BrokenHeartI write this with an aching heart and furious thoughts.

No doubt by now you have heard of Aqsa Parvez, the 16 year old girl who was killed by her father, allegedly over the removal of her hijab.

Needless to say, we are all shocked, horrified, and saddened. Yet I, for one, am also angry. Inevitably, the first thing that seems to be expected of us is a condemnation of this man's actions. And so here it is, my condemnation: What happened to Aqsa Pervez was WRONG, was not an “honour crime” but was, like all such crimes, dishonourable. It was, without a doubt, unIslamic. Nothing in the Shari'ah says that a girl may be killed if she removes her hijaab.

But you know what's even sadder? My condemnation is not purely sorrowful. It is tinged – more than tinged, it is stained – with anger at those who demand such a condemnation from me. Why, why, WHY is it that whenever someone who is Muslim, or has a Muslim-sounding name, does something… it's automatically blamed on Islam? Every time I'm expected to condemn something done by a Muslim, I want to demand in turn that all Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Wiccans, Communists, Germans (on behalf of the Nazis), and Caucasians apologize and condemn every single crime committed by those who belong to their religious or ethnic group.

What makes it worse is that there are those who would use this as an opportunity to hurt the Muslim community even more – in the name of Muslims themselves! Tarek Fatah, renowned fool and know-nothing who spews rubbish every time he opens his mouth, has caused even more damage in this article published in the National Post. It can be summarized as ignorant, muck-stirring, rabble-rousing, fear-mongering LIES that will only make the situation worse for Muslims.

Muslims in Canada are now going to have to deal not only with the grief and shock of Aqsa's murder, but can expect now to be looked at with suspicion and hatred from those who now think that Muslims are living some secret double-life. More than ever, Muslim men will be thought of as oppressors, fanatics, and radicals; more than ever Muslim women will be thought of as oppressed slaves, of living in fear.

I want to know why, when an “honour killing” happens amongst the Sikh community (and it's happened, more than once, where a girl was killed by her father or another male relative because they found out she had a secret boyfriend or something), it never gets so blown out of proportion as it is when Muslims are involved. The hypocrisy and double standards are sickening.

(The National Post is ingenious enough to also publish this article, which in one breath tells everyone that “Muslim honour killings” are coming to Canada, and in another breath 'reassures' everyone that it's probably just an isolated incident. Note the phrase “imported violent and backward practices” – that really gives you a good impression of immigrants, eh?)

This incident, however, also throws light on another major issue in the Muslim community: that of the Muslim youth, and their pride in their religion and identity as Muslims. It also forces us to think about how parents are dealing with kids who are going through the whole “Muslim-in-the-West” struggle.

Honestly, I think it's an over-worked topic. I've heard and read about it so much that I could probably list what's wrong with Muslim teens, and what the solution to their problems are, in my sleep. Sadly, there are others who, despite the staggering amount of resources dedicated to this issue, continue to struggle.

Rather than writing yet another article on the subject and recycle well-known points, I'll just use this as a reminder to you on the importance of interacting with youth and taking into consideration their concerns and issues. If nothing else, let this incident make you get up and start doing something to help the Muslim youth in your community.

To non-Muslims, I hope you read this article with a clear mind and realize that the Muslim community in Canada is neither a secret cult, or made up of hordes of “ignorant immigrants,” and we are most certainly not blind to the many issues going on in our community. Don't assume that we're all ostriches with our heads stuck in the sand (or snow, as the case may be at this time of the year). Don't think that we're all sitting silently on the sidelines, or that murder and abuse are commonplace in our home – they are not more prevalent than anything happening in your families.

I urge you to read more about Islam and Muslims (this website is a good start!), and better yet, to get to know Muslims personally. Discover for yourself how Muslims in Canada aren't all that different from you. Yes, we may have some beliefs and practices that differ from yours, but in general we share many of the same values. Those “Judeo-Christian” values, based on the Ten Commandments, that I'm constantly told Canada was founded upon – guess what? Muslims believe in each and every one of the Ten Commandments too. Food for thought, eh?

With that, I end my lengthy rant and pray that Allah give us the strength and patience to deal with difficult situations such as this; and that He grant us the knowledge, wisdom, and understanding to keep toughing it out succesfully. Ameen!

Related: An example of much better reporting, from Yahoo! News.

162 Responses

  1. AnonyMouse

    I think that it’s important we make our voice heard regarding this subject, especially since it’s going to be headline news for at least the whole day.

    If you’re a reader or subscriber to the National Post, I urge you to write letters to the editor; and if you hear a talk show discussing this subject, then please call in and make some of the points mentioned in this post known!

    We can’t let this become another excuse for Muslim-bashing…

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  2. ibnabeeomar

    I think there’s a few key issues here.

    1) Killing the girl is wrong, period. a much bigger crime than the girl not wearing hijab.

    2) the national media is going to use this issue as an excuse to launch an assault on the hijab in general and encourage people not to wear it. its going to further entrench it as a symbol of oppression.

    3) i think this shows the need for dawah in our communities. we need to step up the educational efforts about islam to the “general” muslim crowd living in the west.

    theres a lot more to be said but id like to hear what the other readers have to say inshallah.

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  3. Sequoia

    Mouse.. great post….a couple thoughts
    Its a tragic story on many different levels. I do agree that there was nothing religious about this, alhough many will use it as another example to criticize Islam and muslims in general. A person would have to be extremely ignorant to think Muslims hold a monopoly on violence within the household. There is no religion, culture or race which escapes commiting atrocities. A person who would harm his child has issues well beyond comprhension of most of us. I also understand your frusteration of having to defend Islam whenever one of these incidents comes up…or when people ask.. why don’t the “good” msulims ever protest. So I do understand your frusteration, as most of these people don’t really care about the girl, but are usuing the issue to re-enforce their own prejuduced views. But I do think we always need to condemn attrocities without any “buts” or caveats. There are always going to be people who pretend to be concerned or are looking for another way to slam Islam but that is there problem. I remeber I was living in Turkey when the photo of Abu Gharib frst surfaced. I also remeber reading many journalists who said we should never make the photos published, because that only advances the enemy propoganda and hurts the American image. But it is the right and just thing to oppose and make public attrocities. Whether it is dones by an American solider, a Missuaga father or a Yezidi lynch mob. It will only hurt all of us, if we stay silent beacuse we are worried about our image.

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  4. Amad

    What a horrible story and IF TRUE AS PRESENTED (the important disclaimer because there is always two sides to the story), then what a misguided father! Never will such a thing find justification from any sane Muslim with the slightest bit of knowledge.

    I should ask though, as Mouse asked, why am I, as a Muslim, responsible for all wacko acts committed by Muslims? Are all Americans responsible for the number of rapes that occur in America everyday? Are all Americans responsible for the woman who drowned her babies? I DONT CARE in whose name or religion people do wacko things; if there is no justification for it in the religion, why blame it? I mean if this was really the “required duty” of “conservative” Muslims to hurt their daughters if they dont wear hijab, then do you know how MANY girls would be hurting? Because there are tons and tons of sisters out there who are not wearing hijab but we don’t see their fathers going after them with a sledge-hammer? In other words, this is an anamoly, a rarity, a fluke, and flukes don’t define the religion or the majority of practitioners.

    While we on the subject of “condemning”, why don’t we expect ALL the hindus to condemn the act of “suttee/sati” (where the widow burns herself alive with her husband), still commonly practiced in Indian areas? Or the thousands upon thousands of abortion practiced in India and China of little girls? (See this article) Where is the outrage? I mean you can add up all the misguided actions of the Muslims and it won’t come close to the little girls that have been cut alive or aborted in other sick ways because of the need for a boy?

    Of course, not to mention the outrage committed against human rights in Chechnya, Palestine and other places… that’s all ok.

    The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

    P.S. And to the regressive clown’s (Fatah) hypocritical, opportunitistic article… another reminder of the sheer stupidity of our media: lifting clowns who have absolutely ZILCH respect and following in the community to further fan the flames of stereotyping. Media: do you really think anyone cares about this guy? Do you really think his pathetic rants will have any effect on the Muslim community? If you want to really “talk to the Muslims”, do it with leaders who WE consider leaders, not your little neocon bosses.

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  5. ibnabeeomar

    also – in a broader sense – what happened was tragic – but it is just as bad as most incidents of domestic violence, rape, and sexual molestation that happen here on a daily basis. if this was a white christian family that had a falling out over something, it would have been a small blip on the radar.

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  6. Faraz

    This story also really upset me when I heard about it. It’s sad that, because of the media campaign against our community, we lose sight of the real tragedy. Why do people need my condemnation anyway? It doesn’t change what happened. I don’t think I should need to prove that such incidents horrify and disgust me, just as I don’t need to prove my disgust when a non-Muslim commits a crime.

    It’s frustrating to no end, and I’ve already seen the start of another anti-hijab campaign as the result. May Allah protect all of us from such ignorance.

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  7. talib

    on another view of this incident. I had a conversation with my sister over the issue of high school muslim girls taking off their hijab when they reach school. Since me and her went to a predominanetly muslim populated public school..over 60% i think. she said that a huge number of sisters would change their clothes in the school washroom first thing in the morning, and it goes to the extent of putting all kinds of makeup and blow drying and all that non muslims girls do. So this sad event should be a lesson to all parents to review their teachings of their daughters, to make sure they understand why the hijab is an obligation.

    tarek fatah and others in his organization which we should call apostates, who speak in behalf of the muslim community in toronto are causing the distortion of islam in the eyes of non muslims. somebody should really address their problem.

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  8. DrM

    Sickening. A girl is murdered and scum like Fatah can’t wait to put his spin on the tragedy.

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  9. AnonyMouse

    Re: Muslims following the Ten Commandments

    It should be noted that we affirm that the Sabbath was commanded for the nations before us, but God did not place that requirement on us with His final revelation.
    Muslims’ “holy day” or rough equivalent of the Sabbath is Friday, referred to as “Yawm al-Jumu’ah.”

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  10. AnonyMouse

    I encourage readers to distribute this post online and cross-link wherever possible… if one Google’s “Aqsa Parvez” you’ll find articles such as Tarek Fatah’s, and worse, from the likes of Michelle Malkin and more. Let’s try to get our voice, and our concerns, heard over the rabid rantings of the Muslim-haters.

    Also, a follow-up post is to come, insha’Allah.

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  11. Sequoia

    Amad, I second your notion….I was thinking the same thing about the women who drowned her babies and how stupid it is to seek out Muslims to condemn every single thing that a Muslim does. I also find it unbeliveable that the smae people who slam Islam constantly are now pretending to be outraged that a Muslim sister was killed by her apparently sick father. Again, as Amad and others have pointed out, hate and cruelty know no religion exclusively.

    Also, I was reading you post Mouse about how one should try to elarn more about Islam and Muslims before one rushes to judgement. This cannot be closer to the truth. I believe it to be impossible for anyone who has lived in a Muslim country, worked with Muslims, or befriended any muslims to come away with anything less than a positiv image. Your reference to this notion also reminded me of the latest Michael Totten dispatch from Fallujah. For those of you who don’t know, Totten is an independt journalist who has embedded with the US army in Iraq. Needless to say, his politics and and world views differ tremendoulsy from Mouse and most people who post here. I bring this up, only beacuse he recently was in Fallujah, Iraq and this is what he reported :

    “I hear criticism of Iraqis of some kind almost every day when I’m in Iraq. There is a lot to criticize. Iraq is a broken country. Its infrastructure and economy are shot, its political culture dysfunctional. In my experience, though, contempt for Iraqi culture specifically, and Arabs and Islam more generally, is far more prevalent in the American civilian population, even in liberal coastal cities, than it is among American soldiers and Marines who interact with Iraqis every day, forge sometimes intense personal bonds with Iraqis, eat Iraqi food, and speak at least a little Arabic. Stereotypes about racist and psychotic Marines, as well as fanatical and psychotic Iraqis, can’t survive a lengthy trip to Fallujah, at least not to the Fallujah of late 2007″

    http://www.michaeltotten.com/

    I bring this up only beacuse I think it relates to exactly what Mouse was saying. Totten says the soldiers he routinely talks with, for the most part have very warm and positve feelings for Arabs and muslims which is in stark contrast to many of their feelings during basic training or before interacting with any Muslims. Again, I bring this up not to talk about the Iraq war, but to talk about the inteleectually bank-rupt notion that only Islam is violent and backwards. Right-wing sites who love to to talk and support the war have ignored completely this statement by Totten, because it doesn’t fit their world view. I can also personally attest to how living in a Muslim country changed my worldview, so this statemnet by this journalist hits close to home for me.

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  12. Amad

    Sequoia, it is so refreshing to read your comments every time. Your ability to look at things by being in someone else’s shoes is a gift that we all enjoy.

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  13. Amad

    From Rasheed Gonzales– perhaps it never was about the hijab:

    Brother says dispute was not over hijâb:

    The brother of a teen who died after being attacked in her family home Monday denies claims that his sister and their father argued over her refusal to wear the hijab.

    Muhammad Shan Parvez wouldn’t elaborate on that statement outside Brampton court Wednesday, saying only that his mother was still extremely upset about the death of his sister, 16-year-old Aqsa Parvez.

    “We are upset,” he said. “(My mother) is sick right now. She cannot control, because her daughter died, so she’s bad.”

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  14. Muslimah

    Bismillah

    I’m saddened by this situation and am hurting for the mother….What happened was horrible no matter which way you look at it.

    I understand your frustration AnonyMouse as I’ve seen the media run with this story and use it to Attack islam and the Hijab. I suggest you call up or email your local Radio/ TV station or Newspaper and express your views as I plan to do inshaAllah.

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  15. Tasbeeh

    It’s terrible what happened and I agree with you completely.

    I hate it when people ask Muslims to apologize or condemn a tragedy like this. It’s not that we don’t feel grief and sympathy towrds the victims- it’s that it’s not out place to apoligize. Apologizing would imply that we have something to apologize FOR, and we don’t. Because we’re not responsible for what happened.

    I do think we should condemn such acts, however. In our day and in this country, Muslims ARE looked down upon. It’s nothing we can escape. If we don’t condemn such acts, people will assume that we support them, tarnishing the name of Islam, which is, ultimately, something we are working NOT to do. So it is in our benefit- whether it is our responsibility to do so or not- to condemn.

    And while Muslims DO get the brunt of it, other groups are attacked as well. What happens when one priest sexually molests a child? (Admittedly, it wasn’t just ONE priest, but you get my point…) Usually, the entire flock of them are looked at as child molestors and pedophiles. And the Pope is forced to condemn and condemn and condemn.

    So I suspect that, whether we like it or not, for as long as their our weak Muslims, we’ll be condemning the actions of others for a very long time. I just hope we don’ have to apologize for them.

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  16. Rasheed Gonzales

    2) the national media is going to use this issue as an excuse to launch an assault on the hijab in general and encourage people not to wear it. its going to further entrench it as a symbol of oppression.

    So far, from the reports I’ve come across and read, this generally hasn’t been the case (yet). There have been a few reports on this incident that quote some sister from a magazine (Muslim Girl) saying that many Muslim girls feel that the hijâb is very liberating.

    What worries me more is what retards like Tarek Fatah and that Ahmadî Tanya Khan was saying on City News; that hijâb is a personal choice and not an obligation–as if fulfilling an obligation itself was not a “choice”, as well as the fear-mongering that we’ve already seen regarding Muslim fundamentalists and what not. Almost every article I’ve read thus far also mentions that the family was “devout”; almost amusing that the court room sketch of the father shown on City News has him clean shaven.

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  17. Musa Maguire

    That is the way bigotry works. Only the in-group can have true individuals, and therefore individual anomolies (school shooters, mall shooters, etc.) while the out-group is judged as a monolith…the individual represents the whole. That said, if this guy did offer a demented understanding of Islam as justificaiton of his crime, we should be eager to condemn it. It is not a burden…in fact it is, dare I say, an HONOR…to stand up for the truth.

    It is also important to distinguish crimes committed by Muslims and crimes committed in the name of Islam. The latter is much more dangerous.

    Consider the recent mall shooting in Nebraska. Everyone recognized that it was committed by a troubled soul, but I haven’t seen any accounts pointing to that individual’s cultural or religious group as an accomplice in the crime.

    Now if a Muslim youth were to commit a similar act, would Mulims be judged collectively? Yes, they would, and this is bigotry. But if a Muslim youth were to do such a thing, and leave a note saying that it was jihad and he expected to die as a martyr after killing a bunch of innocent people, then it would be our responsibility to denounce his action and repudiate his twisted manipulation of religion…not in order to apologize for something we haven’t done, but in order to defend our faith.

    Ironically, it is the safety of malls (from Muslims) that many politicians are using to drum up fear and gain votes. In the Nebraska case, if this kid’s heart had been touched by Islam (or, for that matter, Christianity, Judaism, etc. ), he never would have done such a thing. The nihilism that he exhibited is very much a secular disease.

    Such is the case of a father murdering his daughter. Whatever his stated reason, this action is the work of a very sick heart. It is certainly not inspired by Islam. It is certainly not inspired by the Quran. Concerning the day when all injustice will be remedied, Allah chose to highlight the case of murdered daughters,

    “When the infant daughter, buried alive, is asked,
    For what sin was she slain?”

    Aqsa’s father will have to ponder over this question for the rest of his life, and just like the pagan Arabs who used to murder their young, he will never find a sufficient answer.

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  18. aarij

    Jazakillahi khairan sr. AnonyMouse. Very nice and timely article.

    May Allah grant sabr to the mother (imagine what she is going through!!), and may Allah guide people to Islam as a consequence of this incident (even though the kafiroon and the munafiqoon may despise that).

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  19. Dawud Israel

    Why do you even bother to react to this?

    I overheard a kaffir speaking about this and I wanted to say something but I didn’t. I’m not a stranger to dawah but I thought…

    Why should I react to this?

    If you look at it objectively, there is nothing special about this at all.

    Think of it from the perspective of a police officer who sees how many crimes a day, surely the murder of a girl over an issue of religion is more understandable than the murdering of family over money?

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  20. Reactive Dawah « MUSLIMOLOGY

    […] feel they MUST react to it. Whether it’s the Danish cartoons, a teddy bear in Sudan or the killing of a Muslim girl by her father, Muslims should NOT react. This is what I think is a trap or to those who are familiar with these […]

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  21. Umm Layth

    We need to make du’aa’ for this family. Serious, serious du’aa’. I first heard about this right when it happened when I happened to be watching CNN at my mil’s house. I knew what would happen with this story, but I honestly am willing to take on whatever is to come with it. Her life is gone. We still have our own. We can pray for her, her family, including her father (killing is evil, a big sin, and punishable indeed, but to these idol worshippers who want us to apologize, let us remind them that it isn’t worse than denying God His right of being worshipped Alone). We are still here to better our own souls.

    Let us stop getting so caught up in this drama of apologising. Just ignore it. If people ask on the streets, you can say something without it getting to you. If watching how this story is being used on tv gets to you too much, don’t watch tv. But subhanallah we have so much to be greatful for and our energy is better spent thinking about how to better our lives, improve our communities, and asking Allah to pardon this family and give them strength. la ilaha illa allah

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  22. ibnabeeomar

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/12/12/canada.headscarf.ap/index.html

    cnn has picked this up as well with some new details. they said the girl was coming to school with bruises on her arms – signs of abuse. the quote at the end i thought was more fitting to the situation:

    Shahina Siddiqui, president of the Islamic Social Services Association, also called it a domestic violence issue.

    “To say it was about her not wearing the hijab, I think that’s an oversimplification. All we’ve heard is from her peers saying that,” Siddiqui said. “Many of us who have teenagers or had teenagers know this is a very difficult time. Their hormones and emotions are raging and they are trying to assert their independence.”

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  23. Yunus Yakoub Islam

    He killed her out of misogyny and that is a femicidal prejudice that sadly unites Muslims with the rest of humanity. It’s time we started discussing it in those terms instead of pointing the finger at one group. In the meantime, let’s see if the anthropologists can come up with a label to describe the cultural factors influencing white men to kill their wives and daughters.

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  24. Umm Reem

    Among the many questions i have in mind, i wonder why didn’t she seek out help if she had truly feared for her life.
    If she was brave enough to move out of her house and stay at a friend’s house, then she could have contacted authorities too…

    In any case, what she was doing is not abnormal at all. Unfortunately there are so many girls who take off their hijabs once at school…sadly some of them are imams/da’ees daughters…however each case that i have known of, the parents are immigrants and didn’t go to school here…

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  25. Sunie Nizami

    Should we not stay silent on the details of this matter for a little while, since no official and detailed information has been released yet? I think this is mistake the media makes, and we sometimes inadvertently fall into the trap. I have to say that the people commenting on this blog have been ‘fairly’ just in this.

    JazakAllahu Khair for the blog, it does discuss some very important issues.

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  26. Suhail

    Assalam Alykum
    I think the death has more to do with Sub continent culture then anything about Islam. The boys are given all liberty to do all they can but the girls are punished for small acts of disobidience. I think muslims should step up on learning there deen before they blame this and that on everybody else.

    Jazakallah Khair
    Suhail

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  27. ibnabeeomar

    a good article:

    “The story that Aqsa Parvez’s friends are telling the media is equally unremarkable, with the exception of its terrible ending: A teenager came into conflict with her family over wanting to live by her own rules, their disputes had grown physically violent in the past, and this time her father reportedly snapped and attacked her so fiercely that he called police and told them he had killed his daughter. When we drop the adjective “Muslim” into the equation, why does this story change? How does a hijab make it a tale of cultural conflict, “igniting a public debate on religious extremism in Canada” in the words of the Globe, rather than the story of a father’s murderously violent overreaction in a dispute with his adolescent daughter? In a rare moment of clarity, La Presse’s Vincent Marissal (not available online) recognizes that the cultural controversy around the crime will unnecessarily “risk making a horrible family drama into a grave social and political crisis.” A man allegedly killed his daughter and must now face justice. That is as tragic as it is basic to this affair; no government affirmation of equal rights will prevent a crazed person from committing a horrifying act of infanticide, and whatever name or religious sanction anyone else gives to the scrap of fabric that supposedly triggered it is irrelevant.”

    http://maisonneuve.org/index.php?&page_id=12&article_id=3056

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  28. Rasheed Gonzales

    Should we not stay silent on the details of this matter for a little while, since no official and detailed information has been released yet?

    This is precisely why I refrained from commenting on the “right” and “wrong” of the situation in the piece I wrote concerning this incident on my blog. We just don’t know enough yet to justly comment on it; that includes labelling the killing a “murder”. Murder implies intent, whether premeditated or not. For all we know, and from what it looks like to me, is that this death was an accident; a domestic dispute that went too far. According to the reports, the brother (Muhammad Parvez) did call the police after committing the offense. That to me, suggests regret of some sort. The “unemotional” demeanour he’s said to have displayed at his bail hearing could easily be the result of shock.

    The family is obviously torn up about it. I ask Allah to make things easy for them, to give them patience, strength, and resolve. May He make this sad incident a cause for guidance and rectification for them and for others.

    Omar, jazakallah khairan for the link to that Maisonneuve article. Nice find.

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  29. ...

    i hear the rumors that she was pregnant…i think its about time that everyone just relaxes and stop speaking further on this topic

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  30. Nazim Mangera

    A Canadian man recently was convicted for killing a minimum of 6 women. That number could go up to as much as 26! And guess what…. He is Christian and he even quotes the Bible and he says that he was sent to the world to rid it of evil. His victims were prostitutes and drug users. But I’m sure we’ll never read about his religion in the news. You can read up on him here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton

    Imagine if that same person was a Muslim and killed all those women in the name of the Quran!

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  31. ruth nasrullah

    Asalaamu alaikum. There are some men whose nature is and always will be domineering and violent. And the challenge that poses their families is difficult and doesn’t always end well. I wrote about something similar a couple months ago.

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  32. ibnabeeomar

    the fact that stories like this pickton guy don’t get the same coverage i think is further proof of the points we are making in the islamophobia post

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  33. AnonyMouse

    I have to say, I’m quite impressed with Yahoo’s coverage! Their articles are quite unbiased, and have little to no negative slant regarding Muslims and hijaab.
    They even have a vid clip with the editor of Muslim Girl Magazine, and though she said a couple things I disagree with (hijaab not being obligatory), she emphasized that most Muslim girls DO wear it out of choice.

    Re: Pickton – actually, the Pickton case is getting HUGE coverage where I am… probably because it happend in my province. But, there’s little to no mention of religion – the overall sentiment is that he’s mentally ill.

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  34. Rasheed Gonzales

    the fact that stories like this pickton guy don’t get the same coverage i think is further proof of the points we are making in the islamophobia post

    Actually, the Picton case been in and out of the media spotlight since the guy first got arrested a year or so back. His trial has also gotten its share of media attention in recent days as the jury deliberated on the verdict (which was given just the other day).

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  35. Amad

    Rasheed:

    Actually, the Picton case been in and out of the media spotlight since the guy first got arrested a year or so back.

    Actually, you don’t get the point Br. Rasheed. The FACT is that most of us NEVER heard about Picton, but every Tom, Dick and Harry has heard about Aqsa Parvez. Do you understand the difference? It is not a question about seeing a report or two in the news, its a question of media saturation with certain stories… Picton’s story never was!

    You know that there is no benefit of taking an opposition position just because it is an opposing position. That’s the 3rd time this thread. Chill out!

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  36. Heeysan

    What about all those Church shootings we hear about so often? Why isn’t Christianity blamed for them? I mean conflicts at churches DO OCCUR due to theological differences between various Christians.

    So if Islam is to be blame, be fair and blame all other religions equally.

    As for why Islam is blamed and not others? Well Jewish Media.

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  37. Abu Bakr

    The difference here is that this Aqsa Pervez story was front and center in the local podunk newspaper of my itty bitty city here in the southeast US.

    This is even though the vast majority of Americans have no idea about anything going on in Canada. The majority would not even be able to tell you the name of the Canadian premier. I say this having just recently finished a bachelor’s degree in Political Science. I know for a fact the vast majority of my fellow Poli Sci majors wouldn’t have had a clue.

    But Aqsa Pervez is front page news.

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  38. Rasheed Gonzales

    Actually, you don’t get the point Br. Rasheed. The FACT is that most of us NEVER heard about Picton, but every Tom, Dick and Harry has heard about Aqsa Parvez. Do you understand the difference? It is not a question about seeing a report or two in the news, its a question of media saturation with certain stories… Picton’s story never was!

    You seem to assume too much, brother. I got the point just fine. The Pickton story has been all over the news here in Canada; it’s gotten much more air time here than the story about Mohammed and Aqsa Parvez.

    As for Aqsa Parvez, rahimahallah, I haven’t seen anything about her on BBC (yet) and I didn’t even know CNN had run a story on her death until their mention of it was mentioned here on this blog. In fact, I don’t think many of you non-Canadians would have even heard of the poor sister if it weren’t for the various bloggers keeping tabs on Canadian news outlets. So to say that every “Tom, Dick and Harry has heard about” her is a bit of a stretch.

    You know that there is no benefit of taking an opposition position just because it is an opposing position. That’s the 3rd time this thread. Chill out!

    Chill out? Who’s all worked up that has to chill out? Why do you assume that I mention the things that I do in order to spark debate or pick a fight, or even for the sake of being devil’s advocate? Have some husn adh-dhann, brother. We’re having a discussion here.

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  39. WestViking

    Individuals and groups of individuals spend decades creating a good reputation that can be seriously or damaged by one intemperate and illegal act. Groups can suffer ongoing damage by the actions of some of its members. A classic illustration is scandals involving the Catholic Church. The actions of some members have damaged the worldwide reputation of the Church. Islam’s reputation is not above criticism. The actions of some members have seriously damaged the reputation of Muslims worldwide.

    Catholics initially resisted and stonewalled criticisms, but ethical and honest members understood they had to face up to and deal with errant members publicly and go through the painful process of making apologies and restitution. Salvaging a reputation is a difficult and painful process.

    When some Muslim members illegally beat their wives or commit murder citing their religious beliefs as justification, Muslims as a group suffer the consequences.

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  40. fred karmally

    Hijab has nothing to do with Islam. It is from hadith/sunnah/culture of which the Quran says,

    re: hadith

    Which hadith, other than this (Quran) will they believe in?

    re: sunnah
    I swear by what you see, and what you do not see, this (Quran) is the utterance of an honorable messenger, not a poet or soothsayer. Had he uttered ANY other religious teachings and attributed them to God, we would have punished him severely

    That is why prophet Muhammad disowns his own people on the day of judgement:
    The messenger will say ‘My Lord, my own people (muslims) have deserted this Quran”

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  41. Rasheed Gonzales

    “fred karmally”, do you know what a khimâr is defined as?

    If so, please explain the following verse: «And tell the believing women to lower their sights; to preserve their genitals; to not display their adornment—except what is visible from it; to draw their khimârs over their bosoms; to not display their adornment except to their spouses or their fathers, or their spouses’ fathers or their sons or their spouses’ sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or what their right hands possess (i.e., slaves or captives), or their servants from the men [who are] not possessors of desire, or the children who have not become cognisant of women’s private parts; and to not strike their feet in order that what they hide of their adornment be known. And repent to Allah collectively, O believers, in hopes that you may be successful» (24:31).

    Keep in mind, the verse begins with a command to Prophet Muhammad telling him to command the believing women with what is mentioned in the verses.

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  42. Amad

    Fred: First of all, we don’t even know for sure that the father killed Aqsa due to the hijab issue, or if was a culmination of various issues. So, the facts are still not known completely.

    Secondly, even if he did it for hijab, that doesn’t mean the hijab is the problem. It is the father’s crooked mind that is the problem. Such actions were never and will never be permitted in Islam.

    Thirdly, the Sunnah/hadith are an integral part of Islam. In fact, the verses you mention are evidence against you, and proof of the veracity of the Sunnah. Whoever denies so, denies Islam. The consensus on this issue by scholars from a spectrum of ideologies is undeniable; despite the Quraniyoon, Submitters, Parvezis and all the wacko, pseudo-modernist sects. Besides these wackos are considered outside the fold of Islam.

    Finally, this topic is irrelevant to the discussion, and those who drag it into it, have an ulterior motive that is shameful. A girl died, so let’s exploit it. Shameful.

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  43. Amad

    As for why Islam is blamed and not others? Well Jewish Media.

    These sort of blanket statements and stereotyping makes us no different from the stereotyping about Muslims, a stereotyping that we so despise.

    The Jews are not part of a cabal that controls everything. There is no doubt that there are influential Jews in influential positions but they worked their behinds off to get there. So, Muslims too need to create opportunities to move up the food chain in all areas of influence. Of course, due to the Islamophobia and the anti-Muslim rhetoric, this is not easy (esp. to move in political or public positions), but still doable.

    I would add though, just as the Israel Lobby book has expressed, that there is a strong Israeli bias in the media and that is neither surprising nor “new news”.

    In this regard, this documentary is a must-see (many of the narrators are Jewish):

    Israel Lobby & the Media

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  44. DhulQarnain

    How come issues where Muslims are involved in ALWAYS get in the Media??
    Do they look for such things or what… ??

    I’m sick and tired of this nonsense, every time a Muslim commits an evil act, Islam is to blame!

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  45. esmat

    I m a little bit puzzled.

    Is the hejab mandatory or not?

    because – if yes, in this case was Aqsa´s father to the some extend right.
    of course, not to strangle her.

    that is a fundamental question, and it is bad that there is no consensus.

    if not, why he insisted on it?

    If yes, can a muslimah refuse to wear hejab?
    Does she not committing the murtaad by this?

    puzzled one.

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  46. awake

    esmat,

    According to the Qur’anic verse 24:31, provided above by Rasheed Gonzales, I believe it is mandatory as it was uttered as a commandment from Muhammad.

    A father has every right to discipline his children, not culminating in murder, however.

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  47. Amad

    Esmat, there is no doubt that the hijab is mandatory, FARD, obligatory. Leaving it is a sin.

    Ok, then. It is also fard, obligatory and mandatory for boys not to flirt with girls.

    It is also obligatory to pray 5 times, in fact praying 5 times is more obligatory than ANY OTHER action.

    So, a Muslim woman without hijab who prays 5 times is a far better Muslimah than a hijab-donning Muslimah who doesn’t pray 5 times.

    The point? Hijab is important. It is one thing that defines a Muslim woman’s modesty. But it is not the ultimate test of a Muslim woman’s piety and definitely not of the state of her Islam (i.e. Muslim or not).

    NO SCHOLAR has ever said that leaving hijab makes a Muslim woman leave Islam (Murtad). BUT, anyone who denies its obligation, JUST LIKE any other obligation (by saying we don’t have to do it even if Allah has obligated it), can be committing disbelief.

    As for discipline, the only disciplining by LIGHT beating I know from the Sunnah is to allow it for making children pray (for both boys and girls).

    Now, I must add that is amazingly hypocritical to talk about beating children as being something limited to Islam. Corporal punishment is something that even many Christians believe in as being an important tool for discipline. And MOST parents hit their kids in frustration, anger or whatever. It is not an anomaly. Of course, if it exceeds the minimum threshold (causing injury or worse, then it is wrong).

    So, for Muslims, not praying is worse than smoking or doing drugs… so obviously the discipline concern is greater. But the best way still is not to hit, because we do not find in the Prophet Muhammed (S)’s history that he hit a child EVER!! EVER! Yes, that’s right, he NEVER hit a child. We also don’t find that he ever hit his wife, except to slightly poke Aisha in her chest… something less than what 99.9999% of husbands have done.

    Here’s the article for disciplining children: Children Driving You Crazy? A Shaykh’s Beautiful Advice…

    Finally, in NO circumstances can the hitting be such to cause marks or serious injury, LET ALONE death, EVEN for FAR WORSE sins. So, even if the Aqsa story was about far more than just the hijab (and most parents know that it must have been), it would never be justified.

    Hope that is clear…. feel free to ask more questions if not.

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  48. AnonyMouse

    Here’s something from a post I started writing, but never finished or published:

    First of all, I cannot emphasize enough how skewed the idea of “honour killing” is. It should be called a DIShonourable killing, and furthermore, it makes absolutely no sense Islamically. In the case of Aqsa Parvez, the murder was allegedly committed due to a conflict between father and daughter over hijaab. In other publicized cases, the reasons generally had to do with a girl and a guy found talking to each other, or going out with each other. The media often tries to link these crimes to Shari’ah-prescribed punishments for those who commit adultery.

    Yet the “crime” that these women and girls are so often killed for can’t be considered crimes at all in the Shar’i sense. There is no prescribed punishment for removing the hijaab, or talking to someone of the opposite gender. The punishment for adultery can only be implemented if there were four trustworthy witnesses who actually saw the act of penetration take place. Furthermore, the Hudood punishment can only be meted out in an Islamic country once suitable measures have been taken to ensure that the crime truly did take place. Vigilante justice is NOT tolerated.

    Indeed, there is are verses from the Qur’an and a Hadith that emphasizes the sacredness of a Muslim’s life:

    “… if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.” (Qur’an 5:32)

    On the authority of Ibn Mas’ud,(radiyallahu anhu), who said: The Messenger of Allah, (sallallahu ‘alayhi wasallam), said:

    “The blood of a man (or woman) who is a Muslim is not lawful (i.e. cannot be lawfully shed), save if he belongs to one of three (classes): a married man who is an adulterer; life for a life (i.e. for murder); one who is a deserter of his religion, abandoning the community.”
    [Al-Bukhari & Muslim]

    This must be realized by the masses, because once you know this, then you know for sure that Islam does not in any way, shape, or form condone people taking others’ lives into their own hands. Islam is not responsible for people who call themselves Muslims and then break the laws of Allah. Those individuals, and they alone, are responsible for their actions.

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  49. Sequoia

    “But the best way still is not to hit, because we do not find in the Prophet Muhammed (S)’s history that he hit a child EVER!! EVER! Yes, that’s right, he NEVER hit a child”

    This I believe gets to the point of soo many problems within both Christian and Muslim communities (as well as all other communities) . And what I mean by problems is not living up to the standards of both the central figures, Muhamed and Jesus. Of course it is impossible to live up to both, so thats not the problem. But sometimes we are too quick to judge and condemn and forget that we too are not perfect. Domestic Violence and abuse of children spares no particular community and is a plague on man kind but has no roots in any religious doctrine. This does seem like an unhappy man who took out his frusteration out on someone smaller than him. He was a coward, plain and simple. And there are those that use the hijab as an another excuse to condemn Islam or to try to cover-up this man’s cowardice and paint him as a pious man. Those that harm their children (above and beyond deiscipline) are beneath contempt and should hold no privelage of having their actions equated with religious teachings.

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  50. Umm Layth

    also, something that we all lose sight of sometimes, is that any type of disciplining should be done for THE KIDS own good. So if we yelled/spanked or whatever, at them becaused WE were mad, or because WE needed a way to get our frustration out, it is wrong. We do it for Allah if we must, not for our egos.

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  51. Dave Lucas

    Keep in mind this is a single instance of a crime. Compare it with the video that pops up now and again of a stalker abducting a young woman who is later found dead. Aqsa Parvez’s death is NOT a normal “islamic event.” I remember a kid in 1st grade whose Christian mother forced him to kneel in rock salt when he was bad until his knees bled. When he was 12 she beat him so badly he lost hearing in one ear. Parents are sometimes overprotective, sometimes STUPID, like the woman who created the phony MySpace page that led to the suicide of Megan Meier. But that’s another story…

    http://dave-lucas.blogspot.com/2007/12/double-life-of-aqsa-parvez.html

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  52. fred karmally

    Amad, we are talking about whether Hijab is a requirement of Islam, not about whether it was the problem in this case.

    I have the following comments on your statement below:
    >Thirdly, the Sunnah/hadith are an integral part of Islam. In fact, the verses you mention are evidence against you, and proof of the veracity of the Sunnah. Whoever denies so, denies Islam. The consensus on this issue by scholars from a spectrum of ideologies is undeniable;<

    You are making statements, and not even saying why they are evidence against me. Then you bring in the scholars.

    It is blind obedience to scholars, instead of God, that is the cause of the problem. It is the making of arbitrary statements, as if they were fact, without giving supporting proof that is the problem.

    There is no justification in Quran for hadith and sunnah. I provided the verse. We can discuss the merits of what I provided as proof of my arguments, and we can see the merits of your argument. But if you make arbitrary statements and say that the scholars agree, rather than look at what God says, then we will not solve this issue.

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  53. fred karmally

    Rasheed, yes I do know what Khimar is. It means a cover – same word used for intoxicant that covers the mind. In this context, it is a piece of cloth, not a head cover. Quran never says to cover the head. Dictionaries written by men, biased towards head covers, have taken the generally accepted meaning of ‘head cover’.
    Yes, a woman should cover her chest. In Sudan even today, some tribal women walk around bare breasted.
    Who decides what is necessary? and what is beauty/adornment? Many people will argue that eyes are the most beautiful. Do we expect women to cover their eyes and trip and get hurt? God has left this to the individual in the context of the environment while stressing on modesty and not attracting attention. In western countries, women with hijab attract attention. In muslim countries, women without hijab attract attention. There is a great deal of flexibility in God’s religion.

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  54. Amad

    Amad, we are talking about whether Hijab is a requirement of Islam, not about whether it was the problem in this case.

    Hmm. Actually we are not. You on the other hand, are trying to stuff this down our throat. Fred, let me remind you again… we are not going to let Quraniyoon nonsense flourish here. When and if we talk about the authority of Sunnah, I am sure we can listen to your “evidences” and provide ample refutation.

    BUT, this post is not about discussing the obligation of hijab. For all practical purposes, all “mainstream” Muslims agree on its obligation. And we will not allow this post’s topic to be kidnapped by your ilk.

    Finally, whoever is making the hijab the issue here has the same agenda as the loon Tarek Fatah, and Anonymouse has already addressed it.

    P.S. Future comments along the line of “hijab’s obligation” will likely be moderated.

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  55. ibnabeeomar

    “Quran never says to cover the head. Dictionaries written by men, biased towards head covers, have taken the generally accepted meaning of ‘head cover’.”

    and

    “It is blind obedience to scholars, instead of God, that is the cause of the problem. It is the making of arbitrary statements, as if they were fact, without giving supporting proof that is the problem.”

    sound quite strange and somewhat comical coming from the same person

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  56. Umm Reem

    There is no justification in Quran for hadith and sunnah.

    “And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it)…” (59:7)

    ” Whoever obeys the Messenger verily obeys Allah…” (4:80)

    I believe there are more then 50 verses in the Qur’an commanding believers to obey the Prophet, sallallahu alaihi wasalam.

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  57. miss.abbas

    I’m not going to state whether or not hiijab is an obligation or not, but simply let’s remember what hijab stands for which is decency. And you can still be a decently dressed muslim girl without the hijab. However, it is important to understand that the hijab is not just a peice of cloth. It has no value if you just wear it for the heck of it. What I’m trying to say is that you can’t wear the hijab with tight jeans on hugging your butt and and your thighs and wearing a t-shirt that has a very low neck. This defeats the purpose of wearing the hijab in the first place.

    Asides from the concept of hijab and we should also look at the history of hijab and the importance it played in the Family of the Prophet. I’m sure everyone has heard of the Tragedy of Kerbala.

    So just make sure guys, if you see a muslimah who wears hijab or you yourself wears a hijab make sure wear it properly. Don’t abuse the purpose of hijab.

    FiamAllah

    <3

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  58. Amad

    It has no value if you just wear it for the heck of it. What I’m trying to say is that you can’t wear the hijab with tight jeans on hugging your butt and and your thighs and wearing a t-shirt that has a very low neck

    Thanks for bringing that up. Hijab is not just the scarf, it is the total dress. However, if someone is trying, then we should encourage the sister, even if she hasn’t found loser jeans :)

    I am not sure what the tragedy of kerbala has to do with hijab??

    Finally, no need to be shy about stating that the hijab is fard or not. IT IS. And that is the consensus of all the sunni madahibs and even the shia. It is only the progressives who have found something in Islam that no Muslim scholar found in 1400 years, and so they can be simply ignored.

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  59. Rasheed Gonzales

    Rasheed, yes I do know what Khimar is. It means a cover – same word used for intoxicant that covers the mind. In this context, it is a piece of cloth, not a head cover. Quran never says to cover the head. Dictionaries written by men, biased towards head covers, have taken the generally accepted meaning of ‘head cover’.

    That’s quite comical.

    Btw, the word for intoxicant/alcohol is khamr (خَمْر). It has the same root word as khimâr (خِمَار), but they’re not the same word.

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  60. aarij

    buahaha, next thing on the proggie agenda (after the no-obligation-hijab):

    1. stoning
    2. plural marriage
    3. everyone’s going to jannah regardless of being muslim or not

    then we’ll have an acceptable version of Islam! yayy!

    Back to the main story, the sister’s janaza is at the ISNA Masjid in Mississauga on Dec. 15, 2007 (today). I don’t know the timing, but most janazas at ISNA are done after dhuhr so I’m assuming its after dhuhr.

    Remember the Code 4 (fasting, follow a funeral, feeding the needy, visiting the sick):

    Abu Huraira narrates that the Prophet (saaws) said: “Who began this day fasting?” Abu Bakr said: “I did.” The Prophet (saaws) said: “Who participated in a funeral procession today?” Abu Bakr said: “I did.” The Prophet (saaws) said: “Who fed a needy person today?” Abu Bakr said: “I did.” The Prophet (saaws) said: “Who visited a sick person today?” Abu Bakr said: “I did.” Then, the Prophet (saaws) said: “These things cannot all meet in a single person but that they will enter Paradise.”

    [Sahih Muslim]

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  61. Nina

    I simply want to have a say here… I am not Muslim, and know little of Muslim culture or religion. I am a Canadaian living in Canada.

    I feel the father of this poor girl should be charge and conviceted for murder, and should be left in jail, with his eldest son also involved in the murder, to consider their actions. They may be Muslim, however living in Canada are “CANADIAN MUSLIMS” and first and foremost should respect and abide by the laws of the country they live in.

    In Canada, no child, male or female is forced to wear any article of clothing.
    In Canada, parents are not allowed to kill their children.
    In Canada we do not believe in Honour Killing – it’s illegal just like any other murder.

    Muslims certainly have had a great deal of ‘bad press’ and obvously this will spiral into just the thinking you wish to avoid.

    As a Canadain, I sure hope the Muslims living and working around me are good, kind and caring people both inside and outside of their own private homes.

    This is a terrible loss to the world, perhaps this child could have grown to be a great leader here in Canada, one who brought into light the positives about the Muslim culture and religion – too bad her father snatched that chance from her.

    As a Canadian, I will be sadly disappointed and very sickened if this man gets away with taking the life of his child. There should be no special consideration of religion or honour – murder is murder, and he should suffer the consequences of acting AS God and taking a life.

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  62. Sequoia

    Nina,

    I don’t think anyone here was arguing in defence of his actions or even for leniancy. The “controversy” with this incident is media’s focus on the hijab. Obviously, news almost always prefers a sensational story and here you have one with Muslims supposedly vs Candian traditions. But therein lies the problems. If you constantly only search for Muslims who do bad things, you will find them (coz there is bad things in every community). The problem many people have here, is the continual equating of Islam with oppresion or violence. Violence against children is very common everywhere, tragically. The issue wasn’t that this man should be excused coz he was Muslim, the issue was that this should be reported as another tragic abusive father. Amad, before refered to the point that Muhammed never hit his children or wives. Now, shouldn’t that be cited in articles or at least offered so the reader gains this information. This I believe is a very important aspect of this story that gets ignored. Many critics of Muslims will cite the Quran out of context when it suits there needs. But here is an issue when supposedly this Muslim man kills his daughter beacuse of his ideaology and she hurt his honor and the honor of his family. but as Mouse and other have stated, there is nothing in the Qu’ran or Muhamed’s daily life that would support this action. So if this is the case, then isn’t the newspaper being negilgent in leading many of its readers to the conclusion that Muslim ideology supports this killing?

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  63. Sequoia

    One more quick thing Nina…

    I don’t believe any group should be above and beyond criticism. My issue is with the accuracy of the report and how I believe there is an unfair abundance of negative articles written about Muslims without much context.

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  64. Troy

    My god people take the blinkers of. Of course the majority of muslims in Canada are moderate; that doesn’t mean their isn’t a problem with people who interpret the Koran in a fundamentalist way.

    To the people who claim that no girls or woman are told they have to wear a hijab or they will bring shame to their family how do you explain all the clerics who preach the exact opposite.

    Here’s a nice little clip of a Saudi female broadcaster defending her right to appear on TV. You can clearly see and hear the cleric with his fundamentalist views say that all religious scholars agree that woman must cover themselves.
    liveleak dot com/view?i=316_1177050269

    replace dot with .

    I’m not sure if some of you are willfully blind to the extreme interpretations of Islam that are on display daily around the world and within or are just ignorant to what is going on around you.

    Kind of like an ostrich with it’s

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  65. ibnabeeomar

    sequoia – great comments.

    troy – they’re probably about as extreme as the christians or jews who used to say the same thing.

    ever seen a nun’s outfit?

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  66. Rasheed Gonzales

    I feel the father of this poor girl should be charge and conviceted for murder, and should be left in jail, with his eldest son also involved in the murder, to consider their actions.

    The father will be charged with murder. The only question is if it’s going to be first-degree or second-degree, and his lawyer has already stated, as reported in the media, that he will most likely be charged with second-degree murder. Whether he is guilty or not is another question. What I mean by that is the charge of murder vs. a lesser charge like manslaughter, which from what’s being mentioned in the media thus far, is what I think the most appropriate charge would be.

    The son has already been granted bail, and from the looks of things is being charged with obstruction of justice. Judicial punihsments aside, I think the loss of a daughter/sister is already a substantial punishment that the two of them, as well as the rest of their family is going to have to endure.

    With almost nothing being released with respect to the evidences against the two (i.e., Muhammad and Waqas Parvez), I think some of us are jumping the gun a bit in assuming guilt and calling for the strictest of punishments to be handed to them. I’m pretty sure that if the two were not Muslims, we wouldn’t be seeing the same the assumptions being made and the same calls for the strictest punishments possible.

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  67. Rita Butt

    Aqsa misery has ended and her father’s punishment has begun. Where was the mother, why did she not help her daughter. Now Aqsa will not have to deal with her family’s guilt. I know I am dealing with my family’s guilt for condeming me for their honor. Today I am completely alone with wasted youth, because I was made to listen to my parents and family for the sake of family honour. I have frequently wished that my parents had killed me. I did nothing wrong. May Aqsa’s saul rest in peace. I saved my family’s honour when I was her age.

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  68. thmina

    People want something to talk about .Nobody actualy not knows what happen.Islam is a relgion of peace .Evry body knows and realizes it but dont follow .

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  69. AnonyMouse

    “Where was the mother, why did she not help her daughter.”

    Easier said than done.
    As anyone who has done research into domestic violence knows, it is a deeply sensitive issue and can’t be looked at from a black and white angle…
    No doubt it was (and is) extremely difficult for the mother, and we can only pray that Allah grants the family ease and patience in this time of fitnah.

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  70. Troy

    Guess that clerics quote didn’t jive with the whole this isn’t part of Islam head in sand mentality so you deleted it.

    So I ask again ibnabeeomar; Show me one preacher who implores the men of his congregation to beat their daughters for not dressing like a nun. It was your comparison not mine

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  71. Amad

    Troy, why would Christian preachers (good or crazy) urge the beating of their children for doing something that is not in the religion like hijab for Christians?

    But there are plenty of priests and rabbis who urge a lot of bad things that they believe ARE in the religion. Heard of the congregation and ministers who protest at funerals of soldiers?

    And the “great” (still great for many extremist Israelis, esp. the “settlers” i.e. occupiers) Rabbi Meir Kahane, who actively promoted the need and inevitabality for a genocide to wipe out Muslims? Even the most crazy of the Muslim extremists hasn’t called out for such a blanket mass-murder.

    The point? Honor-killings happen. Rarely in the East (a few Arab countries), hardly ever in the West. There is no backing or evidence from Islam… its a cultural “disease”. In fact, according to
    this article
    ,

    Honor killings are not committed by Arab Muslims alone. Arab Christians are a small minority today in places like Egypt, Jordan, and the Palestinian territories, but they account for a proportionate share of those killings, experts say.

    So, kooks come in all sizes and from all religions… some of them make into the clergy world and then they continue to express their kookisms to their congregation! But usually it is culture, not a sense of religiosity, that drives the people to act upon the Islamically dishonorable action of “honor killings”.

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  72. Amad

    Rita, you said:
    “I know I am dealing with my family’s guilt for condeming me for their honor. ”

    I didn’t quite understand the statement. Pls expound for us, and tell us if and how we can help you.

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  73. djk

    First of all, she wasn’t killed for merely removing her hijab. She was killed because she refused to submit to her father’s will, repeatedly. She was obviously intimidated by her abusive father who was forcing her to comply with Islamic customs. That’s why she took it off when pops was not around.

    And it was nice that Imams focused more on the importance of the hijab than on Axa’s death. Even trying to smear her after her death.

    Classy.

    I want to know why, when an “honour killing” happens amongst the Sikh community (and it’s happened, more than once, where a girl was killed by her father or another male relative because they found out she had a secret boyfriend or something), it never gets so blown out of proportion as it is when Muslims are involved.

    There’s no such thing as blowing an honor killing out of proportion, no matter who the murderer is.

    Those “Judeo-Christian” values, based on the Ten Commandments, that I’m constantly told Canada was founded upon – guess what? Muslims believe in each and every one of the Ten Commandments too. Food for thought, eh?

    Who cares? I’m neither Jewish nor Christian. If a Christian father killed his daughter while beating her for being un-Christian, it would be just as horrible as Parvez beating his daughter to death for being un-Islamic.

    How many Muslim women who are reading this blog really can’t fathom why Aqsa was terrified to go home after refusing to submit to Islamic customs?

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  74. Ghurabaa

    Never in the history of Ummah a woman got killed over Hijab. I’m sure there is more to it.

    And Allaah knows best.

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  75. AnonyMouse

    How many times must it be said that this is NOT about Islam and Islamic practices? That this is about CULTURE, and personal family problems?
    It must be noted that even IF (huge ‘if’) this was about Islam and not fulfilling Islamic practices, then abuse and murder is NOT how you deal with it.

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  76. Rasheed Gonzales

    Unfortunately, I think no matter how much you reiterate these things, guys like DJK who’ve seemingly already made up their minds about the issue due to their prejudice against Islam, will continue to turn a deaf ear to the truth.

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  77. djk

    The practice of slavery in America wasn’t at all about racism, you know.

    It was about culture, that’s all.

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  78. djk

    Never in the history of Ummah a woman got killed over Hijab. I’m sure there is more to it.
    By: Ghurabaa

    Allah may know best, but clearly you need to read up on what your fellow Muslims have been up to:

    Militias murder ‘un-Islamic’ women

    There have been 48 women killed in six months for “un-Islamic behaviour”. The murders in the teeming southern port of Basra have highlighted the weakness of the security forces and the strength of Islamic militias as Britain prepares to hand over control to Iraqi officials today.

    In another case, two teenagers saw a woman beaten to death by five or six men from the Mahdi Army, Basra’s most powerful militia. One picked up a rock and crushed her skull. The teenagers were told that their home and family would be destroyed if they betrayed the killers.

    But hey, I guess that had nothing to do with Islam either! Right?

    Ignorance is bliss, in land of denialists.

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  79. Amad

    Actually djk, for many, the slavery was all about religion. That Christianity in fact was a white man’s religion and was used extensively to oppress the black race.

    So, should we blame Christianity or the American culture which misused it for 100s of years?

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  80. Amad

    Amazing djk that have the gall to bring Iraq into this. Nothing in Iraq is normal. If you want to talk about the 48 who have died for “unislamic” practices (uncorroborated of course), then let’s talk about the 100s of thousands innocents killed in the name of what religion? Why don’t you stand up and shout about the terrorism inflicted by states that has killed far more innocent civilians that any religious prescription.

    But you won’t. Your mind has been enslaved by islamophobia. All you see is Muslim blood when Muslims are responsible (which no doubt does happen) but you don’t see far more Muslim blood when Muslims are not responsible.

    I think your trolling for reaction is familiar and I think we’ll just keep going in circles. You will keep bringing all sorts of variants and stories plucked out of different situations in order to make your point. And we’ll keep telling you that for every story that you bring up, there are examples from other religions. Why are more Muslims engaged in extremism? Because more Muslims are being persecuted than any other people. And persecution and injustice will always lead to a reaction that is sometimes equally unjust. When our nation stops supporting dictators (Uzbekistan for instance), stops supporting state-terrorism in Israel, stands up against Russia for human rights in Chechnya, against India for human rights in Kashmir… I am sure then the warped message of the extremists will be less attractive, and the moderates will have a chance to stamp them out.

    Interesting, how you completely ignored my comment on the priests and rabbis engaging in bigotry… no comment on Rabbi Meir Kahane’s call for Muslim genocide?? No comment on why ministers would urge people to protest against civilians, or in the case of Warren Jeffs, cause them to engage in limitless polygamy? Typical response when islamophobes are owned.

    I think we are done with you.

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  81. djk

    So, should we blame Christianity or the American culture which misused it for 100s of years?

    BINGO! We should blame the American culture!

    Today people are free to fly the flag of the old South, and those that do tell us a lot about themselves, if you want to separate yourselves from the bigots, then you’ll have to change the gender-dichotamy that is found in Islamic teachings.

    It’s not a hopeless task, the US did it.

    Amazing djk that have the gall to bring Iraq into this.

    Someone claimed that “Never in the history of Ummah a woman got killed over Hijab.”

    I called B.S. it’s as simple as that, it’s not a matter of “owning” anyone, it’s not like I’m here to derail. But when someone says something that patently absurd, there’s no harm in proving the contrary.

    (Anyway, I could have also brought up the case of the SA girls who were forced to stay in the burning school because they did not have on the proper attire.)

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  82. Umm Reem

    TROY:
    what anyone preaches about Islam, may not be a part of Islam. Why don’t you look through the whole Qur’an, and you will not find ONE punishment prescribed for any woman who doesn’t cover her head, unlike Bible that has a punishment prescribed for woman not covering…

    “But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. (1 Corinthians 11:3-10 NAS)”

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  83. Suhail

    These guys are trolls and should be avoided. The typical habit of trolls are
    1) They never answer questions posed to them.
    2) They will just insult people on the forum or there religion without any evidence.
    3) When they dont have any answer they will just repeat the same thing again and again.

    So brothers and sisters better ignore troy and djk

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  84. mick

    Why can you not live in Muslim countries? The West does not accept the Hijab or the subjugation or circumcision of women. The West does not want this way of life. Is it sdo hard for you to understand? If this way of life is so important for you or your brothers and sisters why do you not live in Iran or Soamlia or Saudi Arabia?
    Why do you come to Canada or the US or France or Germany? Why? Live where you are free to do as you please in a Muslim world. It seems so simple.

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  85. Amad

    Mick, I took out your comment out of the spam/trash box, just for its amusement value.

    So, when you and all the “Europeans” (assuming you are Caucasian) decide to go back to Europe and return this land to the Native Indians that your ancestors stole it from… we’ll gladly follow you to our native countries as well. Until then, unfortunately for islamophobes like you and your ilk… we are here to stay. Not ONLY stay, but THRIVE. And yes, to have lots of children. Add that to the growing number of converts, we will continue to be fastest religion in North America inshallah. And in 50 years or so, we’ll probably still be a minority, but a very sizable one inshallah. Not to forget that we’ll probably have representation in the Judicial, Legislative, and probably in the Executive branch too.

    Does that scare you Mick? Will you be able to sleep at night now?

    Well, sorry. Have your doctor order you some ambien, because the “Muslim problem” (for the Islamophobes) is here to stay. OR, alternatively, you could embrace the Muslim immigrants and converts. Either way, you can’t do anything about it. It will be whatever the Almightly plans. Look out for the nearest Muslim coming to your neighborhood (moving in your subdivision, joining you at work, of course if you actually have a life which for people like you is usually not given).

    :) :)

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  86. Abu Bakr

    @Mick,

    Given that Pakistan is becoming sort of a 51st state, seems like a moot point.

    Actually, come to think of it, it’s more like Peurto Rico, but without the perks.

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  87. Faiez

    Asalaamu alaikum

    The bigot formerly known as Michael Savage had a substitute on his show today and he mentioned this article and took things out of context.

    He was saying you should condemn what happens or else you support it.

    He, by far, has the dumbest radioshow in this country.

    Asalaamu alaikum

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  88. Khadija

    I think the discussion of whether hijab is obligatory or not needs to go fast. This is not the point. A girl died and she didn’t need to.
    This family was obviously dysfunctional already. It must have been a bunch of things having to do with his daughter’s rebellion in general. And in these cases, parents need to ask themselves what they are doing wrong. This is so sad.
    If this is about hijab, which we’re still not sure about, then that will make this a true tragedy.
    Then we will need to think about our priorities with our kids. Was Aqsa Pavez being taught anything about Islam while her dad wanted her to wear the hijab? How much did she know about Islam in the first place? We don’t know. We all do know however, that you can’t wait until puberty to introduce Islam to your kids!!

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  89. Faraz

    If this is about hijab, which we’re still not sure about, then that will make this a true tragedy.

    I think this is a true tragedy whether or not it had anything to do with hijab. Just like any other murder that takes place in our society.

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  90. Shrinklady2004

    WOW, Talk about having your heads stuck in the snow!!

    Exactly what do women do when they don’t to wear hijaab and their familes force them? Do they go to the mosque for help? Is there a group like CAIR or ISNA that protects young girls who want to wear hijaab but can’t? I doubt it.

    There is a desperate attempt in your voices to say this has nothing to do with Islam. However, you write here stating that “hijaab” is required by women. I have seen articles, websites and statements that go so far to suggest that women who don’t cover are less Muslim than those who don’t. Also, they say, if a woman wants to commit to Islam, her headscarf is necessary. I have read that if a woman does not cover, she cannot define herself as a Muslim. WOW.

    I read the so called “talk” given by the Imam for the young girl’s funeral and he emphasized the importance of covering and the suggestion that she brought this death on herself. The ISNA Imams in the press conference were the same “compassionate lot” who said parents have a duty to make sure their daughters cover and if they don’t they have failed. Talk about pressure on a family! Did these guys even give a toss? I doubt it; I have not heard a word of compassion written on their behalf.

    So let me ask you this, if Islam has nothing to do with this – what does? In other countries there are Imams and religious leaders who would support this act. You are in Canada; Islam and Muslims are in a minority, so you will say what is politically correct here towards your critics – the people watching you. However, behind closed doors who knows what you will say? Deep in your hearts what would you do if your own sister or daughter decided not to wear hijaab. Beat her or brain wash her into submission? Some guy writes that it’s OK to “beat” your child per Islam. I have read Muslims and Imams say it’s OK to beat your wife. Is there anything written to beat up a man who abuses a woman? Shock, horrors if there would be!

    Rather than see the girl as a victim, you lot are lamenting on how you guys have suddenly become victims. Why personalize this issue or feel the need to defend unless you feel guilty. You blame Tarek F. article for bad publicity rather than anything the Imams have said, the actions of your community or the father! Mr. Fateh is only writing what you guys are doing! Stop doing it and people will have nothing to write about!! Its quite evident – Tarek F. is airing your dirty laundry in public and you guys have to do damage control.

    The fact that this girl actually tried to seek help from a member of a Muslim Community Center only to find that person taking the side of the father, shows Muslim girls have no support.

    I also saw the video that Troy presented of the Imam telling the woman she must cover her face. So to pretend that Islam does not require it and that a Muslim society cannot pressure women to do because it’s against Islamic law is ridiculous. Saudi, Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood – it’s all the same – stop pretending and call a spade a spade.

    By the way I am not a Christian just in case you were wondering, and yes I have read about Islam, and I know some wonderful Muslims who are religious and pious (but wouldn’t be because they don’t wear hijaab or have bread), so guys give the world a break you’re only fooling yourselves.

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  91. ...

    UPDATESSSSS!!

    http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=169790

    SubhanAllah there is always more to story then what meets the eyes..i assume it was never about Hijab rather her wanting to move out and live independently…but we still dont know anything 4 sure..all the rumors should be ignored until somebody from her family decided to speak-up..

    How come media ignored the fact that she wasnt being accepted when she wore Hijab? She didnt fit in? She was being picked onn?Talk about yellow journalism @ its best.

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  92. Amad

    Thanks for the tip “…” (could you come up with another anonymous name? :) )

    So interesting bits in this article. Especially coming from the family whose home Aqsa had fled to and lived for several days (it seems) before the murder:

    The rebellious teenager did not see eye to eye with her parents, so she moved in with a Mississauga family, and last Sunday happily took part in a birthday celebration for the youngest of six Tahir daughters.

    Mr. Parvez [the father] appeared to be relieved that his daughter was safe, said Ms. Tahir, and not alone on the street.

    Aqsa did not have a boyfriend, said Ms. Tahir, who expressed dismay at the “rumours” in the press, including speculation that it was conflict over wearing the hijab that triggered the alleged murder.

    The Tahirs did not know of any dispute over Aqsa wearing a hijab and said that the older Parvez sisters did not always wear the head scarf.

    Amal Tahir said Aqsa still periodically wore the hijab, and sometimes other students picked on her.

    Aqsa sparred with her father about skipping classes, admitted Amal, but she never thought the girl feared Mr. Parvez.

    And they mention another case that I never heard of (of course not, there were no Muslims involved): Rajinder Singh Atwal stabbed his 17-year-old daughter, Amandeep, 17 times after he discovered she was dating a boy he disapproved of.

    SO, my dear islamophobes, what is it now since it doesn’t seem its the hijab?

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  93. Amad

    jazakillahkhair sister Hidaya… much better… its quite easy to miss those “…” :)

    Someone just called me and confirmed that this article was indeed mentioned in the Savage radio show last night and anonymouse’s pseudonym. Apparently, the radio host’s point was that Muslims have to keep defending everything… so I think we need to get t-shirts made saying:

    “We condemn every evil committed in the name of Islam- past, present and future.” and require every Muslim to wear it… ;)

    Regardless of how this article was used, its pretty cool that the word is getting out on MM and its posts… for every savage (pun-intended) who finds it, there will be open-minded, fair individuals who also read this. The more we can get viewpoints from “ordinary Muslims” like us out there, the more we can block out the “make-believe-Muslim-opinion-maker” trash like Tarek Fatah.

    Which reminds me, I really want to write something about “Why Fatah, Manji, Abu-Fadl, fill-in-the-blanks DO NOT REPRESENT ME”…. I mean how dare the media CHOOSE our spokespersons?? Would they choose someone from the Jehovah Witness to represent the opinions of the majority of Christians? Or choose a Mormon? Or choose a leftist, pro-choice, homosexual to represent the Christian opinion on ANYTHING? I don’t think so. Then, why does the media think that it has the right to choose people who do not belong to any mainstream sect, who do not represent 75%+ of mainstream opinion, to speak on behalf of the majority?

    Good journalists would not use fringe opinions to express mainstream anything, and definitely not impose the figures they “like” as spokespersons for the majority that doesn’t like these figures.

    Anyway, another post for another day. I can’t stand Tarek Fatah– he just crawls under my skin. And btw, anyone who is promoting him or his ilk is in the same league of the clown. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

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  94. AnonyMouse

    “this article was indeed mentioned in the Savage radio show last night and anonymouse’s pseudonym.”

    Hahaha, we’re famous! Hmmmmm, should I hope that the fortune will come soon after? :p

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  95. openminded

    I think its very sad that you said very few words about this poor girl and about the crime committed against her. Instead you used it as a platform to talk about how your religion is repressed… to bad for you, but worse for Aqsa Parvez.

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  96. Sequoia

    Openminded,

    Did you not read Amad’s last post? I believe Muslim Matters is goint to print up T-shirts that will be availible to every Muslim that will make it obvious to “open-minded” individuals like yourselves, that the Muslims who post here take responsilbility for every single bad thing that happens by a Muslim. (sarcasm off).

    Ok, first…. did you not read where it was repeatedly said this was tragic? Did you also not read how there is nothing in the Qu’ran that justifies or hints at this sort of action? Not only that but this was also in complete contradiction to Muhamed’s life. The purpose of this post, was to express dissapointment how the muslim religion is always being connected with every bad thing every muslim does. The point is that domestic abuse happens everywhere (very, very tragic). And domestic abuse very rarely is because of one incident (woman not having supper ready, flirting with another man, wearing or not wearing a hijab). People who abuse their children have many issues to deal with and it is intellectually dishonest and a complete oversimplification, to say the hijab or the family’s honor was the reason for this tragedy.

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  97. awake

    Unfortunately, with all the refutations by Muslims here on this blog, who state loud and clear that there is no justification in the Islamic texts for this father’s murderous actions, to which I agree with as well, the hijab is mandatory per the Qur’an 24:31.

    No sane person would reduce this abhorrent act a girl being killed by Islam, but the question of whether this act has any correlation to Islam or the Islamic community is a valid question.

    What is also unfortunate, is that this father is far from alone in his thinking, that this act was justifiable in the name of Islam, as is provided in the link below.

    http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/?id=1.0.1687095144

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  98. Sequoia

    Awake,

    I believe most do view the hijab as mandatory (i say most because to be honest i am by no means an expert on Islamic doctrine, so I defer this to others on the site who have much more knowledge). Praying five times a day is also mandatory. And drinking of alchol is forbiden also. In the United States, it is mandatory to pay your full taxs. But this does not mean that a failure to do so should justify a death sentence. In every religion we have rules or commandments which is “mandatory” to obey. I would venture to say most of us break rules or don’t do everything we can to follow ALL the rules ALL the time. So just beacuse a muslim woman doesn’t wear a hijab that is considered manadory, doesn’t mean that the Muslim community supports fathers killing their daughters. Not every Muslim follows and obeys every rule or mandatory command in the Qu’ran. Just like all of us don’t obey all the rules and laws of our societies. It is near impossible, no matter how hard we try. So again, the issue isn’t whether the hijab is mandatory or whether a few clerics say crazy things. Let me give you an example, Pat Robertson said we deserved Katrina (i think it was Katrina…but maybe some other disaster), becasue of our immorality and legalized abortion. So think how you could twist this and say “Leading christian thinks poor should die beacuse of thier immorality”. Is that an accurate view of Christian doctrine? There are people in all of our religions who do wrong and terrible things. Andrew sullivan quoted a a nun, Sister Wendy earlier this month,

    “How do you balance what you believe with what you have sworn to uphold?

    I believe in loyalty. We should respect our church, but never believe that the church has the last word. The church is saying “this”, but I believe that sooner or later “this” will change. “This” is not the mind of our Lord. God is all love. It’s a delicate balancing thing. The Church has changed its position over the years, and because the spirit is with the Church, in the end the Church will always get it right. But in the end. The spirit of the Church is the meaning of love, which hasn’t yet, perhaps, been fully understood”

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/12/the-wisdom-of-s.html

    Now this quote was actually about “gay marriage”, but to me it is about more than that. Our priests, sheiks, imams can sometimes be wrong no matter how good their intentions because they are human. So if these knowledgeable people who have spent their lifetime studying theology can be wrong, imagine the rest of us. Just because I feel some wars are justified, that doesn’t mean God or Jesus did. Just because a man kills a woman for not wearing a hijab, this also doesn’t mean Allah or Muhamed would have justified this. We get many things wrong in our daily lives. But this doesn’t mean that a certian religion or country or race is wrong. It just means we have to do our best to make things better and eventually truth and decency wins out.

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  99. Amad

    “Awake”, so I don’t think the obligation of hijab is questionable in mainstream Islam. So, it is mandatory. I have already discussed this in my comment HERE

    Read that comment again.

    Now just because something is obligatory does not mean that it has be to enforced in a vigilante way. Just like prayers are much more obligatory than anything else, yet even then you can’t murder who doesn’t pray.

    As for the Iranian kook who you quoted, for every wacko statement you find from a few “clerics” out of 1.2+ billion Muslims, I can give you worse statements by clerics of other religions. How about this statement by a Jewish cleric, that called for wiping out the entire Muslim population for no other reason except that we are Muslims:

    Call of Meir Kahane

    Unfortunately, we cannot prevent every strange/weird statement or opinion, but as you see in the story, there was no Quranic or Hadith evidence given by the cleric in question… just a statement (as reported). Furthermore, I challenge you or any other detractors to find ONE SINGLE AUTHENTICALLY reported incident from the Prophet (S)’s lifetime or the rightly-guided caliphs where a woman was killed for not observing hijab. Go ahead… the race is on. And let me tell you that you will NOT find even a SINGLE incident. What more than this as proof in the pudding that it is NOT Islam but misinterpretation of Islam or flat-out cultural Islam that leads to such honor-killings (an oxymoronic word if there ever was).

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  100. Ahmad AlFarsi

    oh yeah… in case my previous comment might be misleading to any non-Muslims reading this blog… I was exonerating myself (a Sunni Iranian), from any affiliation with said kook, above.

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  101. awake

    Sequoia,

    Although I am not a Muslim, I hear you sister.

    Your intentions I do not question. However, the face of Islam is under major scrutiny, somewhat justified, and this is serious business.

    I would hate to see all Muslims get lumped in with people like the Iranian scholar linked above. Unfortunately, I feel this end is more than likely in the West.

    I for one, do not want to see that, but I also refuse to give the Islamists, like our Iranian Imam or anyone who agrees with him, a free pass

    Amad,

    There is no reason to challenge me to anything. I am simply the messenger, pointing out possible motives and a correlation to Islamic doctrinization that caused the lunatic father’s actions. Accusing me does not bring this girl back nor does it solve any problem within the Islamic community.

    My comments were specifically clear on this issue. I have done a fair amount of research into Islam and I believe I specifically made the statement that even though the hijab is mandated by the Qur’an, which I certainly did, the father’s reaction, was certainly not sanctioned by the Qur’an or Islam.

    The link is reality. Deal with that, not with me simply pointing it out.

    Ahmad AlFarsi,

    Cute response, but I personally feel it does nothing to blunt this tragedy, nor does it justify Sunni superiority over Shi’ites. That historical rift should not be glorified. It does enough damage to the Islamic community as a whole as it is.

    Solutions, not clever rhetoric, is what is desperately called for.

    Regards all,

    awake

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  102. awake

    Amad,

    There is no reason to challenge me to anything. I have made my opinion clear from my previous posts.

    Don’t blame me for the cleric’s words, for they are his, not mine. It was merely put forth as a possible example of where people like this particular father, got his heinous inspiration from.

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  103. openminded

    I stand by my previous post. Very little was said about the tragedy, and much was said about repression of muslims. Every religion has kooks, and fanatics and those who misinterpret the very book they claim to live their lives by. Not all christians like or believe in Pat Robertson, Jimmy Baker or Jimmy Swaggert. Most true Wiccians can’t stand people who claim to practice while also dressing in all black with goth make up, or running around calling themselves vampires. I agree with, “awake”, the situation calls for solutions not complaints about society. No one expects anyone who reads or writes on this site to “take responsibilty,” for actions or beliefs of anyone but themselves. While I am not Muslim, the people I work for are. They are very respectful and honorable people who would never resort to violence. However, I have seen first hand horrid treatment of women by Muslim men. I have also seen it by Christians, Buddists, and Pagans. As I said before all religions are gulity of people who would twist religious words to suit their own behavior.

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  104. Ahmad AlFarsi

    awake,

    Given the above Iranian imam did indeed say what the article claimed (in the context the article made it to appear), it is not really fair to associate his comments with any particular Islamic ideology.

    Notwithstanding my cutesy rhetoric above, there is no basis for his statement in ANY interpretation or sect of Islam… be that Sunni or Shia, conservative or liberal, what have you. His statement was that of a deranged criminal’s, and he happens to be an Imam, but that doesn’t mean that he is speaking with any actual authority whatsoever.

    It is not fair to label him an ‘Islamist.’ As I understand, the made up word, by non-Muslims, called ‘Islamism’, refers to the idea that Islamic Law must be the governing law of the land, that Muslims should seek to implement that… i.e. that the government should be defined according to Islam. If I am correct in what non-Muslims mean by using this word (Islamism), then, people should know that it is a central tenet of Islam that the Muslim leader should govern according to the Shari’ah. i.e. Islamism, as defined above, is the common belief of nearly all Muslims (or I should say, practicing Muslims).

    that being said, you might be able to find one wacky Imam (or even multiple ones) who say something like this Imam said (that non-hijabis should be killed)… but their sayings are out of ignorance of Islam… even out of ignorance of their own sect of Islam… now, hear me loud and clear… you will not find a SINGLE sect of Islam that advocates that a woman should be killed for not wearing hijab.

    Here is an extremely simplistic proof: the punishment, mentioned in the Qur’an, for an unmarried fornicator (male or female), against whom 4 witnesses can bear testimony to the act of fornication, is for the fornicator to receive 100 lashes. Of course, this can only be done by the Islamic State, not by any vigilante.

    Now let us examine the above ruling… what is more severe, fornication or not wearing hijab? Clearly, fornication is… for a woman to commit fornication, she (most likely) cannot be wearing hijab anyways… and to have done this act in front of 4 witnesses is extremely lewd. So then, if the punishment for the unmarried fornicator (by an Islamic state) is not death, and this entails not wearing hijab… then HOW can the punishment for not wearing hijab be anything like that at all?!?!?!

    Case in point… not a SINGLE sect in Islam would agree with this Iranian imam. He might be speaking politics, or out of ignorance… but he is not speaking out of knowledge… period!

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  105. Nida

    This was a cruel murder done by a man who was too strict on his daughter. I wouldn’t exactly agree with her taking off her hijab, but I do agree that her father went overboard. It brings tears to my eyes to just read the story and the actions of Aqsa’s brothers to try and keep their father out of jail. It is sick and disgusting. This man will not be able to look at himself anymore, nor show his face to others. He will be hated by everyone, and so will Aqsa’s brothers. And I think that’s a good thing. Her “father”, as he called himself, but I believe that that is a lie. No father would ever do something like that to their daughter. This man was not an imam; he probably thought he was pious even. But no, this man is not. “A man who kills one human, it is like killing all of humanity.” This line is stated in the Quran. I believe that this murder was not done because Aqsa didn’t want to wear hijab, I think that there were other reasons, reasons that I am unsure of. But I’m not going to wish death on these people. What I am going to wish is that they live long lives, and I hope the burden of Aqsa’s death rests on their shoulders forever. I hope they suffer and hurt in their heart, I hope they forever feel like Aqsa did in her last moments. I hope that they suffer so much that no one would imagine. I didn’t know Aqsa Pervez, but other people did. And I pass my condolences to them, to those who lost their sister, friend, or best friend. I’m so sorry. I can say that I know how you feel, but I’m not going to because I really don’t know what you people are going through. I believe that what her so called “father” did was the worst thing that anyone could ever do. I hope that he suffers forever, with the burden of Aqsa’s murder on his shoulders. I hope he is haunted by her everyday, I hope that he feels guilty for what happened every day of his life. I hope her brothers suffer the most, because they are the ones that stood in that room and watched their sister’s life slowly drain of her, and they did not do anything. I hope her “brothers” and “father” are haunted by this forever and that they never have anything good come to them. Her “father” will be praying namaaz in a jail cell for the rest of his life. And I’m happy.

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  106. Ahmad AlFarsi

    It was merely put forth as a possible example of where people like this particular father, got his heinous inspiration from.

    That is a grossly incorrect statement. I am 99.999% certain that the father of this girl knew what he did was wrong and against Islam. most likely his actions resulted from a fit of rage and not from any “misunderstanding” of Islam. If you have been keeping up with the news, you should know by now that this issue had hardly anything to do with hijab anyways, and had much to do with the girl being rebellious. Unfortunately, many people of many religions do not know how to control their anger when it comes to rebellious children…

    If the father thought he was morally justified in his action, as you seem bent on proving, then why did he call the police saying “I killed my daugther”?!?!? Obviously, having realized what he did after his fit of rage was over, he, knowing he violated the principles of Islam, called the police and turned himself in…

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  107. Amad

    Awake, my “challenge” and spirit of comment was not specifically just for you, but for any other detractors. You have been much more reasonable and polite in your comments than others with clear agendas.

    I don’t have a problem with you being a messenger for the cleric’s comments… but at the same time, one has to be fair and remember that one unknown (to most) cleric’s words do not constitute a trend or majority opinion.

    thanks.

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  108. awake

    Amad,

    Understood, but in no way did I insinuate that the father’s actions were mainstream or even justifiable under Islamic law at all.

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  109. awake

    Ahmad AlFarsi,

    you wrote:

    “If I am correct in what non-Muslims mean by using this word (Islamism), then, people should know that it is a central tenet of Islam that the Muslim leader should govern according to the Shari’ah. i.e. Islamism, as defined above, is the common belief of nearly all Muslims (or I should say, practicing Muslims).”

    I agree totally here.

    You also wrote:

    “that being said, you might be able to find one wacky Imam (or even multiple ones) who say something like this Imam said (that non-hijabis should be killed)… but their sayings are out of ignorance of Islam… even out of ignorance of their own sect of Islam…”

    Agreed.

    Also:

    “now, hear me loud and clear… you will not find a SINGLE sect of Islam that advocates that a woman should be killed for not wearing hijab.”

    I never suggested otherwise, not for a second, but this does lead to my point in particular.

    Knowing that this cleric is not just a random nobody, but rather, a direct representative of Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei, the leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran, it certainly does beg the question of the Iranian theocratic leadership’s position on this.

    When the world sees examples like this, with no retribution against this cleric, this misunderstander of Islam, one logically has to assume that the Iranian theocracy supports it.

    In that reality, and on that scale, the problem of the individual action in this story pales when compared to the potential problem. This singular “kook” theory now evaporates rather quickly

    I guess someone could criticize all of Iran, from Khamenei on down, including the entire theocratic structure, including the unknown masses of civilians that support him, but for some reason, I do not believe that is likely to occur in any mainstream fashion either.

    What say you?

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  110. Ahmad AlFarsi

    awake,

    I dunno. I’m not gonna defend the Iranian govt or anything… as I really despise much of what they do (namely, their extreme persecution of Sunnis), but at the same time… I don’t expect that they would support such an extreme and obviously unIslamic statement.

    Are you sure he wasn’t reprimanded for what he said? Just cuz the media didnt cover it, doesnt mean that it didnt happen… ever heard of biased reporting??? If he was reprimanded, do you really think that you would hear about it on the media?? I dont think we would at all…

    secondly… it is not clear in which context he made his comments. Maybe his comments were taken out of context and he was referring to, for example, some rebels who are trying to dismantle their govt (and happen not to wear hijab)… It happens very often that the media twists someone’s words to suit their own desires…

    Again, I have no desire of defending the Iranian govt, I was only stating what does and doesn’t seem plausible. And if the media did report correctly on this Imam, then I will say it again, he’s a loon, a nutjob, and I would be vastly surprised if he wasnt criticized for what he said…

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  111. awake

    Fair enough, but if he was not reprimanded or taken out of context, than you can agree that it is problematic, right?

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  112. Ahmad AlFarsi

    Problematic… yes. But what needs to be said is that we Muslims, as many problems as we may find in our societies, need to resolve our problems *by ourselves*… i.e. without any non-Muslim/foreign “help” (like the so-called “help” we got in Iraq from America…)

    what I’m trying to say is that even if the problem exists as you state, we don’t want any non-Muslim interference (i.e. any influencing of the govt of any Muslim country by non-Muslim countries would be/are most unwelcome)…

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  113. Keith

    Ahmed AlFarsi,
    Iraq will be a rich, beautiful paradise before any of the other muslim countries solve even 10% of their problems. The rest of the world has been waiting a long, long, long time but countries with a large muslim population seem incapable of positive change on their own.

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  114. Umm Reem

    Yeah Keith…just like…lemme guess…Afghanistan??!
    Now lets see how this same ‘help’ will turn Iraq into the Garden of Eden!!

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  115. Keith

    Yeah, I would rather live in the Afghanistan of today than under the Taliban. Evidently so would a lot of people which is why all the refugees are moving back. If life under the Taliban was so good, why did all the Afghanis leave?

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  116. Amad

    Keith, thanks for the official neocon dream/propaganda world. Can we get back to reality now?
    If america stops creating dictators and supporting oppressive puppet govts, perhaps we could have had better luck.

    Talking about amount of time, so how long did our nation take to remove the scourge of slavery and disenfranchisement of blacks and women and become a great nation? Hmm… Let me help you. Nearly 200 years to rid itself of this uncivilized behavior AND without foreign imperial interference. So, you haven’t waited long enough.

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  117. Keith

    The Middle-east doesn’t need any help from us, they create plenty of dictators all by themselves.

    So I need to wait at least 200 years before all these changes to happen? I think it can happen faster.

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  118. Amad

    Keith, unfortunately you’ll find western hands nearly in all dictatorships: saddam, shah of iran, busharraf, hosni, and the list goes on.

    U mentioned the long, long, long time… I gave you context. And that makes your contention that this length of time is a muslim-related phenomenan a farce like all other neocon propaganda.

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  119. awake

    Ahmad AlFarsi,

    Thanks for the response. Apparently we as collective people on this planet, with obvious ideological differences as well as differing opinions on exactly what needs to be changed, with US foreign policy included, and noted, and I wish that we were not here having to discuss matters such as these, but alas, we are and we have to.

    I apologize for the late response, but I was rather diverted today making arrangements to bury my beloved departed uncle this coming Christmas Eve.

    Impending death, like newborn life is constant and unavoidable. I will leave you not with a threat but an expression of reality that must be considered.

    There would be no real need for sites like this, or other, right-wing, anti-Islamic blogs, like Jihad Watch, if not for 9/11.

    It is painfully unfortunate, but true nonetheless. That being said, I am all for solutions, not one-sided ones per se, but mutually beneficial solutions as an end result.

    I reiterate, we have a long way to go in that regard, but I wish you well in the interim.

    Peace.

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  120. Iftekhar

    To those who supports hijab, can you imagine I how much bankrupt muslim community has become? You don’t feel ashamed when 6 million Israelis kick the ass of 100 millions Arab muslims. You don’t feel ashamed when around 5 million muslims flee to Western countries for a better life from so called muslim countries. But you feel ashamed when a young innocent girl take off her hijab, and do not hesitate to kill her. Shame on you.

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  121. Amad

    Congratulations Iftekhar for making the strangest and most conflated comment of all time…
    hijab, israel, living in the west, killing for hijab, shame… wow, you have a lot on your mind.

    One suggestion: read the article and the comments first before sharing your deep thoughts with the world.

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  122. Salafiya

    lol? Some of these comments are absurd (the ones that are blaming Islaam and/or every Muslim).

    Anyhow, this is no laughing matter. It’s a shame that Aqsa was murdered and I don’t believe I have read anything about her committing sins that took her out of the folds of Islaam (and even then, from my understanding it is the judge who orders the legitimate punishment in the shari’ah), so may Allaah forgive her for her sins and have mercy on her. Ameen

    As for the family, may Allaah also forgive them for what they have done and also have mercy on them. Ameen.

    It’s so sad. Aqsa is gone. Her immediate family and relatives are going through a horrible time and their (materialistically speaking) life is over. So it’s not just 1 life ruined. It’s a whole family’s life….just because of something I think could’ve been solved had they taken the proper steps. Khair inshaAllaah. Perhaps this will be the turning point for the father & the family. Of course, they can never bring back Aqsa. They cannot go back in time and fix what they did. But as long as they have life in them, they can repent as Allaah is the Most-Merciful.

    [I say the above because a lot of Muslims (in Facebook groups) are damning the father straight to an eternal stay in Hell…when even the man who killed 100 innocent people was forgiven because of his sincere regret for it, as it was related in a hadeeth.]

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  123. esmat

    again puzzled esmat:)
    re reading the whole thing again.
    so, maybe Aqsa´s father consider her murtad because of not wearing hejab and therefore felt obliged to kill her..(yes, i know it is a bit wahhabi:), but apart from generally abusive nature, I wonder why he felt so rightehous about this, that he felt obliged to push her to observe religious prescriptions…
    some people are saying, that the ayaat “Let be no compulsion in religion… et caetera” was revoked by the later “verse of the sword”.. based upon abrogation theology (sounds bizarre to me and provoking doubts, very, very serious doubts about Holy Quran and Islam)
    see

    http://www.sunnipath.com/Library/Books/B0040P0021.aspx

    especially this categorisation..
    There is also the view that there are four classes of naskh:

    Qur’an abrogates Qur’an.

    Qur’an abrogates sunna.

    Sunna abrogates Qur’an.

    Sunna abrogates sunna.

    i always thought that islam is a logical one, but finding this site was like a blowing of a bomb…
    uff.

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  124. whitetower1

    A very simple question for the Muslims (and their sympathizers) posting here: do you specifically reject and condemn those verses in the Quran and the hadiths that justify maltreatment of women and unbelievers?

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  125. ibnabeeomar

    whitetower – there aren’t any hadith or verses in quran justifying the maltreatment of women. period. there’s out of context misinterpretations, but nothing truly in islamic texts justifying those things. out of context – its no worse than the same thing being done to the bible or any other text.

    esmat – naskh is a more advanced subject if you haven’t studied what comes before it. as with any science, if you jump into advanced issues before covering the basics, it will blow your mind.

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  126. esmat

    Dear Ibnabeomar, but, that is not an answer…sole idea of abrogation is very, very tricky.. if we proclaim /as we are already proclaiming) that Quran is unchanging and eternal Word of Allah (swt), why is even an abrogation needed?
    as for verses about beating women, they are in quran.. don´t pretend they are not.. so, let explain us with the due context, how they are to be understood – pls, with tafseers..
    that is the right answer..
    I always hate when imam responses such way, as I were a kindergarten kid.
    because, everybody is able to search it on the net..
    and naskh (it is a bit like law) is not so difficult.. it is difficult only whitout abrogation, and that is the thing that repels me..
    uff

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  127. Farhan

    I made a video on this topic on Youtube and I received quite a bit of hatred in response. It’s very disheartening.

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  128. AnonyMouse

    Esmat, you’re oversimplifying the matter. It’s not a case of “if the Qur’an is the perfect word of Allah, then why did it need to be abrogated?”
    Simple study of the sciences of the Qur’an sheds immense light on the numerous wisdoms behind the words of Allah and His Commands.

    As for the issue of mistreatment of women, it has been addressed many times by the knowledgeable shuyookh – and that’s who I advise you to ask these questions to.

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  129. esmat

    AnonyMouse, you are nebulizing the whole thing. – Perfect things do not need any further changes, if they need, they are no more perfect. point.
    On the one side, we are proudly proclaiming, that Bible and Torah has been corrupted.. and I heard no one to respond to abrogation.
    So, if we are not crystal clear in this, how we can defend islaam? or to resort to physical force, or insults? it is not a good way, in case when we are resorting to this, we have already lost the case.

    “Simple study of the sciences of the Qur’an sheds immense light on the numerous wisdoms behind the words of Allah and His Commands”
    and what about abrogation?
    Did you even look at the site where it is mentioned?

    You know, that is problem with questions in islam. If one asks – you are told do not ask… or you will receive so vague answers. – yes, and what with contradictions and discrepancies?
    Can you explain me at least this one?:
    -And he has set free the two seas; one is fresh and palatable and the other is salty and bitter; and he has built between them a formidable, inviolable barrier. *

    I have a degree in Physics, I m working in a lab. so, because of scientific proofs, it is harder and harder to believe …
    I can cite you at least one well scientifcally proved..that no barrier exists.. even child is able to prove it.
    so, what about it?

    but back to the subject.
    Hejab is mandatory in islam. it is a religious duty.. so if Aqsa refused to wear it, her father has to pray for her.. not to beat her.
    I do not like the conspiratory theories or the victimisation of the Aqsa – let s take the worst possible scenario, that she was really murdered for not wearing a hejab.. , so make a dawah for fathers – if your daughter do not want to wear hejab, pray for her.. pray from the whole heart.., try to enlight her, but by words, not by fists… otherwise our claims “Let there be no compulsion in religion” will sound hollow…
    Blessings
    Esmaat

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  130. storm*candy-

    first of all i would say that it is wrong tat he killed,buh at the same time the girl was wrong to.why wouldnt wer her hijab she practically makin muslimz look bad.buh nywayz the dad was mad,hurted inside look a muslim nd the daughter nuh wearin hijab?yes he made a mistake buh wat would you do if ur daughter or son didnt wear the hijab or direspect you>?u woldnt ovboiusly kill the buh u will be furious?he didnt mean to kill her it jush came out!no doubt he will be punished after thiz life buh he only wanted the writing thing for his daughter?

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  131. AllEqual

    I just read this entire thread. I came here in an attempt to find out if Aqsa’s father has been convicted yet. To me, that is all that is important here. Aqsa deserves justice. Most of the comments here are irrelevant.

    It is irrelevant to this case if a Sikh or any other person killed their daughter too. It is untrue that other cases aren’t publicized. example: Jassi Sidhu http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/murderedbride The Robert Pickton comments are completely irrelevant too. I am a Canadian; I have known about Pickton since he became a suspect in the murders of all those women, but have just heard about Aqsa Pervez today (Feb 2009) while reading a post on http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org

    It is irrelevant why Aqsa’s father killed her as well. Every murderer in Canada should be punished for murder. This is the law. Jassi Sidhu’s uncle & mother should be convicted, Aqsa’s father (and possibly brother) should be convicted, as well as Robert Pickton and anyone else who thinks it’s O.K. to kill women or anyone else for that matter. PERIOD!!! NO MORE EXCUSES! It’s all inexcusable.

    Oh, and all of these women I’ve mentioned are innocent victims of these crimes. (Aqsa does not need any mercy or forgiveness, she didn’t murder anyone.) Comments like that make me sick! That’s like saying victims of pedophiles need mercy and forgiveness. Nonsense!

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