Politics
Second Presidential Debate…Who Won…Obama or McCain?
The second debate just ended. Punches flew all around. I thought McCain did a pretty good job early on, by talking in crisper and more digestible sound bytes. But Obama got better towards the end. I believe the moment that will be most discussed was when McCain referred to Obama as “that one”, a moment that to me (and I think many Americans) embodied arrogance and a touch of supremacy. I think this will come to haunt McCain and will be played over and over in the media.
Is it just me or are there others who can’t stand the image of McCain? It’s like I get a really bad taste in my mouth just by looking at him, which makes it hard to focus on what he is saying. And his patronizing way, as if he is talking to little children, was very annoying. Look, McCain, we don’t want grandpa (even though you are more in the great-grandpa range), we are looking for a President. So, stop the “my friends” shenanigan.
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What I found amazing, and I hope the American people will see right through it, is how
McCain camp is openly proclaiming its desire to shift the topic from the economy to personal smear attacks. While the 401Ks and life savings of everyday Americans are tanking, McCain wants us to worry about a 70s radical. I know that Obama responded with a McCain smear of his own, but I am not sure he had any choice, considering the swift-boating of Kerry.
Anyway, back to the debate… bottom-line, McCain did better than the last debate. And other than “that one” mistake, I’d say the debate was a tie, or leaning towards McCain. Attack tactics work in American politics, and I think the bull-dog McCain of the “bomb, bomb Iran” fame did slightly better. Your thoughts??
Photo courtesy Reuters
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Amad
October 7, 2008 at 10:58 PM
Can anyone tell me why the Israel question got picked… is it the highest priority on American minds right now worrying about what happens with a an imaginary nuclear powered Iran, engaged in an imaginary attack on Israel, and then for us to sit here and consider our response? Just another example of how the media has so much influence put on by Israeli interests.
Did anyone notice how Obama pronounces Pakistan quite well?
sincethestorm
October 7, 2008 at 11:38 PM
I really didn’t care for either of them. Obama wants to present himself as the champion for the poor…he’s Robin-hood eh? So he is going to tax the wealthiest in the nation more…not the middle class.
Both, healthcare policies are awful. McCain’s $5,000 will do nothing. Who in their right mind is going to cross into another state and get healthcare. People don’t travel when they’re sick! We need socialized medicine. We spend more in insurance premiums over the course of an year than we would if we raised taxes to cover nationalized healthcare.
Terry Pearson
October 7, 2008 at 11:47 PM
This is in response to SinceTheStorm’s comment. McCain did not say that you would have to travel to another state to get healthcare. McCain suggested that you can buy health insurance from other states (which is currently banned).
I think that allowing people to buy health insurance from companies in other states is a good idea. It is unfair that I can only choose from six health insurance companies in my state right now. I would love to have more options.
AbuAbdAllah, the Houstonian
October 8, 2008 at 12:32 AM
bismillah. who won? in many states the winner was shaytan: how many Muslims who would normally pray Isha in the masjid (and that’s regularly) did not pray Isha there tonight lest they miss the debate. even though channels like CNN and CSPAN have already rerun it in its entirety, so that not a single Muslim needed to miss prayer in jamat nor delay it to make dhikr of this debate.
h. ahmed
October 8, 2008 at 2:01 AM
They asked about Israel because of Florida. Along with Ohio & Pennsylvania, Florida is one of the key swing state that the election will probably come down to. And of course Florida is where most elderly Jews are (who all happen to vote) – and for them Israel is a major issue (especially since a significant number of them probably think Obama is a Muslim, and/or has ties to terrorists).
Sincethestorm is right. We do need a single payer national health care plan. But Obama’s plan is still MUCH much better than McCain. McCains plan for healthcare is very dangerous for several reasons (read: http://www.hahmed.com/blog/2008/10/06/nytimes-paul-krugman-health-care-destruction/).
And Obama definitely won. McCain’s temper started to show as the debate progressed (I agree he started off strong) – and Obama schooled him several times towards the end on various foreign policy issues.
abdul fatah ( Jakarta)
October 8, 2008 at 9:19 AM
hot competition..I think Obama Knocked McCain out in the second debate such the first debate. McCain showed has no An Ability to recovery US’ Economy crisis. McCain can’t give the solution for American problem, on this debate showed that he has no underpinning in economy analysis. in the other hand, Obama showed master in Economy issue, and it sufficient to ensure American people to vote him. And black campaign which done by McCain and his team recently, will be useless. So WELCOME TO WHITE HOUSE for YOU Mr. OBAMA!!!
Amad
October 8, 2008 at 9:27 AM
AbuAbdullah, now that’s not quite fair. In most states. At least in Northeast, the debate was nearly an hour after Isha prayer. And I suspect that in the West Coast, it was before Isha’. Doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive :)
I agree with sincethestorm and h.ahmed… both plans are band-aids. America is the wealthiest developed nation, yet our citizens have to make choices on treatments (not the type of treatment, but just GETTING the treatment). Because of the high insurance rates and high deductibles, most people prefer to wait until symptoms get really bad before seeking medical advice. Preventative medicine is so far behind other Western nations.
In my humble opinion, medical care should not be an optional government benefit. There are some things in life that every human deserves… food, shelter and medical care. How can we put a price on who deserves medical care and who doesn’t? I would urge everyone to watch Michael Moore’s Sicko, which is an eye-opening window into how far America is behind in providing health-care. Instead of spending billions on neocon wars, and billions on bailing out toxic debts, why not spend billions on providing healthcare for all. Doctors make enough dough … its time for them to sacrifice a bit too. I am sure they can survive on a quarter of a million, instead of a million. Yes, I believe in universal healthcare, nationalize it if you can’t get a good private program working. There are enough models around the globe to look at.
The two plans by the candidates are not leaps, just small steps. McCain’s plan will tax all insurance monies provided by employers and then turn around and give you a credit. So, if your healthcare is funded by your employer to the tune of say $10,000 (about what a good plan costs for a family), and your tax rate is 30%, then you will pay $3000 taxes, and possibly get $5000 back, so you are ahead slightly. But in 5 years, the insurance plan from your employer will probably be $20,000, and then you’ll be behind. Obama’s plan doesn’t touch what you have, and gives solid credits to those who don’t insure.
On a different note, I still can’t believe that McCain tried to make a case that Obama needs to temper his rhetoric about “attacking foreign countries”. I liked how Obama jumped right back and reminded McCain about his bombing-Iran song!
As for Israel, yes there are many Jewish voters in swing states, but then why not bring up the question about the Obsession DVDs, keeping in mind the many Muslim voters in Ohio and Florida?
P.s. I have embedded the video of the “that one” McCain gaffe in last night’s debate. Huffington is talking about it, and its quite heavily “digged”.
Hassan
October 8, 2008 at 9:42 AM
McCain is courting important demographics of “racist” or they prefer to be called “racist americans”.
Amad
October 8, 2008 at 9:48 AM
The polls say Obama won the debate…
The undecideds, who matter the most, give it to Obama 40 to 26%. So, I guess I was too generous to McCain… glad to be wrong.
Some talking heads talk about it here.
Even if it is a tie (let me stick with my generosity), it is still a huge loss for McCain, because with his poll numbers, he needed a big win. And he didn’t get it.
Ahmad AlFarsi
October 8, 2008 at 10:06 AM
check out mccain arrogantly refusing to shake obama’s hand after the debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI0iIOqPGak
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
October 8, 2008 at 10:31 AM
Amad,
The issue of Israel/Iran is actually a very important one…other than Pakistan, where the U.S. war has already started it is by far the most likely scenario under which the U.S. could become involved in another war in the next four years. Of course, it is framed in the sense of what can we do to protect Israel because this is the default position of the American political mainstream across party lines — as Sarah Palin pointed out, the one thing that they can all agree on is that they love Israel, (and of course that they care less than nothing about Palestinians or Muslims or poor people who don’t live in the United States in general).
Islamophobia (I don’t like the term at all) can be characterized as an important issue in some ways, but I don’t think it should be near the top of the list of Muslim concerns, let alone the general population. Trying to decide who to vote for based on their comments about Islamophobia would make as much sense as telling Muslims to vote as a bloc for somebody just because he made some vague comments about secret evidence, and we know the Muslim political activist class is much too sophisticated to ever do something like that. :)
In terms of Obama’s pronounciation of Pakistan, did you actually know that this is a big issue for American right wingers. Conservapedia (the right wing nut job version of wikipedia) actually lists this as evidence that Obama is actually Muslim because he pronounces Pakistan closer to the way a Muslim Pakistani would than the way a “real American does.” This has also been mentioned several times in the National Review blog “The Corner” as a sign that Obama is not like a real or regular American, who as we all know calls us Mozlems and calls it Pack E Stan (as in Stanley).
Allaah knows best.
Siraaj
October 8, 2008 at 11:38 AM
Exaggerated – he taps him on the back and asks him to meet and shake hands with his wife, you can see him re-directing him to his wife for the handshake. If he didn’t want to have anything to do with him, he wouldn’t have tapped him on the back to start with.
Siraaj
Amad
October 8, 2008 at 11:46 AM
but can’t deny the fact that McCain couldn’t say “Barrack” one time in both his debates. At least he looked at him this time, compared to last time when he didn’t even glance at Obama. What’s he so afraid of? Can’t lie into a man’s eye?
McCain’s body language was awful in both debates. He roamed the stage, like a lion on the prowl… yet he couldn’t hunt Obama down!
Also, I don’t get why Iran/Israel is so important TO AMERICA? I know the popular media has made it that way… but really if you think about it, strategically there is no reason why America should support Israel even 1/10 of what it does. Israel is a source of much of the world’s anger towards America, so if anything strategically its the wrong country to support. I know, I know, this is just harping on something that isn’t going to change, but I hope more people will read the Israel Lobby book, and discover that our Israeli policy is the wrong strategy.
Mezba
October 8, 2008 at 11:52 AM
Oh I think McCain lost it big time – this was a big Obama victory on the debate.
I was live blogging the debate for Liblogs and most of my fellow bloggers at the forum and on the facebook forum (most are not Muslim and are impartial to either candidate) thought yesterday was Obama’s night.
On the other hand, I thought McCain did a better job last debate yet most of America gave the victory to Obama.
H
October 8, 2008 at 12:08 PM
Can I ask why the Muslims generally prefer Obama to McCain? Is it just because Obama wants to pull out of Iraq soon? Othe than that well he hasn’t really done anything to show support to the Muslims. He seems to be very pro-Israel from the talks he has given to the Jewish people. This isn’t to say that McCain is going to do anything for the Muslims, i’m just asking why the love of Obama for so many American Muslims. In the UK we Muslims really feel that neither of them will be of any benefit to the Muslims.
Siraaj
October 8, 2008 at 12:30 PM
I think there’s a lot to disagree with McCain about, but all this discussion of not looking him in the eye, or referring to him as “that one” and so on, it’s all pundit-injected drama. Yes, McCain’s campaign is aggressively trying to smear obama by using Sarah Palin to rally the wanker side of the base, but by and large, with the exception of McCain’s take on foreign policy (which is issue #1 for all of us), he hasn’t been your typical republican / neo-con. When McCain trounced Romney in the primaries, I still clearly remember all the frothing at the mouth, the seething hatred emanating from the hardcore neo-cons who had to settle for a candidate that wasn’t a lock-step hater.
His record in congress does reflect more integrity than his peers – he is well-known for being aggressively against pork barrel spending, for reaching out across the aisle to work out practical solutions, and for not being controlled by corporate interests – in that regard, I do see positive in him.
But, the overriding isue for me, as it is others, is Iraq, and there, I find him reprehensibly irresponsible in supporting the war in Iraq, even after it was clearly shown that the US was wrong for going in.
Siraaj
Mezba
October 8, 2008 at 12:43 PM
I don’t equate automatically being pro-Israel as being anti-Muslim. There are many issues and Israel is one of them. You will never find anyone who agrees 100% with you, but you make the best with what you got.
Amad
October 8, 2008 at 12:50 PM
For me personally, its the lesser of two evils question. I don’t even consider the Israel issue too much because until one of them becomes president, they won’t but kiss up to the maximum for fear of the Lobby smacking them down.
Another thing, and I heard this on my trips, that the world wants a change. McCain would represent a continuation of Bush, in the minds of most of the world’s people, even if (for argument’s sake) McCain is different. Sometimes companies change CEOs just for the “facade of change”… the new CEO is often given a chance to perform, and outsiders are more open to giving him a chance, and more forgiving of mistakes. America needs a new CEO, who can completely break off from probably 8 of the most horrible years in American history. Perhaps its unfair to conjoin McCain with Bush 100%, but McCain pretty much went along with Bush most of the time, esp. in the most unpopular event in the 8 years– the Iraqi debacle.
I also believe that Obama’s tax-plan, to cut taxes for people making under $200,000 makes a lot of sense economically. Macroeconomics tell us that consumption and spending is what drives the economy. If you give a millionaire another $100k, he isn’t going to spend much of that. But if you give someone making $50k another $1000, there is a high likelihood that he will spend a lot of it (statistically about 90%). And it is also only fair, that the rich have more burden than the less fortunate. Not crazy marginal taxes, but reasonably progressive.
Finally, I think Muslims with their compassionate side (coming from our religious beliefs) would like more government involvement in medical, education, and poverty eradication. Democrats do that better usually.
P.S. Complete tangent: What do folks think of having a competition that allows writer to submit their pitch for who would make the better President and why? Kind of like our short-story contest but politically structured.
Amad
October 8, 2008 at 12:58 PM
Br. Siraaj, I disagree about the pundit-injected drama. Debate is not only about what you say, its about what your body says. Body language is a critical part of any speech or debate. And that does reflect sincerity and other intangibles. Whether it is deliberate or means anything is less important than the fact that it does have an effect.
Abu Noor Al-Irlandee
October 8, 2008 at 1:13 PM
Siraaj, I agree that most pundit talk is vain and idle, however McCain’s arrogance, contempt for Obama, and basic poverty of character is strikingly apparent in this campaign. Now, it is true that politics corrupts everyone, and that any nationally prominent politician by definition will be arrogant, will be ambitious to a fault, will be absolutely beyond the point of even knowing when they are telling the truth or lying because their whole life is an act. This is another reason of many that Muslims should stay far far away from getting involved in electoral politics. See Anwar al-Awlaki’s recent comments of what happens to even sincere Muslim activists when they get involved in the political system, even when they are expressly getting involved in Muslim countries on a Muslim platform.
Still, those who follow politics should read the recent Rolling Stone profile of McCain to realize the true character of this, as the article titles him “Make Believe Maverick,” here: http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/23316912/makebelieve_maverick/print
H, Most Muslims realize that Obama is not especially great or sympathetic to Muslims when it comes to foreign policy. No one with a chance to be President could be. If one wanted to vote for someone who actually wanted to fundamentally change U.S. foreign policy one would have supported Kucinich or Ron Paul or Ralph Nader in the general election. But none of these people could actually win. Still, McCain is more gung ho about pursuing the nightmarish policies of George W. Bush than Bush himself is….and so many Muslims will see voting for Obama, who did oppose the Iraq war and who people feel in his heart disagrees even more with current and past U.S. policy than he can say publicly (as if Presidents are allowed to follow ‘their heart’ or as if, as I said before, a politician at that level even knows himself what he honestly believes anymore).
So Muslims feel a need to punish the Republicans, who in case you don’t realize it in the UK are in large parts, a racist and anti-immigrant party that cares little about addressing the needs of the poor or disadvantaged despite the fact that it contains many who claim to be fervently “religious.” This doesn’t mean Dems don’t contain some of these elements as well, but it is largely for reasons of social justice in this country that Muslims are gravitating to the Dems over the Republicans as well. One of the good products of all the tragedy and death we have seen in 9/11 and the subsequent Global War on Islam and Muslims is that it has prevented almost all Muslims in this country from being foolish enough to see the Republicans as worthy of support or association. (Our brother Mr. Elibiary notwithstanding, the “exception that proves the rule, so to speak).
Allaah knows best.
mulsimah
October 8, 2008 at 1:15 PM
salamualaikum
I beleive Obama had a big win. I think mcain did worst than last time mostly bc he distored the facts wayyy tooo much. I have been following this election very closely for a long time., And you have to understand Obama as a whole to understand his foreign policy. I think he had some pakistani friends and i heard he even went to visit once, his healthcare plan is ok, it might work it might not. but it is something diff that wouldnt hurt to try. in contrast mcains healthcare plan is terrible. he copied obama alot. like copied his theme of change. he copied many word that obama used in the debate right after obama used them! he seems to do everything just to win and not for the country. why else would he pick palin and why else would he distance himself from bush while he has voted many times for bush and his policies are not much diff from him so im tired of the argument that mcain is not ‘bush’ but u know what his record shows that he is not much diff. on torture both say that they dont agree with it but mcain has voted against habeas corpus for the detaines. so he is very inconsistent. obama on the other hand has stayed consistent. im glad obama finally attacked bak by saying who was saying bombbomb iran and go to nk . after examining the election very closely im very scared about what will happen if mcain wins. after studying the characters ect well lets say its just scary. i do hope muslims realize that iobama is less evil. and not just get stuck what he said bout pak . and they vote. they are notequal. if muslims do not vote then they cannot complain. well i was reading an article saying that we need to open up discussion in the workplaces/schools so we can educate people and tak bout the election. many do not follwo up.
Amad
October 8, 2008 at 2:10 PM
More on the “that one” low-blow: Not “The Senator,” But “That One”
Amad
October 8, 2008 at 2:50 PM
I had similar sentiments:
The worst debate ever
And for the image of the day: http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/3/deedb560.jpg
AbdulNasir Jangda
October 8, 2008 at 4:11 PM
I found this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K_MKwVBZRY
Amad
October 8, 2008 at 4:24 PM
I replaced the photo with a perfect “caption this” one.
So, take your hits and diggs… what’s Obama telling McCain?
How about this: “Wassup dawg, wassup with this dancin’ around the floor?”
Siraaj
October 8, 2008 at 4:36 PM
But it’s not because of the underlying pretext, that obama is a liberal, black, perhaps a Muslim, and so on – it’s because that’s the way he is with anyone who disagrees and runs against him aggressively – just ask Mitt Romney and Ron Paul.
Yes, it could mean many things, but can anyone decisively say what? I would say no, and so I would consider it the usual tabloid punditry.
Siraaj
Amad
October 8, 2008 at 5:16 PM
no one interested in a politics “make your case” contest??
Abu Nurah
October 8, 2008 at 5:47 PM
Salaamu Alaykum,
I am very saddened by the fact that we are even discussing this debate. I can’t tell you for sure who won, but I can tell you that Muslims lost. We lost because neither candidate could care less about representing our interests, yet we are spending precious time discussing these candidates.
AN
Amad
October 8, 2008 at 6:28 PM
I am not sure what “our” interests you refer to Br AN, but the next president affects “our” interests in America, and around the globe. Taxes, education, medical, foreign policies are all our interests and indeed, imho, one serves those interests better than the other.
We live in this country, so we should be interested in debating about who affects our interests. If some people want to be isolationists, well that’s’s up to them. In my opinion, a hands-off attitude will deepen candidate apathy towards us, and make us even more irrelevant. Instead of complaining that the candidates don’t conform to our interests, we should be asking what we are doing/can do to make them care. And debating debates, and learning about positions is how we can start to get involved in the process
Abu Nurah
October 8, 2008 at 7:33 PM
Fair enough. I believe that having a discussion about our interests as Muslims, keeping in mind what our Deen calls for, is a very worthwhile exercise. Of paramount importance should be seeking justice for our brothers and sisters suffering under this government’s policies. Which of these candidates stands up for the tens of thousands of our fellow Muslims who suffer in Iraq and Afghanistan, in Guantanamo, and in secret prisons all over? They do nothing but pander to Zionist interests. They compete to see who can sound more belligerent in going after Muslims, whether in Pakistan or elsewhere.
We should focus on demestic policies, you say? Fine, Islamicaly, health care is a people’s right. It should not be a commodity that corporations profit from. Tell me, which of these candidates shares that view?
Instead of working to build grassrots organizations to elect local candidates (and in the future national ones) that truly represent our interests, we find ourselves caught in the hooplah surrounding the usual corporate-sponsored presidential candidates.
If you really want change, why not stand behind tickets like McKinney-Clemente? Because they can’t win? Fine, let’s waste our time debating and electing someone that “can win” so we can lose all over again.
Amad
October 8, 2008 at 8:43 PM
Well both candidates have called for Gitmo to be closed so that is a good sign. Obama seems to have a stronger desire to negotiate and talk to people than to send armies, though his Pakistani policy seems to be a stretch attempt to pacify concerns about his commitment to national-security.
I am not sure what the Islamic rules are on universal health-care; if everyone for instance deserves the same level of care, does everyone have the “right” to health-care, etc. So I don’t know if this matter is that well-established or if the fiqhi rulings are settled. And there are many, many other domestic issues that are also of importance to Muslims.
I don’t disagree that local elections may be even more effective in building our interests, ground-up. But, I don’t believe that the two issues are mutually exclusive.
The fact that a McCain supporting article on MM raised such a hue and cry, even from those who decry elections and American politics, shows that people care, and do think that the President makes a difference, whether they admit it openly or not. As an asides, this situation, about being so anti-McCain and then decrying elections, seemed to have illustrated a classic conflict that people continue to carry in their minds.
Looking back, do we really believe 8 years of a Gore presidency would have been the same as the Bush presidency? I think most sane people admit that things would probably have been quite different, wallahualam. Therein lies the proof in the pudding. Presidential elections matter, Muslims matter, so our involvement matters. Thus, this definitely constitutes “Muslim Matters” :)
Olivia
October 8, 2008 at 10:32 PM
yes, i did notice Obama said Pakistan quite well lol.
also, when I was watching this debate i just kept imagining if Sarah Palin would even be able to wrap her brain around any of these questions let alone come up with an answer. scary.
Abu Umar
October 8, 2008 at 10:56 PM
I think libertarian columnist Justin Raimondo summed up the situation best:
Abu Umar
October 9, 2008 at 12:02 AM
Economic historian Thomas DiLorenzo on why not to vote: http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo59.html
sincethestorm
October 9, 2008 at 12:50 AM
I agree with Siraaj…the media is making something out of nothing. Fitna causers!
terry, thanks for the clarification…but any american in debt is going to take that 5000 bucks and pay their bills. I don’t see many families setting that money aside for healthcare. Americans are chronic spenders!
i don’t think muslims really care for either nominee. people argue for obama because he may not have the cowboy mentality that bush had…we don’t talk to people. the same stuff palin is saying. as if bombing people is better than sitting down with people…at least the only thing hurt with a discussion is ego not human lives.
Joyhamza
October 9, 2008 at 1:47 PM
Salaam ‘Alaikum,
I do understand that US muslims should make a tactical decision of whom to choose in the election, to ward off the greater harm. But really I cant understand the elation and exaggerated affiliation some of the brothers showing to Obama. In doing that they are even trying to find some forced upon mistakes of Mccain. Obviously I do not support Mccain, there is no reason to. But voting for Obama as a strategy is one thing and making him seem like a savior is quite another.
I would request the brothers of USA to look it from another tangent. I am not an American. Obviously I am not much concerned or indulged into US home policies. All that matters to me and the likes of me are the foreign policies. None of them seemed to have any compassion for muslim masses in a least bit. They are exaggerated love on Israel is sickening. One wants to keep the troops in Iraq and the other wants reinstallment in Pakistan/ Afghanistan. Biden wants to create “scools” to tackle the madrasas in pakistan. And may we leave Sarah Palin.!As a foreigner Obama, and I hate to say it, gives me more butterflies in the stomachs right now than Mccain. My country Bangladesh is not faraway from Pakistan/Afghanistan. Did they ever talk about whether the war was justified or not from a humane level? All they are debating about is which place is the central war zone – Iraq or afghanistan/Pakistan. Amazing !
Do I mean you should not vote for Obama. No, please go ahead and avoid the greater harm. But please dont show this irresponsible affection for these candidates. i hope Obama wins if that brings benefit to the US muslims. But are you going celebrate if Obama wins. I will request you not to! Your brothers and sisters outside are going to be harrased. The toss is only on whether it should be the Afghanistani/Pakistani or the Iraqis. Or maybe both but in which proportion!
Amad
October 9, 2008 at 2:10 PM
I agree Hamza, I am very cautiously optimistic about Obama. I learned a lot from my exuberance over Bush’s election in 2000. So, I am doing my best to keep my expectations very low, and urge all Muslims to do the same. That’s the best way to avoid a big letdown, because if we don’t have a lot of expectations, then when they don’t hold, we won’t be so deflated.
McCain’s rhetoric and record on foreign policy is well-known. His choice of Palin puts him firmly back within reach of the neocons. Palin could be very well Dick Cheney in heels (or worse). So, as I said, for me, it’s the lesser of the two evils. What I have heard about Obama is that his foreign policy advisors (at least one if I remember correct) are actually quite sensible people. And we all know that it is the advisers who actually recommend and implement policy. We all remember Wolfowitz and the neocon crowd around Bush. So, as long as Obama keeps himself in good company, we may have a reason to have a bit of optimism.
I also ask you to keep in mind what Obama is up to. He is a black man in a mostly white country, where a good portion of the rural white voters still harbor racist feelings. There are all the questions about his secret Muslim background and being a Manchurian candidate. None of us like that there is such a thing as “Muslim smear”, but the reality of the situation is that Islamophobia indeed has made a huge chunk of America’s population (democrats, republicans and independents) fearful of Muslims. So, what do you do when you have your back against the wall with such rumors? You almost have to over-correct– deny any Muslim connections, not visit mosques/etc., be hawkish about muslim countries, and so on. Sounds awful, and it is, besides being unfortunate. But would I rather take some of this insult, and not see McCain in office. For now, the answer is yes. I and other Obama “supporters” (and I say this in its mildest form) could be completely wrong. But I have take the odds of being wrong on Obama, than the odds of being right on McCain.
Good points though. Let’s keep discussing.
P.S. It is not because of Obama that I can’t stand McCain. The latter just gives me the creeps.
H
October 9, 2008 at 3:24 PM
I think my question brought up some good points. Another thing I would like to ask you “yanks” is what do you feel about the 2 different parties policies with regards to things like abortion and homosexuality.
I think it is quite clear that the Republicans being closely linked with the evangelical Christians are actually closer in some of their policies to Islam than the democrats and their liberal ways. We find the Republicans are generally stricter on abortion and homosexuality and would even like to promote creationism to be taught in schools, things which us Muslims would really welcome. How do you balance foreign policy with domestic policy.
How would you feel voting for someone who promotes the “right” to have an abortion or equality for homosexuality? Things which are against the shariah. It does not seem like a clear choice between a vote for good and a vote for evil.
Hassan
October 9, 2008 at 3:29 PM
Both parties use these social issues to gain votes, and no one is going to change status quo. If they resolve them, what would they do in next elections?
Most Republicans are closeted homos, they are the gayest.
mulsimah
October 9, 2008 at 3:42 PM
ok first we should learn about the candidates. it is an absolute not waste of time! you should really check out suhaibs webbs political participation audio lecture on his blog. he says that an overwhelming majority of scholars say its our duty to participate in nonmuslim countries. som e say its obligation. even those who may be ‘strict in our eyes’
how do u differ domestic from foreign? abortion will not be outlawed with a republican first of all. it was not the last eight yrs. even homesexuaity marriages were allowed. however u say it. and lets look at the big picture. what others things are important , more imp I should say. trustworthiness for sure. and i have def seen that more in obama. he does not flip flop continuously. he is actually runing for the country I cannot say the same for mcain. first bc he attatcks to much , second bc he picked palin, third bc he changs all the time. so it seems like its just to win! nothing else. check out michael moore and huffingtonpost website. ok what else islamically is important. equal rights for everyone right? and then we are suppose to free the prisoner right. well they both talk but who really walks the walk? they both say they dont agree with torture. but mcain has voted against habeas corpus for the detainees, obama on the other hand has been consisitent with his support to close guantanamo and he has worked with the guantanamo lawyers!!!! read his books . you cannot judge the man just bc he mentions pakistan all the time. and u cannot trust mcain bc he changes . he is the who always wants to bomb but obama want to restore our reputation in the world.
I am going to copy and paste what I wrote to joyhamza in suhaib webbs site:
To get the facts str8 Mcain has also stated ‘we need more troops in Afghanistan’ So they both will do that.
There is a major need for USMuslims to go for Obama because Obamas policies are definately different and better. He has been consistent with his policies about being against the war and about torture. Mcain sais hes against torture but he voted against habeas corups for detainees. Both which Mcain has not. Some of Mcains supporters are anti islam. Mcain has said he would not approve of a Muslim being pres (altho he changed his mind later) Mcains policies are not much diff fromBush’s and we know where that led us. He as a disastrous health care plan which is important to every person living in america , muslim or not.
Obama does not just want to transfer troops , he wants to end the war in Iraq. Mcain has mentioned no time period for ending the war. They are not ‘equal in evil’ as some say.
If muslims dont vote in this election then they cannot complain.
salaam
yes Obama was trying to say that we should have never gone into Iraq in the first place. many say it is an ‘illegal’ war. he was trying to say after 9/11 we should of focused on one place, afganistan.
mulsimah Says:
October 9th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
but I understand his tone scared many muslims. the thing is that hes just honest. if he was really against muslims he wouldnt care to talk to iran, while mcain say that we should not ‘talk’ and hold dialogue, what does that mean , that we should just take action? Also guantanamo lawyer all support Barack Obama (i will post the proof) he has actually helped them. so we know that he is just not talk, he has showed action already.
here it is:
http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2008/01/30/style-and-substance-guantanamo-lawyers-back-obama/
chek out his other articles involving the candidates also.
h. ahmed
October 9, 2008 at 4:28 PM
As salaam alaikum wr wb,
As an American Muslim – to see how far we’ve fallen in the past 8 years – its beyond tragic. The economy is failing, our global image is tarnished, our foreign policy is a disaster, our injust wars, Gitmo, other secret prisons… i do not understand how any American who lives in this country – while contributing taxes to the government, and benefitting from all of its services (police, firefighteing, medicare/medicaid, social security, the fact that we have freedom of religion, allowed to build masjids, celebrate holidays, etc.) – and at the same time doesnt care about the election.
If you dont know Obama and have questions about him – read his books, get to know him. PLease dont judge him by only what u read/hear in the media. Hes far from perfect – but hes not nearly as bad as many of you are suggesting. Of course he is by far the lesser of 2 evils, but he isnt that evil after all!!! Of course I would prefer a Ralph Nader or a Dennis Kucnich over Obama, but having Obama is still a blessing – it could be much worse…. Also to compare him in 2008 to Bush in 2000 is entirely unfair.
Moreover – about the social issues – these are way over hyped and are used as cheap ploys to gather support from the conservative base. Yes Muslims share conservative values – with the Christian conservatives – but these debates over abortion, gay marriage – are nothing compared to the real issues (Gitmo, the economy, etc.) Does it really matter whether or not abortion is legal. As Muslims – were not going to go around getting abortions – just because they are legal – how does that affect us? Alcohol is illegal. The same thing with gay rights. both candidates are anti- gay marriage and essentially hold the same views on this topic as well.
For a series of a dozen really great short obama v. mccain short ads (a la pc vs. mac) – check out http://www.votesmarter2008.com/
(the website is down now, u can check it out meanwhile here: http://www.hahmed.com/blog/2008/10/09/vote-smarter-2008/ or http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=LenaKhanFilms
Amad
October 9, 2008 at 4:35 PM
One suggestion Mulsimah, please try to keep comments short and readable… please avoid copying and pasting, but instead share the link of the comment on another blog. I had a hard time going through your last comment. Just a suggestion that will make your contribution more valuable.
Amad
October 9, 2008 at 4:46 PM
Br. Haseeb, I didn’t compare the Bush of 2000 to the Obama of 2008… I compared the enthusiasm, and that we should be tempered in it, to avoid big let-downs.
mulsimah
October 9, 2008 at 7:08 PM
salaam
Im sorry!!!! can I edit it?
mulsimah
October 9, 2008 at 7:21 PM
Guantanamo Lawyer urge You to Support Obama, Read why: http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2008/01/30/style-and-substance-guantanamo-lawyers-back-obama/ (the letter from them is at the bottom of the page)
movie fan
October 10, 2008 at 11:51 AM
The candidates have a major difference in their leadership styles: McCain tends to say, “Follow me because the other guy can’t get it done” while Obama says, “Follow me because I can get it done.” Ideally, the candidates should say, “Follow me because i will help you get it done” … in any case, of the two of them Obama demonstrates a better leadership mentality
RisingTide
October 10, 2008 at 2:09 PM
As a Jew, I firmly believe that America should support Israel. As a practical Jew, I also believe that America should support functioning democracies in the Middle East — and by that I mean Iran.
The right wing fundamentalist Christians care about the ‘support for Israel’ — Jews are consistently Democratic voters (far more than their income would suggest — I believe it is the social justice inherent in Judaism), that’s the only reason I can see for asking about Israel so much.
I’d far rather see a few Muslim-oriented questions, as well — but I believe the main reason why we don’t see such things is that the reporters are lazy, and can’t figure out exactly what to ask. The Israel question is easy — too easy to answer, it’s flavorless.
After hearing about the attack in Ohio, I felt shaken… and outraged. I felt worse than when my mom cried, at Saddaam launching missiles at a kibbutz she had lived on. Because then I was young, and I did not truly understand. Now, I can see in my mind the terror of a child, the loss of safety and security that should be a child’s foremost right. I grieve, far more for such a thing, than I can for 9-11. Perhaps it is the way of things, that something small can loom larger than you might think.
Amad
October 10, 2008 at 2:26 PM
RisingTide, appreciate your sentiments. That’s why I was clear in my post on the Obsession DVD is that the the Israeli lobby for the most part in America has been hijacked by radical Jewish elements, mostly of the neocon ideology, and associates. And this is the same section of people pushing Islamophobia. And in no way do they represent all Jews, just like the extremists among Muslims don’t represent all of us.
marissa
November 4, 2008 at 7:58 PM
I think that obama is going to win as the president or of the electing because he has 122,199
and mcain has 123,198 so really there supsose to say it on the t.v. or on the radio
marissa
November 4, 2008 at 8:06 PM
But so far my friend,s say that obama is going to win the electin because most of the people that live here or anywhere had picked obama
i,m not say in everybody in the whole world. Like if you pick obama and not mcain than that is one but you would have to be 19 or older than 18.
like if i was 19 i would go for obama not for mcain .
I,d pick obama because he better and he lower the prices.
But this time it is not only who takes off the prices it is about who wounld do this and not that.