. If the sisters donรขโฌโขt have regular access to the imam, try to create a program where after a certain prayer every day, the imam comes to the sisters section to address any questions they have. If sisters are not being educated, organize halaqaat and request the masjid to provide access to existing masjid classes. These are all accommodations I could very easily see masjids relenting to, and all of those accomplishments are significant.
Comparitively, I see very little that can be accomplished by way of standing in mens sections and calling the media other than hostilities, racking up restraining orders, and community in-fighting.
And Allah Knows Best.
p.s. I was hoping you could expand a bit about your mentioning that muslims have made a sport out of complaining and not doing anything. Gaza was the example mentionedรขโฌยฆ.what do you think Muslims should have done? From what I can tell, muslims protested, signed petitions, made dua, wrote letters to congressman, have created organizations that lobby for Palestinian rights, etc.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 8:56 PM
Wa salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh darthvaider,
I know your community and it is far from the norm in our area or in other areas I have visited, a model in some ways for quite a few things including arrangement of prayer space with the most choice possible. It is my understanding that one barrier wall or glass partition was removed from the original design? In my community, we went from no barrier to side by side partitions to once again no barriers at the off-site location. I asked the imam if we could perhaps have a situation like the one in your community, which affords the most real choice possible and he indicated that that may be likely in the future. A setup like the one in your community would work for me and truly I believe affords everyone the most choice and treats individuals as dignified human beings worthy of respect.
Tvs and two-way mirrors and completely enclosed off upstairs balconies or downstairs basements present a whole host of issues. One of the saddest scenes repeatedly played out during taraweeh and qiyam is waiting after the second rakah to “see” (or closer to reality hear) how the imam will pray, either ending with tasleem or standing for the third rakah. Do you know why? Because there is invariably a pull towards an upward motion of the heads of some sisters towards the monitor, which can only be said to be a loss of khushu and certainly not from the sunnah of looking towards the place of prostration and perhaps coming close to the prohibition to look up and here and there within the salah.
Another sad story came from a sister in one beautiful new masjid in Atlanta, which I’ve also visited. The sister’s section is an enclosed upstairs balcony with glass so you can look down from the first row towards the imam and the men’s section. It’s spacious, comfortable, well-lit, might even have an elevator for accessibility but one day the imam was giving a new Muslimah her shahadah, he was down below on the mic and she above completely cut off from him, he said the words to fast for her but he how could he know it was too fast and that she was struggling and stumbling and falling behind in this one of the most important moments for any new Muslim? Sadly, he didn’t and she couldn’t tell him.
Yes, I used to be a regular at DAH, and attended classes in classrooms sans partition and salah in the balcony.
The invisibility comes when the Imam is only visible and available to one part of the community and more often than not in the majority of prayers and lectures I’ve attended at masajid, there was no visual cue or access to the imam. Occasionally, a mic might be passed over to the sisters, usually after some discussion of whether the voice of a woman can be considered awrah and despite the khateebs assuring the men it was not, a perception was left the “good Muslim women” or the idealized version, is one who is most silent even during Q&A. I can’t tell you how many years it took me to regain my voice after my conversion or even dare to sit near the front of a classroom or raise my hand to answer or ask a question because I became socialized and sensitive to conform to the silent and invisible and unquestioning “idealized” version of femininity, which is very prevalent.
Most certainly gentleness should be afforded to all, I can always take that as a reminder, jazak’Allah khayr. Yet, harshness can sometimes be met justly met with harshness in return. Those words were for a certain type of brother all too comfortable being harsh with our sisters, judging and bashing them, ignoring his own duties to lower his gaze and so on. We’ve all heard it, sisters should do x, y, and z and the reminders for the brothers who are not doing x,y, and z are all too often missing or lagging far behind.
I’m sure you are well aware that a commonly used argument for women’s exclusion from the masjid or partitions or relegating sisters to the back of a classroom is that men will lust after them, not be able to focus, not be able to lower their gaze, in effect not be able to control themselves. Yet, Allah has commanded them before the women to exercise control and self-restraint because they are dignified human beings, Islam dignifies us so that we are not like animals. But the argument seems to suggest that men are animals unable to control themselves in the least thus their Muslim sisters are a great danger from them even though their non-Muslim classmates, co-workers, and neighbors, or women walking down the street are not?
The ways of tackling issues are varied and I’m open to suggestions and may even take on or have already been implementing your suggestions but one thing to remember is that many masajid are not open to any discussion of these issues at all. And many have no real public and effective avenue for such discussions to take place. Pray In utilizes a variety of methods, the first one is always searching for opportunities to engage in meaningful discussion and action, the protests are utilized as a last resort or in the case of DAH upon the invitation of the Imam.
As for Gaza, I wrote another post about that a year ago, which was republished last week. The general point is how it amazes me that some people can mobilize against issues even issues they claim to care about but when you ask them to show positive action, to build and participate in real and actual hard work on the ground rather than complain or backbite and make excuses for doing nothing, so often they flee away.
darthvaider
June 8, 2010 at 9:20 AM
Asalamualaykum wa rahmat Allahi wa barakaatuhu,
Jazaaki Allah khayr Sr. Ify for the respectful feedback.
Quite a few people have told me that our community is not the norm in our region. Iรขโฌโขve been around it pretty much my whole life, and Alhamdulillah itรขโฌโขs a blessing from Allah to have a community that you enjoy going to.
The original design of the current facility never had a partition planned; the original design had only planned for the main upstairs musallah and behind it a library. What happened was that the main musallah area started getting overcrowded and the sisters used to pray in the back of the musallah with a curtain stretching behind their space and to their side. Due to a growing prayer crowd, the administration decided to dedicate the entire front part of the musallah to the men and the library to the sisters, and there was a glass window which separated the two. When the move was made, the glass was promptly removed and thatรขโฌโขs what you see today.
As for the sad stories- for the first one, Iรขโฌโขm not entirely sure that the problem would be mitigated if everyone was in the same musallah. If itรขโฌโขs the second rakah and youรขโฌโขre unsure, wouldnรขโฌโขt you still have to look up for a second? I guess my point is that itรขโฌโขs not really a huge tragedyรขโฌยฆbrothers have to do it sometimes too :)
Regarding the second one, I think if a community is separated, they have to institute some common sense in those situations. Why didnรขโฌโขt they just ask a sister to give her shahadah? Or perhaps the imam could have gone to the sisters side with a wireless mic to give the shahadah rather than attempting to do the conversion remotely.
Most of the problems that we experience arenรขโฌโขt necessarily an issue of physical arrangements as much as they are attitudes. Adults getting upset at kids for wearing shorts to the masjid (even when they are long), or our inability to communicate with Non-Muslims in a masjid environment. I remember a close friend of mine who took his shahadah in college once took his old girlfriend to a masjid to teach her about islam, only to see her get treated very poorly; Sadly, when he told me where they went, I almost expected her to have that type of experience, and it took her a while to open up to the idea of being Muslim againรขโฌยฆshe eventually converted Alhamdulillah and they got married mashaAllah.
Invisibility- I agree with you here, and think that communities that separate have a larger weight on their shoulders than others when it comes to ensuring that sisters feel welcome and involved in the masjid. It is within your right as a sister to request that the imam do regular visits with the sisters to ensure that their spiritual needs are being met, and I think some of the mentality you mentioned is going to take time to change. Be patient inshaAllah. The only point Iรขโฌโขll add is that even attempting to gain greater access to the imam might need to be carefully planned.
Gentleness reminder- wa eeyaki.
Harshness can be met with harshness, but should it? One time Abu Bakr, radi Allahu anh, was being verbally abused and the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam smiled at him as Abu Bakr sat silently. When Abu Bakr, radi Allahu anh, decided to respond, the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam left, later telling Abu Bakr that when he was silent, the angels responded for him, but when he spoke, the angels left and shaytan took his place and he didnรขโฌโขt want to sit in a location where shaytan was sitting. There are so many ayaat and ahadith in the same vein- getting a home in paradise for avoiding arguments when youรขโฌโขre right, responding to people of ignorance with salams, and keeping peace and good relations with people being more virtuous than charity, fasting, and prayer. Allah will judge those brothers the same way heรขโฌโขll judge us, and weรขโฌโขll all answer for what weรขโฌโขve said. May Allah protect us from resorting to harshness unjustifiably. Ameen.
Iรขโฌโขve heard the argument youรขโฌโขve mentioned as well, and I think perhaps youรขโฌโขre extending peopleรขโฌโขs sentiments too far. When individuals voice concern about the way that genders interact in the masjid or how the sisters/brothers dress in the masjid, I take it as a genuine feeling from many that the masjid should be treated with sanctity; it is not the same as going to school, work, or walking down the street. Itรขโฌโขs the house of Allah, and the same way that Allah commands us to be dignified when dealing with one another, the masjid should have an environment that reflects the dignity owed to Allah Azza wa Jal because masajid are referred to as His House.
My understanding has always been that the pro-partition crowd strives to create an atmosphere in the masjid that cultivates modesty between the genders and strives to institute a modus operandi of mutual respect that doesnรขโฌโขt exist outside the masjid walls. In our society, women are routinely objectified and are subject to social pressure that tells them that our faith preaches antediluvian constructs of how to live- hijab and loose clothing being amongst the most commonly attacked today. Partition-seekers simply try to institute social pressure in the opposite direction, attempting to create an environment where people who dress immodestly will feel the need to conform to a dress that is more pleasing to Allah and when they see groups like pray-in, they feel that you all are trying to reverse that effort. That also explains why the arguments typically revolve around clothing.
I think in time weรขโฌโขll see more masjids without partitions, but thereรขโฌโขll always be a segment of our community that will ardently stick to a partition, and rather than seeing that as backwards or gender repressive, we should welcome it as a sign of our diversity. The larger issues have been mentioned, and it appears that everyone agrees with you on them- access to the imam, greater educational opportunities, etc.
Protests will invariably make your group media sweethearts, because it confirms all of the negative stereotypes that people love to associate with Islam. Iรขโฌโขm sure you can appreciate how that would make muslims on the outside of pray-in feel, especially those who regularly attend communities you all are so intent on publicly humiliating.
As for the Gaza point, I think the generalization is a bit unfair. There are a ton of coalitions out there, muslims continue to donate to relief agencies, and we are making strides in affecting public opinion. InshaAllah this weekend thereรขโฌโขs a prayer in front of the White House for the victims of the Flotilla incident being led by a Jewish groups. Muslims reps will also be in attendance. These are all steps, and inshaAllah one day weรขโฌโขll see an amicable resolution that allows dignity and security for both the Palestinians and Israelis.
And Allah Knows Best.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 4:50 PM
Many excellent points to reflect and ponder upon for some time, jazak’Allah khayr and thanks for clearing up that misconception about the original design or early use issues in your community.
darthvaider
June 8, 2010 at 5:23 PM
wa eeyaki, and jazaaki Allah khayr for taking the time to track all the comments and giving them thought. May Allah guide us all to what pleases Him, Azza wa Jal. Ameen.
Hassan Adnan
June 7, 2010 at 9:21 AM
Assalam O Alikum,
Sister Ify Okoye, I agree with the importance of women attendance at the House of Allah. For women should need to know about the Islamic knowledge that is atleast fard for her to know. In this regard the House of Allah needs to revive as the center of Islamic knowledge and its propagation.
I came across an article by Sheikh Imran Hosein named WOMEN IN THE HOUSE OF ALLAH. Which emphasizes on such Women needs.
But in regards to your dealing with the how men are affecting the granting of equal position to the women interms of their participation is a little distort of the matter. There can be many settlements that can be reached in order for women participation other than a strong visual place. Because it is to be understood that the aim behind her attendance is to gain knowledge and to have a congregational opportunity among other sisters. And not to herald upon a personal presence at the mosque and at a point of available visibilty to everyone. We should have Fear of Allah in this regard.
It is most agreeable that men should lower their gazes in the situation where women are granted equal visible position, but as Amad in his comment pointed out it will only put impurity in the essence of the gathering at the mosque which and would call for Fitna (Trial) among both sexes. This is gathering is not to be taken as a means of judging Taqwa, but we should rather hold to preserve the dignity of the place more important. And thus women in this regard to take responsibility in keeping the fitna to the minimum by taking a place most suitable.
I therefore request that the goals of this Organization of your to be very carefully crafted in this special regards. Rest it is a wonderful idea in terms of having such a women platform for putting forward women issues to the community.
JazakAllah khair.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 8:59 PM
Wa salaam alaykum Br. Hassan,
As one often relegated to the less favorable space and behind the partition, I can tell you there is much fitna contained therein as well. Men and women come to the masjid for many reasons, not only to seek knowledge and not only for prayer. How about both women and men take responsibility for keeping fitna to a minimum?
Hassan Adnan
June 8, 2010 at 12:13 AM
Assalam O Alikum, JazakAllah for your reply.
Just Follow the Sunnah in regards to the congregational praying for men and women. And donot bring other innovations above it, even if it doesnt satisfies anybody else or yourself. รขโฌลO you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those of you [Muslims] who are in authority; and if you have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.รขโฌย
[Surah An-Nisa (4), Ayah 59.]
“But no, by your Lord they cannot have faith untill they make you (Muhammad) judge in all disputes among themselves and find themselves in no resistance against your decision and accept them with full submission.” [Surah An-Nisa (4), Ayah 65.]”
Momin are those who say“We, hear, and we obey,รขโฌย Surah Al-Baqarah (2), Ayah 285. And use Hikmah in minimizing the Fitna. And you have a great responsibilty in being the Caller to this matter, so donot follow any vain desires but the Sunnah. And its better to come to common terms than enforcing personal point of views.
The fact that I am from Pakistan and not a part of your community limits me in taking a detailed account, I can only advice. JazakAllah khair.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 4:52 PM
Wa salaam alaykum,
Wa iyakkum. How are is the situation for women in the masajid in Pakistan?
Hassan Adnan
June 9, 2010 at 10:51 AM
Assalam O Alikum,
You dont want to know about that! I would call women at your place blessed interms of being atleast granted what Islam has for them. Here things are more of culturally enforced rather than enforced by religion. It is almost a taboo that women visit the Mosque, only exception is the Eid, which too happens only in two or three big Mosques. Pray that things come in alignment to what Allah and His Messenger likes. Pray Allah SWT changes the hearts of the people here. JazakAllah khair.
Mezba
June 7, 2010 at 9:58 AM
Perhaps those who are complaining about the company sister Ify’s organization is keeping should look to themselves. One has made the requirement that woman should dress like black crows before being allowed into the mosque. That apparently is the sunnah. I did not know the Prophet dressed like a black crow. Another has said a one way mirror is fine (apparently that too was there in the time of the Prophet). While another has said the men not speaking to the women is an insult to the men (the mind boggles).
Amad
June 7, 2010 at 10:22 AM
It is interesting you have nitpicked only few of the “spicy” blurbs and ignored most of the very reasonable questions and comments. Do you want to try to answer the questions or issues raised or are you here just to mock others beliefs?
Zulander
June 7, 2010 at 11:11 AM
I agree with Amad. It’s also interesting to hear how you don’t believe Aisha radiAllahu ‘anha (the Prophets salAllahu alayhi wasalam wife) statement of how women dressed. No one said that the Prophet salAllahu alayhi wasalamdressed like a crow. In case you missed it, the analogy was given because women during the lifetime of the Prophet salAllahu alayhi wasalam dressed in dark clothing covering their entire awrah.
Mezba
June 7, 2010 at 1:40 PM
Why are they ‘spicy’? They are how it seems a sizable portion of the population sadly thinks here.
Yes, the belief that women must be dressed as ‘black crows’ and only then can they be allowed entry to the mosque has to be mocked. Mocked such that no one even sports such a ridiculous idea again.
As for the reasonable questions and comments, that is for the author of the post to rebut.
Zulander
June 7, 2010 at 2:16 PM
So the statement of the Prophet’s wife should be mocked? No one here stated that women need to dress like that, someone was making a reference to how the salaf dressed. And even if someone did use it as proof, at least they referenced the proof with evidence (unlike your statements).
Ahmad AlFarsi
June 7, 2010 at 5:45 PM
I find mockery to be the least intellectual, most destructive way of responding to anything. Not that I, or anyone on this post, has espoused the idea that women must be dressed that way (as another brother pointed out, that was simply a description of the women at the time of the Prophet SAWS). But to even hint at mocking the statement of one of the Prophet’s wives (may Allah be pleased with them all) speaks volumes about one who would do so. The wives of the Prophet are the mothers of the believers…
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 9:04 PM
Might I add, as a sister, I have heard that manner of dress repeatedly praised as being optimal or the only correct way to dress from minbars, in classrooms, in-person, online, in books, etc. And many men and women do take that as the gospel.
Ahmad AlFarsi
June 8, 2010 at 12:05 PM
Allow me to clarify, I meant to say that no one here said that “women should be dressed to look like black crows otherwise, they will not be allowed to go to the masajid.”
I was not intending to discuss the obligation of jilbab (which the evidence indeed indicates its obligatory nature) nor did I intend to discuss the preference in covering with a larger abaya.
If the mother of the believers regarded that way of dressing as praiseworthy, then perhaps that should give us reason to reflect on the optimality of such a manner of dress.
MW_M
June 7, 2010 at 2:54 PM
No, I believe these were invented much later, I think in the 20th century actually. Perhaps you can show me where you found that they had them at the time of the Prophet (Sallahu ‘Alayhi wa Salaam)?
Sr. Naseeba’s post sums it up pretty well
The sisters I’ve dealt with prefer the one way mirror for a myriad of reasons, especially the last two Sr. Naseeba pointed out.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 9:06 PM
MW_M: I dislike the two-way mirror barrier for some of the reasons I’ve mentioned already in the comments and in other posts so now you can add me to the sisters you’ve dealt with category, insha Allah.
Just passing by
June 7, 2010 at 9:28 PM
It seems that people have offered many ideas and suggestions (second floor, one-way glass, second rooms, set aside time women can meet with the Imam, etc.), and most of them have been rejected or you dislike them.
Is this methodology from the Sunnah?
Did Allah, All-Knowing, not create a methodology of gradual change?
Why now shall we have it my way or the highway? Don’t we want constructive discussion? It seems you have taken a lot of time, sister Ify, to respond to many of these points but I think it is time to also take a step back (as opposed to debating) and consider that not all communities are at the same level, not all at the same place, not all having the same discussions and therefore for some the second floor is a great move forward so that women have a space. And, that may not be the same for another masjid. This, I believe, is a method with wisdom and gradual change we are taught in the Sunnah. And, Allah knows best.
However, it seems clear at this point the style of the responses are not constructive but are in the manner of a debate – do you feel that is the best way to raise this issue?
All the best.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 12:11 AM
I think you’ve misunderstood, I don’t have a problem with setting aside time with the imam nor am I opposed to gradual change, what I am opposed to criticism without action. Claiming to care or support the issues is of little use when we help perpetuate them or at least are not even open to discussion.
Zulander
June 7, 2010 at 10:35 AM
assalaamu alaikum,
Can we please get the daleel that if a sister prays more than a few lines away from the men her salaah isn’t acceptable? Logistically this isn’t very pragmatic. Many lines are completed after the salah has begun, so what should the brothers do if the sisters are in their lines? Pray behind them?
Also, I don’t see how women’s dress isn’t a valid criticism. Have you seen the way sisters dress? Sure you can tell me to lower my gaze and that’s something that has to happen for sure, but just as you ask me to lower my gaze I ask that women dress properly. Women’s dress usually plays a huge role in whether or not people are actually lowering their gaze.
I understand why the request to remove these barriers comes from, but if a masjid such as Dar al-Hijrah has had them for over 15 years and can’t feasibly reconstruct the masjid for such a request then just leave it be. Why must every masjid be held hostage to these requests?
Lastly you mention prayer in accordance to the “Sunnah”. Prayer according to the Sunnah for women has been recorded as รขโฌหThe best mosque for the women is the inside of her homeรขโฌโข (Musnad Ahmad: vol. VI, p. 297). You also mentioned the sunnah with regards to what lines the sisters should pray in as well. However it is also from the Sunnah to grant access to women who chose to pray at the masjid. If you really wanted to pray in accordance to the sunnah, then one must ask why aren’t you? For some reason it seems like the agenda for such a movement really isn’t about praying in accordance to the sunnah.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 9:20 PM
Wa salaam alaykum Zulander,
While I do not subscribe to the view of the issue for which you are requesting daleel, Dr. Muzzamil Siddiqui said as much in his fatwa republished in the latest edition of the Muslim Link and also available on Islam-Online.
Have you seen the way men dress? Do we put these men behind barriers or in separate rooms or exclude from coming to the masjid. I addressed the issue of women’s dress in one of the earlier comments and Dr. Mattson addresses the hadith of Aisha in her lecture, you may want to read it.
As for DAH, the imam invited the women to pray behind the men, it’s on videotape at a Pray In panel discussion, he was informed the women intended to take him up on his offer and he consented but when they showed up, previous unknown stipulations quickly sprouted up. The masajid are not being being held hostage, that’s a bit too dramatic, even for me, rather we are asking to engage in discussion.
I’m not always in my home, in my penalty box post, I was just leaving the botanical gardens as the time of maghrib approached on a very cold day, otherwise I would have prayed outside as I find the conditions at the Islamic Center detestable. But since, we are not to be prevented from the masjid and the prayer in the masjid has many intangible benefits, my primary reason to learn to drive when I moved here was so that I could attend the masajid to learn my religion and meet other Muslims, form friendships, and practice my faith with others as my family isn’t Muslim. I was very regular in attending to my five salawat in the masjid as much as possible and even moved twice within walking distance from the masjid so that I could have easier access. Let’s ask ourselves, why would you want to turn someone away from the masjid, if as you have said, you’ve seen how women dress, have you not also seen how our society has a corrupting effect on the hearts? Salah in the masjid and being with the believers is a treasure that many of us neglect even for those upon whom it is obligatory.
Man
June 7, 2010 at 12:03 PM
We have Masjid where the sisters have their own separate large nice hall behind the brothers area, and they can also pray in the back of the brothers area, and there are small knee high symbolic “barriers” for this. They almost invariable choose to pray in their own room, I think they appreciate the privacy.
The important part isn’t sharing the area, but providing a spacious, clean and welcoming women’s area, which alhamdolilah is true for most masajid I have seen
Siraaj
June 7, 2010 at 12:18 PM
Unfortunately, this article suffers from being a hodge-podge of emotionally-charged rebuttals based on the author’s perspective and not the Pray In group’s agenda (which is yet to be fully articulated).
I don’t think you need a new masjid – I think you need a new group representing the views you’ve presented minus the progressives and right-leaning media outlets they brown-nose.
You also need to acknowledge the arguments that are legitimate from “the other side” – yes, men need to lower their gaze, and if everyone in every masjid did so, the women still need to dress properly before entering, and therefore I would encourage the group to not only work on fixing the issue on the “male” side of the equation, but on the “female” side of the equation as well – I suspect many of your far left members will balk at being told to wear a hijab.
Finally, you may like to check the authenticity of the story you quoted about ‘Umar – I recall there being some weakness in this story (or one similar) from a reading many years ago (and so I don’t have or remember the reference, sorry).
Siraaj
Justin
June 7, 2010 at 1:55 PM
I agree. The story of Umar being corrected by a women is mentioned in the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir in the verses about dowry. As far as I know it is authentic and it is a good story because it shows Umar was humble enough to accept the truth from a woman, even though he was Caliph. Which 7th century pope would defer his judgment to a woman?
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
June 7, 2010 at 3:27 PM
Justin, do not assume that because someone questions the authenticity of a narration that they have a problem with its meaning. That is obviously the methodology of progressive Muslims, who quote ayah and hadith when they think they like their meaning but reject them when they do not like their meaning. That is not what Siraaj was doing. Of course the story has a good meaning, that’s why it is such a famous story, but that doesn’t make it authentic necessarily.
I don’t know the details of its origins at all, but according to these notes which are posted on Salim Morgan’s website and are from the Fiqh of Marriage class from American Open University and are written by Shaykh Jamal Zarabozo, the incident with Umar being corrected by the woman regarding mahr is indeed NOT authentic.
If Shaykh Yasir Qadhi reads this thread, maybe he can let us know the details of this issue (the authenticity of this narration.)
Allaah knows best.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
June 7, 2010 at 3:32 PM
And Justin you are also right that Ibn Kathir not only includes this narration but explicitly says it is authentic.
And Allaah Knows Best.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
June 7, 2010 at 3:34 PM
And here is the link to the notes on Fiqh of Marriage from Salim Morgan’s site attributed to Jamal Zarabozo.
Justin
June 7, 2010 at 3:57 PM
Thank you for the link to the notes. I am certainly not a hadith expert so I have no ability to judge the chain. Ibn Kathir seems to accept the narration and it is a famous hadith, so for that reason I accept the tradition.
I think the confusion is over definitions and terminology. Different madhab have different terms (i.e. is it daeef, hasan, hasan sahih, sahih hasan, or sahih?). I think what we agree upon is that Omar did NOT prohibit a man from paying more for the dowry if he wanted to. He was merely advising them to not consider a high dowry as part of taqwa. The high dowry in our times causes great hardship for people. Giving more in charity is one thing, but demanding a high dowry is NOT taqwa. That seems to be the point of the narration. Second, I like this tradition because it shows that Omar had great respect for women and their point of view. I think, in that sense, it is very relevant to the topic we are discussing.
I am also skeptical of so-called “progressive” movements because they often lack a foundation in traditional Islamic sciences. I think some of their concerns are legitimate but their methods can be harmful (i.e. soaking up negative media attention).
Allah knows best.
(It looks like the frequency of your comments is triggering a WP spam filter, Justin. So, please continue to be patient in case your comments do not appear immediately. Jazak Allah khayr — MM)
Zulander
June 7, 2010 at 2:20 PM
Very well said masha’Allah.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 9:28 PM
Siraaj: I don’t think we need a new group but were we to start one, would you join in? I’ve actually found women to be most amenable to observing what others consider proper hijab for them and the brothers to be the least amenable to having anyone ask them or tell them about their dress. I have a few examples in mind but am not sure I could find a way to share them in an anonymous way.
Dr. Mattson quoted the story in her lecture, if you find anything to substantiate your statement let me know, yet the point still stands there was no partition and men and women did see each other and were able to not commit zina openly in the masjid as often seems to be the implication that our brothers will simply not be able to control themselves if women are present.
Siraaj
June 7, 2010 at 10:14 PM
If the sisters want no wall as in the time of the Prophet, then they need to dress as the women did in that time as well. If they will not shield themselves either due to ignorance or stubbornness, then it becomes a simple game of fiqh-and-choose for the sake of convenience.
There’s a conservative Imam in South Carolina who holds that the partition is a bid’ah. When I asked him, how do you deal with sisters who don’t come dressed properly, he said the first time it happens, they are told the proper way to dress, and the second time it happens, they are forbidden from the premises until they get it right.
I’m happy to tell brothers to tear down the wall if you’ll be just as adamant in telling the sisters to put on their clothes and wipe off the make-up.
Siraaj
Siraaj
June 8, 2010 at 6:05 AM
Regarding the story, here is what I found online from something attributed to Shaykh JZ:
If someone can verify the references, would be greatly appreciated :)
Siraaj
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 5:11 PM
Alhamdulillah and jazak’Allah khayr for the reference. Although, I don’t know about this masjid bouncer position, Siraaj. Our obligations and sunnahs are important but as many of us here agree, it requires hikmah. For me, the issue is complicated because I know I’ve seen good brothers and sisters that were seeking to come closer to Allah be turned away from their communities over relatively “minor” issues like that of dress and some of them left Islam. And when I first converted, my conception or implementation of what I considered for myself to be “proper hijab” or the best I could do is not the same as my conception or implementation today.
People are on journeys of submission in this life. Just as Allah revealed the verses of hijab and alcohol after the hearts were fortified, I too do not believe in beating people over the head about their dress before even getting to know them. I’ve seen many sisters take on full hijab and niqab and abayah and fall out of Islam. So of what use was the clothing when there no firm iman in the heart. I don’t mind telling people what I have learned and consider to be proper dress for men or women but I’m not sure I buy the argument that that is essentially tied to ability to come to, have adequate and decent space, and participation in the masjid.
Abd- Allah
June 8, 2010 at 9:59 PM
Yes, that story about Umar may Allah be pleased with him being corrected in public by that woman is NOT authentic, and Shaykh al-Albani rahimahullah has shown that in this article, and indicated that it is not authentic.
Sister Ify, if you can please take this story out from your post so that people don’t end up spreading it around when it isn’t authentic, and also taking it out doesn’t really take away from the post itself. I would really appreciate it, thank you!
As for the pray in movement, my advice would be to re-organize things whereby you have a well defined set of realistic goals as well as have one person who is in charge of leading this group, this way it is more efficient and affective in achieving things. Having a shura system is good, but there has to be one leader (such as a credible shaykh) for the group in order for it to be efficient and get support from the community. The other important thing is to have a well defined set of goals which the group aims to achieve, this way it will be easier for people to decide whether they support what this group stands for or not. The fact that the goals so far are very general and are thus prone to being abused by certain types of people who have their own agenda makes some people skeptical of what this group really is about and who is running things. The goals are general and don’t mention specifically what mode of action or approach will be taken and what are the specific ways that will be used in order to achieve those goals. So to get support from the community, the group needs a credible leader as well as well defined goals which can’t be abused by some people or hijacked for their own motives. The goals set now sound great, but they are very general and leave much room for them to be abused by certain types of people. I would suggest that the goals are narrowed down as much as possible and made very specific so that they aren’t abused for other agendas, and this way those who are in this group for other motives than what you have stated, they will not have room to further their own agenda, and are thus less likely to be part of the group to begin with. This way more people will support the group if it is well defined because now people are cautious not to support anything which is vague or very general and could be taken in any direction.
The other thing is that aside from the prayer area and the facilities at the masaajid for women which need to be addressed, but the issue of being marginalized and not included in the discussions and decision-making of the community is not something that only women face. Men are also marginalized in that sense, and the decisions and plans are all made by very few people who run the masaajid such as the board members. I have been praying at my local masjid on a regular basis for years but I have never participated in, nor even seen, these community discussions which you want women to take part in. Most of the times, these discussions and the community decisions are made by few people in their private meetings behind doors. So in a way, men overall need to be included in these discussions as well and be included in the “community” (or lack of a community thereof). This issue faces our entire community and not just the sisters who are being excluded from the community. It applies to men, women, children, the youth, and every single person because they all are not being included because of the way our communities are set up, and this is not something limited to the sisters only. So perhaps a more general approach and a more inclusive one whereby the issue of the community being inclusive to everyone whereby all the members of the community participate and voice their opinion is addressed, and not limit it to being inclusive of the women, because the brothers who aren’t being included in the community can do nothing about the fact that sisters aren’t being included either.
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 10:32 AM
Br Abd-Allah: Excellent points, we’ve been working to come up with a focused and detailed mission and vision statement, it’s a work in progress, insha’Allah.
I posted today in the News & Views category a commentary by a sister regarding a study conducted in England rating masajid on their “women-friendliness,” very interesting initiative. And yes, it’s true men and women are both sometimes excluded or disenfranchised from our communities. I guess I should say I’d love to see not just women-friendly mosques but community-friendly ones as well.
I’m not sure I’ll delete that narration from the post but I have no problem adding a disclaimer that it has been classified as a weak tradition because even narrations with some weakness can be narrated if the points don’t contradict the Quran and Sunnah.
And Allah knows best.
Mombeam
June 7, 2010 at 12:55 PM
as-salaamu `alaykum, some thoughts
;
I find it very disheartening that no matter what, when this issue comes up, people want to raise the issue of “well, the Sunnah is for women to pray at home, see that’s what the Hadeeth says”. I really would like to see a scholar address this issue, as I heard many years ago from a scholar that there are actually TWO authentic versions of that Hadeeth, one which says “mar’ah” (women) and the other says “mar’ ” (man/human being).
That said, I can’t believe it needs to be said again that trying to force women to accept either total segregation or staying at home as the only two options is dangerous. Some of you need to step back and realize what women are asking for here– not money, not dunya, not a change in the basic fundamental rules of our deen, but the right to pray and gain knowledge in the most serious and fully participating way possible. Would you all rather see women totally disinterested in praying and seeking knowledge? Is that your ideal “Sunnah society” where the men get together at the masjid and the women all stay home and do what now….? Watch TV? Obsess over their clothes and makeup? Cook? Do the benefits of praying in jam`aah and attending classes of deeni knowledge not apply to women? Are you men all interested in being the ones to volunteer YOUR home when you’ve just come home from work and your wife wants to host a jam`aah or a halaqah or whatever in the home and wants to kick you out to protect the modesty of those women who will enter YOUR home? I’m sure you will all decline. Or are we now talking about the idea of women having their own masjids? Would you pay for that? Probably not. So we’re back to where we started.
If you truly want women to pray at home or in total segregation, are you prepared for the “exodus” (as I think Umm Zaid had put it in one of the links above) of people from the masjid and maybe even Islam (na`uudhu bi l-laah) because of such a harsh policy? I know of people who have left Islam just so they could go to a church, stand in the back and pray. Not in front of the men, not with them, behind them, in the same room. They also wanted to be able to work on church activities and charitable organizations– not the “women’s one” but the *community one”. I have also had difficulty getting non-Muslim friends interested in becoming Muslim because they do not want to leave the community in their church where they feel like they are part of the greater group.
No the issue is not about simply having a clean space only. It is not about being able only to see the Imam through a barrier. It is about being able to FEEL like a part of a COMMUNITY that worships Allah together. It is about not having to rely on an electrical system with all its potential failures to know at what point the congregation is in the prayer. It is about being able to interact with speakers when necessary. It is about (as another commenter pointed out) the need to keep the CHILDREN (because the women aren’t the only ones back there) aware of the importance of the masjid and to teach them to also fully participate and respect. It is also about respect– if the barrier was removed, the women who sit in the back and talk wouldn’t be able to do it as easily. It is about not feeling like you have to listen to and participate in the Friday prayer without feeling like you’re not really there, you’re in a cage or a box somewhere else.
Balconies are not a solution, either. Kids run up and down the stairs and act like crazy people upstairs. The elderly and sick can’t access it easily. Since the kids mess around with the elevator (if availble) it is usually locked and difficult to access. And even up in the balcony, because of the sense of separateness many women still start to talk. I have seen everything I just mentioned at Dar al-Hijrah by the way. I have especially watched elderly, crippled women struggling up the stairs (which are often littered with shoes and thus that much more dangerous) because the elevator is out of order or locked or whatever.
Finally, I do not necessarily support the group being mentioned here for the reasons others have stated. I think that the presence of Asra Nomani in that group, considering the things she has written about Dar Al-Hijrah for example make her both a liability and a stain on the group’s credibility. I also don’t support their methodology because it is not from within the community. When somebody comes from outside the particular community it will only serve to antagonize things. Although I would LOVE to see the barrier come down at my mosque (and I know others in our community who feel the same), I know that it may take another generation before there are enough people in the community who can form a sizeable majority who would wish to see things changed. I don’t want somebody like this group coming in, making a scene, and then forever tarnishing the idea of women praying in the main hall without a barrier to such an extent that it will probably delay the removal of that barrier by a good decade longer than it will already take.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
June 7, 2010 at 3:41 PM
Mombeam,
It is natural that if those opposing partitions present their arguments as being “the sunnah,” people will mention the hadith about prayer for women being better at home.
Other than that, I found your comments very beautiful. May Allaah reward you. I think we have to be creative in finding solutions. For big masajid that have the resources to build such masajid I had always thought that balconies were a good solution, but you are right that it is not perfect.
I think if people are united in the desire to have both men and women able to pray comfortably in the mosque with the imam while still observing gender separation than we can work together to find another solution. I do think that one thing that holds us back is when people feel that others in the discussion have separate agendas either to put down or exclude women or to move towards having women lead the prayer or eliminate gender separation. When one doesn’t trust that others really have the same agenda, it can be hard to work together.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 9:47 PM
Wa salaam alaykum Mombeam, excellent points overall, I must correct one thing. We were not trying to change DAH but rather we were invited there by the Imam at one of our Pray In panel discussion in April. I’ve also seen elderly and disable women struggling to make it up the stairs at many masajid including DAH. I was just there the week before the Pray In and I spent about 15 minutes with an elderly Arab woman as she tried to access the women’s section. For years, I was a regular at DAH, even as I was living in Maryland, not minding the commute up and down the beltway and invariably getting stuck in traffic on the way there and on the way back.
I, too know people who left Islam or declined to enter Islam for reasons relating to women’s treatment in our communities.
In all of the other communities, our first recourse is to seek dialogue with those within the community. We are currently talking to several communities, all of which we frequent and have met with varying results. Although, I don’t necessarily think that because a person is not considered “from” a community, I mean what differentiates that, that they cannot have a say or a voice. Yes, it may be more effective coming from a regular attendee and who knows what that is as many love to tell us we should only pray at home.
I’m part of a number of groups not because I like or agree with every single person within the group but because the issues are right and I believe in working to rectify the issues.
Naureen
June 7, 2010 at 12:57 PM
I dont have any problem with women praying in the same prayer space as the men.
What *strikes* me is the following:
-the tone of the article and mostly of the people who try to do something ‘new’, is usually very condescending, while they talk about the sunnah.The sunnah is to be gentle. cuz one person is ‘violent’ evveryone having the same view is violent as well?
-Why is it that we are picking and choosing the sunnahs?
*It is sunnah to not have partition
*It is sunnah to have separate entrances for women and men to the masjid
*It is sunnah that women leave the prayer space first before the men(logically w/ the cleansed hearts of the beleivers in our day we will end up with mixing in about 5 seconds).
*It is sunnah that the women be covered like dark crows and (were not recognized)
If the hearts of the people of this organization are yearning to follow the SUNNAH, they will be happy to do the above.
However, I FEAR that the issue isn’t really about women having a clean equal-access space. The real underlying issue is that women feel they wana be just like men in all ways to feel they are treated equal because men and women both have made the treatment of men to be the ‘standard’ unfortunately.
So while yes, we can DEFINITELY do much to IMPROVE the women’s prayer space, I fear that if the hearts are not sincere, they will NOT BE SATISFIED W/ THE SUNNAH.
Sorry for the caps.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 9:52 PM
Naureen, okay about the tone, but honestly to be in this business in our communities, one has to be a bit tough otherwise you will not be able to handle the insults, curses, and abuse from the haterade brigade. And we all pick and choose sunnah, is it not sunnah to begin your comment with a salam? And no, it is not our agenda to be just like men, we like being women but we don’t believe being a woman means being relegated to basements and balconies and behind partitions that enshrine our exclusion from participating in the life of the community.
Naureen
June 8, 2010 at 2:56 AM
Ify, thankyou for your reminder for starting my comment with a salam.
Assalama’laykum. (As a side note, one should assume their brother/sister in islam forgot and you don’t have to be so direct. In all honesty I just forgot. Perhaps this is the mistake. You guys are assuming you have to be so ‘tough’. The Prophet changed ALOT but he wasn’t tough to the point of rudeness with people.) I think you may end up loosing supports because of the methods you all are employing in this movement.
I feel that you didn’t really respond to my comment. I think its totaly cool that women and men pray together because as you said this is the sunnah and this is what the pray in movement wants. I’m cool w/ that. Its sunnah.
My point was that if the issue is to follow the sunnah, then all the sunnahs around that issue need to be followed otherwise what you will get is a very different result from what Islam seeks. This is what I would like to know your views on.
On a completely different note, I was very involved in dawah work in certains organizations during my college years, and I noticed with my very own two eyes the weird tendency for sisters to get SO worked up emotionally over issues that they literally could not see reason anymore and instead of using brothers as their supporters in the cause, they basically alienated the brothers with their rudeness while al the while thinking that they were the victims.
I think there’s a lot of similarity between my experience and what i’m seeing here. A person who really believes in their cause and its right does not need to get rude, condenscending, defensive. Instead cool respectful resolve, dua, and working with other people cooperatively using effective communication methods could solve an issue like this. Honestly this simply isn’t an issue of such magnitude that it has to be dealt with in the MANNER its being treated.
I think there’s something really weird and sneaky about saying its sunnah to have one prayer space and then when ppl say its also sunnah to dress modestly and have separate entrances to the musallah, to turn around and say ‘u just want to have women not come to the masjid and prevent them’. the response is like ‘um excuse me. yur the one who wanted to follow the sunnah’. so what’s the issue now?
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 5:25 PM
Wa salaam alaykum Naureen,
Commenting on forums and blogs is a slightly unusual format so I don’t make a big issue of the salam but since you mentioned how we should be all following all the sunnahs, I thought it relevant to the discussion just to answer your point with a clear example. It wasn’t meant to embarrass or humiliate you, simply this is the medium of discourse here.
You’d like my views on observing all of the sunnahs relating to praying in the masjid? The question seems overly broad so I’m not sure what you are asking exactly from saying the dua when walking or driving to the masjid to praying 2 rakah of tahiyyutal masjid to women praying behind men to….? Or something more specific? I like the sunnah and try to implement many of them on a daily basis.
Naureen, I have heard many people try to belittle these issues because they may not be important to them but they are important to me, I’d invite you to read some of my other writings on the subject or those linked to in the article from Umm Zaid and the sister Fiona in New Zealand who found no place at all in her local masjid thus she prayed fajr outside on a mountaintop. While it may not be important to you, I’m pretty sure if you are willing to read and listen with an open mind and heart, you’ll have a better understanding of why these issues are vital important to some of us. I think we’d all do well (including me) by making fewer assumptions.
And for the record, I don’t have a problem with separate equitable entrances or modest dress.
Abรยป Mรยปsรยข Al-รกยธยคabashรยฎ
June 8, 2010 at 10:37 PM
Excellent point.
Ify, her point is regarding all of the sunnah’s regarding women praying in the mosque. She mentioned some very pertinent examples such as women being covered and men waiting for them to leave before they get up themselves. Is Pray In pushing for those sunnah’s as well, or just the barrier issue?
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 10:58 AM
Salaam Abรยป Mรยปsรยข Al-รกยธยคabashรยฎ,
I answered this question in a response to a similar question posed by Siraaj, yesterday, just as a matter of time, do you think you can do a search for his name here in the comments to find it? Otherwise, I can try to dig it up and repost for you, insha Allah.
AsimG
June 7, 2010 at 1:19 PM
People who are much smarter than me have expressed my opinions in a more articulate matter.
…This tends to happen a lot
Sayf
June 7, 2010 at 2:39 PM
You just expressed my opinion in a more articulate manner!
=D}
Justin
June 7, 2010 at 1:34 PM
As-Salaamu Alaykum,
I really empathize with women who are not given their full rights in Islam. However, I think it is a very bad idea to go to the media. Anyone who is paying attention to the media will know that the issue of Islam and women is, other than violence, the most important issue used to demonize and stereotype the Muslim community. When you go to the media in this way, it reinforces this stereotype about Islam and Muslims, i.e. that Islam is inherently cruel and unfair to women. This has the potential to do greater damage to our community than you think. I believe it would be better to be patient and to lobby for change in a way that does not attract negative attention to the community. Please consider this point.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
June 7, 2010 at 3:45 PM
I agree with this comment Justin.
Also beyond the notion of airing dirty laundry, organizers of this or any other desire to bring change in our communities should ask how will this lead to the goal I am trying to accomplish?
The watchers of mainstream media, whether right wing or otherwise, are not making decisions in the mosque. How will appealing to them help one’s cause. Is the idea that such people, largely non-Muslim will pressure the imams or boards of mosques to change their policies?
Justin
June 7, 2010 at 4:06 PM
Abu Noor,
This is an excellent point. I do not see how grabbing media attention does anything to further the goal of helping women get their rights. The media are only looking for sensational stories that they can sell; in general, they are not interested in helping reform the Muslim community or any other community. They are a profit-driven business. While there are many good-hearted and fair journalists, the business itself is about profit, so in that sense it is inherently biased. Stories are picked for their impact, not the betterment of society.
I think it would be better for them to write letters, organize lectures, collect petitions, etc. all low-key grassroots events which could help change people’s minds “on the ground.” Most importantly, we have to maintain our Islamic manners and etiquette. Certainly, it is not good character to bring accusations, name-calling, and “dirty laundry” to the attention of the media. The Prophet (pbuh) said, “Whoever covers the faults of a Muslim, Allah will cover his faults on the Day of Judgment.”
I hope the author of this article will consider some of the constructive criticism put forth in these posts.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 10:02 PM
Abu Noor & Justin, honestly it is only because of media attention that this issue has garnered so much interest in my community as of late and it has opened many doors of discussions previously closed to us with masjid leadership or regular people in the community. Previously, it was very difficult to even get a meeting or appointment to talk, now people are coming to us asking to talk or telling us what they’ve recently decided to improve conditions. Media attention has made a world of difference, why? I’m not sure, I don’t think they fear non-Muslim pressure although maybe they do but they certainly weren’t feeling any pressure to respond beforehand.
And allow me to inform you Justin but we have utilized numerous methods of engagement but the only one that gets wide attention is obviously the pray-in protests. We have had countless discussions with people in different communities, written articles i.e. this one here is an example and many more examples on my blog or the Facebook group, had a panel discussion about the issues, etc.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
June 7, 2010 at 10:26 PM
Again Ify, if there was a masjid where you or any sister was regularly attending and helping out at the masjid and you asked to meet with the board or imam and they refused to meet with you then that is a major problem which goes far beyond even the important issue of women’s prayer space.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 12:05 AM
Yes, and that has happened to me and to other sisters within Pray in, repeatedly.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 9:58 PM
Wa salaam alaykum Justin,
I hear you, yet I also know the pain of encountering the lie of how women are really treated in our community despite what is the texts and our history, the current state of affairs is enough to turn away all but the most ardent. Pretending like it doesn’t exist or it doesn’t matter or not doing anything to try to rectify the situation has caused me immense spiritual harm over the years until I finally found and regained my voice and my courage.
I wrote this in a post debunking the Muslim Link article on my blog:
Naseebah
June 7, 2010 at 2:16 PM
The sunnah shows the means used to separate men and women in the salaat were various:
– by women praying at home,
-by physical spacing (women behind men),
-by separating barrier (children),
– by sight (women don’t look up until men have stood back up after the sujood, men and women looking down at place of sujood throughout the prayer),
– by women’s anonymity (in hadith of women arriving to prayer at fajr by dark so they are not recognized, women dressing as dark crows),
– and by timing (women leaving immediately after the salaat and before men get up to leave).
The intent was clearly to separate men and women in the salaat through a variety of means.
The curtain or separate area actually does fulfill the wisdom of the sunnah in
– demarcating dedicated space for women to pray (i.e. not only not preventing females from the masjid but affirmatively marking off permanent space for them),
– by providing physical space separation,
– by providing sight separation,
– providing women’s anonymity,
– and additionally allowing flexibility and ease in the matter of timing so both genders can move at their own pace while leaving the masjid without mixing.
The curtain and/or barrier are added forms that achieve the sunnah — like a microphone used to call the adhan or make the khutbah heard throughout the masjid. The microphone was not in the prophet’s (pbuh) time, was it?
Are some sisters going to rip the microphone out of the khatib’s hand?
It does not make sense to 1) cause a community fitnah and spread the fitnah through the media around the globe, 2) disobey the prayer imam and shout at the imam of the masjid after adhan has been called, and perhaps most importantly, 3) disrupt the fard salah in the house of Allah in order to implement a sunnah whose intent is already being fulfilled, or perhaps worse yet, 4) all to make a symbolic, theoretical point about women’s general ill treatment throughout the world and lack of access to leadership.
The fact of protesting around the salaat itself- arguing and disobeying the imam in the fard salaat in congregation in the masjid at the prayer’s appointed time, when the adhan or even iqamah has been called and all the believers are awaiting the opening “Allahu Akbar” to worship their Creator — is not just a tactical difference. This is not an acceptable wrong sisters.
My sincere naseehah -your group needs to please stand down from this tactic.
Middle Ground
June 7, 2010 at 4:55 PM
Salam
How about giving naseehah to the men who force the issue in the first place? Or are they exempt from getting naseehah?
Naseebah
June 7, 2010 at 5:26 PM
No one is forcing these women to actively organize public disruptions of the fard salaah in the masajid which are then broadcast around the world.
To the men is what they are earning, and to the women is what they are earning.
Middle Ground
June 7, 2010 at 5:31 PM
Salam
You miss my point. When the first wrong thing happens, it will lead to a reaction. yet no-one seems to think that the people at the root of the problem should be addressed.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 10:13 PM
Salaam alaykum Naseebah,
I have not denied there should be a separation between women and men nor did I call it an innovation but I do reject some of the ways that separation is implemented. I believe Dr. Mattson aptly answered the charge of creating “fitna”.
I don’t believe anyone shouted at the imam but if voices were raised it was most probably due to the distance between them in order like the microphone to facilitate hearing. The salah was not disrupted but we have had masjid admins and non-Muslim police officers try to and effectively and enthisuatically interrupt the salah of a woman.
No one disobeyed the imam in the salah, he was followed, except for the masjid security brothers who decided rather than join the salah, that the optimum thing to do would be to assault one of our members even though the Imam had explicitly ordered the men to not do so.
Naseebah
June 8, 2010 at 11:08 AM
Assalaamu alaikum,
You are part of a group now, and members of your group have called curtains, barriers, and other forms of separation an innovation. Not only an innovation, but compared the practice to apartheid. But maybe you didn’t refer to it as apartheid.
That is part of the strength of a diverse coalition, is that one member can deny having made a statement or holding a particular point of view, while another member does make that statement. Makes your arguments constantly morphing and slippery.
I’m curious about the “no one wants to dialogue with us” charge. Didn’t the imam of DAH engage in a panel discussion on this topic? Didn’t he welcome in the protestors to the main hall and ask them where to stand? Or maybe you didn’t make that charge, someone else in your group did. Or it wasn’t enough. Or it wasn’t the right kind of dialogue. Or the dialogue didn’t achieve what we wanted.
(Anyway, since you’ve quoted/refer to Dr. Mattson so extensively, I wonder if she has joined Pray In, and whether ISNA has taken official positions on all your group’s diverse stances and methodologies.)
But really, you did disobey the imam and you did disrupt the fard salah in the masjid. No, you did not stop it from eventually happening — but I think you are making that very narrow distinction a justification in your mind for what you have done.
Your group intentionally refuses the directions of the imam and masjid authorities in the establishment of the salaah, knows there will be resistance so brings along the media, all the while planning the use of the fard salaah as a tool for your group’s political objectives. And then you use the ruckus you provoke as more ammunition for your cause. And so on.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 5:49 PM
Wa salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah Naseebah, just about all of the major Muslim organizations in North America including Dr. Mattson and ISNA signed on to a document called Women Friendly Mosques, you may want to read it because that document sets out goals even in its title that we as members of Pray In largely agree to. A certain army major once attended DAH, shall we assume everyone at DAH subscribes to his views, I think not, if we can understand this distinction, I think we can afford Pray In the same level of understanding or maybe not as the case may be.
I mentioned in my post debunking the Muslim Link article as well as here in the comments that I do not subscribe to the view of partitions as an innovation so if you want to argue the point with someone, it might be better to do so with someone who actually holds that opinion. If you’d like I could probably put you in touch with someone who does believe that.
As for your curiosity, the Imam did participate in one of our panel discussions at which he then said he “invites the women to pray behind the men” and so he was called in the week leading up to the pray-in and informed women would take him up on his offer to which he said, “go right ahead.” The women were not invited into the main hall on the Saturday, when they arrived, they were treated hostility even while out in the parking lot before the salah by some brothers. The Imam did not “ask” them where they wanted to stand.
I did not disobey the Imam at all and it amazes me why you continue to make that untrue accusation, perhaps because you really have no idea what went on at all. I remained outside the main hall until the salah commenced, and before the salah, I actually took one of our members around to the sisters’ side as she felt the tension and hostility in the main hall was too much for her liking. After the salah commenced close to the last rakah three men, some associated in an official capacity with the masjid entered the musallah and rather than join the salah, they decided to disobey the imam and harass and assault one of our members.
I haven’t given you all the details because the case is still pending but call me or email me and I’ll give you a fuller and more accurate picture of the events as they unfolded because I had one of the best vantage points in the masjid on that day certainly better than whoever you’re getting your (mis)information from.
Mohammad Sabah
June 8, 2010 at 6:09 PM
Assalam alaykum.
I don’t know the details of the incident that happened but it seems to me that the confrontation could have been avoided with more wisdom and application from both sides. This is exactly the kind of thing that I had alluded to earlier in a different comment on this article when I said that what is important is to look at the greater good and make sure that the situation does not become one of more fitnah. Based on what I have read above in the article, I would advise the sisters who support this organization (pray in?) to take a long, hard look at themselves and their objectives and activities, and find out wise avenues to bring up their case. What I don’t want to happen is for this thing to blow out of proportion and people get emotional and lose focus on what it is that they really set out to achieve. I would advise you and all people who support pray in to be careful that it doesn’t cause more fitnah that it has already. Many of the issues that have been raised (e.g. women’s prayer areas, women’s involvement in community) are known and important problems that have to be addressed – no one is denying that. However where wisdom is needed is how you approach them. I cannot overemphasize the point that you should look at the greater good of the Ummah. Many of these issues are best resolved locally by taking up the matter privately with the local Imam – not by carrying out ‘protests’ and disobeying the Imam, bringing in media and so on. Also we should not be deluded into thinking that one-size-fits-all – like a fatwa on a topic differs depending on the place and time, similarly we should be flexible and not expect all masajids to have the same setup and facilities. There are other important factors that contribute to this e.g. funds, community support.
May Allah guide us all to learn His Beautiful deen of Islam, and grant us wisdom to apply it in our lives.
wasalam.
Abdul-Malik Ryan
June 8, 2010 at 7:13 PM
According to your friend and comrade in this campaign Asra Nomani, apparently that is just what you should do. Not only should you assume other individuals think the same, you should actually take the largest house of Allaah (swt) in a major Metroplitan Area, a place where thousands of people regularly pray to their Lord, contribute and distribute charity, learn about the deen, break their fast in the month of Ramadan, etc. and you should label the entire masjid with insulting names meant to inspire hatred and fear in that place among the general public in a way such that Daniel Pipes or Steven Emerson would be impressed.
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 11:12 AM
Salaam alaykum,
Mohammad Sabah: I know there are many comments but within them, I’ve mentioned I could support a number of situations, not looking for a one-size-fits-all approach but am not as so naรยฏve to think as many people have stated that these issues can simply be resolved by talking to the imam or board who are not always even accessible at all. On social issues, conversations such as these often flourish for a long time in through various media (books, newspapers, radio, television, blogs, surveys, etc) before long and ardently held positions shift.
Abu Noor, guilt by association? Try showing me my words and my actions and not those of others. I remember when I first joined MM someone tried to bash me because something another MM’er had written. I could show you some words by our colleagues, which I don’t support at all, yet we still work together here.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
June 9, 2010 at 4:04 PM
Ify, it’s not about “guilt by association” — my critique is of the Pray in Movement as a a whole, not of you personally. So there would be no reason to limit my observations to only things that you have done or said. This is not a personal disagreement.
mathbooh
June 9, 2010 at 3:29 PM
slm sister.
excellent point.
was salaam
Middle Ground
June 7, 2010 at 2:52 PM
Salam
Well as I see it, when you get to the point where you basically tell the women to sod off out of the masjid, this kind of thing is going to happen. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Things don’t happen in a vacuum. Islam is a balanced deen, when the balance tips one way too much, you are asking for trouble. In this case, it starts with the totally unislamic attitude from many muslim men that a woman should basically have nothing to do with Islam, other than obey her husband, and tell other women to obey their husbands. Wallahi, I once met a desi who was the Amir of a masjid, where the women prayed downstairs, and he gave a jumma khutba saying that women were not welcome in the masjid.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
June 7, 2010 at 4:04 PM
I agree that one could only expect (and actually hope) that the oppression of women in many of our masajid and communities would be met with a reaction or response. And I also agree that its hard for those who are responding to hear people criticizing the way they are responding or who they are working with when it doesn’t seem like those people critiquing this method are doing anything on their own.
But that shouldn’t stop you, Sister Ify, or those who agree with you, from thinking long and hard about whether what you are doing will really lead to the solution you are looking for (as I’m sure you have).
One thing I think should be really highlighted in this thinking process is that less emphasis should be placed on the symptom and more placed on the underlying causes. Addressing symptoms is important but should not be the priority when one is in as critical a condition as the American Muslim community — especially many of our masajid.
It seems that having women involved in the life of our mosques, having an ability to learn and have services which meet their needs, including social, human services, etc. is the deeper issue. Regardless of what we try inshAllah to implement in our own lives, for the vast vast majority of Muslims in America, men and women, a place for the daily salah is not the primary function or importance of the mosque to their lives.
I sometimes wonder when I hear sister Ify talking about being cut off from the imam, if she or others think that the majority of brothers are just palling around with the imam all the time. Most Muslim men feel just as cut off from their communities as anyone else, especially if they are not part of the inner circle, which for many of us especially if we are converts or from an ethnic group which is not the majority in the community, can be very mysterious. Most mosques have boards that do not function very well and at least to me are not perceived to be the real source of decision making at the mosque. Few mosques are actually really run by the imams.
Most people choose not to be involved in the running of the mosque and prefer to leave it to others. For those who do seek to be part of decision making it can be difficult to figure out how to do that…but most of our masajid are not so large or wealthy that they don’t need a lot of help. If one gets involved deeply in the masjid through volunteering and doing the work no one else wants to do, I think in most cases your opinion on issues will be sought after. If for some reason one who is contributing greatly with time and energy to the mosque still is not listened to, then there is a deeper issue at stake, but at least if it is your community and you are there regularly contributing you’ll know exactly what the problem is and inshAllah you can figure out the most appropriate way to address it. It seems unlikely to me that a sit in would be the answer, but perhaps it would.
The two biggest question marks in my mind about this pray-in movement are the clear progressive leadership and involvement (which raises questions about how one can state the goal is prayer according to the sunnah) and the perception I get (perhaps totally wrong) that the major actions so far have been a bunch of women showing up at a masjid which is not their regular mosque, that they are not part of the community, have not contributed, are not known by the people, and choosing to create a demonstration for the media. If a large group of women staged such an action at a mosque they had been regularly praying and volunteering at for a period of time….I would surely pay attention to that!
Justin
June 7, 2010 at 4:10 PM
Is it really true that these demonstrations are being held by people outside of the regular masjid community? Are these people going to mosques that they do not belong to and causing disturbance?
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 10:35 PM
Br Abu Noor,
Let me correct you since you only seem to know the media spin. Pray In, always seeks first to engage in dialogue no media attention necessary and we’ve held a panel discussion the issue, also not well reported in the media to educate and hear differing perspectives. Pray In protests are used as a means of last resort or in the case of one masjid after the invitation of the Imam to pray behind the men.
I have been deeply involved with a number of masajid for years and still not had any voice or a receptive ear to simple inquiries and requests like can we not have the exit doors locked and chained shut in clear violation of fire codes. Even a request like this was met with hostility. Are these the clear progressive goals and leadership you are talking about? That my life not put in danger simply for being a woman that desires to pray in the masjid? The word “progressive” is simple a red herring, it has no real meaning, and is only used mostly as an insult to refer to a couple of our higher-profile members. There are also those so-called good and idealized women and men who fit into conservative definitions of, oh what is the preferred term, orthodox, sunni, traditional or whatever who attend the preferred institutes, have the preferred aqeedah, listen to the preferred speakers, and read and agree with many of the preferred opinions, books, and websites.
I don’t think the brothers are all palling around with the imam and it wouldn’t matter to me if they were, yet I’m pretty sure if I had any visual at all to the imam I would be able to at least recognize him. I can’t tell you the number of masajid I’ve been to, attending regularly for years and had no idea what the imam looked like because in classes, lectures, and for salah there were simply no visuals and this is the guy people tell me should be my wali and will look out for my interests better than my own father when he doesn’t even know me and I don’t him.
And please do tell me, what is a “member” of mosque, what is “regular attendance” for women who are so often reminded that we should prefer to only pray in our homes and that our attendance is predicated on fulfilling the ideas others have for us?
AsimG
June 8, 2010 at 2:51 AM
A “member” is someone who has a vested long-term interest in the masjid and has devoted time and/or money to back that interest and knows a few people in the community and gained their trust.
At an active masjid there are plenty of social and Islamic events to volunteer or take part in with usually a few aunties (the Imam’s wife, Ameer’s wife, super active Muslimah, etc) at the head who recognize other “member” sisters of the community.
Their opinions naturally have more weight as they have seen more and done more for the masjid.
Abdul-Malik Ryan
June 8, 2010 at 7:32 PM
Ify,
It is simply not true that I only know the media spin about this issue. I have read your articles as well as email discussions you have had with others about these issues. Actually, the it is rather silly that you refer to “media spin” as if it is against you since the mainstream coverage of these issues has all been engineered by and in some cases written by members of the movement.
I know that you, Fatima Thompson, and Asra Nomani are not regular attending and contributing members to the 2 communities at which you have held your pray ins. My suggestion was that you should have had the protests in the communities in which you are regular contributing members of the community and that if such a protest needs to be held at Dar ul Hijrah it should be conceived, led and organized by sisters active in the community. I am not saying they would automatically get everything they want, but they would get a different reaction.
The word “progressive” does have a meaning. If you don’t know what it means I could explain it to you. Or you can read from Shaykh Yasir’s writings on the subject. Or you could ask Fatima Thompson or Asra Nomani since both have written about the movement and both obviously embrace it. I find it odd that you ridicule the idea that there is an orthodox Islam since communicating the perspective of orthodox Muslims is part of the central mission of this website. I am not saying you have to agree with everyone on the website since obviously encouraging political involvement is another aspect of most of the writers for this site and I have not hesitated to express my problems and disagreements with that.
The only place I have any influence over is the musallah at the college where I serve as chaplain. There is no purdah or barrier there and it is a relatively small space. I understand the arguments on both sides regarding barriers. But having chose to not have one, do you think I have a lot of respect for someone who shows up one day and is not a regular contributor to the community and demands that there should be a barrier. InshAllah I hope to treat anyone who comes to me with nasiha with respect but I give the advice of someone like just about zero weight.
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 11:23 AM
Simply not true Abu Noor, we have not “engineered all of the mainstream coverage” at all.
I used to be a regular attending and contributing member at DAH for years. And at DAH, we were invited to pray-in by the Imam who attended one of our panel discussions on these issues. So we took him up on his offer, you don’t have to be a regular member to pray in a mosque nor to respond to an invitation, we were not trying to change it. In the communities that we frequent most often we are in discussions with people there and even communities that we do not frequent have reached out to us recently, in large part due to raised profile in the media. Of course, long-lasting and organic change generally is most effective from within but I believe there is a role to play from without as well just like in cases appealed to and decided by a higher court of appeals.
I’m not ridiculing the idea of an orthodox expression of Islam, yet orthodoxy means different things to different people and there is a spectrum of orthodoxy as there is of any movement or group including progressivism. Who is to say who is orthodox, it’s largely a subjective measure. Do you intend to say you are more orthodox than I am?
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
June 9, 2010 at 4:17 PM
Perhaps you are understanding the term “engineered” differently than I am using it. The mainstream media coverage has not come from masajid or others opposed to the movement, it has come as a result of protest actions designed to draw media attention. Some of the mainstream coverage has been written by people like Asra Nomani, who seem to consider themselves both participants in the movement and journalists covering the movement. I think (correct me if I am wrong) that you have made similar comments where some events you are there as a participant and sometimes as a journalist.
I have never questioned whether anyone should be able to pray at any masjid. You have mentioned several times that the event at DAH was in response to an invitation. I have never heard of responding to an invitation and then deciding that you don’t like where you are asked to sit/pray and deciding that extra conditions can’t be added to the invitation (?) If you were simply responding to the imams invitation then you should have prayed where he suggested, if you wanted to protest for the right to pray somewhere where he asked that you not, then don’t keep claiming that you were only responding to an invitation.
There is a difference between progressive and orthodox understandings of Islam. Sure people can differ about what exactly those terms mean, but that in no way means that the terms have no meaning. It is quite odd that you reject the application of the term progressive to those like Fatima Thompson and Asra Nomani, who not only clear fit the term if one examines their approach to Islamic issues, but who both actually embrace the term themselves.
Ify Okoye
June 12, 2010 at 7:57 AM
Salaam Abu Noor,
Yes, I have been in dual roles, as a participant and as an observer.
If you invited me to your masjid indicating that I could pray behind the men, and then started adding previous unmentioned stipulations, which would end up by forcing me into a darkened corner, I’d probably have an issue with that for a number of reasons.
The words progressive and orthodox have meanings, yet they are also rather fluid. It’s not that I reject the terms applied to certain individuals if they themselves have embraced the term. Yet, I know Fatima’s approach to Islam pretty well and she’s rather orthodox in most issues. My issue is that these words are often thrown out lazily (not in your case) and hence lose all meaning. A number of people have called Pray In progressive almost in terms of orthodoxy being regressive or as though an orthodox person would not support Pray In. Mombeam (mentioned on my blog) and I both believe that our support for women’s inclusion including the ability to pray without a barrier stems directly from our orthodoxy whereas others will say it stems from a progressive tendency. That is what I was trying to convey.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 10:17 PM
Salaam alaykum Middle Ground,
Sad to say but I’ve heard similar things from the minbar such a cognitive dissonance and spiritual violence.
abuabdAllah Tariq Ahmed
June 7, 2010 at 4:13 PM
Alhamdolillah, because I agree with so much of what was written in the comments, especially with Amad and Siraaj, I will confine my comments to the part of the article that was a response to an earlier criticism I made elsewhere.
I do believe that if “Pray In” believes strongly that it has a better way to run a masjid than the communities that have been running their own masajid for the past few decades, then it would be better for it to open their own masjid than to continue its current tactics.
Every one of us who has read the Qur’an or read its interpretation in other languages, and every person who has studied the seerah of the Prophet sull Allaho alayhi wa sallam in Madinah has heard or knows the story of the “masjid” of the munaafiqeen, the masjid built as a haven for hypocrisy by hypocrites, the masjid that the Prophet sull Allaho alayhi wa sallam destroyed because of the reason it was founded. It is equally true and evident that Muslim communities all over the US (and perhaps all over the world) have faced strong and even heated divisions over the running of masajid, sometimes over partitions in the masjid, sometimes over whether to support Tablighi Jamat, sometimes over mawlid, sometimes over opening hifdh schools, and sometimes over truly trivial administrative and personality issues.
Sometimes those differences in a locality or in a single masjid become so irreconcilable that a new masjid is opened by the dissenters. Alhamdolillah alaa kulli haal. It is why some say that ISB is the parent community of DAT, DAS, and a host of other masajid across MD (Maryland). It is why ISGH is the biggest Muslim organization in Houston, but there are so many other strong jamat there, too. Muhammad Alshareef alluded to the “benefit” that Allah decrees despite the divisions because where one musallah enjoyed 200 people regularly, now 2 musallah may enjoy 400 people regularly (his numbers were different than, but this is just an illustration). Houston has some 100 masajid now, and it is a barakat for the city, truly.
It would be both dangerous and intellectually irresponsible to suggest, as the article’s author does, that all new masajid are like the one the Prophet sull Allaho alayhi wa sallam destroyed.
That is in part because we do not see into the hearts of the people who found our masajid. Because none of us here is qualified to do takfir of them, and none of us should even want that authority because it should be terrifying to want to pass judgment on the soul of anyone else when we all need the Mercy of Allah for ourselves.
And opening masajid is a relatively peaceful means of testing the administrative concerns of Pray In. Ultimately they are concerned with how masajid are run, aren’t they? So let them put their theories, their interpretation of sunnah, to the real test. Let them put their money where their mouths and protest signs are, and let them demonstrate how much better a masjid would be under their administrative procedures. How much more utopian. How much closer to the sunnah. At least according to them. And if the people who found that masjid are righteous and if the people who flock to it are righteous, Allah will give them barakat in this life and in the next, just as He has done for communities all over the US already. (The same communities that Pray In vilifies.)
So I say again to Pray In, open a masjid. The hadith of the Prophet sull Allaho alayhi wa sallam is “man banaa lillahi masjidan, banAllaho lahu baytan fil Jannat” (and may Allah forgive me any error in my memory) — “whoever builds for Allah a masjid, Allah will build for them a house in jannat.” So seek that house.
If instead Pray In had or demonstrated a degree of sabr, if they had the least patience, I would counsel them instead to organize meetings with the women of those communities in which they protest and ask about conditions there.
But in their demonstrations this group’s members have been more interested in dictating than listening. If they met with the women of the masajid, the women who regularly attend those masajid, they would more than likely try to shout them down, or cudgel them with the same kind of harsh generalizations, the same confrontational rhetoric that permeates the article above.
My wife was at a masjid attending a sister’s halaqa there, a regular halaqa in which the sisters alone have access to the shaykh of the masjid. She goes there on her own, alhamdolillah, and has been doing so since before we married. The sisters were in halaqa when the Pray In group staged its publicity attack on Dar al Hijrah. The woman of her masjid discussed the attack and how they would respond. They were opposed to the tactics and would not welcome such tactics in their own masjid.
Why poison your own agenda if your intentions are sincere? Why use hateful tactics that by their very use turn away the very women you hope to help and the men who are literally the other half of the community in which you say you want to live? If you cannot work for peaceful change, then open your own masjid. Prove all your critics wrong.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 10:45 PM
Tariq, you’ve clearly not done your research so let me give you one example of a demonstration of sabr sufficient to refute much of what you have said. I’ve been in a community for nearly 8 years and it was after 7 years of volunteering, regularly attending salah and classes and meeting the right people in the know that I worked up the courage because it does take courage to speak up for what is right in the face of as Dr. Mattson put it “mindless complacency” and hostility to ask not demand for an explanation or reasoning why a certain fire hazard was allowed to persist, which from day one I knew was not only illegal, a serious fire code violation, and dangerous, the responses I was met with by those in charge was not encouraging to say the least and it took almost one whole year to finally get a straight answer that the practice has now since ceased. But according to your build your own masjid argument, do you think I should have allowed it to persist, not engaged, not questioned, not advocated, and perhaps allowed in the case of an emergency for women and children to burn to death, die of smoke inhalation, or perhaps be crushed to death?
AsimG
June 8, 2010 at 1:04 AM
A little over-dramatic. How many masaajid in the world even have a single fire exit?
Yes, the practice was bad and it should have been changed earlier (although I don’t see how something like this escaped “all” available communication channels) , but using outrageous emotional appeals (over and over and over) of children being crushed or burned to death will only enforce the most-hated stereotype of women as being too emotional and place the “Pray-In” group as an extreme Nomani organization more insistent on attention and infamy rather than actual change.
You have to be able to temper your responses and be academic in your approach if you want change. It’s not enough to “start a conversation” and this is now the 4-5 article on this blog and it seems the responses are becoming more negative from people representing different segments of the Muslim population.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 5:55 PM
AsimG, not at all over-dramatic, alhamdulillah there was no fire here but have we forgotten about our sisters burned to death in their school, locked in from the inside? Asra Nomani participates in Pray In, it doesn’t make it a” Nomani organization” anymore than you commenting on MM or attending AlMaghrib classes makes those AsimG organizations. The hyperbole seems to be a two-way street, don’t you think?
AsimG
June 10, 2010 at 4:06 PM
Asra Nomani in Pray-in is not equivalent to me as a no-name and unknown Al Maghrib student amongst the tens of thousands.
She has written articles advocating for you in mainstream media and her name has become synonymous with your organization. And rather than anyone in your group making it clear that she holds no official capacity or that there is no affiliation with her, she has been wholly embraced while Fatima seems to have made statements that follow “progressive Islam” (Or Nomani-Islam if definitions are necessary).
Let’s be clear, Nomani is not fighting to “follow the sunnah” or any of these other one-liners that Pray-in is employing to oversimplify the issue.
No matter how inclusive and tolerant your organization is, if proggies are major players in your organization and questionable methods are continually being used then you do not have my support, you will not get the support of many non-progressives and you will continue to find masjid administrations hostile to your group.
Sorry for being so blunt, but so many people are saying the same thing in different ways (300+ comments plus hundreds more on previous articles) and your responses are almost always defensive or dismissive (i.e. Siraaj gave you many positive ideas for your organization and the one you spoke of to dismiss his entire post was fundraising.).
No organization can ever survive if it cannot take off its defensive gloves, listen to some constructive criticism and make the necessary changes for success.
As I’ve said before, I think proper access and facilities for the sisters in the masjid is a noble cause and the “idea” of your organization is awesome and insha’Allah the organization will free itself from proggie-shackles that keep you in the court-room fighting Muslims rather than in the masjid building up the community and changing hearts.
Ify Okoye
June 12, 2010 at 7:27 AM
Salaam alaykum AsimG,
Fatima addressed this issue here in the comments, which one could be forgiven for missing, and I’ve addressed it elsewhere. Pray In is a volunteer org and so those willing to volunteer do so, we don’t shun them or give them litmus test questions before they are allowed to participate. We share our vision so that each individual can decide whether to sign on or not or in which capacity he or she would like to assist.
Clearly, you have not read all of my responses, on quite a few that offered constructive criticism I accepted it or indicated it was food for further thought. I remember Siraaj suggested 1. to instruct women to conform to some notion of “proper hijab” and 2. to fundraise. And I explained my views on both. Simply not liking or agreeing with my responses does not make them necessarily defensive at all.
abuabdAllah Tariq Ahmed
June 8, 2010 at 4:51 PM
Honestly, Sister Ify, while I respect the enormous amount of time you have spent just in replying to comments on your article, I am at a loss to understand how your response to my one comment here is anything more than tangential at best.
If you mean that my post does not demonstrate knowledge of the experiences that shaped your views, I think you have only torn out the heart of your own article: document for us please what you have done to research the experiences that shaped the individual masajid attacked by Pray In publicity stunts? The experiences of the founders of those masajid, of the early days of those masajid, of the men and of the women in those masajid, etc.
I find it hard to imagine that you mean to imply that the experience you cited in your reply, of one instance of a fire code violation is enough to legitimize every publicity attack by Pray In. That would be beyond the pale, sister.
Indeed, fire codes and other municipal codes should be complied with by every masjid, bi’idhnillah, or variances sought when the codes have been promulgated or enforced with the intent of harming a masjid or group of Muslims. I myself know of masajid in many cities that face threats from fire marshals just because some brothers and sisters (and children, and their parents) refuse to put shoes on shoe racks. The charge is that the doors might jam if a fire broke out during salat. The concerns are legitimate or not depending on individual circumstances, but that is only one example.
Another example, a masjid that Pray In despicably attacked with a publicity stunt, Dar ul Hijrah has had decades of problems with its neighbors. I remember from the mid-1990’s when parking when restricted to deter Muslims from parking in front of homes and even in driveways of masjid neighbors. And I know first hand examples from greater Los Angeles, too.
But in most of these cases, when a person looks closely one notices a few facts about the sources of problems. In Dar al Hijrah, there are (or at least were in the 1990s) so many Muslims who have diplomatic plates who cared not a whit about parking laws, etc. And in the LA example that comes to mind, the worse offenders were regular attendees at Friday who were certain that leaving their cars for a “few minutes” in front of neighbors could not be a problem. All those people were wrong, of course, but they all took a casual attitude towards their obligations as Muslims (1) to protect the masjid as a house of Allah, and its reputation, and (2) to be good neighbors to those around the masjid.
I do not think Pray In satisfies either of those obligations. Undermining the masajid with publicity attacks and giving the masjid’s neighbors more reasons to dislike it are not deeds I would want in my book.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 6:09 PM
If people are willing to read and comment about my writing, I feel I should at least return the favor and engage them in the comments. I mean that’s what blogs are for, aren’t they? And besides, there have been some amazing gems and I learn so much from the criticism and praise and from the stories and experiences of others.
Br. Tariq, I don’t subscribe at all to your “build your own masjid” argument, I don’t think it has any solid basis from the sunnah nor as a practical means to resolve issues, it sows more division and weakens the ummah, dividing our resources. But to each his own.
I do not agree with your characterization of pray-ins as attacks although I do know I was physically assaulted at both the Islamic Center and Dar al-Hijrah.
The example of the fire code hazard was given as a refutation to those who say we are “demanding immediate change” are working “from outside the community” or that we “lack sabr.”
As for the DAH example, the Imam attended one of panel discussion (which belies the claim that we are only seeking publicity, we seek real and meaningful discussion, education, and dialogue) and publicly on video stated that he allows women to pray behind the men at his mosque. He was informed that we intended to take him up on his offer and his response was encouraging until the day we actually showed up and then previously unheard stipulations and qualifications and equivocations began to be added last-minute. We were not trying to change DAH but rather responding to an invitation by one of their Imams.
At the Islamic Center and at various other masajid, our first recourse is always to seek dialogue and engagement, it is only when met when complete rejection and hostility and an unwillingness to even acknowledge the desire for dialogue that official pray-ins have been held.
Why so concerned about the neighbors, are we not also even more concerned about our fellow Muslims within the fold of Islam attending the masajid? I’d be more concerned with taking care of my own family before worrying about keeping up with the Joneses or what the neighbors might think. Are we concerned about what impression of Islam is conveyed by substandard and dangerous conditions or penalty boxes? Are we worried that our neighbors will not believe all of our favorite dawah slogans when they see the reality in our communities, which belie the values we claim to uphold?
abuabdAllah Tariq Ahmed
June 9, 2010 at 1:35 PM
Jazak Allah khayr sister Ify for giving details about the Pray In encounters with Dar al Hijrah.
One of my earliest complaints with your article was that it gave few (or no) facts about any incident but instead used generalizations to attack all Muslims who disagree with you. Only when you allege specific facts do your complaints come off as less than unfair.
As for the veracity and fairness of the picture you paint at Dar al Hijrah, the fact is that your perspective of those who disagree with you is so negative, so defensive, and so caustic that I cannot take your characterizations at face value.
For example, look at how unfairly you interpret what I wrote:
SubhanAllah. Sister, all of my responses have been for the benefit of protecting masajid and Muslims — it is a contemptible rhetorical device you use to suggest otherwise.
On the other hand, your actions demonstrate you are willing to see the masajid and Muslims with whom you wish to “dialogue” destroyed in the media and vilified publicly by anyone who wants to put down Muslims. It is an acceptable risk to you because those masajid and Muslims dare to run their own affairs without bowing to your demands. (Again, instead of attacking them, use peaceful dialogue, and if you have no sabr to put up with them, then open your own masjid — it will be less harmful than your current tactics.)
Why do masajid, especially the ones I referred to, need good relations with their neighbors? First, because Allah requires it. Second, because these particular neighbors have fought the masajid once relations soured: fighting the masjid in Greater LA even before construction was completed so that the masjid had to change its construction plans. Fighting Dar al Hijrah with restrictive parking ordinances that made life much more difficult for those seeking to pray there. Calling police to complain about noise and parking at a masjid in Houston, to the point that plans to expand the masjid or increase its facilities were jeopardized.
And your attacks on these masajid and communities do exactly the same kind of harm as every man or woman who parks his car illegally and then walks into the masjid to pray with khushoo. Like that irresponsible person, you are too confident in your reasons — you should be bothered by the impact of your methods even more than the person who parked illegally because you deliberately employ mass media to attack the masjid, so the harm is much more widespread and longlasting.
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 4:42 PM
Tariq, I believe your arguments are mistaken and full of mischaracterizations and misrepresentations, which is your right. One reason, I have not revealed all the details of the incident at DAH was simply because the case is still pending, we have a court date set, and then afterward I’ll most likely write about the incident in full, insha’Allah
Farhan
June 7, 2010 at 4:21 PM
On a side note, I just went for an interview and on the way back stopped by Dar al-Hijrah. I recognized the picture from the front :-)
Maryam
June 7, 2010 at 4:35 PM
Mombeam related my beliefs and I agree with you 100%. I do it find it quite silly and hypocritical how some of our Muslim brothers are conditioning the sisters to dress properly and be of the caliber of the mother of the believers (Aisha RA) in order to have access to the masjid. I donรขโฌโขt think anyone of you who hold these believes are near the caliber of the male companions like Ali or Umar RA and expecting sisters to be is very hypocritical not to mention many of you living in the West work and interact with Non-Muslim women on a daily basis, so kindly put that ignorant belief to rest. And further how exactly pushing sisters away particularly the impressionable minds of young sisters who will be the future leaders and mothers of future leaders of our ummah away from the masjid or keeping them in a box behind a barrier as is reality across many masjids in the US effective? Its dangerous and destructive and something must be done to an end of this.
Siraaj
June 7, 2010 at 5:41 PM
You may be conflating discussions – an argument for the barrier (not outright prevention) is that women attending the masjid no longer dress correctly. While it is true that men have to lower their gaze, it is also incumbent upon the women to dress properly and not make a display of themselves, otherwise the complementary nature of men lowering their gaze and women dressing modestly is broken.
My personal philosophy is before you tell others to fix themselves, you fix yourself first. You can’t complain about a barrier and yet not acknowledge the problem caused by improperly dressed women. It is en vogue for Western Muslim speakers and da’ees to rail against brothers, and this is simply overcompensating for the constant media attack against Muslims on women’s issues.
We need neither eastern chauvinists nor western feminists (or vice versa), be they male or female – what we need are balanced pragmatists who are willing to acknowledge the manner in which Allah has created the male and the female and separate out the religious issues for what they are, the competence issues for what they are, the cultural (both eastern and western) issues for what they are, and logistical / resource constraint issues for what they are, and seek to reconcile them into win-win situations.
Would the sisters in charge of the Pray In movement be willing to conduct fundraisers to build extensions and better amenities for masjid boards allowing them to do so? Would they be willing to tell sisters that in order for them to pray as the women did in Prophet’s masjid, they should also dress as the women did in the Prophet’s masjid, and leave once the prayer concludes as the women did in the Prophet’s masjid? And if not, would anyone be interested in spearheading such a movement? I think if these types of proposals (win-win for both parties) are made, then more progress can be made.
Siraaj
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 10:52 PM
Siraaj, you’ve come up with ideas, so you lead it. It’s common from Muslim speakers in the West and East, North and South and the common folk to rail against the sisters as well, I’m sure you’re all for equal opportunity, no? I’ve heard much more talk addressed to and/or about sisters than I have about men.
AsimG
June 8, 2010 at 1:21 AM
Sister, this is your passion and your cause and Siraaj gave you some great ideas to bring your organization mainstream, show relevancy to the Muslim communities and help your organization achieve its goals.
You can do a bit better than a flippant response that basically says “then you do it”, which you have consistently used whenever someone has questioned your methods.
He has his passions/causes that he is busy with and you have yours (plus I don’t think Siraaj lecturing women on how to dress/act in the masjid will go that well). So insha’Allah why not take these ideas to your organization and see what ya’ll can do?
“Will you step up or are you all talk [blogs, interviews and protests] and no action?”
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 6:19 PM
AsimG, I also have a full plate and one of the best leadership lessons I’ve learned from my various experiences in positions of leadership or by working within groups is that if someone takes the time to come up with an idea, which they then suggest to others, if they themselves are not willing to take leadership on it and to see it through that it will mostly likely die just as quickly as it took them to say it or type it down. So if you suggest it, you must be willing to do it. I’ve answered part of Siraaj’s points in another comment. So if Siraaj thinks fundraisers are a good idea, let him do it, I have a strong aversion to fundraising and don’t think I’m any good at it. And also for most of the masajid, it costs more money to put up these elaborate or hastily arranged partitions then it would to not have them. Many can be easily taken down with a little energy expenditure at no cost.
Siraaj
June 8, 2010 at 9:18 PM
Not sure if you’re referencing what I said in the AlMaghrib Chieftains list a while back, but if you are, keep in mind that that advice has context – it was made to people who were suggesting too many actions on top of the main responsibilities the HQ was already carrying. The same thing happened to me when I was Ameer, and my suggestion to my team was the same because while I liked the ideas, I couldn’t do it all. Please also keep in mind that we were all like-minded in our aim and goals as part of the organization.
The Pray In organization has a stated goal, and it has members who share a common vision (albeit with different endgames in mind). What is being suggested is that your core work appears to be inflammatory and not conducive to bringing about the resolution it claims to desire, and that perhaps the method you’re using should be dropped, and more constructive methods can be taken.
My suggestions were not about the specific suggestions themselves – they were geared towards getting you to ask the question, how can we address the issues the board has and the issues that we have so that we have win-win solutions? If you don’t have time for more than what you’re doing, I would suggest to you that your group is currently wasting its collective time and could drop the actions it is currently undertaking in favor of a more pragmatic approach – I think that would be a better use of time for all involved.
Siraaj
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 11:34 AM
Siraaj: Can’t say that I recall your advice on the Chieftains’ list as I was referring directly to comments here on this post.
I would say our core work is through direct dialogue and engagement within our communities, currently we are talking to about 4 masajid in the area, some of which approached us first, have you heard about it, probably not. We had a panel discussion in April on these issues, did you hear about it, probably not? What most of our critics are quibbling over are two pray-ins, one responding to the invitation of the Imam, and the other because the masjid refuses any engagement at all.
Naureen
June 8, 2010 at 2:58 AM
I thought u guys were the ones spearheading this organization and you all want support/ideas. So when good ideas are given, why do you turn it around to the other person and say ‘you do it’?
No one can spearhead every single cause in teh world. Everyone has their own thing they are doing. You are doing this alhamdulillah and we are simply trying to give you ideas.
Siraaj
June 8, 2010 at 6:13 AM
Jzk AsimG and Naureen for taking the words right out of my keyboard :)
Ify, the purpose of my comments is to provide feedback as well as give you points to consider, points you will have to address – where do you as well as Pray In stand on advocating the full spectrum of etiquette required of women in the masjid?
If all you or the group wants is to tear down the wall without asking why it’s up, you may be missing the point.
Siraaj
Yus from the Nati
June 8, 2010 at 11:13 AM
I think that’s the fundamental issue in dealing with barrier/no barrier…
Finding the ‘illah/sabab (reason/cause) for it’s existence in 2010 in America, then seeing if it’s still applicable/reasonable weighing out the good and bad of it.
That is what should be discussed and moved on from there.
The methods have already been challenged now and is a separate entity in of itself.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 6:20 PM
Siraaj, answered somewhere up above and also in response to AsimG.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 10:49 PM
I hear you Maryam, let’s all be the sahaba, right. But what is really meant as I mentioned in my post is that those telling us to enjoy second-class accommodation or come dressed a certain way would not accept for themselves similar accommodation nor to be told how to dress.
Everyone is on a journey and in different places in their Islam, I know I’ve journeyed along this path, and had the standard been the “idealized” one in order to gain entry in the masjid, many men and women would fail before getting through the door. I’ve never understood why people want to actively turn anyone especially sisters away from the house of Allah.
AsimG
June 8, 2010 at 3:11 AM
Brothers are told to dress appropriately when coming to the Masjid and if they come in wearing shorts or low rider jeans that have nothing covering up that lowness, they will get similar responses from the people. And unfortunately, as time goes by, men’s inappropriate clothing will become a much bigger issue.
Maybe there is an overt obsession with women’s dress amongst Muslims, but in the outside world there is also an obsession with how women look and dress.
How many men’s fashion magazines vs women? How many ways can a woman show her ‘awrah (and I’m speaking of the most liberal view of ‘awrah) compared to the ways of a man?
And the levels of attraction from men have been spoken about ad nauseum on here.
And I’m really trying to understand your stance and what your group actually wants beyond these written for media talking points. You don’t want barriers but then you don’t want sisters who are inappropriately dressed to be “turned away”?
(With a barrier they can wear whatever they want and everyone is safe.)
Explain how you will achieve the Islamic balance besides just repeating lower your gaze (which is only one part of the ayah)?
And to switch your angle, do you know how many brothers have corrupted their Islam or even left it because of a girl? How many brothers have lost control and fallen into zina or lesser sins?
Can we not even be safe from such a prevalent fitna inside the House of Allah?
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 6:37 PM
AsimG: I’ll post these points for the third time here in the comments:
And for your other points, I responded to similar comments about being the masjid bouncer or clothing police in a comment to Siraaj:
Abdul-Malik Ryan
June 8, 2010 at 7:41 PM
Actually I also think the issue about whether the women or men coming to the mosque are covered properly is a red herring to this discussion. Of course people of either gender should dress appropriately at all times and especially when they come to the masjid but it seems to me that if women are in the sight lines of men they will be distracting, whether they are covered appropriately or not. And of course men should try not to look to the women, but we should help make that easier if we can inshAllah.
I remember Shaykh Yaser in Fiqh of Salah talking about a masjid where there were great big windows directly in the front with a beautiful view that would be naturally distracting to the musalleen and how this was obviously a bad idea.
Maryam
June 7, 2010 at 4:41 PM
I do like to further add i have yet to see a Muslim sister dressed improperly when attending the masjid, sure the younger sisters wear long shirts and jeans and to find out some men find it this bothersome and this somehow gets in the way of their deen or observing their salah really is an eye opener and laughable, get over youselves! or better yet work on yourself because that reveals deeper problems.
Naseebah
June 7, 2010 at 5:02 PM
There were some questions in previous comments about whether the sisters were bringing in outside protestors, and if they had surveyed/involved the women who regularly went to the masajid where they protested.
In DC they bussed in about 30 outside protestors. In a Washington Post article about the DAH protest, it states the women secretly taperecorded many discussions with masjid-going women (who were in total ignorance of the protestors’ intent) about what they thought of the barrier. A writing by one of the protestors about the DAH protest speaks mockingly about a niqabi lady who tried to reconcile the situation.
Please check out their facebook page – go to facebook and search under “Stand In” — group’s previous name. It is very enlightening.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 10:56 PM
Naseebah, I respect you even if I disagree with but please refrain from spreading untruths and misinformation, you’re better than that I know. Perhaps, you’ve seen the recent and most odious opposition group that also sprang up on Facebook?
In DC, a group was visiting from the Hagerstown masjid and they joined of their own accord the pray-in. Only one person (singular not plural as you’ve stated) recorded some discussions she had with women not for public consumption but simply to gauge honest feedback.
If you wish to be enlightened, please do so honestly, if you want my phone number or email or to meet up somewhere we can and have an honest conversation to clear up any misconceptions. Thank you.
Naseebah
June 8, 2010 at 8:56 AM
Don’t accuse me of lying or dishonesty.
1. You are right that apparently only one person was quoted as having secretly recorded women in the masjid. And she happens to be your group’s leader. You are in this together. And it was indeed for public consumption:
“[Fatima] Thompson said she went on a mission in February to “probe” Dar al-Hijrah as a protest target. She had a hidden digital recorder and asked women there about their views on being segregated to a balcony. She said she did not tell them that she was recording their comments.
“They pretty much were like: ‘This is the way it is. We’ll keep going with it,’ ” Thompson said. She talked to about a dozen women. Some were “actively” pro-segregation, Thompson said. “None of them said it should change,” she said. But the group thinks such women have been brainwashed to some degree to accept a subservient or inferior position.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/21/AR2010052104253.html
2. Your group does get outside protesters.
“Defiantly, they continued to pray behind a row of men at the front of the mosque, when their numbers unexpectedly quadrupled. A tour group of about 100 Muslims, including about 30 women, from Hagerstown, Maryland, had hurriedly entered after the prayer had already began, unsuspectingly joining the protesters.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-02-27/let-these-women-pray/
3. Do you disagree that your group is actively targeting masajid for protest, that your group’s leader secretly records women in the masjid and discusses this with the media, that your group is organizing men and women from outside the masajid to join your protests? Did I get that wrong?
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 6:49 PM
1.I’m not accusing you of lying but I know from your words here that you’ve gotten some bad information.
2. Fatima’s actions on that day had nothing to do with Pray In, she acted independently, and without consultation of any of the other members. When I found out and asked her about it, she offered a rather lengthy explanation but that does not mean she had the approval or consent of other pray in members so hold yourself to the same standard and don’t make false accusations towards me.
3. We did and do not bus in anyone as you previously stated, the group from Hagerstown was visiting the masjid of their own accord for what I believe was a tour. Purely coincidence that it happened to be at the same time as the pray-in.
You’ve gotten quite a bit wrong, even though I cannot assume anything other than the best intentions from you, which I’ve addressed above. I would say a more accurate characterization is that we are actively working and engaging with several masajid, which some of our group members frequent, to discuss issues surrounding prayer space and women’s inclusion in the community and sincerely and honestly hope that further pray-ins will not be needed. We also seek to engage in dialogue and conversation before any protest.
Naseebah
June 9, 2010 at 2:43 PM
Jazaki Allahu khair for presenting your views. At the same time, you are identifying yourself with this group.
Thompson’s actions now reflect upon your own. In the article quoted, in the same paragraph discussing her actions of secretly taperecording the women, it clearly states, “But the group thinks such women have been brainwashed to some degree to accept a subservient or inferior position.”
It seems clear from the article that this action was endorsed, discussed with the group, and you all (or members of the group) came to the conclusion that the sisters were being brainwashed. If this was not the case, as you seem to be saying now if I understand you correctly, then why not send a clarification to the newspaper?
Why not correct this misinformation at its source, instead of insinuating it is my fault or my spreading misunderstandings for not understanding.
What is still more puzzling, you have not yet said clearly that Thompson’s tactic was wrong. Do you think it was right or wrong? You have every opportunity to criticize the action of spying on and taperecording one’s own sisters in the masjid, and yet you have not of your own accord publicly distanced yourself from this tactic in your various writings on the subject.
This tactic was prominently highlighted within a Washington Post article on an action with which you have become inextricably linked.
Indeed, despite the Post article, you continue to say that all the tactics taken are from qur’an and sunnah. When, clearly, secretly taperecording one’s sisters conversations in the masjid without telling them, and disclosing the content of their talk to the press is not from the qur’an and sunnah.
Where are the tapes, by the way? Have the sisters who were secretly recorded gotten a chance to get those tapes back? You seem to know a lot about Fatima Thompson’s motives and methods for taping – who did she show the tapes to? Was it videotape or just audio? I think the offended women deserve to know and get the tapes back.
If you are going to stand with this group so publicly, then you cannot cherry-pick your involvement.
Similarly, once you go to the media, you no longer control the message. If the way in which the media reported the Hagerstown group suggests that they were bused in to the unsuspecting masjid — then do not blame the readers. Either make a clarification in the media, or accept your message will be understood many different ways, and not necessarily the way it was, or even the way it was in your mind. Which is part of the reason so many brothers and sisters are suggesting you not go to the media.
Part of the reason of distancing yourself from a leadership that will admit to the media to taping a dozen women in the masjid without their consent months in advance of a targeted action against the masjid — well I think it should be clear by now.
I maintain my respect for your feelings and thoughts on many of the issues as a whole, but some of the tactics of the group with which you are identified I cannot fathom or endorse. Unless the good of this topic is extracted from the bad of the methods, I cannot lend my support.
“Whoever intercedes for a good cause will have a reward therefrom; and whoever intercedes for an evil cause will have a burden therefrom. And ever is Allah , over all things, a Keeper.” (4:85)
You have every opportunity, and I invite you, to publicly distance yourself – in as widely circulated a way as you have endorsed them – from certain tactics taken by leadership and others in your group. You can back down from some things; and this while not mean you are giving up on your beliefs about prayer space for women.
We are all the fuqara, and Allah is Al Ghani. I am in need of Allah’s forgiveness more than anyone. I ask Allah for the best for you and the other sisters in this world and the next, and I ask you to forgive me for any mistakes or offense I have caused you or anyone else. May Allah guide us.
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 4:57 PM
Wa iyyaki. I am indeed associated with Pray In, the words of one member of a journalist do make those words or opinions necessarily my own. We’ve attended and associated with various functions together, which does not make the views of everyone associated with them mine or your and we may not even fully share the views of the organization hosting the event.
It’s strange to make assumptions based on one line in the newspaper, we never discussed taperecording nor did we all agree on it. See how one’s perceptions don’t necessarily reflect reality at all? I do my best to correct the misrepresentations and mischaracterizations here on MM and my blog and through other media but honestly I can’t correct every single thing written about me everywhere. These are anti Pray In facebook group that is backbiting and spreading lies but I’m not on there refuting everything they say, I hear some other online forums or blogs have taken up some attacks or even on the Muslim Link’s website, simply not feasible for me to try to respond to everything, it’s hard enough and extremely time-consuming trying to keep up with the comments here let alone everywhere. So I do what I can, writing here and on my blog and on Facebook and through emails and by talking to individuals in person, etc.
I would not record a private conversation unless I first informed the other party and had the issue been raised I would have expressed by disagreement with that methodology. I have no knowledge of the taping other than what has been said publicly, if you have questions for Fatima, ask her directly, she’s here in the comments and you’ve been to her Facebook page or if you want I can put the two of you in touch offline.
And ameen to your duas.
Fatima
June 8, 2010 at 11:31 PM
Assalamu Aleikum
Masha Allah… one good benefit of taking action is that people are made uncomfortable enough to think about and discuss the issue instead of trying to ignore it away.
The existence of this article was brought to my attention tonight and I am amazed that there are 250 comments!
I would like to address here some comments that Sister Naseebah made.
Specifically, I should address the now infamous “secret recording”. I approach my interviews with sisters as a sociologist. If they were aware that I was recording – whether by pen and paper or by an audio recording device – they would be inhibited and not discuss the issue completely.
((Also, I must admit, I have a problem with hearing and it would also be difficult to remember, perfectly, the statement of a dozen or more women – so a recording serves as a secretary for me)).
As for discussing it with media – the only mention of it was the fact that I collected statements in order for me to assess the climate and attitudes of those attending the mosque. If PRAY IN was all about my own preferences, as many are wont to claim, I would not ask anybody else what they thought about partitions at all. I did not provide names to the media as, I am sure, the sisters’ would be uncomfortable with that – just as with taking their pictures. I simply described general age (it was a guess) and were they immigrants or not. If my inquiry at the mosque were a medical procedure, the level of “disclosure” would meet criteria of privacy under HIPPA law. There is nothing that could identify a single woman.
I want to point out one more thing about recording “secretly” and the mosque in Falls Church, VA where we had our recent protest. I was discussing the dynamics of the mosque with the police who, when asked, told me that they make a LOT of calls from domestic violence in that community and they also said that they are called to that mosque regularly for disturbances. If these women are suffering domestic violence they would have every reason to be reticent about talking to someone about gender relations in the mosque. They would not want their husbands (or fathers, brothers, uncles, sons…) knowing that they commented at all on gender relations. So, in a way, I am providing a mercy to them by keeping things “secret” and anonymous.
As for the protest in which a group came from Hagerstown on a tourist trip and joined the protesters, as part of the congregation prayers, this should not be an issue for anyone. Allah knows what is in their hearts and it is not for you or I to make any assumptions about that. However, after the prayers while we were lingering outside and the other visitors began to ask about our presence (and the presence of the police) they themselves began to protest. In fact, one older brother began to shout “see how you treat our women… see what you are teaching our children… this is wrong…”. We did not serve this man with any propaganda, any literature… he got his information from the people at that mosque who had called the police to have us removed. Remember the Qur’an 2:256 – “la iqraha fi deen, faqad tabayyina rushdum minal gayy…” – there is no compulsion in religion, the truth stands clear from error…
It is not difficult for people to realize the truth of what we are working for… the inclusion of women in the mosque – in congregational prayers, in community meetings, in educational offerings, in disbursement of charity, in positions of leadership, in recognition of accomplishment… It is not difficult for people to recognize that the barrier is something that did not exist in the time of our Beloved Prophet. It is hard for people to give up their barriers… it is hard for them to defend the existence or continuation of their barriers…
Targeting masajid… every masajid that engages in gender segregation and, thereby, marginalization of women, should expect to be targeted by PRAY IN – whether by the DC group or from another group that rises up organically. Every mosque we have targeted we have made sincere attempts to contact the governing body to present our message and request to discuss the issue. We Muslims have to stop being so isolationist as to think that each mosque is a mini-state that can escape criticism from “outside”. We are all Muslims and we are standing up to injustice being meted out on our Muslim sisters – everywhere.
Our group is very diverse… many races, many nationalities, men and women both together, many theological/philosophical perspectives … we are all joined by one idea, one hope, one desire… that women may enjoy the status of “equal before Allah” in their place of worship. As it stands now, 2 out of 3 mosques in America relegate women to the “other” space… spaces that, if provided for their children at school, would be deemed inferior and would cause a parent to find another school to place their child in. We honor non-Muslims with allowing them to wander about the main prayer area, taking pictures – even while people are praying, and lingering in the main prayer area whether they are male or female. And yet the Muslim women who have more right for use of space at the mosque are sent off to a separate space as though they are not worthy of recognition by or participation with the rest of the congregation.
I am sure many of you would like me to address your comments personally. I truly would like to.
However, please know that with 250 comments on the board when I looked tonight I will not humanly be able to address them all – at least not with any sort of expediency.
I will try to scan and respond to some more significant points raised, Insha Allah.
I ask Allah to guide us all and ask that Allah instills in us the humility to accept that guidance and the accept correction.
Fatima
Sayf
June 8, 2010 at 11:47 PM
I approach people as a surgeon, so don’t mind me stabbing people in the heart.
Apologies in advance for that, but with all due respect sister that’s not appropriate,you can keep people anonymous after getting their consent to record them.
Please don’t record people without their consent from now on.
As for the media, we all know they’re wolves, we shouldn’t be helping them with their anti-Islamic propaganda in any way. It doesn’t matter how bad things get within us, we should never have to run to them. Even worse, it will so severely hurt your group’s credibility with other Muslims who genuinely care about your cause that it will only further split up the community, and I’m speaking from witnessing such a blunder before.
So please, and I emphasize this more, even if they bring you mountains of gold, don’t ever deal with the media to expose the potential sins of other Muslims.
There may be noble and important causes you are fighting for, but don’t compromise Islamic akhlaq. Two wrongs never make a right.
Ameen to the dua’s.
Naseebah
June 9, 2010 at 5:59 PM
wow.
– you approached these women as a “sociologist” but certainly you did not approach them as a muslim, and actually you weren’t even very nice were you?
– you decided not to let these women know you were recording them because you thought they would be more inhibited if they knew you were recording them? No kidding. That is exactly why we ask people’s permission before tape recording them.
– Hmmm. Let’s find out from the reporter(s) you talked to what you mentioned and what you didn’t. You were quoted directly on the content of the conversations. there might be more in the reporter’s notes. unless of course you asked them to be off record on that, because you would be more inhibited otherwise. You seem to have it all figured out, don’t you. Did your lawyer give you the HIPPA line?
– So, you talked to the police about the “targeted” mosque and you started to draw conclusions about the women who go there (aka stereotyping) based on these conversations. So you decided, based on the possibility (rumor, innuendo and speculation) that some of these women might possibly be the victims of domestic violence — even though that was never established as such, and it was never part of the conversation, nor was it even an outcome of the discussions or your actions – that you were going to deprive them of any choice in the discussion out of your great benevolence and mercy? Give me a break.
Bottom line — I have seldom heard anything so patronizing in all my life. You accuse others, yet you are the one who has deprived these women of their legitimate voices, you have betrayed their trust and friendship, you have co-opted their views to your political ends without their knowledge or consent.
You raise the specter of domestic abuse, yet you have abused the trust these women showed you in a very real way, without apology.
You talk about the need for women’s legitimate space, and yet you have intentionally, coldly, clinically, and without apology violated women’s privacy in their space within the masjid, where they had an expectation of privacy.
When all they did was to go there and worship Allah? When all they did was engage in conversation with you, thinking perhaps you wanted a friend, or some spiritual fellowship?
But in exchange you recorded them without their permission, all in the name of helping them?
You are purporting to tutor us on what it is to be a real american and how we do things in this country. Well, is this your America? Secret recordings in houses of worship? Undermining people’s right to privacy?
Is this your idea of sisterhood?
Your group is supposedly worried about what non-Muslims would think of the women’s spaces in the masjids? I can’t think of anyone who goes to church on Sunday expecting they will be secretly recorded by their fellow parishioners. That is NOT the spirit of america.
You owe these women, and the communities you have “targeted”, a big apology.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
June 9, 2010 at 6:34 PM
Yeah, I’m not sure I understand Fatima’s comment about the tape recording but if you were doing sociological research, it would normally be unethical to do so without the informed consent of the subjects of your research.
Naseebah
June 8, 2010 at 11:57 AM
And below is the reference to the remark about the niqab from Stand In notes about the May protest at DAH.
“As an interesting detail as I stood there facing the journalist I noticed to my right a woman standing in front of me who had taken part of her scarf and pulled it over her nose and mouth as a ridiculous makeshift niqab รขโฌโ it was none other than Fatima Goodwin from ICDC. She asked me if I wanted to go รขโฌลover thereรขโฌย and motioned with a tilt of her head toward the rear of the mosque. I pointed toward her face and asked her what is this garbageรขโฌยฆ but it was so stupid that I turned around without hearing what her response would be.
http://www.facebook.com/notes/stand-in/pray-in-protest-saturday-may-15-2010/392191015177
These kinds of egregious put-downs towards one’s fellow sisters who are only trying to help avoid a confrontation in the masjid are so disheartening.
And then to know on top of that that a dozen female worshippers had been secretly taperecorded by the leader of the Pray In group back in February, laying the groundwork for this in May. Then what they said was told to the media.
Is it even legal to secretly record people in Virginia? Or was Thompson given some authority/cover to do that? Is this the behavior of sisters who love and support their fellow sisters? So many questions.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 6:56 PM
Naseebah, there is much baggage between these two Fatimas from their experiences at ICDC, it’s very difficult and perhaps a bit unfair to look at it from the outside without first seeking to understand what has transpired between these two or the context in which the remarks were made.
I’m sure you’ve been to DAH, they have cameras everywhere, including I’ve been told by those regulars that commented on one of my blog posts a few years back the sisters’ mezzanine, which was unbeknownst to me, I’ve tried to ascertain the truth of that claim from one of the board members there that commented on my blog but to no avail.
Zulander
June 10, 2010 at 3:36 AM
Wow… Good points Naseeba, I don’t understand how someone can defend themselves after they were caught secretly recording people…
Brother
June 7, 2010 at 5:29 PM
I have one question regarding women not being able to access the Imam: what happened to Aalima’s? It’s not haram for Muslim women to go study our religion. Alhamdulillah there are programs for women in Yemen to become scholars. There’s also one in the US (NY) and in the UK (unfortunately I forgot where it is). Nevertheless I believe that Massajid’s should accommodate the woman’s needs in this way by having an Aalimah ready to address their issues. Some women may have very personal issues that may be hard to tell the Imam.
Farhan
June 7, 2010 at 5:29 PM
After some more thinking, I’ve had some thoughts that are neither here nor there…
At our masjid:
* There’s a lot of room for women – less than the men, but it doesn’t fill up
* They have 50% access to the gym, and when its their turn, they close the doors and no men are allowed in
* Classes are held in close proximity to the sister’s section so they can be close to the Imam
* They can use the entrance directly on the men’s side (which is for both) OR the sisters-only entrance.
* A separate bathroom the same size as the mens’ (I would know, I used to help close the masjid after-hours)
Despite that, the attendance of the sisters for classes, gym use, daily activities, or even just to hang out is low. Very low. For Isha, its at most 5, usually 0.
Our masjid has a gym. Its nice. But imagine, you have a bunch of rowdy teenage boys who want to use the gym to play basketball (or whatever, i suck at sports), but they can’t because its the sisters turn. Fine. But at most maybe 1 or 2 will show up. Usually, its zero. How do you explain to adolescent boys that its not fair for them to use an EMPTY gym because its the sisters turn- and we both know that they aren’t going to come anyways.
Third, even though the womens’ section is smaller, they have more room per person. That’s because far less women show up. Meaning, their numbers in Jummah are substantively less such that there are a bazillion chairs for the elderly women while the mens’ chairs fill up. And it isn’t like they get the smelly carpets, because the carpets are randomly placed down and cleaned once a month.
I KNOW that abuse against women is wrong and it DEFINITELY takes place in our Muslim communities. But, I swear, every single Khutbah by one of our Khateebs is like “Men, you suck, fulfill your responsibilities”. Can you imagine a single Khutbah talking about a womens’ responsibility? In one ‘Eid salah, a Khateeb talked about both mens’ and womens’ responsibilities. He got told down afterwards by 3 people saying he was a sexist against women. How was that against women? Didn’t he talk about both? That’s a clear-cut double-standard.
In ‘Itikaaf at our masjid VERRRY few sisters showed up, but they got to use the numerous, spacious and private classrooms to sleep in, whereas the men crashed in a small-Musallah area. I would be fine with that if more than 10 women showed up. Each of them could have had their own private room while the men slept in a clearly over-crowded single room.
I dunno, maybe my masjid experience has been different than others. It is a pretty AWESOME place (I turned down a job paying 85k just to be close to it). But, no joke I almost feel like saying masjids are sexist against men, not women.
(I say this with all due love and respect for Sr. Fatima Thompson, Sr Ify and all the Muslimaat who are frustrated with clear marginalization of women. May Allah fulfill your objectives and admit you into the highest levels of Jannah)
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 11:02 PM
Farhan,
I can’t tell you the number of khutbah I have heard or arguments by men and women wanting to exclude or marginalize women. Or how many times, I’ve been to masajid, that have kicked women out of the musalla or building entirely to accommodate the expected overflow of men. Why is it okay for sisters to pray in cramped and crowded conditions, in hallways, on shoes, in airless rooms, in completely separate buildings, etc and not okay to give those same spaces to the overflow of men. The lines are not joined but the first recourse in a number of masajid I’ve been to has been to kick out the sisters, is that respect?
Farhan
June 7, 2010 at 11:23 PM
as-salaam ‘alaykum Sister,
Wow, that’s pretty extreme. I’m very sorry to hear that. I wouldn’t feel like a man telling women to leave the masjid like that.
One of our Khateebs is big on social justice, civil involvement, working with domestic violence, that sorta stuff. Its actually pretty cool.
But, a lot of his Khutbahs are basically ‘if you want a wife like Khadijah, you have to be a man like Muhammad SAAWS’ (no, he’s not Suhaib Webb, I’m just stealing his line :-) )
You earlier wrote:
I don’t know what to say, I just haven’t seen that. Actually, I’ve seen the exact opposite. TO THE MAX. They’re all ‘men, you’re all screwed up and don’t fulfill your rights’. Like Siraaj said, its a counter-reaction to being called a sexist religion.
I dunno, I guess we just had different experiences. But, I empathize with your cause.
Naureen
June 8, 2010 at 3:02 AM
assalamalykum to all.
I’ve practiced for almost a decade now and never was I kicked out or treated like this and i’m from the va/dc area. I almost always heard talks/lectures/khutbas (98%) talking about men fulfilling their responsibilities to the point that when I got married I noticed how I NEVER heard about what I should do.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 6:59 PM
Naureen, let me know if you ever want to meet up or go masjid-hopping, I’ll take you to those masajid, I know them well, and have attended them regularly for years. Alhamdulillah, it’s a process and sometimes a battle to even hold onto the areas that were supposed to be designated for the women, we take two steps forward at times and two steps back.
Muhammad
June 9, 2010 at 8:14 PM
I second that, I’ve never heard a khutbah about the responsibilities of women. Never. Plenty of stuff aimed towards the guys, I think the khateebs are afraid of being hounded by the sisters :D. If there’s any mention of responsibilities of women and what they should do, it’s done in halaqat, usually ones relating to marriage. And I can say that in no state that I’ve been in have my sisters (blood sisters) been kicked out of the masjid due to overcrowding. A lot of times, the guys side will get overcrowded and guys will be pushed into the hallway, activity room, and lobby while the sisters side has plenty of space.
It’s interesting how everyone’s experience with their masajid are so different than yours Sr. Ify.
Ify Okoye
June 12, 2010 at 6:42 AM
No, not everyone’s read the comments more closely brother or the stories of sisters mentioned in the post.
Mehdi Sheikh
June 9, 2010 at 8:05 PM
It is a fard for the Men to pray in a masjid and not for women, so naturally if there is an overflow of men they have more right to the space than women do. While it may not be an optimal situation, it is what it is.
The sunnah is clear that during the time of the Prophet and thereafter women and men prayed in the same space; men in front and women in the back and it is understandable that if you want to follow the sunnah that is what you implement. But it seems that out of the many related sunnahs of the masjid you seems to be nitpicking on one issue while ignoring other directly related sunnahs.
During the time of the Prophet (sal Allaahu alaihi wa sallam) the masjid was a place of prayer and prayer only (occasionally prisoners were kept there too). People prayed and they left after the prayer. The Prophet instructed the women to leave the musalla before the men as well. The Masjid was not a place for socializing just salaat exclusively.
In non-Muslim lands this situation is different. Masjids are not just houses of prayer, but social and community centers for Muslims as well. People gather not just for prayer, but to socialize as well, in a Muslim environment. In light of this situation it is not seemly that men and women occupy the same space in the masjid as the presence of each other in the other’s space takes away from feeling comfort.
There should be no problem allowing the women to pray in the same space should space allow, but the women should leave to their own space thereafter. If there is not enough space then whatever space is there is the right of the men first.
However you want to put it. Practicality demands that women have their own and separate space in any masjid, and since it is there it is used. The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.
Naseebah
June 7, 2010 at 5:41 PM
I was asked to give naseehah to the brothers.
Recall the hadith in Sahih Bukhari.
Narrated An-Nu’man bin Bashir: The Prophet said, “The example of the person abiding by Allah’s orders and limits (or the one who abides by the limits and regulations prescribed by Allah) in comparison to the one who do wrong and violate Allah’s limits and orders is like the example of people drawing lots for seats in a boat. Some of them got seats in the upper part while the others in the lower part ; those in the, lower part have to pass by those in the upper one to get water, and that troubled the latter. One of them (i.e. the people in the lower part) took an axe and started making a hole in the bottom of the boat. The people of the upper part came and asked him, (saying), ‘What is wrong with you?’ He replied, “You have been troubled much by my (coming up to you), and I have to get water.’ Now if they prevent him from doing that they will save him and themselves, but if they leave him (to do what he wants), they will destroy him and themselves.”
Brothers in authority you are like those in the upper section; you have acted troubled by the needs of the females. You have been rude, not listened, and not responded kindly to their needs. You are to be blamed for doing that. But now some of them have taken their needs upon themselves through the seriously wrong means that is jeapordizing everyone and most of all the rights of Allah in the matter of salaah in His house. These sisters are like those who have gone and started digging a hole in the boat. So now we must stop their action, and repair the damage, or the ship sinks.
Yahya Ibrahim
June 7, 2010 at 7:30 PM
รยงรโรยณรโรยงรโฆ รยนรโรล รฦรโฆ รหรยฑรยญรโฆรยฉ รยงรโรโรโก รหรยจรยฑรฦรยงรยชรโก
รยจรยณรโฆ รยงรโรโรโก รยงรโรยฑรยญรโฆรโ รยงรโรยฑรยญรล รโฆรขโฌยฌ
I do not have much time at the moment so I will follow up later insha Allah.
The female Sahaba made a similar complaint about access to the prophet (s). He set out a day for them and told the men to leave during that time (tuesdays I believe). A special door was cut out for the woman and the prophet (s) would walk over to them to instruct them and remind them of charity.
Access to the imam and administration is NOT during prayer time.
Like any other place, schedule a time with the Imam (men and women).
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 11:07 PM
Wa salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh ya Shaykh, patiently, awaiting your longer response, insha Allah. I wish we could say that the masjid admins and imam were always willing to listen or setup times to meet but that simply is not the case even for serious issues like rectifying dangerous fire hazards we are sometimes met with hostility and rendered voiceless and invisible praying that a greater harm doesn’t occur.
tariqislam
June 7, 2010 at 8:51 PM
Communicating in Accordance With the Sunnah: A Brother’s Protest Against Marginalization of the Muslim Community
Let me start by saying that I support not having physical barriers, where women still pray in the back but at least in the same room as the men. I think that if the people within the masjid have an understanding and proper etiquette, this would go off without a hitch during every prayer. In addition, I personally believe that the success of Islam in America hinges desperately on how Muslims treat their women. I agree that for us to be able to tout the fact that “Islam elevates its women”, we need to walk the walk.
While I agree with the underlying concept of the Pray In movement, I find myself vehemently against the group itself for the following reasons:
1. First, there is no mission statement. As the author stated herself, that is still in development. That’s fine, except for the fact that without a defined statement, a goal, an end state, you have no roadmap either. In effect, this movement is blind and merely conceals that fact behind the mask of feminism. What this does is that it creates a facade wherein explanation of a goal and justification of actions are unnecessary since feminism is always a moving target in terms of what it is exactly. Conveniently, the definition of feminism has changed over time. Worse, this movement has already begun acting out by partaking in these pray-in protests. Acting without a clear cause, especially in something as sensitive as this subject, can only yield negative results.
2. This movement has gone straight to the media. In fact, that is one of the first things that was done. This shows me that the Pray In movement is more ignorant than anything else of its own actions and their ramifications. I understand that clothes are just as dirty whether they can be seen or not, but where are your manners? You speak of sunnah left and right but you forget that the concealment of one’s faults is also sunnah. I’m not saying simply cover them up… the sunnah is to covertly and quietly help to correct them from within instead of exposing one’s dirty laundry. This sunnah applies very much to the Muslim community at large. We must fix our faults, but not at the expense of marginalizing the entire community. You speak of the marginalization of sisters, yet that is exactly what this movement does in the eyes of the media regarding the overall community.
You stated “Yet, the clothes are just as dirty, stink just as much, and are just as unfit for wearing regardless of who sees it or knows about it.” and that’s very true, but should the movement really be portraying the ENTIRE community in such a light to the media? This goes back to what I stated in my previous paragraph. The level of ignorance to the effects of this is astounding to me, especially regarding the caliber of education that is supposed to be behind Pray In. The media in general is sensationalist, particularly when it comes to Islam. They will take sound bites and re-contextualize them to improve ratings. To think that the media will accurately depict all of the important facets and complex issues surrounding the state of the Muslim woman in the masjid is a joke, particularly when they do not even understand the basics of Islam itself. More than that, they are communicating their re-interpretation of what they hear from you to the general public who know even LESS about Islam.
We need to fix our issues in-house, and if these issues get out on their own, alhamdulillah. But to emphasize stereotypes that non-Muslims have through sensationalist media is the most irresponsible thing that Pray In could have done. One curious side effect is that suddenly Pray In becomes the voice of the Muslim woman, which leads me to my next point:
3. You are not. I have seen no evidence, no numbers, nothing suggesting that you speak for any sort of majority, silent or not. Speaking to one or two sisters at area masaajid does not make an expert in the matter. At that point you are no better than the media, sensationalizing a few opinions and turning it into the majority sentiment.
4. Your overall approach shows a lack in understanding when it comes to communication. Pray In has accomplished nothing in terms of communicating in accordance with the sunnah. Despite the protests sparking some interaction and dialogue with a few masaajid leadership, they do it out of fear that you will bring more negative media attention, not love and understanding or a sincere desire to do what’s right. The protests are literally nothing more than a slap in the face to each community that you have it in. You cannot walk up to someone that you disagree with, slap them in the face, and then expect them to talk to you about it to bring about change. By your actions, you coerce the other party unwillingly into a position wherein their intentions are out of fear, not sincerity and bridge-building.
What I’m really getting at, and this is more of advice for you and others in the Pray In movement, is that like in a khutbah, you have to know your audience. Ultimately, the abstract goal of Pray In is to communicate an ideal. Like I said, you can’t force that ideal through a slap in the face protest. Knowing your audience means knowing the community, knowing how they will react, and knowing how you can effectively reach them. Effective here meaning that they react in a sincere way, WANTING to change and make compromises. Instead you are collectively punishing communities of brothers for their lack of understanding where all they need is a little bit of education about women in Islam. The majority of muslims in masaajid across America were brought up in a different generation.
5. The general tone that I have noticed, not just this article (but especially this article), has been nothing short of condescending. No one here is a sexist or a chauvinist, and I can only assume from the high quality of the replies here that we are all educated mashallah. When you approach something with such a condescending tone, it completely turns everyone off to what you’re really trying to get at.
6. As others have mentioned, you’re protesting for no more barriers, again which I support. However in terms of the Muslim woman feeling involved and having a sense of belonging within the community is not in danger, nor is it second-rate. Whether or not there is a barrier for prayer, Muslim women in various communities are taking important roles that shape their surrounding community. There are opportunities abound for Muslim women to be a part of the community. In most masaajid that I’ve been to, prayer is actually the ONLY time that women are segregated from men. Apart from that, there are classes, lectures, seminars, fundraisers, other various events where sisters and brothers reside side-by-side in the same room and engage equally. I think your issue with Muslim women not feeling like they belong within a community stems from the women in the community themselves, not the brothers. As you mentioned in one of your replies, sisters are the ones that mostly give the nasty stares and glances. Perhaps the women in Islam need to fix themselves and their inclination to judge others, much like the brothers with there glances. The reformation regarding this specific issue that you seek lies within women themselves more so than any group of brothers.
7. Time with the Imam and gaining knowledge of Islam is an entirely different issue altogether and that effort is not furthered by what Pray In is doing or has done. As others have suggested, there are opportunities for nightly classes, private sessions with the Imam, etc. There is nothing deterring a sister from gaining knowledge at her masjid. If there are not classes, she is perfectly within her right to start one, and may Allah reward her immensely for that. I think the real problem is sisters are simply too shy to take that first step in implementing these ideas and avenues. I sincerely hope that a sister would not need to wait for a brother to offer them the idea and the motivation to act in this manner since I do not know of any masjid that would disallow this. Ultimately it’s an issue of perception wherein Muslim women need to recreate themselves in their own eyes instead of waiting for brothers to have a new understanding. At that point, they should proceed with gentleness and tact, as is dictated by the sunnah, to achieve all goals that might go against the grain. Pray In is lacking in this regard.
8. Certain associations that Pray In has really take away from its credibility in most communities. Not only my opinion, but also it’s a simple truth and I will leave it at that.
Once again let me be clear. I agree with the underlying concept of the Pray In movement and may Allah reward you for any good that you have done. I think barriers and curtains should go away, and that sisters should be able to pray behind the men in the same room in accordance with the sunnah. But your lack of understanding when it comes to tact, strategy, and communication signifies only one thing: Pray In is not the appropriate movement to reach the various (and still abstract) goals that it claims to be fighting for. Honestly the only thing Pray In is successful at is causing an uproar in communities and garnering attention for protest participants and its organizers. If it is indeed an uproar and attention that this movement wants, congratulations, but know that by doing so you are actually reinforcing the very thing that you’re trying to defeat.
When people are met with a slap in the face, they take an even harder stance against whatever slapped them to begin with. So without gentleness (as you mentioned with Abu Bakr [as] who had much), you are not received with any gentleness. Please rethink your approach as you move forward and remember the importance of the sunnah in communication. Jazaakum Allahu khairan.
Farhan
June 7, 2010 at 10:00 PM
Wow, I agree with this to the max:
I totally agree. As I mentioned above, our masjid makes every possible effort to cater to women, even to the detriment of the brothers. But, its the sisters who just don’t show up in large numbers.
This reminds me of a time in our college MSA when the president asked some of the new freshman sisters what they thought of the sister social chair position. One said that they were judgmental. That surprised us, because we knew the social chair and she definitely could not be described as judgmental. That worried us because we were afraid about the MSA community falling part, so when asked what was meant by that, we heard that they fast on mondays/thursday and don’t talk to boys. There was no judging going on except in their minds.
I get a little offended at the ‘blame the brothers’ mantra.
Irrespective, may Allah reward the sisters in the Pray-In effort and bless them in this life and the next.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 11:40 PM
Your masjid is not the norm by CAIR’s own survey, in fact it’s a woeful minority and getting smaller everyday at least at the time of publication. I spent some time masjid-hopping in many cities and I repeatedly say alhamdulillah, I do not live there and did not convert there because the amount of sensory deprivation and disconnectedness even in classes, lectures, etc was overwhelming.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 11:37 PM
Salaam alaykum Tariq, you’ve written a paper, masha’Allah tabarakAllah, hope you’re not bringing undue attention to the issue.
1. Not having a written mission statement does not mean there is no focus. Nurayn does not yet have a mission statement does that mean it has no focus? There are two overriding goals to begin discussion and positive action on women’s meaningful inclusion and participation in our communities as can be evidenced by the accommodation within our masajid. If that’s feminism, so be it, I’d like to think that is directly from the unchanging values of Islam.
2. Simply not true as has been stated repeatedly but will do so again here fore your benefit. Our first mode of action is always dialogue, discussion, and engagement with those within a community. The only reason we are having this discussion is because the media has been involved including the Muslim media. This has opened more doors than years of talking and writing ever has in a shorter amount of time.
3. While some sisters enjoy what they perceive as a freeing existence and others believe is a marginalized existence, the vast majority of those I have spoken to over the years recognize there are issues within our community. There are many scholarly studies and papers from the Women Friendly Mosque project co-signed by just about every major Muslim organization in America as well as CAIR’s 2001 survey of mosques bears this out.
4. Pray In has accomplished much and is still accomplishing much, people are masajid are coming to us, are being proactive and taking steps to address these issues, chains have come off exit doors, the awareness has been raised, you and I are even having a discussion, people have asked how they can begin Pray Ins in their own communities, etc. There are common misconceptions about the pray-ins in Washington and in Virginia, hopefully you’ll read up on the comments to correct that misinformation for yourself.
No one is trying to force change, we recognize change comes from within but as Dr. Mattson pointed out so often it is only the more outrageous actions, which garner attention. Are you upset that we’ve been talking and working with people within our communities or by the panel discussion or simply by the few more sensational stories you might have heard, which allows you to think you can make gross generalizations and misstatements with any kind of accuracy? A little bit of education in Islam, c’mon, while that may be true for some, that is not the situation for many. Remember the discussion about seating arrangements, it’s not about education at all.
5. And the brothers that assaulted me were high-minded and fair in your opinion? Alhamdulillah, the Fairfax County Magistrate didn’t share that opinion.
6. I’ve been to many communities where sisters have no voice at all or are mostly excluded from the masjid. If you haven’t been to these, alhamdulillah but perhaps you need to travel a bit wider.
7. Women are deterred from learning and coming to the masjid all the time in so many ways, if you can’t understand how it probably stems from your lack of female-ness. If you’d like me to explain it perhaps that can be the subject of another post, insha’Allah.
8. You know this is such an interesting point, which is among one of my motivations for writing and participating. Do you know what it’s like to come into Islam or perhaps return to practicing Islam and see the lie and intellectual and spiritual dissonance between what we say Islam is and how we demonstrate it in our communities? Have you then seen people you know that were once sincerely interested in Islam or who actually converted turn their back on the deen? I have, over and over and over again. Why? Those associations, which you speak about also work in reverse for others.
tariqislam
June 8, 2010 at 4:02 PM
1. Nurayn is not staging protests that cause an uproar within the community. The focus of Nurayn is to have the biggest class possible at the highest quality possible, and running it without a hitch. At least that’s the goal of its leadership. For you to draw a comparison with Nurayn is really just obtuse at this point.
2. You really expect results from a few conversations and dialogue? The change you seek comes from spending a LOT of time, persisting, persevering and THEN succeeding towards a goal. This is especially true when the community is resistant to the change. Look at how long it took the Prophet (saw), and he had the direct help of Allah (swt). You can’t make a few phone calls and then when there are no results, you stage an uproarious pray-in. Now it just seems like Pray In makes a few calls or visits to cover their backs, and then continue with their initial goal of staging a protest.
3. You have failed to counter my point. I understand there are studies abound that there are many issues regarding women in masaajid and in Islam in general. I’ll sign those studies myself. I completely agree with you there. What I’m asking for is hard evidence and proof that you indeed have a right to represent a majority opinion. Numbers, stats, anything. The existence of acknowledgment of an issue does not preclude you to become representative of that issue without being able to back that representation up with solid evidence that the majority indeed does feel this way. Otherwise you are acting out of bounds, which is exactly how it’s coming off right now.
4. I know that you are not trying to force change, but effectively by your actions, that’s exactly what you ARE doing. Intentions do not justify the actions to other people. And I have actually not read a single sensationalist story… though I have read a lot of press releases and articles regarding your movement, and they seemed relatively unbiased. My concern is the effect it has on non-Muslim readers and their perception of the Muslim Community at large. I am not making any generalizations or misstatements… can you point one out? Dr. Mattson is right, but I think you are taking that statement very liberally in the sense that you are acting outside of the community, which the Prophet (pbuh) himself disliked, to my knowledge.
5. You did not address this point at all. I care only for the condescending tone that I have repeatedly noticed. I don’t care who those brothers are or what they did, they do not concern me except that I pray to Allah that He grants them guidance, forgives them for whatever wrong they did to you, and that you can forgive them instead of taking legal action. Ironically, your response to this point was condescending in and of itself through your outright deflection. Address the point properly please.
6. So you think walking in, staging a Pray In, and disrespecting the community in that manner is going to get the brothers to respect your ideals? Yes, the leadership will listen and act because of the drastic measures, but the community itself, at the individual level, will grant you no more respect than you show them. This is probably my biggest point so I’m hoping you have made it this far.
7. I would actually enjoy reading that very much, so I look forward to a post of that nature. I mean this sincerely.
8. When an individual speaks out against the deen, or a masjid, or anyone… that is not someone I would associate with. Even if they are right, they are not doing anyone any good by speaking maliciously. It’s one thing to say something online or into a microphone, it’s easy at that point. Sound bites are a dime a dozen and they do much damage and they reflect on character. I think this point applies to all of us… just be wary of who you associate with, and I say that as your brother.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 7:31 PM
1. Not at all, and even though we are both in Nurayn, I disagree that that is our main mission. Amazing, isn’t it? How two people within a organization without a formalized mission statement can disagree over what each one believes is the mission but still work together towards some commonality.
2. We have seen change, Tariq and you know what conversations and dialogue and do have an effect even if not always immediate but planting seeds of truth can bear fruits later on. It’s not about a few phone calls, it’s about an openness to dialogue and currently we are engaged in discussions with at least three communities, so chill out, allow the process to unfold, check your false assumptions at the door, and have some husn ad-dhan.
3. Are you good with surveys and stats, want to create one for us to use? I’m open to surveys and stats, maybe we can get Dalia Mogahed and the Gallup to conduct one for us. Not having a survey in hand does not preclude action on issues. In my community, sister and I had talked about the issue of chaining and locking the exit doors shut, I didn’t have hard and fast data to present to the shura but after 7 years, I decided to present my case to them using arguments of the dangerousness and fire hazard among others, none of which included numbers other than the relevant section of the fire code manual. Not all arguments need be made with numbers even though they can sometimes be of benefit.
4. My concern is also for the perception and the reality within the Muslim community as well as the non-Muslim one. It strikes very close to home for me, in fact in my own family, who I have to be careful about which masjid to bring them to, why? Because I don’t want them turned off from Islam before they even hear the message by penalty boxes and sensory deprivation. I’m not working from without but within, I know personally the harmful effects of seeing the dissonance between the texts and the implementation.
5. Tone is highly subjective and is inevitably colored by one’s own biases. You don’t like my tone that’s fine, I can work on it, I didn’t like yours either in some of your comments. Let’s not forget to make excuses and think well of each other as we cannot walk in each other’s shoes.
6. Doing my best, it’s not easy to make it through the comments. The movement utilizes diverse means and avenues available as I mentioned in my response to iMuslim, meaningful change does not always happen by waiting to build consensus amongst everyone, not everyone will agree on every issue, and we can see from a plethora of examples that it sometimes requires forward thinking individuals be they political or social leaders, activists, teachers, politicians, or ordinary folks with some courage to stand up for what’s right despite the hostility in order to move away from the forces of marginalization and “mindless complacency.”
7. Okay, but do follow up with reminders every now and again, insha Allah.
Jazak’Allah khayr for the mostly civil, very interesting and enlightening discussion.
Fatima
June 9, 2010 at 12:20 AM
Assalamu Aleikum
Tariqislam…
Your post is very long and I will do my best to respond effectively to it…
Communicating in Accordance With the Sunnah: A Brotherรขโฌโขs Protest Against Marginalization of the Muslim Community
((I like your alliteration of the title to Ify’s article… very clever… but by the end of your comments we are still not enlightened, via hadith/sunnah, the “correct” means of communication))
“Let me start by saying that I support not having physical barriers,” … by your (and others’) silence you are supporting the barriers. If you just keep walking in to pray and out again without questioning where the other half (or more) of the congregation is, you are contributing to the continuance of this practice.
“First, there is no mission statement.” We don’t need one. It is a simple one sentence statement. We seek to have women join the congregation on the main prayer floor behind the men”. “…the mask of feminism” … you are using the word “feminism”, not us. Even if we did use it there is nothing wrong with it. Our Beloved Prophet was the first and best feminist when he commanded the people to stop burying the female child. “… can only yield negative results.” Eu contraire… PRAY IN is having very positive results… several communities in the area are being proactive and are either removing barriers altogether or working out compromise so that all sisters can be comfortable.
“This movement has gone straight to the media. …You speak of the marginalization of sisters, yet that is exactly what this movement does in the eyes of the media regarding the overall community.”
What has happened so far by people trying to address the issue quietly and covering faults is … nothing. It gets swept under the rug, covered, and treated as though nothing has happened. And stop treating the media as though it is an extension of the devil himself. In fact, would you have the same criticism of CAIR, ISNA, ICNA or MAS when they “go straight to the media” to issue statements? Women in Muslim communities are, by and large, marginalized. It does not make it more or less so that the media is aware of this. Don’t be so naive to think that the media is not aware of this dynamic… they are covering the various faces of misogyny around the world and across the United States.
” They will take sound bites and re-contextualize them to improve ratings. To think that the media will accurately depict all of the important facets and complex issues surrounding the state of the Muslim woman in the masjid is a joke, particularly when they do not even understand the basics of Islam itself. More than that, they are communicating their re-interpretation of what they hear from you to the general public who know even LESS about Islam.” The mainstream media has portrayed this issue with more fairness, accuracy and context than has been by Muslim writers. I can’t believe the disinformation being spread by those who never met a single one of us nor even questioned, honestly, any one of us. The mainstream media has asked many pertinent questions and have allowed us to explain the dynamics of the issue sufficiently to present the story accurately. Have you even read the stories or is this article on MuslimMatters the first you’ve read of it?
“…suddenly Pray In becomes the voice of the Muslim woman…” PRAY IN has become the voice of those women who do not want to be marginalized, humiliated and assaulted with the segregation that occurs.
“… nothing suggesting that you speak for any sort of majority…”. Who said majority? And why would it need to be a majority? The test for succeeding against injustice is that the minority is treated well.
“… Pray In has accomplished nothing in terms of communicating in accordance with the sunnah.” … ok, please educate us on “communicating in accordance with the sunnah”. We are communicating with the community leaders. We do not need to report to the general public about every single meeting or communication. What the general public is seeing is the results of the failure of community leaders to discuss the issue constructively.
“… Like I said, you canรขโฌโขt force that ideal through a slap in the face protest. Knowing your audience means knowing the community, knowing how they will react, and knowing how you can effectively reach them. …”
I remember feeling sincere compassion for the people at the mosque after our first protest. There were two individuals in particular who were quite agitated and it showed on their faces. I know where they are coming from. They believe that their position is right and we are challenging that. Change is hard but until they are brought to the discomfort of having their position challenged they will have no reason to even THINK about what we are asking for. We are educating people. We spend a great deal of effort, and resources, to provide information – from major Muslim organizations – to help them understand the need to address the issue of gender segregation.
5. The general tone that I have noticed, not just this article (but especially this article), has been nothing short of condescending. No one here is a sexist or a chauvinist, and I can only assume from the high quality of the replies here that we are all educated mashallah. When you approach something with such a condescending tone, it completely turns everyone off to what youรขโฌโขre really trying to get at.
Brother, I consider this statement as a nasihah. I thank you for that and may Allah reward you. Please know that it is very hard to go through this unscathed. We have come from a background of extensive experience and we have consulted with many women who have expressed problems in the mosque. It is very hard to detach from the anguish and hurt of it. I apologize if I come off as condescending. We are all, sisters and brothers, equal before Allah.
“… Whether or not there is a barrier for prayer, Muslim women in various communities are taking important roles that shape their surrounding community. There are opportunities abound for Muslim women to be a part of the community. In most masaajid that Iรขโฌโขve been to, prayer is actually the ONLY time that women are segregated from men. …”
I invite you to browse the document published by CAIR in 2001, particularly as relates to women at the mosque, and tell me if women are being given a place of worship, participation or leadership in the mosque. http://www.cair.com/Portals/0/pdf/The_Mosque_in_America_A_National_Portrait.pdf
“… Time with the Imam and gaining knowledge of Islam is an entirely different issue altogether and that effort is not furthered by what Pray In is doing or has done.” No, it is not. Women in separate prayer areas are invisible. They are expected to come and go silently and without notice. If they then leave their expected areas they are intimidated by many means… stares or disapproving looks, they are told to go to the women’s area and Imams will regularly ignore the women in favor of the men… or just walk away from them. I have had this happen to me and have received many reports of it from other women.
“… If there are not classes, she is perfectly within her right to start one, and may Allah reward her immensely for that.” This would be the blind person seeking guidance from the dimly sighted…
“Certain associations that Pray In has really take away from its credibility in most communities. Not only my opinion, but also itรขโฌโขs a simple truth and I will leave it at that.” It is your opinion… which can be wrong… and cannot be assumed to be truth. If you allow the participation of a person(s) in the PRAY IN movement to discredit our message in your eyes, then you are focusing on the wrong thing. As I responded to this question with another interviewer, are the protests against the attack on the flotilla going to Gaza discredited by the participation of Jews? No. They are standing up against injustice.
“Once again let me be clear. I agree with the underlying concept of the Pray In movement and may Allah reward you for any good that you have done. I think barriers and curtains should go away, and that sisters should be able to pray behind the men in the same room in accordance with the sunnah.
But your lack of understanding when it comes to tact, strategy, and communication…” We do not lack understanding of tact, strategy and communication… you simply disagree with protest as a means to actuate change. It is an avenue available to us both on secular grounds and also on religious grounds. Yes, I know … you are slapping your head and saying WHAT?!?!?!…. the Beloved Prophet himself led a protest when he entered the Kaaba and broke the idols there.
It is 1:20am on Wednesday 6/9/10… I am tired… and I have many other obligations to meet.
I will answer more posts when I am able.
Fatima
tariqislam
June 10, 2010 at 4:09 PM
I will keep this brief because this is getting to the point of an online argument. And we all know that an online argument is utterly useless.
Your entire post, literally just about every word, still does not address what my original post was about: communication. You simply brushed it aside by asking me not to try and teach you the sunnah of communication. You mentioned the example of the protest that the Prophet (pbuh) held when he marched into Mecca. That wasn’t a protest. People were converting left and right, even during his actual march into the city. There was no majority that he was defying anymore. Victory was his at that point, so he could act in accordance to what he thought was best without having to worry about provoking people in the wrong manner. Pray In is doing the opposite, so your example is absolutely irrelevant. The sunnah of communication can be seen throughout his life however, where he ALWAYS took into consideration WHO he was talking to, HOW they would react, and the best way to go about actuating change given those variables. In other words, he was considerate and used good manners. I appreciate the effort in you offering the example for justification however.
You mentioned feeling compassion when you saw the faces of people who had been insulted. Yet you did nothing to fix that. In fact you persist to the point where you believe that you know what’s best for them, much like a mother for their child in teaching a lesson. That is where the condescending attitude comes from.
I have read various accounts of the movement from non-Muslim and Muslim sources alike (mostly non-Muslim), this is not new to me, and this is not the only article I’ve read. That was a ridiculous question and one that you really shouldn’t have bothered asking (though I’m sure you asked to direct criticism at my level of knowledge and understanding). I’ve also taken the liberty of becoming very familiar with both Sr Ify’s blog posts on this subject, and have read articles about this written by Asra Noumani all before I even read this article on MM. JAK for double-checking though on how informed I am.
Lastly, I do not disagree with protest at all… it is indeed needed to actuate change as you say. I disagree however with how Pray In is carrying it out. It’s not a matter of challenging the norm, you are offending people. I think in the long run, it is unwise. While you will obviously make plenty of progress, I don’t think offending people along the way is the way to go about actuating that change. The ends do not justify the means in Islam. You say that you communicate with community leaders… but again how much time and effort are you spending in doing that before you resort to outright physical protest? Ghaza protests are at the point where communication is not getting anywhere, so please stop debasing that movement by comparing your own to it in any way shape or form.
tariqislam
June 7, 2010 at 8:57 PM
One other piece of advice… seek advice from others who have been successful without having to cause such angst and uproar. There are organizations that persevere. It may take them more time, but the benefits and the change is more sincere and lasting. Change is always difficult and people don’t tend to like it, but with a good presentation and execution, it’s very possible to achieve.
You quoted Dr. Mattson much in your article, but have you sought her advice on your approach and methodologies? Would she approve?
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 11:43 PM
We’ve been seeking consultation from many successful movements and leaders and participants. Yet, we see those often loudest in opposition are those with no record of anything, positive or negative other than sitting on the sidelines criticizing even if they say they agree with the underlying issues but dislike the methodology. Ready to get involved and do something, Tariq? The challenge is out there for anyone courageous and committed enough to work for lasting change.
tariqislam
June 8, 2010 at 3:35 PM
What organizations have you consulted? Have you spoken with shuyukh (male and female alike)? What are their opinions? Until you provide names and their opinions, I have a hard time believing that sound-minded orgs and individuals would sign off on this sort of thing.
I am absolutely ready to get involved… at the very least I plan on devoting many of my khutbah’s to the issue of feminism in Islam and the advancement of women within the subcultures of Muslim communities.
If you have any other avenues in which I can help further the cause of the Muslim woman, let me know since you have been fighting this battle long before anyone here I’m sure. I will not however participate in Pray In, in any shape or form. It is not agreeable or proper in my opinion, and there are other more diplomatic avenues to exhaust first.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 7:42 PM
Where do you give khutbah? And what are the arrangements for women like there? And if you have notes or research on topics germane to the discussion, I’d be interested to see them. Well quite a few of the people in Pray In are old enough to be your mom or dad so I doubt you’ve been fighting longer than they have.
Within Pray In we have individuals who have participated in a number of social movements since before either of us were born including in the fight against apartheid in South Africa and Civil Rights here and abroad. You’ve given me the idea for another post, insha’Allah the varying statements we’ve heard in support or in opposition to our goals and methodologies from various organizations, shuyukh, and activists.
mathbooh
June 9, 2010 at 5:00 PM
slm.
they’ve fought against apartheid in SA. really? i’d b interested in gettin 2 know them,being a member of the governing party of SA(Mandela’s Party).The Almighty willing,PrayIn will b wher shamima sheikh is in a few yrs time.the other bros n sisters shouldn’t b 2 afraid of bullies that bring the media n try 2 force their opinions upon the rest.their late guru lies in her grave(May The Almighty have mercy on her) n her movement is almost in sakaraat.Istiqamah n Taqwah is absolutely paramount.The Deobandi Ulema(not orthodox in the eyes of many on this site/with a salafi inclination) of SA remained steadfast on this issue,in the face of harsh critisicm and undue attention brought upon by these ‘protestors’.However,through the Grace of The Almighty,as things stand 2day,there are almost no masajid in 7 out of nine provinces(predominantly ahnaaf) that have facilities for woman to perform salaahbehind the imam.the 2 provinces that have masajid where woman can perform salaah behind the imam,have proper and adequate barriers in place(predominantly shafi3ee-these were always there n there is an accepted n amicable diff.of opinion between the Shafi3ee’s n the Ahnaaf on this matter in SA).and if u want 2 estimate the standard of SA Ulema than a site that comes to mind is http://www.askimam.org .sister naseebah makes some excellent points……..my tone might seem a bit harsh,but it is apparent that the author n fatima have the view that can b summarised as ‘it’s my way,or the highway’.Islam cannot b held ransom by a few.we shud b very carefull of ppl who parade with/4 the media,especially when they r n emulsion of homo-sympathyser/s(amongst others) presenting themselves as defenders of the sunnah(sic) n peddling their slanted views viz-a-viz the Qur’an and Sunnah.we shud ascertain as 2 where they receive their financial,inspirational e.t.c. backing from. May The Almighty protect us from ourselves n from all evil.
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 5:09 PM
Salaam,
Yes mathbooh, and we should ascertain where you learned your manners because you’ve demonstrated a lack of them here. Your incorrect and rather poor summation of my views is woeful, indeed.
mathbooh
June 9, 2010 at 6:30 PM
slm.
lol.if u had a reconciliatory tone,mayb manners wud hav been appropriate.however,u wish 2 surge 4ward within the ranks of nomaani n her ilk,ur leader being a homo-sympathyser.nor have u distanced urself from the wrongdoings of ur colleagues and either justified/remained silent about them.” Your incorrect and rather poor summation of my views is woeful, indeed.”-1st of all,here n in another post,u emphasize that u have within ur ranks people who wer active against apartheid in SA n wer active in the civil rights movt.-implying that somehow,urs is a struggle against oppression.i thought i’d just point out 2 u,that ur implication=fail and that I including others who hold n opposing view,r part of the very/leading organisation that fought apartheid in S.A. millitary,politicaly,economically e.t.c. regarding the other part of my post,i thaught it appropriate 2 inspire my bros n sisters in islam,with a relatively recent example that they might be able 2 relate 2.especially,coz in this case haq destroyed baatil,n it is n example of one of ur pioneers failings.its also 2 discourage u from ur self-destructive path that u embarkin on….
interesting link….http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1716/MR1716.pdf
tariqislam
June 10, 2010 at 4:21 PM
I give khutbah’s at various ADAMS center branches. In all locations, the women sit behind a thigh-high barrier. They are not solid barriers so they can still see, and are visible by the khateeb over the barriers as well. There is ample room, and in general the presence of the sisters is very positive and well received by everyone alhamdulillah. These specific barriers do not bother me because they are not so high as to cut the sisters off, but afford both the brothers and sisters a level of physical privacy.
I’m not sure why you just compared my age to those of folks involved in the Pray In movement… that was a little out of left field but um… ok alhamdulillah good for them. I’m sure their experience is invaluable.
I’m being sincere in asking how I can help, but I stand firm in my opposition to Pray In’s methods of protest. I wasn’t being facetious or anything lol. My limited resources and abilities only allow me to speak during khutbah’s on this topic. If that’s not useful or if your tone continues in this manner where you’re rubbing my face in my lack of experience vs how others have been doing this before I was born, I withdraw my offer with no hesitation. Again the condescending nature that you and others have taken on this issue prevents anyone from wanting to help, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt because I know that in general you are a sincere person with good intentions. Either way I’m not sure how much I could help anyway. I’ll contact you offline more about this inshaAllah.
Last and most importantly… once again… you have not answered my question of who exactly you’ve talked to and sought advice from in terms of other organizations and scholars (male and female alike). Having age and experience is great, but they still hold the same bias as you. It is best to have an objective opinion and perspective, Allahu a’alem.
Ify Okoye
June 12, 2010 at 7:36 AM
Tariq: I mentioned your age because you incorrectly claimed that you had probably been fighting for these issues before any of us, which is hardly the case when others were fighting for a plethora of social issues before either of us were born. It wasn’t meant as an insult but just to give you a bit of added perspective.
Indeed, I take you at your word and I intend to call on you, insha’Allah in order to help further these important issues and causes.
In my capacity, I’ve spoken to Sh. Yasir and Imam Safi. We’ve been contacted by another local imam who would like to get better acquainted with the issues and supports the goals seeking to end the marginalization of women. And just about all of the major Muslim orgs and some well-known scholars/activists in the U.S. signed on to a doc called Women-Friendly mosques, which has a similar perspective to Pray-In , read it, it’s available online, and check out the names there.
Olivia
June 7, 2010 at 10:40 PM
@ Siraaj, I remember that Imam. I’m sure he still runs a really nice masjid, insha’Allah =)
I agree a lot with what is being said here. I don’t think having a partition is wrong in and of itself, but I do feel that it has retarded the growth and hindered the participation of our Muslim sisters in many ways. At my own masjid (one of the biggest and most popular in the country) we have the balcony thing going on. It is very dangerous of the kids and ours currently has a busted, taped up baby gate blocking a flight of stairs, and despite my bringing this up to one of the managers, they still haven’t fixed it. And whenever the mic goes out at juma’, not a single sister feels comfortable enough to give a shout over the balcony that it isn’t working. I’d do it if I didn’t think I’d get tarred and feathered =)
But I think this attitude is further linked to another issue which is cross-gender, and this is that people have an overly iconic view of the masjid in terms of its holiness. Like, raising your voice in the masjid would somehow desecrate its sacred grounds sort of thing. I honestly feel that half the reason sisters don’t take care of their issues (at least at our masjid) is that they don’t even have a proper understanding of what sort of behavior is allowed in the masjid. Like, they think its better to maintain silence for the sake of the masjid’s “holiness” then tell them they can’t hear the khutbah!
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 11:48 PM
Olivia, I’m with you. For years after my conversion, I lost my voice and my courage and even my name out of social pressure to conform to some idealized image within our communities and have witnessed countless strange and unnecessary and dangerous conditions but didn’t feel at all empowered to speak about it, rather the message being pushed despite khateebs telling us the voice wasn’t awrah was that it was awrah and it was indecent to speak up, sit in the front of a class, raise your hand if you had a question or knew an answer or even to be in the masjid or out of your house or whatever.
AsimG
June 8, 2010 at 5:35 AM
Regarding that masjid, I remember going there for Ramadan and the Ameer coming on the mic and screaming about how the women’s area smelled like urine (and/or had urine stains) and they had to pay to clean the carpets.
So maybe there’s this wrong understanding that the women there do not take care of the area or watch their kids so fixing the gate is not a major concern? Allahu Alim
And there have been plenty of sisters who have complained about how other sisters and their children misbehave and make it a miserable experience for them. Even when they offered free baby sitting service, a brother still had to come on the mic and almost beg for the sisters to send their kids down there.
Olivia
June 8, 2010 at 1:08 PM
Hm, Brother I don’t think you’re talking about our masjid. We don’t have an Ameer but an Imam. However, during Ramadan, the Auntie Gestapo upstairs does an excellent job in making sure all women with children under 7 pray downstairs in the basement, so I believe you must be confused about the masjid you are referring to. Oh, and there is certainly never any free babysitting at our masjid, for all they complain about kids during Ramadan. Money is routed toward extravagant chandaliers, not babysitting during Taraweeh. I also can’t imagine any child peeing on the floor there without us having to carry aunties out in body bags. I tried to change a diaper there once off to the side and an auntie became rather flippant with me. Thank God I’ve been there long enough to know how to play these things off and still get done what I need to. And this also begs the question, why are older women so intolerant toward young mothers? It’s a very striking trend at our masjid.
It may be true that some women let their kids run lose too much in general, not just as the masjid, but no offense I think this is also a cultural thing about I think perhaps some mothers from certain countries perhaps don’t understand the norm of American masajid. Perhaps if they didn’t feel shouted-down at the masjid they’d have more time to spend at the masjid to get a feel for what’s normal. Even in masajid here in the US, the masjid in our area is very intolerant toward kids whereas 3 others more south that i frequent are more tolerant, and I have noticed the change is related to different ethnic groups dominating the masjid.
However, the baby gate is a completely separate issue. It is an open flight of stairs going from the women’s the men’s section, so they took an old wooden BROKEN gate and duct-taped 3 chairs to the front of it and pushed it in front of the opening (why the masjid didn’t have a gate with a latch built I have no idea, I suppose they didn’t think that through). Now, because of this ad-hoc contraption, any child between one and three can climb up on the top of the chairs and cilmb OVER THE BALCONY RAILING and plummet to his death. I have told someone this who manages some affairs at the masjid that a real secure gate needs to be installed and yet 2 years later here we are, nothing has changed.
Out of sight out of mind? Cheapness? Misprioritizing? At the very least the women’s section should be safe for children, unless its an inadvertent attempt to keep them out of the masjid. Honestly, I feel nervous taking my son there.
Sayf
June 7, 2010 at 11:13 PM
While this dialogue is going on people need to keep in mind there are sisters around like these:
http://muslimmatters.org/2010/04/28/haya-showcasing-the-shyness-of-a-shepherdess/#comment-66047
There’s a balance to be struck.
Ify Okoye
June 7, 2010 at 11:49 PM
Did you see my comment on that post, Sayf?
Sayf
June 8, 2010 at 12:00 AM
Of course sister.
Noor
June 8, 2010 at 12:11 AM
Salam aleikum and jazakalakheir.
You have brought to us a burning issue which cannot be ignored. Although it is not an issue that is black and white (so to speak) but has shades of grey in the fact that both men and women have and will have differing opinions about separation. With this Pray-In my hope is that it won’t turn ugly and that it will make all of us think and participate in discussion.
In my (present) view I feel comfortable in some masajid where women are separated from men with something like a wooden purdah screening where women can see the imam through this screening but it is not easy for the men in the congregation to (look back) and deliberately or inadvertantly see the women. I have very warm memories of attending church all those years ago and seeing how happy families sit together – baby on man’s shoulder, mother holding toddler and feeding him bread, the old with the young, the men with their wives, the teenagers with their lot etc. I am sure there are some masjids where the men and women are co-operative and families are happy with their children enjoying the atmosphere as well.
It is strange that, with all the different nationalities attending some church services, we don’t hear too much about discord due to cultural differences and misunderstandings of the religion accordingly. Most Christians understand their religion well or appear to do so. However, apart from having gender differences in our masajid we also have huge cultural differences and misunderstandings about our religion because of this. Maybe that needs to be taken into consideration as well as the gender debate.
It was mentioned in one comment that a sister took a non-muslim relative to a masjid where the relative was stared at for not wearing the appropriate clothing. This could possibly be remedied if the sisters themselves made an effort in each masjid to provide a stock of all-in-one praying garments for example, with a simple explanation about why we cover ourselves.
Inshallah this pray in will be a positive way of putting women where they should be and hope inshallah that extremists don’t get a chance to ruin it. Unfortunately yes, there are some women who wish to go to the extreme and ‘lead’ the prayer or take off hijab and some men who think the very thought of a woman even entering a masjid with or without ‘proper’ clothing is unacceptable but with perseverence and education maybe we can get somewhere with this inshallah.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 8:18 PM
Wa salaam alaykum and wa iyyaki Noor,
Ameen. We really do seek to foster positive discussion within our communities and yes I agree there are so many shades of gray and so many differing points of view but it is also my hope that we can seek to address these issues and not sweep them under the rug. I remember on my “penalty box” post a few people mentioned that like in this issue we not talk about these issues publicly but for the most part, I have not found anywhere in our community other than in the blogosphere and newspapers where these issues can be discussed.
Very interesting and thought-provoking points about cultural differences and the differences and similarities of experience between the church and the masjid.I have seen some masajid that do have a stock of those quick one or two piece prayer garments in the women’s musallah. That’s some of the proactive thinking I like and am receptive to much more so than the kick the women out of the masjid or put them behind barriers one. Perseverance and education, indeed.
Amad
June 8, 2010 at 2:17 AM
I would just like this opportunity to thank everyone for remaining (mostly) cordial and not getting personal (I didn’t go through everyone of the comments so pls excuse me if I missed any that didn’t fit this description). I think this is one of the few discussions where we haven’t seen attacks on the person, but rather the focus is on ideas.
I urge everyone to remain steadfast to discussing ideas, not those presenting them. Talk to others as if they were in the room with you.
In this discussion, I found this part of the comment here quite profound. Sherman Jackson’s quote (via Darthvaider):
This is as true for those who oppose the effort as those who support it. Sr. Ify is passionate about this, so we must respect that and expect defensiveness just like if someone questioned one of our passions. I know how defensive I can get when someone attacks MM (even when that criticism is fair). I just hope though inshallah that the passions can be channeled in a positive way through efforts that ultimately lead to success that adheres to the Sunnah, and not expulsion orders. A few more words thus:
The strategy employed thus far is NOT working imho. Just because people are talking about the pray-in now because of media pressure doesn’t reflect success. Not all pressure is positive. Maybe the pressure and awareness is being channeled by the masajid leaders into ways to prevent Pray in from making their particular masjid from being the next “target”. That is not what you want to achieve.
If I were you, and I am not you, so excuse me for trying… I would probably start from scratch with a clear mission, support from positive community figures, distancing of negative figures, a study of masjid infrastructure and community views for each “target masjid”, and then a step-by-step approach of ramping up pressure, clearly communicated to the target’s leadership. If you notice, each successful national strategy uses the presence, even if nominal, of a positive well-known figure. If you can mold people’s first impressions of the effort by this figure’s presence, you are already 50% successful. First impressions are indeed lasting.
And no, sister, unfortunately, I cannot join you in this effort for logistical reasons. But regardless of logistics, pls understand that others may simply not share the passion. But just like we may offer suggestions for the next flotilla mission to Gaza, we don’t necessarily have to be on board for those suggestions to be considered.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 8:34 PM
On the contrary, I think it is working, getting people talking in good, getting more people on board is even better, which has happened, and people are starting their own movements completely independent and organic in their own communities plus now when we come calling or emailing as the case may be, we are getting a receptive ear and actual engagement in dialogue, which is critical. It is that willingly to sit down and talk, which was not always the case before that is key and a great success. At times, even if we don’t seek them out, they seek us out and that is a measure success. We’re in it for the long haul, which will come first peace between the Palestinians and Israelis or women’s dignified access, inclusion, and participation in our communities, were I a betting person, which I’m not, I’d take the latter.
Excuses Amad, excuses. :) I’m open to suggestions but that doesn’t mean I’m going to share the enthusiasm of the one making it or even implement it. The best way to see one’s idea into fruition is to do something about it more than just with suggestions for someone else to do it.
Fatima
June 9, 2010 at 12:45 AM
Assalamu Aleikum
Amad,
If I were you, and I am not you, so excuse me for tryingรขโฌยฆ I would probably start from scratch with a clear mission,
(we have one – it is very simple – probably simpler than people would expect and so they discount it as being non-existent)
support from positive community figures (we do)
, distancing of negative figures (this is a volunteer organization – not a club where we screen people so that they conform to my, or anybody’s, standards. If they are Muslim and want to work toward getting women on the main prayer area behind the men – without a barrier – then they are in.)
, a study of masjid infrastructure and community views for each รขโฌลtarget masjidรขโฌย, (it is being done)
and then a step-by-step approach of ramping up pressure,(it is being done)
clearly communicated to the targetรขโฌโขs leadership. (it is being done)
If you notice, each successful national strategy uses the presence, even if nominal, of a positive well-known figure. (If you notice, we model our protests after the sit-in movement. I read from your MM profile that you were born in Pakistan but identify as a US Citizen. I hope you studied the civil rights movement…)
If you can mold peopleรขโฌโขs first impressions of the effort by this figureรขโฌโขs presence, you are already 50% successful. First impressions are indeed lasting. (There is no compulsion in religion, the truth stands clear from error… no matter WHO is speaking the truth. That is the very problem… and an indicator of the attitude of men – and even of women – toward us is that they expect us to have some great “spokesperson” – preferably male. We can speak for our own movement… we are speaking the truth… and we are being kind by addressing the communities directly and openly.)
And no, sister, unfortunately, I cannot join you in this effort for logistical reasons. (If you cannot physically be with us then find some other way to support what we are working for. Speak in the masjid and educate people. Speak to other religious leader about the need to address gender segregation. In fact, we need to print documents – provided or endorsed by CAIR, ISNA, ICNA, MAS and Ingrid Matson – to present to community leaders. There are costs associated with this. Would you care to either print sets of these documents at your location where we can collect them or to provide some funds that can be used to print these documents?))
Fatima
Amad
June 9, 2010 at 1:27 AM
I consider this as a soft dig: “you were born in Pakistan but identify as a US Citizen. I hope you studied the civil rights movement”. I have been casually studying media long enough to know how sentences are loaded and what between-the-lines meanings they suggest.
My birth in Pakistan or my US citizenship has nothing to do with this discussion. There are scholars of civil rights movement who may never have stepped into the US.
With regards to parallels to the civil rights movement, Martin Luther King was an extremely positive, popular figure. If the civil rights movement had picked an Uncle Tom for their leader, someone who clearly colluded with the white supremacists, what do you think the end-result would have been?
The civil rights movement spoke for a vast majority of blacks. The pray-in speaks for only a tiny fraction of the Muslim women, and the onus is on you to prove otherwise.
And I would tell you that many African Americans would be offended how each movement wants to hijack their history for their purpose.
I can sense that you feel that you all are the trailblazers for Muslim women rights and you keep reminding yourself of the challenges that the civil rights movement faced and the Prophet (S) and his early companions faced. And that sort of cognitive dissonance between the obvious negativity that you are receiving from a huge chunk of people (from the spectrum of mainstream) and this lofty goal of being the voice of human rights, will prevent you from taking the reasonable objections into consideration. I would urge you to try to talk to Sherman Jackson and discuss this believed parallel between civil rights movement and pray-in. Then talk to a religious scholar to discuss the believed parallel between early Islam and pray-in. I really think the parallels are marginal at best and perhaps a more genuine, cold-eyes review of the situation may help you see that (or perhaps see that I am wrong).
It is also time to work with some statisticians and pollsters to help you gauge what the general community is feeling. Or perhaps we may be surprised. In fact, I would request if there is anyone among the readers who has some experience in polling to contact us… We may consider supporting the effort so we can move beyond hypotheticals.
Faraz Omar
June 8, 2010 at 2:29 AM
What an utterly disappointing piece. I’ve been in the media for quite some time to know exactly where this is coming from. It is quite sad that Muslims upon the Qur’an and Sunnah would fall for this and get exploited.
Masjid of Dissent was razed down. Ka’b Bin Malik during his isolation received a letter from the king of Ghassan. These are incidents that teach us important lessons. The Muslim world is going through a state of war. The war is not just on the lands, but on the religion, on the community, on the unity, on the beliefs. Millions are being spent for this purpose. I can give several examples from targeted killings of the ulema to raising up foolish leaders for the Muslims.
Take one issue, that may be legitimate, and blow it up in the pretext of solving it. But what is achieved is quite different. It’s not just issues at times, it’s about WHO is hijacking the issues? How they want to achieve it? Is the community prepared? What method is being adopted?
A Muslim community is never perfect, but there are ways to do things. The way women can address their issues is by going to their local community leader, masjid’s imam and put up their specific issues. Not use propaganda and use blanket statements of women being marginalized and oppressed.
Issue 1. Please have this done. Issue 2. We are unable to do such and such. Hand it out. Be specific.
There is absolutely no justification to get out of the jama’ah and work in this manner. Obedience to community leaders is a MUST. What did the Prophet SAW say about Muslim leaders who rob your wealth and oppress you? Rebel against them? I know this doesn’t apply in the sense there is no khalifa. But the message and the spirit of that message remains.
This is what happens when people are cut off from the scholars and the people of knowledge. And every Tom, Dick and Harry want to do something that they think is good. But how many people want to achieve good, but they never reach it. Why not discuss each and every issue with imams based on knowledge and not on emotions? See how bigger issues in the community were solved in the past. There needs to be someone mature to handle these things.
The problem is not really women’s space. The problem is much deeper. Some of your bad experiences are being exploited to turn you against the Muslim community, to fill hatred, and use that to split up communities and cause confusion and fear.
Men too face issues and troubles within the community, but you don’t see protests because the topic of women is a politicized one. You have absolutely no idea what this “protest” will achieve. And I’m willing to believe you’re quite naive. Because this whole thing clearly is not based on knowledge and wisdom. People — men and women — should stay within their limits.
Finally, I question the editorial policy and “insight” and “vision” of Muslim Matters for allowing this piece to be published in the first place.
Uthman
June 8, 2010 at 2:59 AM
@farazomar +10 mashAllah!
Amad
June 8, 2010 at 4:28 AM
Appreciate your sentiment, but we, as residents in the West (at least most of us) deal with the realities of the ground to a larger extent than people outside the West. So, if I were to suggest what you should or should not allow to be published in the Saudi Gazette, you may find that be strange, even if you are polite about it.
As long as the piece complies with general Islamic guidelines, we will allow our authors to express their individually formed opinions and views. As you can see, other authors disagree, but that’s the beauty of MM. If we are interested in a group-think outlet, then that would defeat the whole point of blogging. Let’s argue with the issues instead of being tempted to censor them.
Our vision is clear (you can read it in “About Us”) and as such, these issues relevant.
I had made a request to stay focused on the issues, and not take a plunge into what Ify knows or doesn’t or what she believes or doesn’t. Let’s not make this about the messenger, but instead focus on the message.
Faraz Omar
June 8, 2010 at 5:54 AM
baarak Allahu feek amad. I hope I did not come across as an “external attacker” of MM, which is not the way I view it. I was unsure whether to write the comment or not because i knew the context argument would be there.
I seek forgiveness for saying what is incorrect and for having hurt anyone in the process.
I just feel that some discussions should take place between specific people, in specific gatherings, specific forums, among authorities, rather than making it public. And that is general — not specific with SG or MM. This is just my opinion to what I feel is Islamically right.
I do want to focus on the message, and that’s why i wrote that despite my regard and respect for the sister.
I apologize once again.
Amad
June 8, 2010 at 7:45 AM
No need for apologies Faraz… we all know you are a well-wisher and contributor to MM…
anon.
June 8, 2010 at 8:10 AM
Regardless of what the author’s personal views are, it is still shameful for MM to allow the posting of such a ridiculously ignorant and thoughtless piece…If an author came out with a piece supporting Israel’s raid on the flotillas, would MM allow it, citing it as “individually formed opinions and views”? Probably not.. Why? Because it is obviously wrong.
Is there any scholarly support for this group? Have any ulama endorsed their mission and actions? Be careful where you get your Deen from, and what you do with it. It is not a trivial matter. Do the MM authors and admins really want to risk being responsible for a fitna spreading in the Muslim community?
May Allah give us all the right understanding of Deen, and protect us from interpreting the Deen based on our desires. Amin.
Amad
June 8, 2010 at 8:33 AM
Just when we thought we’d actually have civil discussions without futile accusations thrown at us, “anon.” had to step in to remind us Muslims can’t do it that way :)
MuslimLink should also be responsible for spreading fitna then, right, since they published a piece as well?
Such arguments of keeping our issues hidden lest some fitna might inflict the community are old and boring. In this day and age, you can’t hide information. I think it is much better to have concerns laid out and discussed.
Finally, we are not discussing the fiqh of prayer here or the pillars of hajj… we are discussing a community issue that has nothing to do with “where you get your deen from”.
Faraz Omar
June 8, 2010 at 10:31 AM
hmm… may b it’s not abt hiding, but about what opinion one is voicing.
on a lighter note… u look like an arabian knight in that pic. u resemble sheikh mohammed of dubai..lol
Mohammad Sabah
June 8, 2010 at 1:07 PM
Assalam alaykum.
I agree that it’s important not to hide information, however, you seem to have overlooked Anon’s primary point. Which is, we have to be careful that we do not create more fitnah and reasons for disunity amongst the Muslims – which already is weak and divided. And hence, it would be advisable to get some scholarly opinion on this (e.g. Sh. Yasir Qadhi) and get them involved so they can guide further. The article does bring out the issues a primary issue with prayer locations for women in masajids and women’s involvement generally – those are valid points that should be raised, discussed and fixed. However, we have to be careful not to get carried away and ignore the fact that there are other bigger challenges/causes that face the community at large that may have a bearing on this issue e.g. funds in masajids, volunteering effort, Islamic classes, community activities @ community.. The goal is to bring the Ummah together and not cause more fitnah.
Instead of being defensive about MM and using Muslim Link as a pretext, I would advise you brother Amad to read Anon’s points carefully – all he is asking is for scholarly opinion and involvement in this. Also we should remember that any step we take should lead to greater overall good, and not create more fitnah for the Muslim Ummah.
May Allah guide us and along his right path, and protect us from innovations and fitnah. Ameen.
Amad
June 8, 2010 at 1:12 PM
noted.
i’ll ask YQ if he has any thoughts… privately he appreciates the effort but has similar concerns about some of the parties involved.
Amad
June 8, 2010 at 4:09 PM
^Faraz
when in Rome (GCC), do as the Romans (GCC’ers) do :)
it’s cool what cropping can do to perspectives :)
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 8:40 PM
Faraz, it’s rather sad that your comments are full of the misplaced emotion and naivete you accuse others of having, and I don’t have hatred for the Muslim community.
suhail
June 9, 2010 at 10:19 AM
Well the problem is not your hatred with the community itself but the people you are working with. These are the same people who want to change Islam and its sources. I am just not sure why you even want to associate with these people.
Scholars have said many a times that people should not sit with the people of Bidah and yes you can cooperate with people in good things. But the progressives have an agenda and they will use you and your purpose for that reason alone. Do they want to pray? Ask them? Most of them do not even pray Jumah than why are they so concerned about the Masajid and space within it.
If you really want to change something than it cannot be done by praying in or something like that because it will lead to furthur confrontations and issues within the community who are already reeling because of Islamophobia.
If you want to continue this excersice than it is better for you to find some people who are not associated with the Progressives because that would not achieve you anything but malign your reputation which hopefully you do not want.
Do remember this thing is spreading like wildfire because of the media. It is making news all over the world because as usual Media has made this issue as being a feminist movement within Islam. People like Asra Nomani and other Progressives are going to use this to furthur there agenda.
So you have to be really careful with these kind of people.
naureen
June 8, 2010 at 3:30 AM
As I stated earlier, I am from the va/dc area and that is
where I started practicing and lived for a long time. I would like to speak about
3 main masajid in the area
I know and have experience with these main masajid in the va/md/dc area:
-darussalam(md). I know the imam and many sisters who work there. That place is crawling
with sister involvement. In fact the school could not run without sisters.
-adams: same thing as above. Tons of things for sisters.
-Darulhijra: so much of their stuff is run by sisters. dawah projects/food banks/workshops.
again know the imam as well and have so much respect for him.
—>Sisters who visit from outside FEEL that women are not involved here but once I lived in
this specific community, um SISTERS ARE INVOLVED IN EVVERYTHING.
I know Sheikh safi, sheikh shakir and sheikh magid the imam of each of these places
and these ppl are very open minded, balanced individuals.
-MAS : muslim american society. FULL TO THE BRIM with sister involvement.
In this whole pray in thing, if ANYONE wants to tell me that women are not involved
in these masajid/organization or somehow excluded, here is my reaction:
-either they do not belong to the community
-or they have a very narrow or specific definition of involvement which needs to be spelled out.
These are thriving active mosques. i myself have gone to the administration office of each side
and have not been treated with anything but respect.
Having lived/been part of all these communities in one way or another,
I know DOZENS of sisters who are involved in these masajid and I honestly do not know
of any feeling of ‘sisters aren’t involved’.
For anyone who wants to get involved, all u gota do is go talk to any leader in the mosque
or anyone doing any project and get involved.
If the pray in movement is talking about OTHER masajid/musallas in the dc/va area
I can’t speak for them obviously as I have no experience with them.
Finally, I think its totally fine that muslimmatters published this peice. Voices, all of
them do need to be heard and it becomes clear then what people really feel once they
respond to the article. This is called dialogue and it needs to happen in our communities.
Faraz Omar
June 8, 2010 at 3:53 AM
I also request MM, for the benefit of the community there, to address localized issues that Muslims face in a proper manner, so it would bring about the required benefits. That, in my opinion, should truly be the purpose of MM. One could have interviews and discussions with imams and people of knowledge reg community issues posted on the blog, so things are addressed and resolved in the way ahlus-sunnah would.
It would be taking the lead and setting an example. It will also bring people closer to ahlus sunnah. They would follow their example and choose their companionship. Of course the main purpose should be the pleasure of Allah by serving His slaves…
Amad
June 8, 2010 at 4:32 AM
The community is not in fact served well by just focusing on imams and people of knowledge. It is not necessary that every Imam is in tune with what is going on or knows everything that is going on in the community. This in fact is one of our issues. We keep waiting for the imam to do something. The Imams are already stretched thin, they are not super-men.
Trust me, if we were to wait for Imams to address every issue, we’d have one post a month on MM.
abu Rumay-s.a.
June 8, 2010 at 5:00 AM
Masha Allah, healthy discussions and worthwhile comments.
Sister Ify;
May Allah reward you for your sincere efforts in supporting sister’s legitimate issues that are not up to par in some of our masajid..ameen..
As mentioned, these legitmate concerns should not be mixed with the progressive agenda to which most of us have major contentions with since they clearly stray away from the Sharee`a…
i remind myself and anyone who is actively involved in any Islamic related project.
a.. asking Allah to show us the right way from the du`aa, “O Allah, show us the truth as truth is in reality and bless us to follow it, and show us error as error is in reality and bless us to be away from it (error).
b. ibn qayyim (ra) mentions how shaytan can decieve us at times to be engrossed in issues of lesser value and lose sight and sidestep major issues and obligations (such as unity), so may Allah protect us from that. ameen..
Final question:
From all the comments, which items did you benefit from the most and how will you use those points to optimize your future work?
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 9:02 PM
Salaam alaykum abu Rumay-s.a., ameen to your dua and there were so many points of benefit that it’d take another post to mention each one. A few people mentioned they didn’t like the tone, which if one knows me in person, no harm was intended, I can have a bit of a wry or sarcastic sense of humor but it’s not intended to be mean-spirited but the written word is so very different from the spoken one. Also, there is so much misinformation circulating so in many of my comments I took the time to try to correct or at least give another side of the discussion. When the discussion dies down here, I’ll re-read through, and take notes from them to utilize not only for Pray In but also just to better myself.
So often in these sort of online comments particularly the longer ones or the ones with personal stories, we get a tiny glimpse into the hearts and minds and lived experiences of commenters, which is so fascinating to me.
Writing is an intensely personal experience for me, which is why I generally only write about issues that I am passionate about. I know it may be hard to believe but I’m actually very much an introvert, always reflecting and doing introspection, and shy, sometimes painfully so by nature and while that inhibits me in some ways there is also this inner calm and place of peace as well as from my upbringing from which I derive strength to stand up to things like locked and chained exit doors not only because they are a fire hazard and illegal, or women’s marginalization in our communities as evidenced by penalty boxes, not only for myself, but for others as well, those unable to, not willing to, or for those coming after me so that they will never have to known a reality like that. We all have different paths and different talents but I feel very strongly these sorts of things are a part of what was written for me.
All the best.
Sidiq
June 8, 2010 at 8:29 AM
“Some of our supporters have been banned officially or unofficially from a local masjid. Iรขโฌโขm reminded of the hadith of the Bedouin who urinated in the masjid. The companions wanted to jump on him but the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) restrained them and spoke gently with the man. Or in the story of the slander of Aisha, her father Abu Bakr exemplified forgiveness, gentleness, and mercy to those who had slandered his daughter but in our day, we ban those who are assaulted rather than engaging in conversation or attempting any reconciliation.”
The very fact that the Companions wanted to jump on the Bedouin for urinating is indicative of their harsh nature. If the Companions had such harshness when Allah says about them: “You are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind…“(Qur’an 3/110). How is it possible that you expect people who have never seen the Prophet salallahu alayhi wassalam to not act with harshness if the sahabah themselves have contemplated violence even though they are best of people?!
I think if a certain level of fitnah and disruption was caused in the masaajid that was attended by activists, the brothers and sisters who are worshipping have every right to action and those in authority. I do not agree with the mission that you have set yourselves necessarily, I think it’s a step backwards for the muslim community.
Amad
June 8, 2010 at 8:40 AM
I am sorry but that is the strangest lesson that one can extract from the hadith. The example in it should be the Prophet (S) and not the companions. The Companions were provided an example in the Prophet (S). So are we. There are many other occasions where the companions were corrected by the Prophet (S). We don’t look at what was corrected to set the bar for what is acceptable (just because the companions almost did it). Had another bedouin done the same thing in the future, the companions would have remembered the Prophet (S)’s example and did what he did.
Let’s not take strange interpretations to justify wrong action. If the sisters enter a Masjid, and it is troubling to atmosphere, the Imam should simply request a meeting with them after the prayer in a separate room to express his displeasure, and not allow “his men” to manhandle the sisters or try to “control” the situation on their own. Handle the sisters just like we talk about Muslim women in defense of Islam: “we respect and honor women more than any other faith”. Put it in action, even when the women appear not to be respectful of you.
Sidiq
June 8, 2010 at 9:14 AM
It’s a real shame you did not understand the wider lesson that we can learn from the hadeeth of the bedouin. I did not say that people should use violence, if people fall into an error such as being overly harsh then they should be kindly advised as people better than them in the form of the sahabah have also fallen into an error by contemplating violence and they are best generation raised up for mankind.
I’m also reminded of the hadeeth in the musnad of Imam Ahmad when a Companion stood up and said, “What Allah wills and what you will O messenger of Allah”. The Prophet sallalahu alayhi wassalam said “Are you making me an equal to Allah?! Say whatever Allah wills alone”. The Prophet salallahu alayhi wassalam responded with preceived harshness and he is the most kind of all humans. And Allah says about him: “And had you been severe and harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about you…“. What about the hadeeth of Aisha? When Jews greeted the Prophet salallahu alayhi wassalam as “May death be upon you”, Aisha became enraged and responded with “And upon you be death and the curse of Allah and His anger. O brothers of apes and pigs!”. The Prophet salallahu alayhi wassalam advised her and reminded her that he already replied with “And you too”. Aisha was brought up in the house of risalah and she over-stepped the mark with harshness, so how can a person who has not seen the Messenger be perfect and rebuked when they fall into an error in which people better than them have fallen into? These are not strange interpretations but the ahaadeeth of the Prophet salallahu alahyi wassalam and I will not distort them.
Having had more information just now regarding the movement the sisters are calling to, I do not endorse their actions because they have disrupted the worshippers and have openly challenged the authorities without prior consultation and especially the imam.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 9:05 PM
Simply not true. We did not disrupt the worshipers of whom we are also to be included and everywhere we’ve been we’ve done our best to have prior consultation, discussion, and engage the imams and masjid authorities beforehand.
Suhail
June 9, 2010 at 3:44 PM
Do you guys have any other role in that masajid other than going for a pray in? LIke conducting classes , or helping them organize, or any other contribution to the masajid.
I am asking this because in our community we see a lot of sisters working with brothers in various places like halaqas for children, summer school, etc etc. There voices are heard and people pay due respect to them.
If you do not have any involvement in the communities mosque and then you parade in the mosque with people like Asra Nomani who has only caused mischief in the community what do you expect people do.
Sidiq
June 9, 2010 at 6:39 PM
But the imam was forced to delay the Asr prayer. How can that not be disrupting the worshippers?! The men were forced to pray behind the women, do you not see the problem with this?! When I said “having had more information…“, I actually meant I had read your blog and I was pretty shocked at some of the things I had to read. The fact that the masjid authorities had to call the police suffices in explaining whether or not there was disruption in all honesty.
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 8:59 PM
Sidiq, try to get your facts straight. The salah was not delayed and no men prayed behind the women.
Sidiq
June 10, 2010 at 7:01 AM
There was a second Pray In protest at the Islamic Center of Washington in March, this time the imam declined to lead the asr salah… (From your own blog)
Based on this I can correctly assume that the salah was delayed and the imam was disrupted as were the worshippers. This is unacceptable behaviour and disrespect to both the imam and ma’mun.
There was a report quoted in your blog: “About ten women prayed outside the womenรขโฌโขs space behind the menรขโฌโขs congregation; men who came in late formed lines behind the protesting women“. If this is true, then women were praying in front of men. You have attempted to refute this account however: “…this eyewitness discounts the claim that any of the men that arrived late formed a line behind the women.” Anyhow, this entire issue is a red herring and the manner in which the women were protesting by disrespecting the imam and the ma’mun and disrupting the modus operandi of the masaajid with such force should be condemned. It seems as well that the women were acting very masculine if there was any loud confrontation (excuse me but I felt compelled to say this).
I do not agree with the aims of this group at all even if they managed to cause no disruption, and so what will be the situation when they are forcibly making their way into the men’s section of masaajid and demanding to get their way even if the imam disagrees?! I kindly ask you to re-think both the aims and the method of this group barakallah feek.
Ify Okoye
June 12, 2010 at 6:56 AM
At the second pray-in in DC, which I attended, yes, rather than start the salah, the imam waited until the police arrived to remove the women who prayed or intended to pray outside the penalty box in the largely empty masjid. And then he led the salah. Calling the police because women want to pray behind the men and encouraging the police to harass and break the salah of those already praying seems rather unacceptable.
At the first pray-in, which I did not attend, there was an eyewitness at the back of the masjid, who observed the prayer in full, the other comment I believe was from someone praying, thus the former seems more accurate than the latter account. The witness remembers some brothers came in late, first formed a line and then moved off to the side or in front of the women.
Whatever one thinks of the issue, calling the police and assaulting women is not an appropriate response. People criticize the media attention, yet nary a word is said about the police attention brought on by the masajid themselves.
Ali
June 8, 2010 at 9:02 AM
There is a hadith in Sahih Muslim that states
: รยนรโ รยนรโฆรยฑรยฉ รยจรโ รยช รยนรยจรยฏ รยงรโรยฑรยญรโฆรโ รยฃรโ รโกรยง รยณรโฆรยนรยช รยนรยงรยฆรยดรยฉ รยฒรหรยฌ รยงรโรโ รยจรโฐ รยตรโรโฐ รยงรโรโรโก รยนรโรล รโก รหรยณรโรโฆ รยชรโรหรโ รโรห รยฃรโ รยฑรยณรหรโ
รยงรโรโรโก รยตรโรโฐ รยงรโรโรโก รยนรโรล รโก รหรยณรโรโฆ รยฑรยฃรโฐ รโฆรยง รยฃรยญรยฏรยซ รยงรโรโ รยณรยงรยก รโรโฆรโ รยนรโกรโ รยงรโรโฆรยณรยฌรยฏ รฦรโฆรยง รโฆรโ รยนรยช รโ รยณรยงรยก รยจรโ รโฐ รยฅรยณรยฑรยงรยฆรล รโ รโรยงรโ รยรโรโรยช รโรยนรโฆรยฑรยฉ รยฃรโ รยณรยงรยก รยจรโ รโฐ รยฅรยณรยฑรยงรยฆรล รโ รโฆรโ รยนรโ รยงรโรโฆรยณรยฌรยฏ รโรยงรโรยช รโ รยนรโฆ (รยตรยญรล รยญ รโฆรยณรโรโฆ)
Amrah bint Abdur Rahman narrates that she heard รขโฌหAisha (Radhiyallahu Anhu) the wife of Nabi (Sallalahu Alaihi Wasallam) say, รขโฌลIf Rasulullah (Sallalahu Alaihi Wasallam) were to see the condition of the women (of today), he would have verily prevented them from coming to the masjid how The Israelites women were preventing from coming to their place of worship. I asked Amrah, “Were the Israilite women prevented form coming to the masjid?รขโฌย She replied, รขโฌลYesรขโฌย. (Sahih Muslim)
รล รลฝรยนรโรโ รยรล รโฆรยรโ รโ รยงรโรยฒรโรยรล รโ รลฝรยฉ รหรลฝรยงรโรยทรโรยรล รยจ รหรลฝรยญรยรยณรโรโ รยงรโรยซรโรยรล รลฝรยงรยจ . รหรลฝรยงรลฝรโรโรโรลฝรโก รยฃรลฝรยนรโรโรลฝรโฆ
Imam al-Nawawi states in his explanation to this hadith in Sharh Sahih Muslim:
676 – รโรลฝรหรโรโรโกรลฝรยง : ( รโรลฝรหรโ รยฃรลฝรโ รโรลฝ รยฑรลฝรยณรยรหรโ รยงรโรโรโรลฝรโก รยตรลฝรโรโรลฝรโฐ รยงรโรโรโรลฝรโก รยนรลฝรโรลฝรล รโรโกรย รหรลฝรยณรลฝรโรโรลฝรโฆรลฝ รยฑรลฝรยฃรลฝรโฐ รโฆรลฝรยง รยฃรลฝรยญรโรยฏรลฝรยซรลฝ รยงรโรโ รโรยรยณรลฝรยงรยก รโรลฝรโฆรลฝรโ รลฝรยนรลฝรโกรยรโ รโรลฝ รยงรโรโรโฆรลฝรยณรโรยฌรยรยฏ )
รล รลฝรยนรโรโ รยรล รโฆรยรโ รโ รยงรโรยฒรโรยรล รโ รลฝรยฉ รหรลฝรยงรโรยทรโรยรล รยจ รหรลฝรยญรยรยณรโรโ รยงรโรยซรโรยรล รลฝรยงรยจ . รหรลฝรยงรลฝรโรโรโรลฝรโก รยฃรลฝรยนรโรโรลฝรโฆ .
Aisha’s (ra) statement: if the Messenger of Allah (saw) saw the condition of the women of today, he would have prohibited them from the masjid” means, due to their jewelery, perfume, and beautiful clothing.
If the condition of the women at Aisha (ra) time was such that she saw them unfit to attend the masjid, imagine the condition of our Muslim sisters in the States today. Our feminist sisters who collaborate with the likes of Asra Nomani and make our masajid and religion in general a source of negative media attention should ponder upon that fact. Taking into consideration that it is difficult for Western Muslim women to be in an Islamic environment or to learn about the religion other than in the masajid, the heads of the masajid decided to include women’s sections instead of preventing them from the masajid, while making separate sections to quell the fitnah that would ensue otherwise.
Ali
June 8, 2010 at 12:33 PM
Sorry, I just realized a better translation of รยฒรล รโ รยฉ than jewelery would have been adornment, since it is more inclusive, and encompasses makeup, jewelery, etc.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 9:07 PM
This point was addressed in Dr. Mattson’s paper, I encourage you to read it.
ummfatima
June 8, 2010 at 9:26 AM
Assalamualykum warahemutullahee wabarakatahu my dear sister,
Jazakillahu khairaan for all your effots..I don`t know what you will say when you visit the masjids of India.Women can`t even go to masjids in our area ,forget about space.When I first prayed my salah in the masjid in jamah and my first tarweeh ,I was the happiest person .When I describe these events to my fellow sisters back at home ,they will be amazed.Alhamdulillah , Alhamdulillah.
salaam.
AsimG
June 8, 2010 at 2:46 PM
India has a lot of problems and the mistreatment of women here is just a norm.
The worst part is this comes from Hindu culture and somehow infiltrated Muslim Indian culture as well.
Pickup any Indian newspaper and you will see honor killings and animal marriages associated with only Hindus. Heck, they can’t even tell people the sex of their child when pregnant so they don’t abort the female ones.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 9:10 PM
Wa salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh ummfatima,
May Allah make it easy for our sisters here and all the world. I know the joy and sweetness of praying in congregation in the masjid, may we all be blessed to experience and savor it.
Faiza
June 9, 2010 at 1:57 AM
Oh sister, just don’t get too inspired…
Let’s just focus on getting access to the houses of Allah for now outside of Ramadan.
But Alhamdulillah, a lot of masajid (not just Ahl-e-Hadith and shafa’i even Hanafi ones) are opening their doors for women for Jum’ah and I think it has a lot to do with the education of the common Muslim man. I’m not saying this is the best and we be content with it but it sure is a step in the right direction.
Wassalamu’alaikum wa rahmatullah
Mariam E.
June 8, 2010 at 10:25 AM
Asalamu Alikum warahmatu Allahi wabarakatu Sr. Ify :)
I was reminded of a recurring situation in the Masjid al-Haraam in Makkah that is probably familiar to many who have visited it. There is a two rakรขโฌโขah sunnah prayer prescribed following the completion of tawaaf to be performed behind the maqaam of Ibrahim.
You will find there, people who are so keen on performing these two sunnah rakรขโฌโขaat, that their zeal has led them to try to pray them right behind it, so that there is almost no barrier between them and it. The maqaam is in the middle of the tawaaf area, which means that their action causes a lot of annoyance to those making tawaaf.
If they stopped to ponder over their action, they would realize that had they complied and prayed a few meters back in the designated prayer spots (which remain classified as being behind the maqaam), then they would have still caught the reward of the sunnah.
But their stubbornness to pray very close means:
a)They are putting themselves in danger รขโฌโ are at risk of having the people making tawaaf fall over them.
b)They are endangering those making tawaaf by being and obstacles in their way, hence tripping them.
c)Preferring a sunnah action over an obligatory one. This is because tawaaf is a condition of hajj or รขโฌหumrah without which they are invalid. But the sunnah rakรขโฌโขahs can be left out and it will not harm the validity of the hajj or รขโฌหumrah. More so, they can still perform the sunnah (of the two rakรขโฌโขaat) in an easier manner anyhow.
d)Disrupting the flow of tawaaf. Disturbing those making tawaaf from their dhikr and รขโฌหibadah.
e)Causing trouble to the authorities, who constantly try to guide them to the designated places away from the crowds.
I am sure you would agree with me, that had they been really keen on following the sunnah, they would also look at the general welfare of all the Muslims.
Now looking at the case of Pray In:
a)Extra zeal to achieve a desired goal may lead to extremism. Extremism on both ends has resulted in fitna for the Muslims as history continues to prove until this day.
b)Due to opposition of the leadership of the masjid when it happened, there was a risk of putting yourself in danger by being verbally or physically harmed by authorities or police.
c)Disrupting the unity of the Muslims for many many years on the establishment of separate prayer places (symbolized in the flow of tawaf in one direction) and divert their attention from more pressing issues.
d)If the leadership of the masjid is against this, then they have the right of obedience (as leaders are to be obeyed in everything other than haraam). Adhering to their obedience and to the jamaรขโฌโขah of the Muslims is better than pulling away, particularly if there are alternatives to the desired goal. (symbolized in the refusal of the people to go a few meters back in the designated areas that would cause safety for all).
May Allah guide us all to what is pleasing to Him.
elham
June 8, 2010 at 5:24 PM
I fully agree with the last point (d)!. I can’t believe someone could openly disagree with the Imam of the masjid, when Allah (swt) commanded us to ”obey the ones who have been given authority” of course in what is halal and there is no haraam being asked by the Imams here.
UmmMaryam
June 8, 2010 at 6:52 PM
salamu ‘alaikum,
sister Mariam, beautiful, really beautiful mashallah…this is the beauty of correcting people. the way of our Prophet sall Allahu ‘alayhi wa sallam and the way of Al_hasan and his brother in teaching the old man how to fix his wudu….ie in the most dignified and respectable way possible that opens the heart and makes one love what you have presented
I love your posts/articles on MuslimMatters, esp the recent one about the Romanian brother…it makes me cry every time I read it and the first day I read it like 3 times and I cried each time…and wa lillahil hamd…the praise is due to Allah who makes hearts like those of that brother… (ie no, I am not trying to overpraise you)
I also love sister Sadaf farooqi’s posts on surah yusuf, on housewives burdens,etc. such beauty in the approach…
i know this thread is on a way different topic, but since it is making me a bit sad I thought I should write about what makes me happy.
wa jazakum Allahu khairan.
May Allah guide us to His Obedience and to keep the Muslims united and with humble hearts. ameen
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 9:19 PM
Wa salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh Mariam,
We do not step out of our comfort zone and advocate for issues simply for the sake of argumentation but rather because they are most important. I cannot tell you here but maybe when we meet later on this year, insha’Allah of the enormous spiritual and psychological harm that I’ve found and experienced firsthand in our communities, quite a bit of which revolves around these issues. This harm is far greater than any insults or intimidation or threats of or actual physical violence.
I was not among those who declined to move further back actually quite a bit more than a few meters but that’s another story, ask me at Ilm Summit, insha’Allah. The issue of moving back was not at all about safety.
UmmZayn
June 8, 2010 at 10:30 AM
I totally agree that mosques must take care to provide a clean, comfortable, dignified space for sisters. However, I dont understand why the sisters in the group feel the need to pray so close to the brothers. Leaving such a small gap between the lines doesnt make sense, because all too often some men will come late and then what are they supposed to do except pray behind the sisters?? The pictures Ive seen of the pray-in have the sisters praying with a gap of only one of two behind the brothers, with the children praying next to the women. To be truly closer to the sunnah, doesnt it make sense to have the children in the row as a buffer between the men and women and leave sufficient space to allow for late prayers, and still maintain a decent spacing between men and women. There is all this talk of what is sunnah and the Prophet’s mosque –yet I truly cannot imagine the companions [male and female] praying in such close proximity
Mohammad Sabah
June 8, 2010 at 2:15 PM
Asalaam alaykum. Excellent points raised here. Furthermore, isn’t there a hadith where the Prophet (pbuh) said that the best rows for men are the front, and for the women are the last rows in the mosque? Obviously there is wisdom behind every directive of Islam – leaving large gap between the end of men’s rows and beginning of women’s rows allows the men who come in late to join in. Furthermore, you want you khushu to be maximum in prayer which is why you would remove all possible disractions and you tune you heart to Allah swt. e.g. turning off cell phones. To that end too, it makes complete sense to leave a big gap between men and women and make sure that they are not too close.
wasalam.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 9:29 PM
If you look closely at the picture here there are children praying next to the men and others kids relaxing off to the side during the salah. How much of gap is always a judgment call, when the salah began there were about 2 rows of brothers and by the time it finished a third row still had ample space in it. At just about every masjid I’ve been to, children are mixed into the rows next to their parents, I think I have yet to experience a jama’ah where children were in the middle unless they were running about and playing.
Mombeam
June 8, 2010 at 11:03 AM
Again, I feel the need to point out the faulty logic being used regarding the argument that the barrier must be in place in the masjid because the women coming there are, according to some, “poorly dressed”. Mind you, “poorly dressed” has been defined here to be a sister who may not be as observant, who comes to the masjid ready to pray in pants, a long-sleeved shirt, and some kind of head scarf.
First of all, what happened to the whole reason women pray BEHIND the men in the first place? Brothers, when you walk into the masjid, go to the front and sit down for the khutbah or line up for the salaah, you mean to tell me you all are making the effort to TURN AROUND and LOOK BEHIND YOU to see what the women are wearing? Not only that, when we are all sitting (or standing) in rows it’s awfully hard to see individual people, and particularly when sitting, what exactly they are wearing.
Secondly, whether there is a barrier or not you are going to see these women in the parking lot where it’s a LOT easier to see them. Would you then argue that the women need to be barred from the masjid completely? And would this have any benefit for their deen and that of the children and families who are being raised by those women? I see a lot of commentary on the comment that Aishah RaDia l-laahu `anhaa made regarding what happened with women AFTER the death of the Prophet Salla l-laahu `alahyhi wa sallam. Do I really need to point out that this is simply her kind of exasperated, off-the-cuff *commentary* and that she is NOT a Prophet whose words must be taken as law?
Thirdly, as I mentioned above and which was interestingly avoided, if you men can live in the West and walk down the street and go to the store and go to work with non-Muslim women who wear FAR LESS than the pants/long-sleeved shirt/headscarf bit that women coming to the masjid wear, then why is it not equally if not more incumbent upon YOU to remove yourselves from this whole environment? You can argue to me that, well, walking down the street or going to work or buying food is a “necessity”… then you must also recognize that the need for women to be fully participating members of the Islamic community (regardless of what they wear at the moment) is also a necessity and in fact it is more incumbent upon Muslim communities to flex a little to make that happen. You can go learn a trade where you work from home and live out in a rural area where you rarely ever see people other than cowboys so you limit your exposure to half-naked women in the workplace, shop and street… but when it comes to women being served by an Islamic community environment, there is noplace else to go.
So I really think this argument that women dress poorly, therefore we need to have a wall between the men and women in the masjid so the men don’t see them is simply a false argument. It seems like you guys are grasping at straws here, trying to justify in any way the need to keep women out of sight, out of mind. As I said above, you can’t tell me you haven’t already developed strategies for dealing with the outright nakedness that is in your face everywhere on the street and when interacting with people, so I can’t believe for one second that you are going to have a fitnah-fest if you are in the masjid and there are some women with pants on sitting somewhere in the back rows. For God’s sake, if my husband saw you all turning around and looking at the women he’d be on your case. Maybe instead of opposing the barrier so much you should be the first to stand up and say that if you do see a man with so little adab that you notice him ogling the women’s section you will stare him down, tap him on the shoulder… heck, even punch him or throw him out of the place. Demand a little more from your own side and see what happens.
Finally, to sister Ify, regarding being outsiders coming to the community: My opinion is that this is something that has to be supported and participated in by a large group of women who are all from within the community, not just one or two people. I think it also may need to have those people supported by their husbands in the other side of the building.
Siraaj
June 8, 2010 at 2:01 PM
Peripheral vision, common masjid areas, and parking lots – you do that math. Speaking of which…
Exactly – which is why they need to be dressed appropriately. If they’re forbidden from the masjid for being improperly dressed, they’re not likely to hang out at the parking lot.
When I go to work or grocery shopping, there are dress etiquettes and protocols I have to observe as a man before I can partake of those necessities. No shirt, no shoes, no service – I don’t see what this has to be different for sisters in the masjid.
Siraaj
Mombeam
June 8, 2010 at 9:37 PM
Wow, you have confirmed what many of us suspect– that your real agenda is to exclude women from the masjid completely based on very harsh conditions. Out of sight, out of mind.
You of course completely ignored the issue of how the deen of women and families will suffer when such women are banned from the masjid.
You also fail to address how you will actually really SEE the women in any meaningful way when they are in the back and sitting close together in the jamaa`ah. Seriously, I’m starting to think that the real issue here IS that you men are so lulled into a sense of your own power and importance that you really DON’T want to control yourselves and if you do control yourself, then you don’t have the balls to step up and protect the honor of your sisters by calling out and shaming brothers who don’t control themselves. If the brothers are supposed to be imaams and heads of state, how you also claim to be so infantile and spineless? No wonder the Muslim world is in the state it’s in today!
You also completely ignored the fact that you go out into the world where non-Muslim women are right in front of your face (not behind you, not in your *peripheral vision*) in shorts, tank tops, clevage and thighs showing, etc. So how this is an acceptable situation for you to place yourself in, but it is not acceptable for you to *risk* the *possibility* of a *glance* at a *Muslim woman completely covered if not perfectly* in your *peripheral vision*.
Would you also be excluding poorly dressed men in your worldview? The number of men who come into the masjid beardless and with their shirts tucked in and with tight pants and wering gold is disgusting to me as well. Wouldn’t all that make an interesting sign on the front door of the mosque?
Siraaj
June 9, 2010 at 12:08 AM
Actually, the agenda is to simply make it easier to worship Allah in the masjid, and to facilitate all sisters, even the less practicing, and not push them away, hence the walls, one way mirrors, and balconies. What I’m saying is, if you want to take away the wall, then you need another way to facilitate both sides of the equation – as I mentioned earlier to Ify, even if all men lowered their gaze, or we had the practicing men “man up” on the staring brothers, where are the sisters in upholding their end of it?
See, the whole discussion smacks of hypocrisy and double standards – when we’re talking about improperly dressed sisters, it’s all about being nice and not hurting their feelings for the sake of daw’ah, but when a brother (incorrectly) looks back, we should “call out and shame” them? What happened to that gentle daw’ah you were talking about earlier? Why not “name and shame” the sisters too?
Men are created a certain way, as are women, and the man is NOT like the woman. Your ‘awrah is more than ours for a reason, and masjid visitation doesn’t happen in a vacuum, we don’t teleport in and out of prayer places. Men don’t simply turn around and stare – it’s easy enough to catch glances this way and that without directly staring (so “catching” people in the act is not very feasible anyway).
Finally, you’ve asked a number of times how men deal with nonMuslim women in public and can’t deal with Muslim women in the masjid. Sister, if every day I walked out in public to feed my family I was beaten, kicked, and bloodied to get to my job or get my groceries, I’d still have to do it. The best I can do is physically defend myself, but I’m not going to win every battle.
And if when visiting the masjid, the same treatment at a lesser degree could also happen, but I could take measures to prevent it from happening, you wouldn’t say, “Well, you’re already getting your rear-end handed to you out there, why not take it here since it’s not as bad.” You always seek to reduce personal damage to oneself as much as possible where possible. In the masjid, it’s possible.
Siraaj
PS: Perhaps the funniest inconsistency of all – the idea that men, who struggling to look away from women, want to hide them out of sight, out of mind!
Mombeam
June 9, 2010 at 11:30 AM
So what you’re saying is that because you are faced with so many (truly) naked women in the outer world, when you come to the masjid, you want it to be a woman-free zone for you. Of course the only reason you can even make that statement is because men are in control of the masjid. Yes you can “reduce your personal damage” in the masjid… yes, you can do anything you want in the masjid because the unfortunate state of affairs is that it’s YOURS. And the problem with that is the masjid is supposed to be for ALL, not just for men.
When women are excluded from the masjid, there is no other place for them to practice and learn their deen. Severing attachments to the deen when there is a whole world out there waiting to take people away from it is unwise. It is like parents who believe they will properly raise their children by beating them. Severing attachments between parent and child will not make a child stick with their parents and follow their values because society is all about “your friends are the most important” and “your parents don’t know anything, leave them and be independent”… So by breaking the attachments on your side, you’re basically just throwing them to the people who want to take them away.
Not only that, you need to study usool al-fiqh a bit and understand how priorities are determined in shari`ah. You are saying that the exclusion/ marginalization/ neglect of women in the Muslim community is an acceptable consequence to have to deal with because you don’t want to have women around in order to “reduce your personal damage”. I don’t believe it is an acceptable consequence to have to deal with, nor do I believe it would stand up to the test of priorities in the shari`ah. Again, you are not facing women in the masjid, and they are not showing their legs, bellies, clevage, etc., we are dealing only with the *chance* of seeing… nothing much at all because you’re not really going to SEE anything anyway. In addition to the fact that you’re talking about matters on which there are differences of opinion, esp. regarding pants for example. (And by the way I DO NOT agree with women wearing pants or anything less than a techical jilbaab, just so you know where I’m coming from…but there are others who are practicing Muslims who hold other viewpoints)
So I maintain that if the remote possibility of seeing the covered legs of an otherwise completely covered woman is so frightening to you, then living in a world where you can expect at every moment to have a less-dressed woman in front of you is not right for you, and you need to go live in Arabia or someplace where you can take yourself away from these bigger fitan.
And yes, men who ogle women should be dealt with harshly. “Men and women are different” , remember? And good men should have the ghayuurah and the muruu’ah to have a zero-tolerance policy on any attempts to look at their wives/daughters/sisters. “Men are the protectors of women” remember? Funny, my husband is able to stare people down because he’s vigilant. It’s usually apparent when a guy is not where he should be.
And funny how you scoff at the idea of gentleness on women yet if anyone were to suggest that a woman should be head of state people like you would suddenly bring up the emotional frailty of women as an Islamic reason why they shouldn’t be.
This whole thing makes me so sick. It’s no wonder the Muslim world is in the state it’s in now.
Siraaj
June 9, 2010 at 12:52 PM
LOL, I like your responses, they’re entertaining.
About your questions:
No, I simply want to minimize the amount of exposure my eyes have to dodge improperly dressed sisters. If sisters are all dressed according to the rules the majority of scholars have agreed on, I’d be happy to have them praying right behind us. I was actually just telling my wife the other day it’d be good to have the sisters pray downstairs in the back during normal prayers since we only fill about 3 rows during isha and maghrib (it’s a large prayer hall, holds about 1000 people).
Looks like you went on for a bit about that topic based on that grossly false premise (that I wanted to prevent sisters from the masjid), so maybe you can copy/paste it for another discussion.
Let’s move on to your next point…
No, I scoff at your application of it. As with most “We’re-the-religion-of-feminism” speakers, the pendulum is swinging too far in the other direction, and it is extreme. Women and men have to work together to solve the problem, it’s not one gender or the other. Men have to look away, and I would expect that as the Prophet dealt with the bedouin urinating in the masjid or the man who asked permission to commit zina, hikmah would be used in addressing the issue (rofl@death stare, so much for husn adh-dhann, what if the guy was looking for his sister, mother, wife, or daughter?)
And women have to acknowledge that they are problem for men. The Prophet has said that he has left behind no greater trial for men than women, so yes, the trouble women cause men is more when they are inappropriately dressed than vice versa, it’s why you have to cover more, and it’s why if you cannot acknowledge the problem, realize someone will erect a one way mirror, a balcony, or wall TO PROTECT YOU as well as their own wives, daughters, mothers and so on from other men.
As I said before, it’s a stupid contradiction to acknowledge on the one hand that men want to see and enjoy the sight of women and on the other hand want to hide them “to oppress them”.
Btw, this issue of a “wall” existed in the time of the Prophet himself, though it was not a wall of concrete, it was a wall of men so large to the point that the women could no longer benefit from the Prophet’s speech, so what did those excellently practicing and dressed women do? take a lesson from the best of women – they proactively approached the Prophet and asked for their own day to learn and benefit from him, minus the men.
If women want to participate, and there are walls, barriers, and Allah knows what else, and these are hurting participation, then work with the community, the imam, or whoever and find your way back in to benefit yourself. Set up programs and let those less practicing sisters know about it – the onus is on you to take care of yourself and be responsible for yourself. I don’t buy this nonsense which I’ve heard umpteen times that if sisters are in the back, they’re cut off from the community. On the contrary, learn from our previous generations of women, take initiative, and set up your own programs for learning and socializing, stop being dependent on the men – if there’s anything you should take from feminism, THAT should be it. Talk to your imam, take initiative, and if he doesn’t want to help out, fundraise and make a program where you bring one in regularly for your own and the community of women’s benefit.
Or better still, have your husband give the imam and the masjid board the death stare.
Siraaj
Amad
June 8, 2010 at 12:07 PM
Sr. Ify, I hope these comments provided you some food for thought. Knowing you, mashallah you always keep an open mind and that reflects in your acceptance into the company of ardent progressives. And I say this with all sincerity and positivity. It is not easy to work or befriend people whose opinions in most matters of Islam are so different from your own. I know I struggle with it. I used to be so much worse before I started blogging, but this medium allowed me to open up my mind and heart, to the point that even MR is on our team now :)
I would like to add that shaytan has many different ways of diverting a person’s attention from real issues to the fake ones. So, it is possible that you or others from the pray-in group may be thinking, “MM… what do you expect… conservative audience… [and Asra:] radicals, extremists… so we can discount their opinions”. And while there is some truth in that a lot of our audience is conservative, orthodox, there is a significant minority that isn’t. And even that minority isn’t on board. MORE IMPORTANTLY, the people who you are dealing with in the masajid, the community leaders, the musalleen are in fact almost always the mainstream, orthodox type. So, this is in fact the main audience that you have deal with. Unfortunately, a lot of the ultra progressives only show up when there is some new “mission” or fight to take up, or perhaps an election :)
May Allah grant us the tawfeeq to do what pleases Him (in addition to good intentions)… all of us.
africana
June 8, 2010 at 2:01 PM
assalamu alaikum,
i don’t know whether you know, but in isreal there’s a group called women of the wall who enage in civil disobedience at places where women are excluded from prayer. they come in for a lot of criticism from haredi jews who are shown in the below video throwing chairs at them.
i really don’t think muslims should be copying the ways of the disbelievers just in order to make a point about women’s prayer spaces.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrvxaT6QIw0
FormerSufi
June 8, 2010 at 3:49 PM
Sister Ify has another “take” on the issue — more “blunt” than the MM material here … waaaay too negative for me!
http://muslimapple.com/2010/06/06/muslim-link-pray-in-bias-unfair-and-unbalanced/
africana
June 8, 2010 at 4:44 PM
in my previous comment i was criticising the sisters who are into civil disobedience, not the men
PakistaniMD
June 8, 2010 at 5:53 PM
Salaam,
I applaud the sister for doing what she thinks is right (and I mostly agree with her on this issue). However, I also think some of the suggestions that Amad and Siraaj have provided should be taken into account, esp. the negative figures in your movement (Asra Nomani, unidentified “gay” male).
Also, you should start small, like asking majids’ to eliminate the more simple physical barriers during jumma prayers, such as curtains.
At the majid where I go to in Rockville, MD, most sisters pray in an adjoining building. There only tangible connection to the main prayer is through a speaker system and a TV (to see the imam). And of course, during jumma prayers, the original sister area (behind the brothers area) is taken over by the brothers for overflow #1. Thus, my point being, is to start with jumma prayers and effectively communicate with the community’s leaders.
Another aside: In most MSAs’, Jummas are held in the manner that both Ify O. and Amad (or Siraaj) have talked about: women pray behind the men, w/ a clear view of the Khateeb/imam. I know that is how it is @ the local University MSA.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 9:35 PM
Salaam alaykum, thanks for the support.
That kicking sisters out of the masjid or their own supposedly designated area is rather irksome, I started small just trying to get the chains of the exit doors and so on… I’m always open to suggestions.
Concerned Brother
June 8, 2010 at 8:25 PM
asalaamu’alaikum,
There is plenty of argumentation going on here, and very little I imagine that is actually, tangibly beneficial to the Ummah at large. ‘Pray In’ is creating a source of fitnah that our communities really don’t need right now. If the group truly cares about the state of the Ummah, and not a self-glorified pursuit of women’s rights, then put down the banners calling for change and go educate yourselves. Find reliable scholars, learn more about the deen, and know what you are talking about before you begin to think you understand everything you already know. Making statements such as “I think that is what the Prophet (saw) intended…” that are not rooted in some analysis of hadith or Quran, is a baseless, self-serving opinion that does not deserve to be mentioned.
Don’t speak of what you “feel”…speak of facts from the history of the Ummah, from the examples of the Prophet (saw) and the Sahabah (rah), and state what scholars have said on the matter, not your opinions that you elevate to the status of facts. And then, don’t do a disservice to the rest of the readers here by only mentioning half of applicable hadith.
I hope all of the good intentions all across this article and its comments find their way back to the Straight Path, inshaAllah.
ma’asalaam
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 9:42 PM
We have facts and feelings on our side, it’s only a matter of time, the example from the time of the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam and his earliest companions are recorded in the books and while people may equivocate over details or methodologies, the majority claim to support the macro goals.
Farhan
June 9, 2010 at 12:45 AM
Even if you don’t agree, I suggest you change your language. Realize that we’re all sincere here and have valid points…
Mohammad Sabah
June 8, 2010 at 8:42 PM
Assalam alaykum.
Subhan Allah – after reading the link posted by a brother in one comment: http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-05-17/showdown-at-the-mosque/ – all I can say to Pray In is repeat the words of the Imam Elsayed: don’t create more fitnah. This is a shocking article (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-05-17/showdown-at-the-mosque/) and shows the lack of knowledge, manners and wisdom of the author (in this case, Asra). The article speaks disparagingly of Islam and its followers and uses negative connotations throughout about Islam – perfect for the likes of Robert Spencer. On top of it, there are lawsuits. Subhan Allah. Many are the handiworks of satan and I can see some of it in the approach of Pray in – you are promoting a good cause but with the wrong attitude.
I was also shocked to see the article mentioning the hadith in Sahih Muslim as inauthentic: It is reported by Abu Hurairah that the Prophet (Pbuh) said: รขโฌลThe best rows for men are the first rows, and the worst ones are the last. The best rows for women are the last ones, and the worst ones for them are the first.รขโฌย [Sahih Muslim Vol.1 Chapter 175 Hadith No.881]
May Allah guide us all.
wasalam
Dawud Israel
June 8, 2010 at 8:47 PM
I don’t really know the climate so I will not really say much, but pieces like this are crucial. I applaud the courage in writing this.
I can’t help but think the future of Islam in North America is that of feminized religion–that is, the bulk of American Muslims will be devout sisters. We need to prepare for an Islam where a massive section of the community are going to be females, with men being the minority. Maybe I am off the mark with that prediction, but I see signs of it…
Jazaka Allahu khayran.
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 9:45 PM
A “feminized religion,” very interesting terminology. I always have hope looking forward to a more indigenous expression of Islam in these lands.
tariqislam
June 10, 2010 at 4:33 PM
You’ll have to excuse the bluntness of this response, however “feminized religion” doesn’t even make sense when it comes to Islam. Islam in and of itself is feminist, it’s the people and leadership whose understanding that needs to be feminized.
In all my criticism of the Pray In movement, I have to say that mashallah at the end of the day, at least you all are doing something. My hope Sr Ify is that you take these comments (the good constructive ones anyway), and perhaps apply them in your future endeavors regarding your methodology in protesting inshaAllah. After all, you sort of asked for this when you posted, which I respect.
I’d also like to thank you for taking the time and responding to just about all of the comments on here. May Allah reward you for every effort in helping all of us understand.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
June 10, 2010 at 7:15 PM
“Feminist” and “Feminized” are different concepts. Although of course “feminist” carries different connotations to different people it’s basic meaning is believing that men and women are equal and should be treated equally. Either a man or woman can be feminist. Feminized implies something that has a “feminine” character or “feminine” characteristics.
Ify Okoye
June 12, 2010 at 7:40 AM
Br. Tariq: Jazak’Allah khayr for taking the time to read and respond, familiarize yourself, and remain civil. In controversial and contentious issues, if more of us could do that, we’d be much better off as a community.
Hebah Ahmed
June 8, 2010 at 9:28 PM
Asalam Alikum we rahmat Allah we baraktu Sr. Ify,
As a new fellow writer to MM, I wanted to thank you for your courage in writing about something you personally are working towards and have passion for. I have learned from personal experience that it takes a lot of guts to put yourself out there, especially with such a controversial topic, and hold your breathe as you wait for the next intellectual beating. You are a strong person.
I read Dr. Mattson’s article as recommended and I would like to take her advice and really support you, even if I do not totally agree with every aspect.
Each of us is a product of our experiences. Yes, we are all at different points in our journey and change our methods and thoughts as we see the outcomes of our efforts. I have softened and changed in many ways throughout my journey and have been humbled to the point of learning to withhold judgement. I await the results of this group and pray it does not turn sinister as many on this forum predict Insha Allah. I also pray that by working with all Muslims, even those who have done damage to Islam, we will diffuse their attacks and show them a better way.
As a sister who wears Niqab, I see a separate women’s areas as a place I can pray without my niqab (as required by Islam), be able to sit in a comfortable position while listening to the khutbah, and a place to breastfeed. On the other hand, during Taraweh prayers it is so much more peaceful to pray behind the men when the kids and women are talking so loudly in the women’s section that their is no point in even trying there. There are great points for both ways and I think both should be available.
From my experiences, I have found that working from the bottom up is a much more effective way to bring about change and that leadership is almost always a mirror of the majority of its followers.
We (my sister and I) have faced many of the obstacles you have addressed in this article and got so tired of the conflict and backbiting that we started our own women’s group externally and provided the services that the masjid refused to do. After 4 years and winning the respect and support of a large group in the community (many of whom were our biggest critics) we are now being begged by the masjid board to do everything under them and with whatever resources we want. I do believe our success depends on the fact that we are arabic speaking and our husbands are seen as “prominent” in the community so I know that prejudices effect this as well. There is no “one solution fits all”.
Just adding to the thoughts…
I love you for the sake of Allah and I feel you! :)
Love,
Hebah
Ify Okoye
June 8, 2010 at 9:54 PM
Wa salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh Hebah,
Lovely, thank you for sharing. May the one for whose sake you love me, also love you. Yes, I her you and you know what they say, some of my best friends are niqaabis… :) But seriously, I’m all for the most choice possible and in a couple of masajid in my area they have situations I could support. Women who want their privacy away from men have it and women that would like have an unobstructed visual to the imam within the same room have it. I’m all for working within a community yet I believe there are benefits in using a multiplicity of avenues including grassroots as well as top-down. Look forward to reading more from you and hope you are settling in here at MM.
Abรยป Mรยปsรยข Al-รกยธยคabashรยฎ
June 8, 2010 at 10:04 PM
Jamaal Zarabozo, in his series on modernists I believe, said that this incident is not authentically reported.
Olivia
June 8, 2010 at 10:44 PM
I wonder what the fiqhi aspect of actually “banning” someone from the masjid is for dressing inappropriately, whether male or female?
Perhaps the masjid should insure that there is hijab and skirts available to the sisters. If that is the case then what excuse could there be for not allowing sisters into any section of the masjid?
Siraaj should organize a charity to have people donate money and then he can buy thousands of them and distribute them to masjids all across the U.S. Brother Siraaj I can help you pick out the patterns to insure you don’t buy anything auntie-tacky like that floral sofa you like at your Mom’s house.
Heather
June 9, 2010 at 12:29 AM
Asalamu alaikum everyone,
Iรขโฌโขm worried about the idea of banning sisters from the mosque who are inappropriately dressed. More often than not, the sisters in question are likely to be new Muslims, sisters from non-practising families, or even curious non-Muslims. It may have already cost these sisters a lot of will power just to go to the mosque, so the consequences of then telling them that their choice of dress is a fitna, could be catastrophic to their perhaps already fragile hold on the deen.
I remember reading a story that I think was about the late Sheikh Mohmmed al Ghazali, may Allah rest his soul. A young woman came to his office for advice and she was dressed inappropriately. The Sheikh however didnรขโฌโขt say anything to the woman about her choice of clothes. The next time she visited his office, she was dressed much more appropriately รขโฌโ without having been told to.
Personally I prefer mosques with completely separate sistersรขโฌโข areas. It would be handy though, if the smaller mosques could accommodate sisters, perhaps outside of the congregational prayer times, in order to provide sisters with a safe place to pray when out and about.
Farhan
June 9, 2010 at 12:39 AM
Yah, that goes without being said that no one should prevent anyone from coming to the masjid
Amad
June 9, 2010 at 1:52 AM
No one can forbid women coming from the Masjid, when the Prophet (S) clearly allowed it.
And in fact, the women who are not properly dressed, are the most important ones to be welcomed into the Masjid, so that they may feel as being part of the community and eventually hopefully dress properly inshallah.
Reminds me of Sh. Areefi’s experience with the women who wasn’t properly dressed in the plane. See the video for those who missed it.
http://muslimmatters.org/2010/05/20/dawah-on-the-go-sh-mohammad-al-areefi/
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 12:09 PM
Actually, they can and they do using the police and using civil laws and at least two I’ve been to have pre-printed banning notices with a fill-in-the-name blank line.
Muhammad
June 9, 2010 at 3:25 PM
Makes you wonder what you people have been up to to get banned at two different masajid….
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 5:00 PM
I actually have not officially been banned at any masjid, thanks Muhammad, makes me wonder what you’ve been up to…
MW_M
June 9, 2010 at 6:18 AM
In our masjid (I keep saying that frequently, huh?) we have spare abayas (and thawbs on the guy’s side) hanging for people who don’t come dressed appropriately. They can put them on while in the masjid and hang them up while leaving. Solves the problem: no immodesty for people to worry about and no one kicking people out of the masjid. This especially useful during open houses in the summer when non-muslims come dressed for the weather, we instituted this after an incident where some people (sisters actually) told a non-muslim to get out of the masjid for dressing inappropriately. We’ve never had the problem again.
Sayf
June 9, 2010 at 1:16 AM
This is from the facebook group:
I can’t begin to express how huge, huge of a mistake this was on the part of the Pray-In group. You got what you wanted and you blew it with intellectual arrogance. You realize brothers don’t even engage in this type of arrogant challenging of Scholars of the Deen during halaqas, what did you think was going to be the result of this in a tense atmosphere? The rest of the sisters should have been quick to quiet this one up who not only severely tarnished your reputation, but blew a huge step-forward.
Don’t expect to get people’s sympathy acting like this. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftp2qRg2xz4
Amad
June 9, 2010 at 1:54 AM
Yeah, this was a blown opportunity. You can’t change things overnight (even if for the sake of argument lets assume you were right about being closer to the men’s rows). Take the small victories, build bridges and good-will, then move to the next step.
Abd- Allah
June 9, 2010 at 6:43 AM
May I ask who issued this fatwa and what evidence from “strong hadith sources and Qurรขโฌโขan” support this view ?
Muhammad
June 9, 2010 at 3:56 PM
Who cares? It supports their argument, so it must be strong!
Ify Okoye
June 12, 2010 at 6:44 AM
The Muslim Link included a fatwa from Dr. Muzzamil H. Siddiqui mentioning this opinion, it is also available on Islam-Online.
Sayf
June 12, 2010 at 11:50 AM
As far as I’ve seen this looks like misquotation to me, can you please explain how this supports the defiance of the shaykh’s reasonable request:
Read more: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544856#ixzz0qeqz8kNT
Could the women not see the people in front of them in the furthest rows?
Also, the claim was that there was strong evidence from the Qur’an and Sunnah in this fatwa, can you help me find this daleel?
Hassan
June 9, 2010 at 11:05 AM
The masjid we (me and my family) pray in (Clear Lake Islamic Center), I have not heard any women complain about any issues. So perhaps you may want to come and see process here. Before the masjid was made, it used to be a musalla, which was equally penalty box for men and women. And astonishingly my wife still remembers musalla in good terms, and says she liked that better.
In any case we never complained about any masjid all around houston, regardless of its facilities for men and women, perhaps our focus is different (worshiping Allah in the best manner, and being patient in shortcomings of the facility)
Have you done some kind of assessment while doing this pray-in thing for following:
1. The benefit in terms of dunya and akhirah on your personal level
2. The benefit in terms of dunya and akhirah on community level
3. And if there are benefits (from first 2 points), then do you think in process of achieving those you are not going to cause fitnah that would harm the community?
From all what I have read, regardless of how noble (or non-noble) the cause is, it seems (seems) that it causing fitnah in community. And that is somewhat surprising to be supported by muslimmatters and like-minded people. (I am referring to fact that even aqeedah differences would be tolerated for unity of community)
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 12:15 PM
Salaam alaykum Hassan,
My only experience at a masjid in Texas thus far was at Hakeem Olajuwon’s which despite being beautifully appointed, the women’s section left something to be desired. And after the salah, in order to be more connected and able to participate fully, the sisters were invited to sit in the main hall. I was invited to speak at another masjid in Houston this July at a women’s conference but had to decline the invitation.
I think Dr. Mattson answered the question of fitna very well in her lecture, which I encourage you to read. There are benefits and harms in these issues at a personal and community level, but in the end, I believe on the Day of Judgment as well as historically, the benefits will outweigh the harms, otherwise I wouldn’t be involved.
Muhammad
June 9, 2010 at 3:57 PM
Maybe the people at Pray-In should actually go to different masajid across the US to, you know, see if women are being accomodated? Then you guys can get together and realize that there are dozens of better solutions than what you’re proposing.
Just an idea…
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 4:26 PM
Many of us have lived in and visited communities around the country and world.
Muhammad
June 9, 2010 at 7:24 PM
So then you do know that many masjids have worked out solutions that satisfy both brothers and sisters. Why don’t you try to emulate those? Sorry, but this whole movements smacks of superficial motives and little care for what benefits the ummah–brothers and sisters. You’re trying to pray behind men in the same room with little care for any logistics, let alone modesty, when you could focus your effort on expanding prayer areas for sisters, getting them accommodations on par with the brothers’ sides (and no doubt, this is something which needs to occur and something which the vast majority of American Muslims will support wholeheartedly) etc, etc, etc!
Ify Okoye
June 12, 2010 at 6:46 AM
There are no real logistical or modesy issues when the masjid is nearly empty as has always been the case with these pray-ins. And we are focusing on expanding the prayer space for sisters, that’s the whole point.
Abdus Salam
June 9, 2010 at 1:22 PM
I can’t say I agree with everything that’s written in the article (and this is despite feeling sympathetic to the general import of it), but I think you’ve got to commend Sr. Ify Okoye for her patience in dealing with people here. Masha Allah.
amad
June 9, 2010 at 2:50 PM
Agree.
I know how it feels when you have an unpopular opinion, and I have lashed out before (what i regret).
So gotta give Ify that!
abu Abdullah
June 9, 2010 at 6:30 PM
Very promising patience shown by author, mash Allah. people have said things that I might not even been able to think, showing the variety and depth of intellectuals visit this site and alhamdulillah we get to learn. At least many people agreed to disagree, in respectful way.
@author, The solution seems, Find out what you are doing, for what sake you are doing making your own muhasaba ( self check ) , and worry about only those action items that are not going to benefit you on the day of judgment. Not causing fitnah is another easy way out.
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 4:32 PM
Jazakum’Allah khayran.
Abd- Allah
June 9, 2010 at 1:45 PM
Sister Ify, thanks for adding the disclaimer but can you please remove it altogether as it would be better. That narration is very weak and a munkar narration, and it also does contradict the other authentic narrations in which Umar may Allah be pleased with him did tell the people not to pay excessive dowries, but that latter part of the narration which mentions that the woman objected to him doing that is the munkar part and is not authentic. So this narration does contradict the many other authentic narrations about this incident, so this story is not true at all, and if you can please remove it from the post altogether I would appreciate it a lot. JazakumAllah khayr!
Ify Okoye
June 9, 2010 at 4:36 PM
Can you provide me with an authentic narration of the incident? I’ll consider it, for sure. Removing the narration would thus require a bit more editing and re-working of the post because it was again referenced later on in response to the “build your own masjid” argument.
Abd- Allah
June 9, 2010 at 5:08 PM
Here are two of the authentic narrations:
This incident has been reported by so many authentic chains that al-Hakim rahimahullah said that it is mutawaatir, and all the narrations mention the same thing about Umar may Allah be pleased with him telling the people not to pay excessive dowries, and none of them mention that a woman stood up and corrected him, except that one narration which mentions that the woman objected but its chain of narration is weak. So all the numerous authentic narrations of that incident only state that Umar may Allah be pleased with him told the people not to pay excessive dowries but they don’t mention at all the woman standing up and objecting, which indicates that it didn’t happen or else all the trustworthy narrators would have mentioned it in the authentic narrations of that incident. So please do take it out so that it doesn’t spread among the people. JazakumAllah khayr.
Abd- Allah
June 10, 2010 at 11:18 PM
Just a friendly reminder sister Ify.
Ify Okoye
June 12, 2010 at 9:29 AM
Jazak’Allah khayr, okay, no problem. Our allegiance to the truth is greater than it is to any person, group, ideology, or argument. I will further edit the post when I get a chance, insha’Allah.
Iyad
June 9, 2010 at 4:07 PM
As-Salamu Alaikum
Yes the muslims used to pray without physicall barriar on the time of the Prophet. But why doesnt you go to the schoolars and shuyukh for this? The majority of the muslims doesnt even attend the prayers in masjids and you are wasting your time to make no barriar on the masjids? Subhan Allah. Waste your time for more important things!!
And then in this time when the brothers attend masjids with tight pants and when also the sisters dont dress properly you cant compare us to them. Usool al fiqh learn us that everything cant be applied on every time except the obligatory things in the religion. And praying without a barriar in the masjid is not obligatory. So i advice you to concentrate on the obligatory things like islamic morals and dressing proparly and learning tawhid etc.
abu Abdullah
June 9, 2010 at 6:00 PM
Almost 300..mashAllah. Never before I witness so many people typing their heads up, arguing so many articulate brilliant points. Where do people find time to type in so much that one could not read/digest ? during their work hours?? Is it halal to pass time during committed time? Is that part of earning ok?
i do not think author is going to understand and admit mistakes publicly So some of sisters who know them in person, and as The Prophet’s method of correcting other people’s mistakes advices, to rectify Pray In mistakes (in approach) in Person and in a gentle manner.
Abd- Allah
June 9, 2010 at 7:10 PM
Where did you read that Sidiq? Is that really true?
MW_M
June 9, 2010 at 7:51 PM
I’ve prayed behind many scholars and senior students of knowledge where there’s been a barrier between the brothers and sisters and never once have they said the prayer is invalid. Perhaps you can show us your evidence? Until then, the fact that exactly 100% of the scholars I’ve prayed behind have had no objection to it makes me think your opinion is invalid. On the contrary, I have explicitly heard the question asked if people can pray with gaps in between the rows and I have always been told that the opinion of all the madhahbs is that it is completely allowed as long as they are inside the same masjid. I’m not sure where you’re getting your fatwa because I have been told that the scholars have not differed on this.
And yes, you’re absolutely right, the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) did not have a barrier in his masjid. But because of that, after salah he would sit for awhile, waiting, until the sisters left, then he would turn around and that would be the signal for the brothers that they could get up and leave. (Tangent: I’ve always wondered, is this where the phrase “ladies first” originates from?)
Fast forward to the 21st century. Do you expect the sisters to leave right after salah without praying sunnah? I guarantee you most will not leave until they pray sunnah. Now you’ve put the brothers in a position where they don’t want to turn around until the sisters leave (and that is the sunnah) but will often times need to leave immediately, especially after Dhuhr and ‘Asr salah if they have work. The barrier solves that problem, there’s no need to wait because they can’t see the sisters.
Ok, now skip forward to jumu’ah. Don’t know about your masjid, but in most masajid across America, as soon as the imam makes tasleem, people get up and start chatting and leaving–it’s a very informal moment with jokes and salaams all around. Put brothers and sisters in a small room together (and it will be small compared to the size since people were praying foot to food a minute ago) and what do you expect to happen? You think there won’t be any accidental bumps. You think there won’t be any “accidental” bumps either.
Finally, the concept of a barrier has been around for centuries and the ulema have not found it to be problematic. The hadith which is being oft-quoted here, about the best of rows for the women being the last and the worst being the first; the scholars say that in the presence of a barrier, the best of rows for the women is the same as for the men, i.e. the best is the first and the worst is the last. This is what I was told by a scholar when someone asked this question and he was quoting imam An-Nawwawi. Sheikh ibn Baaz has a similar statement:
Safiya Outlines
June 9, 2010 at 8:46 PM
Salaam Alaikum,
Having read through all these comments I feel somewhat deflated.
Brothers, you need to realise that what the sisters are feeling is real.
I would like to add that in one of the world’s most famous mosques, the Umayyad in Damascus, everyone prays in the same hall. There is an ankle height chain separating the front section for brothers from the back section for sisters. It is a beautiful place to pray. I’ve never seen any brothers keel over from having to be so close to the sisters and this is in Syria, where you will see the full spectrum of Muslimah fashion.
Abd- Allah
June 9, 2010 at 9:07 PM
I think they have enough going on over there… there are graves in the Umayyad masjid in Damascus. How about we start a campaign around the world to clean our masajid from graves!! Then it might be much easier to address other issues like having the barrier or not.
elham
June 10, 2010 at 9:21 PM
lol..i’ve never heard of them..thats a bigger issue
Abd- Allah
June 10, 2010 at 9:40 PM
Well sister Elham, hopefully you don’t live near a masjid which has graves in it, so you don’t have to pray in such a masjid.
elham
June 10, 2010 at 10:24 PM
No,au’thoobillah I don’t live near one, let alone seen one!
PakistaniMD
June 9, 2010 at 11:19 PM
In the same article that Ify O. linked to (in the MuslimLink), there is fatwa on barrier separation in mosques by a imam part of the Fiqh Council of N. America. He states that barriers are undesirable and not necessary and not part of the tradition(s) of the prophet. The very fact that such an fatwa was printed merely pages after the ‘pray-in’ article is interesting to say the least…
ukhti
June 10, 2010 at 8:41 AM
I wish some of the sisters would stop assuming this is a popular sentiment amongst Muslim women. Its not, most women who are religious enough to frequently attend the masjid like the barriers. I have heard several sisters comment that if it wasn’t there we wouldn’t have any space for us because the men would just overflow into the area. Many Muslim sisters value their private space and have no problem being women. They don’t want to be men and this is the root of the issue. Its being pushed by feminist Muslim women, who like all feminist, are insanely jealous of men and want everything they have, well none of the responsibilities of men of course.
Why couldn’t these groups organize a masjid improvement committee? Spend their time cleaning the masjid, decorating the womens section, raising money for renovations. It just shows you they didn’t care about the what the Muslim sisters really wanted, they just want to prove women are just like men and push a certain political agenda.
I completely applaud all the brothers against this and the masjids standing up to this group.
Subhannallah I am so scared for the Muslim community, the women seem to keep falling for feminist nonsense hook, line and sinker. They have no idea they are encouraging the destruction of our deen, our civilized society. Look at America, its was powerful when it was Christian and patriarchal. Now its a joke and Western women’s lives are so much worse off. Muslim women have it so good, we have no clue how good we have it. Be grateful for this deen and stop trying to destroy it.
MW_M
June 10, 2010 at 3:19 PM
Jazakullah Khair sister, I agree with you that the article is giving a false impression that the majority of sisters want the barrier down. At best it is a tiny, vocal minority and the vast, vast majority of sisters would like a barrier up, albeit perhaps with more space/lighting/comfort.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
June 10, 2010 at 7:21 PM
I don’t claim to know what the percentages are, but it is definitely true that sisters have different opinions. When I was in charge of a small muSallah and had the ability to make the decision about this issue, I went into it thinking that it should be “however the sisters want it.” I found out quickly that there was no such thing as “the way the sisters thought” and I am sure most were willing to go along with whatever (this wasn’t an issue of different room or anything, just having a curtain or small barrier to kind of mark off separate areas in a small space) but a few on each side of the issue felt very strongly about it.
It is also interesting to note that the survey of Women-Friendly Mosques in England that Ify posted about elsewhere on the site, after surveying Muslim women they determined that one of the things that Muslim women wanted in a mosque for it to be women-friendly was to have a separate prayer area for women. And it didn’t seem like these women were “self-marginalizing” since the other criteria included access to services, education and influence at the masjid as well.
Ify Okoye
June 12, 2010 at 7:00 AM
As I’ve said to many other commenters, try to check your false assumptions, inneudo, misconceptions, and or simple lies at the door. Many of us within the Pray In frequent masajid, we are also religious, we do not wish to be men, and our preferred method of prayer setup has been validated by many opinions from the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam onward. If you want to organize a masjid improvement committee, feel free to do so, the best way to see an action implemented is to get on board and start working for it. Pray In is in a sense, a masjid improvement org, and our improvements often don’t cost a cent.
Subahan Allah
June 10, 2010 at 1:07 PM
I can’t believe these sisters, I am a woman myself… and subhana Allah,instead of being happy that they have a seperate room, where they can freely do anything they want comfortable, sit however, fix their hijabs if they needed, do wuduu, talk and interact with other sisters very freely, you’re saying ya let’s pray behind the men….
subhana Allah, whatever happened to the natural haya’ and ‘Ifah of women… not anymore
and honestly, today’s women no offence, they look like protitutes, back in the day in britain if women wore pants they were automatically labeled as protitutes… nowadays..like sheikh yasir qadhi said, they look better with clothes on than they would if they had nothing on. unfortunately, now women wear clothings to hide their imperfections and emphasise attraction, and many women even use other tools to make them appear more attractive, whether it’s high heels, specificily desinged pants to make certain areas stand out,…
subhana Allah…. subhanaAllah…
the women of today are truely cheap, and I always fee bad for the brothers who are related to such women…
Ify Okoye
June 12, 2010 at 7:03 AM
Truly cheap and lacking in hayah are your own comments.
Naureen
June 10, 2010 at 1:53 PM
sister or brother subhanallah, why would you think its somehow hayah-less for women to want to pray in one room behind the men? This is what happened at the time of the Prophet. (however the women / men were dressed appropraitely and behaved appropriately).
Adib Contractor
June 10, 2010 at 3:03 PM
asSalaamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh
Bismillah walhumdulillah wasSalaatu wasSalaamu ‘ala Rasoolillah
I don’t post on MM much, so I first make the intention to make this something of benefit, and I ask al-Jawwaad to bestow it with good.
I want to start by appreciating the brothers and sisters for their intention to combat a social ill in our Muslim communities and masajid. This is a brave stand to take and the road is long and hard; these days, it is rare to see anyone take a stand on these important issues which a large segment of our community is facing. I ask Allah, al-Ghaffaar, al-Mannaan, al-Haadee, al-Lateef, al-Qadeer to forgive their errors and correct their mistakes, to guide them to what is best for them in dunya and aakhirah, and to instill myself and all the Muslims with similar passion and commitment no matter what the cause may be, as long as it is right and just.
Sr. Ify, Jazakillahu Khairan for taking the time to write this piece. I really enjoy your writings on MM and your blog – a very refreshing perspective and style, always seeking to stir and spice things up :). May Allah continue to bless you and increase you in good, and give you the ability to benefit us with your writing and activism even more.
In my view, I agree with your stated macro-goal: A return to the example as Imam Safi says รขโฌลclosest to the sunnahรขโฌย of the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam where women are truly valued, included, and full participating members in our communities.
However, I respectfully disagree with your strategy of physically protesting and sometimes circumventing the rules of these masajid with regards to their separate prayer areas. The reason I disagree is that this plan of action, in my opinion, doesn’t seem to match up to your larger macro-goal. I’m not convinced about the efficacy of this objective in the overall scheme of your organization’s agenda.
Now, I’m not an advocate of putting sisters in a closet, or boiler room, or any sort of dangerous conditions. I think that any masjid administration which allows this to go on should fear Allah, and take immediate steps to rectify the situation. I also agree that women should be afforded equal accommodations according to their attendance in the masjid. And I think that men’s and women’s prayer areas should remain separated during the actual prayer times – with the condition, of course, that the area for both genders is comfortable and suitable for prayer (spacious, clean, quiet, lighted, etc.).
I realize that you wish to combat the “out of sight, out of mind” phenomenon concerning sisters in the masjid, but I don’t believe this applies. I don’t believe this is the reason why sisters are marginalized, and not valued, included, or full participating members of the communities. I say this because I have experience with a similar marginalized part of the community: the Muslim youth. Although we were (and still largely remain) marginalized, we are highly visible to every masjid.
I’ve been involved with youth work for the past 13 years, on a grassroots level – establishing youth groups in various masajid. There has always been resistance, from every single masjid administration, to some degree.
To some, it was a threat to their power. I remember sitting in a meeting between the youth leaders and masjid admin (president, secretary, some shura members). To say that the overall atmosphere was hostile would be an understatement. I brought up a point about transparency with the closed masjid shura meetings, and that we’d like to simply sit-in and observe, to get an understanding of how things are done. Now, I was not challenging anyone’s power, simply asking to be an observer — yet, one of the elders felt so threatened that he said to me point blank: “If you think the youth will get any power in this masjid, we will NEVER let this happen.” You can’t exactly have much constructive dialogue when one side has that attitude.
In another case, they would barely give us the time of day. We would repeatedly ask for meetings, yet were always told that other things were more pressing, that the shura barely had time for major issues like the expansion project. The funny thing was that they were planning to expand and they didn’t realize that without youth involvement, the giant masjid would stand as an empty shell 10 years from now. Anyway, it got to the point where we had to come and find the shura members ourselves, corner them in a classroom after salah, and talk to them about our concerns. To this day, there has not been one general sit-down between the youth and shura in that masjid, with all members present. They just don’t think the effort is worth it.
In yet another case, some kids who were not from the youth group broke into one of the offices and stole some snacks — and guess who was the first people the masjid admin blames? The best part: the kids who did it were the children of some of the senior masjid shura members, and those same members were the first to blame the youth group! Anything relating to youth was blamed on us, even the crimes of their own children.
All of this happened in only one masjid, over the past 10 years, even with all the changes to the shura that happened in that time. This was pretty mild compared to other cases in which the youth were barred from meeting in the masjid completely, or were subject to a youth group run by elders that barely spoke English.
Yet, there was progress. And that was because we started a drive to get youth back to the masjid. Be there every day, for as many salawaat as you can. Come to the general body meetings. Make sure you are officially registered members of the masjid, and attend their various meetings where members can voice their concerns. Organize programs that cater to the whole community. Get your name out there and get support from the sensible elders. Be active in external organizations and hone your leadership skills. We gained enough numbers and support that now, when we need something, they are quicker to answer and more eager to listen and work with us.
This process took almost 10 years. We had considered other tactics – once, we were denied having a qiyaam program by the masjid, even after the Imam himself said he would attend and be a chaperone (it was a completely separated program for both genders, with chaperones, and separate activities/lectures). Some members, including myself, were saying we should do it anyway, trying to think of loopholes and tactics under which they couldn’t stop us. Some even suggested to go as far as saying forget this masjid, let’s instead take the youth and go to another masjid permanently – that’ll show em (much like the “build your own masjid” mentality).
But we didn’t want to rub anyone the wrong way. We wanted to take the higher road, to do things within the framework of the rules (regardless of how strict or unfair we perceived them to be), and we wanted to never be the target of accusations that we were being disrespectful or dividing the community. We decided to be patient, and over time, the situation became much better, and continues to get better. We decided to set a precedent of using the system to change things, not working outside the system.
These administrations looked at us like their kids – meaning they could do anything they wanted, they knew best, and we really didn’t deserve a say in anything. If we tried anything, we’d be “grounded”. And that’s exactly how they view the sisters. The youth are visible and are still seen that way, so I don’t think being visible would further your goals at all. Abolishing the barrier would be a sort of pseudo-victory, which may even have blowback and turn the community and the masjid administrations against you, even more than they already seem to be. In my view, achieving your goal but having an underlying resentment against you because the mentality of the masjid hasn’t changed is really not achieving anything at all.
And so, I think that a change in strategy would be best. An effort, for sisters and by sisters, to come back to the masjid full force. To have the sheer numbers where they can’t be ignored or marginalized any more. To be so vital to the running of the masjid that it would simply fall apart if the sisters left (which, in many communities, is already the case). To lead amazing projects that masajid will be tripping over each other to have you as part of their activities. To show them what you can do and why these communities cannot survive without you.
I believe this is the best vehicle for change, rather than a sensational approach whose muscle is the media.
I know that you first approached the masajid and received no response, but I also think think that this protesting action was premature, and more effort should have been given to dialogue first. As ‘Umar ibn ‘Abdul ‘Azeez said, the corruption which took hold over years will not be overturned in one night – it will take years to correct.
As for any assault that took place: This was an obvious oppression and injustice. I ask Allah to guide that brother to repentance and that He forgives and covers his sins, and I ask Allah to raise the rank of the sister who was unjustly assaulted and to grant her safety from such injustice in the future.
I hope that you were not offended and that my words were beneficial. Anything wrong or offensive is from me and my own misunderstandings, and any good is from Allah Alone. I ask Allah to aid your cause, to guide you to that which is best, to relieve the suffering of all marginalized groups, to forgive our leaders their shortcomings and to reward them for all the work that they do, and to enter all of us into Jannat ulFirdaws. Ameen.
Wallahu ta’aala ‘alam
Jazakumullahu Khairan
P.S. I counted the phrase “red herring” used 6 times on this page. Please stop blaming a poor fish, they deserve justice too. <(o)<
Ikhlas
June 10, 2010 at 4:53 PM
+10 Very eloquently articulated and I completely agree.
– Sister in Islam
Abd- Allah
June 10, 2010 at 4:55 PM
You bring up good points brother Adib. I think that most people do support the idea that women, among others like the youth and even most men, should be included in the community and play an active part of it and be given proper accommodations at the masaajid, but I think the main issue here is that people differ on the way to go about doing so. Many have commented saying that while they support the general idea of the group, yet they don’t agree with the approach which the group is taking such as protests and not following the rules of the masjid or the instructions of the Imam of the masjid.
UmmMaryam
June 10, 2010 at 9:08 PM
wa ‘alaikum assalaam ,
+101 brother Adib
This is advice for myself first, and all:
If there is a problem in the Muslim community, do not see other Muslims as your enemy and come down upon them. Inshallah that is not the intent, I am not at all saying that is the intent, to cause fitna, but it is the RESULT because of the perception. One may intend one thing but a person’s actions can make people perceive another thing, ie outside domination/interference/disruption.
Example, the husband wife disagreement…wife may say I feel xyz, husband says are you saying I did xyz, I never said that…wife responds no, I didn’t say you said that, but I feel this way. I felt hurt anyway though I know you didn’t mean it but the effect on my heart was such. Let us not hurt the hearts of our fellow Muslims.
So word choice, and in this case, action choice is very important. Work with love, rather than resentment and bitterness.
Let not Shaytaan happily run amongst us.
Surah Isra: “wa qul li ‘ibaadee yaqoolullatee heeya AHSAN, innash SHAYTAANA yanzaghoo baynahum. Innash Shaytana kaana lil insaani ‘adoowam mubeena.
“And Say to My Servants that they should say what is best, indeed shaytaan causes discord amongst them. Indeed Shaytaan is to human a clear enemy.
and success also comes wit hthe concept: “idfa’ billatee heeya ahsan” :repel evil with that which is best. Those feeling marginalized, it is not only a Qur’anic suggestion, you will find more support if your ways are beautiful. yes, this requires more patience, more creativity, but in the long run (or maybe in the shorter run) you will succeed with a more lasting success. An analogy: my daughter is eating in the living room and the rule is she can only eat in the kitchen: if I tell her get outa here, get back in the kitchen she will either rebel or break down in tears then i have to deal with her breakdown. if I tell her oh oh I think you forgot can you pleeeez go to the kitchen (with a smile on my face to add to it), she will with a smile go running back. Granted, she may sometimes say no, and perhaps one might say I ought to “protest” or use force or come down with a heavy handed :) approach but actually, then the next strategy that works is distraction….get her to come to the kitchen with the excuse of giving her some apple juice to go with her crackers (that are causing crumbs on the living room carpet)… then she forgets she is doing it to complly, she comes running eageryly for juice, then I remind her to stay there….yes, with adults it may be more complicated but the carrot sure works better than the stick, esp these are fellow muslims.
And remember also shaytaan tricks us into doing things that we think are good, but are actually either 1) bad or 2) a lesser good than the optimal good. Remember he always wants to minimize our good deeds and maximize our bad deeds.
example: Shaytan tricked Adam (surah Taha) into eating from the tree by saying “shall I lead you to a tree of eternity (that will give you eternal life) and a dominion that will not fail? ” whoa hold on a sec, didn’t Allah promise Adam alayhissalaam that Jannah would be his except that he should not eat from the tree? But the invitation of the moment is what can get us.we forget, as our father Adam alayhissalaam forgot. we can work for one thing, to the extent we are blinded to all other things, except our own thing.
A person may be reading Qur’an and a person in front of them falls to the ground and they ignore them and keep reading Qur’an, when they had the ability to help the person who fell.
Laa ilaaha illa ant, subhanaka innee kuntu minaz zhaalimeen.
Subhanaka Allahuma wa bihamdik Ash-hadu anlaa ilaaha illa anta. astaghfiruka wa atooobu ilayk.
May Allah ”azza wa jalla enter us all into his firdaws, dear sisters and respected brothers.
wassalaamu ‘alaikum,
sorry for typos, kids running around
Ify Okoye
June 12, 2010 at 7:19 AM
Wa salaam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh Br. Adib,
Jazak’Allah khayr for your time and comments, very interesting experience, thank you for sharing, full of benefit. No one is blaming the fish, it’s just such a convenient example, a form of praise in a way. :)
I agree there is an element of the challenge to authority or fear of loss of power than comes with empowering other groups be it women, other men, or the youth. And I agree that there are possibly many approaches one group or a number of groups can take, I’m just not convinced that we need entirely discount one method as opposed to another. In issues such as these a multi-pronged approach is sometimes necessary and can be of benefit, old and long ingrained attitudes often adapt slowly yet we have seen countless examples in history where change happened due to a number of factors including the approach you mentioned. As always, I’m open to good constructive feedback like yours and those of some others here.
Ameen to all of the dua.
AbdulHasib
June 10, 2010 at 9:45 PM
as-salamu ‘alaikum wa rahamtullah,
Here are some principles with some points, if we were to take into consideration the entire situation holistically:
Please forgive me as I didn’t want to make it long and highlight every single point – so this is at best a summary with what stands out to me, personally.
1. The situation at best can be summarized from the perspective of usul, as:
Taking precedence of an, at BEST recommended action (a woman going to a masjid so that she can learn the deen of Allah – and in lieu of that her praying in it) to justify the failure of holding to and establishing an obligation (holding on to the jam’ah – the community and) by doing it in (an at LEAST) disliked manner (causing a rift in communities and inviting non muslims who are volatile, or worse people who dislike the deen and shari’ah in general, to partake in this to ‘draw awareness’).
2. secondly, it is at the end of the day the BEST, most recommended, and beloved action to Allah and His messenger, for a muslimah with regard to her daily prayer, in general:
for a woman to pray in her house, in her quarters, beseeching her Creator.
So much so that it is mentioned that in her intention, if she had the capacity and capability to pray in Masjid Al Haram and she would intend to pray all of her prayers there, sincere to her Lord รขโฌโ she would be rewarded each prayer she prays in her quarters, the prayer of praying in Masjid Al Haram – based on her sincerity to her Lord.
Whereas a man – he is enjoined to go out, and strive against himself and is enjoined upon him to pray in congregation, in the masjid. And even then the reward is in the hands of Allah 27 or more time fold to be multiplied, accounting for his khushu’ and sincerity, as well as overcoming the hardships of living as a minority in a disbelieving land to establish the prayer… and taking into consideration the principle,” with greater hardships to overcome, the greater the reward in the sight of Allah.”
So the question must be asked, are we still REALLY that concerned about ”Gender equality” when one realizes the Generosity of our Creator?
3. We should take into consideration our rank and status in the sight of Allah over establishing our ‘station’ in the sight of people.
4. And as far as “we need to be more understanding of sisters,” goes
there are more than a handful of masajid and imams that go out of their way, such as shaykh Safi Khan, to cater and understand the feelings of the sisters and discuss their complaints with them. And it’s these people of knowledge jobs’ to make clear what is relevant in our time when “considering acting upon the sunnah” and to understand the sisters feelings and put these sisters views into perspective for them using the criterion of their knowledge and depth in understanding the communities needs.
Superseding the religious authority after they’re been more than open to discuss this matter, goes against the injunctions of the Qur’an and our Messenger salAllahu ‘alaihi wa sallam to seek the counsel of those in authority amongst us, the imams and knowledgeable in our communities..
5. It takes deep reflection and counsel with Allah ‘azza wa jal, to remember that we must always seek the side of safety with our Lord. And always ask “What would my Lord prefer me to do the MOST? What would guarantee that my actions are accepted by him 100%?”
And more so to be ‘in tune’ with Him subhanahu wa ta’la to accept the advice of muslims and elders if they see the negatives outweighing the positives. Or even the original goal of a sincere action, being negated if those objectives are curbed to make false notions.
6. The fact an issue becomes an aspect of emotions. And the fact there exists an EXTREME response to this and it causes the rising of emotion – does not give validity to an opposite polar extreme … based on emotions. The turning point is not what WE (the lay) can gather and bring together with our research on what fits and caters to OUR desire.. but rather turning to, TRULY turning, to the religious establishment we are enjoined to turn to as lay people!
And the greatest principle in this regard is – “if an aspect of the law we happen to choose to follow (an “interpretation” if you will”) coincides with a desire that we had previously…. then we should be very, very, very, very careful in knowing and affirming, and re-affirming that this following is based on our understanding of what has been made apparent to us as the TRUTH (based on scholarly direction, not our own), and not simply the following of our desires since it happens to coincide with our desires.”
7. And in the end of all of this: we should upon ourselves that matters such as this require the turning to a person who has true understanding (a faqih)
having true fiqh, understanding in these matters is that
which รยฃรโ รล รยนรยฑรย รยงรโรโฆรยฑรโฐรยก รยงรโรยรยฑรโ รยจรล รโ – รยฎรล รยฑ รยงรโรยฎรล รยฑรล รโ … รห รยดรยฑ รยงรโรยดรยฑรล รโ
“someone recognizes and knows, the difference between the better of two good things, and the more consequentially evil, of two evil things.”
May Allah grant us the best in this dunya and akhirah, and guide us all to what pleases Him, and grant the sisters and the communities involved, the reward for their enthusiasm and the guidance to act on what is right and beloved to Him. Ameen.
Ify Okoye
June 12, 2010 at 8:10 AM
Wa salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah Br. AbdulHasib,
Ameen.
The benefits of going to the masjid are numerous and some have been mentioned here in the comments and in other posts. And quite frankly women are not always in their homes, the closest place to pray may be a masjid, since I’m sure none of us would advise a that a woman should miss her salah. And such is the generosity of our Creator and the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam that it is allowed in our religion for women to pray in the masjid unmolested.
There was no pray-in at Imam Safi’s masjid simply because he was open to discussion and feedback and believes barriers are not “closest to the sunnah” and even expressly conveyed that he would support the right of women to pray behind the men even today. This cannot be said of all others particularly those not even willing to engage in any discussion at all.
Ummezaynub
June 11, 2010 at 2:03 PM
Dear Sister Ify,
Asalamalaikum,
Kudos for getting that chain off the door! Even though it took one year; that is normal for many masajid to address issues in that slow manner even life and death ones. Most of the รขโฌหunclesรขโฌโข on the board are volunteers, they argue back and forth and it gets put off until the next meeting. The influential wives of board members often make decisions over the dinner table with their husbands. Women, men, newcomers, youth ALL have felt disfranchised.
I totally agree that you cannot shut out half of humanity from Allahรขโฌโขs houses. If sisters werenรขโฌโขt involved in our masjid, we would have no weekend/summer school, lunch box program, masjid clean up interfaith outreach, youth group, Tajweed classes etc. However, may I give you a perspective from a masjid where we have no barrier in the main hall and an adjacent hall with a curtain? Some women listen to lectures in the main hall, others listen in the curtained area, still others with or without children sit in the classrooms. There are often many more women in our masjid then men especially on weekends and I donรขโฌโขt know if that is a good thing.
There was a curtain in the main hall but one sister decided to remove it on her own stating some of the same reasons mentioned by other sisters above and it was never put up again. Keep in mind women were always involved from the beginning so the removal of the curtain did not give the women รขโฌหmoreรขโฌโข power. These are the observations I have made in MY masjid- not saying this will happen everywhere.
Women still sit and talk even in the main hall, kids still run around. The sisters dress so inappropriately in the masjid. Slowly and steadily it has gotten worse. First the scarves slipped off. Now, we see sleeveless, full on makeup and these are not the youth but older women who are very particular about their salah. I used to think at least they are coming to the masjid, but now it has become a domino effect. One starts doing it and then the rest follow until it has become the culture. Symbolically that curtain being removed lifted inhibitions. Not every community is spiritually ready for this.
I have a hard time bringing my family to masjid esp. during Ramadan. A woman scholar I invited to speak called it a zoo; my sister and mum in law refuse to attend when they visit because men and women mingle openly, chatting in the hall, laughing. There is no sanctity or hurmat of the mosque . Itรขโฌโขs the other extreme. So many families have left. We have even had sisters complain of รขโฌหaccidentalรขโฌโข touches. This may be because it is a smaller masjid and there is proximity of sexes. Maybe if it were a much larger building it would not be so. So when I attend a masjid with proper rules and separation of the sexes, my ibadah feel so intense, so peaceful.
Why do I still attend this masjid? It is the one of the two in our city. I have been attending since the inception so feel a sense of attachment. I feel like if everyone who stands on haq leaves then there will be no one to remind them. We win some battles and lose others. Some sisters will say to me you go talk to the board/imam- you are dressed properly. So I know in their heart they know. May Allah guide us all.
I have access to our part time imam, who is a Mufti (MashaAllah) thru e-mail, his cell phone and can stop him any time during his exit/entry into the masjid. I feel bad for him as he tries to avoid the fitnah. However, many sisters do not make any use of his expertise. My friends and I also call the imam at another masjid in the next town over, even though that masjid is very conservative. He holds many classes just for women. I havenรขโฌโขt really learned my deen, through congregational prayers. Itรขโฌโขs the time spent listening to lectures, attending classes with teachers that mothers learn deen not while our kids are wrestling in the musallah during salah.
I feel for you and the other brother missing the family atmosphere in the church but a masjid is not a church. Our salah is very different, you all know that better than me. I just attended the RIS conference and experienced that feeling sitting with my family and listening to the various scholars and it was very moving. Maybe that is the right avenue for this kind of worship. Not putting down your feelings of wanting to worship together but just like the immigrants who want to attach their cultural norms to Islam, may be some of the sisters (not you per se) are looking at it from the American cultureรขโฌโขs perspective. I say that very hesitatingly not wanting to hurt anyone, but cultural bias can work both ways.
In California, many of the larger masjids are very woman friendly some are conservative, some liberal. From SALAM in Sacramento, Mission Viejo, Islamic Center of Southern California to Granada Hills all have women involved and/or have equitable woman spaces. Kent Masjid in Seattle, WA has a whole house dedicated to women. Women run that place and prefer the autonomy.
I have attended masjids where I have felt like pariah asking to for a place to complete my salah. Sneaking into the sides entries like I did something wrong. But they were mostly very tiny, newer masjids with minimum funds. I do not know what I would do if a masjid I moved to did not appreciate the world of good that can come from women being involved in the community BUT the hurmat of the masjid must be a priority.
This issue is so complicated- May Allah help our communities across the country satisfy the needs of their members. Ameen.
A note to any masjid planners: In the US, the masjids do double as community centers. Many of these problems that reverts, youth, women looking for social interaction/education would come closer to a solution if the musallah was separate from the center. Then even if we messed up and did not come dressed appropriately or wanted to hang out with friends and talk, or wanted to have a garlic-crusted chicken sandwich, we would not be sinning by not following the etiquettes of the masjid. The mussallah needs to be demarked, separate from the rest of the community center in each masjid across the country because so many rules, ie no business in the masjid, no announcement of lost items apply to the masjid but not to the community center. Attendees too should do their part and see if the masjid is purely a masjid or includes a community center and behave accordingly.
Just my very long two cents.
Ify Okoye
June 12, 2010 at 8:43 AM
Salaam alaykum Ummezaynub,
Ameen. Interesting points and fascinating experiences, jazaki’Allahu khayr for sharing. I went masjid-hopping in Seattle a few years back but must have missed the Kent one.
I think coming to the masjid, in this day and age with all of the accompanying distractions around, should be encouraged for everyone even those who might not be at a level of practice we think or deem appropriate. In my own experience, so much of my growth in Islam can be traced to getting out of my comfort zone as I’m naturally pretty shy and forcing myself to go out and visit new masajid and communities, getting involved even if I don’t know anyone, and learning and interacting with other Muslims. It’s made me more understanding and tolerant, more gentle and more forgiving of others.
I spent my first years in Islam mainly reading loads of books and articles and interacting online, which no doubt had tangible benefits yet there are also a great many benefits in putting that book knowledge into practice not just with your non-Muslim family, classmates, and coworkers but also with your brothers and sisters in faith. And one can say as you alluded to that if all of those with stronger iman left, what would happen, we might be okay but what the others. So often it is those most in need of coming to the masjid and most in need of Muslim companionship and support that we turn away from the masjid and then complain (not you, just in general) that they are going astray without guidance.
The masajid I attend most frequently and have over the years have always had partitions to varying degrees, and I remember some years back walking out of a packed masjid just before maghrib in Ramadan that had a less than knee-high see through barrier with men and women chatting back and forth over it that made me feel uncomfortable. I returned home to break my fast that day and to pray maghrib before going to another masjid that routinely kicked the sisters out of the masjid building entirely for jumu’ah during Ramadan and for isha and taraweeh had sisters in the basement or another building. But that’s where I felt I could have more khushu in my worship.
I learn a lot by praying in jama’ah and from the reminders afterward. I remember once I was traveling in Canada and a sister and I prayed fajr in the masjid on a weekend and then I waited high in the sisters darkened balcony expecting there to be the usual after-fajr halaqah or at least some words, a hadith, an ayah, or at least something but to my surprise everyone quickly left after the salah. I remember after beginning my Arabic classes that one day for maghrib or isha in the masjid, the imam read the hadith of the man who killed 99 and the joy and amazement at realizing that I could understand the simple Arabic and begin to piece together my own rudimentary translation without waiting for the English translation, which followed.
I don’t miss the “family atmosphere” of church at all but I do miss being respected as a full human being worthy of dignity and respect when I come to our masajid.
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Ify Okoye
June 21, 2010 at 4:40 AM
This just in, it appears that the DC police department headed by Police Chief Cathy Lanier are no longer going to intervene in Pray Ins.
Sayf
June 21, 2010 at 12:47 PM
Leadership with questionable goals + improperly defined group goals —–> heat + COรขโโ + HรขโโO
Ify Okoye
June 29, 2010 at 10:20 PM
Alhamdulillah, I’ve just started a new job a few minutes down the road from Dar al-Hijrah, prayed maghrib there today, and looks like I’m on my way to becoming a regular there once again.
Ali
July 10, 2010 at 12:14 PM
I agree with a lot but we must remember the sunnah in it. Using a common prayer space and allowing a common area where you can access the imam and participate in classes is fine but if done women should still seperate from the men in general.
Remember:
Abu Hurairah reported that the Prophet said: รขโฌลThe best row for the men (in the Masjid) is the first (row) and the worst or most dangerous is the last; and the best row for woman (in the Masjid) is the last, and the worst (or most dangerous) is the first.รขโฌย
(Sahih Muslim)
bintamina
July 27, 2010 at 12:37 AM
Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakatu
The following is a question posed to and answered by Shaykh ‘Uthaymeen rahimahullaah.
Q: In one of the mosques there is a partition between men and women. A dispute has arisen as to how important this partition is. Some think that there is no need for it, because at the time of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) there was no partition; others insist on having it. The resulting argument may lead those who think there should be no partition to stop praying in the mosque, despite the fact that removing the partition could lead to some degree of mixing or looking at the opposite sex when leaving the mosque, because some of the men are not strongly committed in their religion. Should we insist on keeping the partition even though some people may stop praying in the mosque, or should we remove it although this may lead to people looking at the opposite sex?
A: The partition should stay. The fact that there was no partition at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was either because there was no need for it or because there was a reason why they could not have a partition. With regard to the former, the Sahaabah, may Allaah be pleased with them, had such strong faith in Allaah that they would not look at women; with regard to the latter, the financial situation of the Sahaabah, as we know, especially before the conquests, was one of hardship, and they could not afford to put a partition between themselves and the women. Having understood this, we should next look at which is further removed from fitnah, having a partition or not having it? Everyone will agree that having the partition is less likely to cause fitnah. If that is the case, then whatever is less likely to cause fitnah is what should be done. If you say, รขโฌลIf we insist on keeping it, those who want to remove it will stay away from the mosque,รขโฌย our response is that if they stay away, they are doing wrong. They have no excuse for failing to pray in jamaaรขโฌโขah because of this partition being there. Having the partition there is not a sin such that they could say, รขโฌลWe are not coming to be witnesses to sin.รขโฌย If they stay away, they are committing sin by failing to attend prayers in congregation.
May Allaah ta’ala have mercy on Shaykh ‘Uthaymeen and allow us to benefit from the wisdom he has imparted. Allahumma Aameen.
Wa Salamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakatu
Salman Aziz
August 23, 2010 at 11:50 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum
There is no partition between men and women if we follow Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). In his lifetime women prayed a row behind men. This is how it should be in each Mosque if they Obey Allah (swt) and Obey the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). If we accept that the religion was completed on the Prophet then how dare any one of us uses are own desires to make changes in the religion.
I pray Allah (swt) opens our hearts to submitting to Him and following the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
Salman
Mohammad
October 23, 2010 at 7:51 PM
why dont you say that to the sahaba (rd)and tabi’in (rh)… i’m pretty sure you have a better understanding than them on what is closer to sunna
are we more adherent to the sunna than them?
“own desires” thats a key word think about it.
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Zia-e-Taiba
October 18, 2016 at 2:32 AM
We should always follow Sunnah.