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Aqeedah and Fiqh

Islamic Jurisprudence Council Urges Western Muslims to Vote (Quran Ring Tones & More)

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quran-ringtone.gifThis is interesting in that usually the anti-vote camp is often composed of folks, who base their opposition on Islamic interpretations emanating from Saudi. So, alhamdulilah, it seems that winds of change are even blowing in this regard and that the ulema all over the world are recognizing the need for Western Muslims to actually “live” in the West, not just “reside” here. Hopefully, this succeeds in quashing out more excuses for Muslims who avoid political participation because it is “Islamically wrong”. Sorry folks, it isn’t. And one more entity in that camp is the major ulema element of Saudi.

On a less important note, though not trivial, Quran ring-tones are out. I recognize and understand that there is an element of disrespect of the Quran, even though unintended. I mean people do shut off the recitation in order to answer their phones; it could be in the middle of a verse, which, for instance, may make the meaning completely opposite of what the full verse conveys. The Egyptian scholars have been the loudest in their opinions against this. Oh, and please don’t switch to music… despite being wrong, it is also annoying! So, to all my brothers and sisters, why not just employ a simple ring-tone… you know the one that goes treeeeng treeeng?? I wonder though if the adhan would be ok??

From Al-Arabiya:

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An Islamic Jurisprudence Council based in Saudi Arabia said it was permitted to determine the sex of a fetus provided it is a medical necessity, and called on Muslims living in the West to participate in the elections.

During the six-day meeting of the Islamic Jurisprudence Council in Mecca, Islam’s holiest city, 70 Muslim dignitaries and scholars aimed to”tackle a number of important topics,” according to Saudi Arabia’s official SPA news agency.

At the closing of its 19th session, the Council sanctioned determining the baby’s sex before delivery in case certain diseases are suspected that can affect boys and not girls, and vice versa.

Three doctors would be required to confirm the medical necessity of the procedure, and the Mufti’s approval must be given, the London-based daily Al-Hayat reported.

The Council also approved damaging the ovary that could lead to a disabled child, but said that trying to control the sex of the child was strictly prohibited.
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Voting

On a separate matter, the Council encouraged Muslims to integrate into Western societies and participate in election in non-Muslim countries.

It urged them to play an effective political role, especially if elections—parliamentary or municipal—brought about public good or prevented social evils.

The Council said this was the only way for Muslims abroad to secure their rights and cautioned them against engaging in any Western habits that are contrary to the principles of Islam.
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Ringtones

The council has had stormy debates on controversial issues the past few days including a lively discussion over the use of Quranic verses as mobile phone ringtones.

“The scholars were divided on the use of verses from the Quran as mobile telephone ringtones,” the Al-Hayat daily said, describing what it called “a turbulent debate.”

In recent years many scholars of Islam, especially from Egypt, have denounced the use of Quranic verses in mobile telephony, believing it to be a frivolity that impinges on the sacred character of the Muslim holy book.

The meeting was presided by the Grand Mufti of the Kingdom and Head of the Muslim Scholars Council, Sheikh Abdul-Aziz Al al-Sheikh.

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Abu Reem is one of the founders of MuslimMatters, Inc. His identity is shaped by his religion (Islam), place of birth (Pakistan), and nationality (American). By education, he is a ChemE, topped off with an MBA from Wharton. He has been involved with Texas Dawah, Clear Lake Islamic Center and MSA. His interests include politics, cricket, and media interactions. Career-wise, Abu Reem is in management in the oil & gas industry (but one who still appreciates the "green revolution").

45 Comments

45 Comments

  1. IbnShahed

    November 8, 2007 at 11:43 AM

    As salaam alaikum,
    I respect the opinion of the scholars and others if at all the facts are based on authentic sources. Opinions may differ among people. In my opinion from the sunnah of The Prophet sallahu alaihiwasallam, muslims either live in muslim land or a non muslim land. There are conditions as to when and how some one might live in a non muslim land. when we study this we realize that the time period one is allowed to live is only temporary. A muslim must not go and settle in a non muslim land. The reason for one staying in a non muslims land can be one of many, like doing Dawah, business etc which can be found in authentic ahadith. So given all these facts how is one then permitted to take part in political activities when such activities mostly are for the benefit of citizens(in other words permanent residents) of that country. Allah knows best.

  2. ruth nasrullah

    November 8, 2007 at 11:53 AM

    Asalaamu alaikum. Did they make any commentary regarding a Muslim woman’s status as a voter?

  3. Faraz

    November 8, 2007 at 12:48 PM

    I’m not sure I’d be comfortable with Quran ringtones. They can go off anywhere, including places that are not clean, and as you mentioned, we would be interrupting it every time we answer it.

    Adhan would be the same problem.

    I can only imagine the confusion when people forget to shut off their cellphones in the masjid. As the imam is reciting, some phone starts belting out the adhan, or a qari begins reciting some surahs. That can really confuse people, and mess up the whole jama’ah!

  4. IbnShahed

    November 8, 2007 at 1:01 PM

    Interesting though, when an incident of music on the phone disturbed the jama’ah, the Imam in our masjid got up after salah and recommended that people avoid music and rather put Quran as the ringtones.

  5. Amad

    November 8, 2007 at 1:16 PM

    salam Sr. Ruth… I don’t think that there is or should be a difference as it applies to women voters (vs male voters) in a non-Muslim secular society. I don’t even know if there are legitimate (proof-backed) differences between male and women voters or advisors in a Muslim society.

  6. AbdelRahman

    November 8, 2007 at 1:40 PM

    Interesting! I never used Qur’an ringtones – mom always mentioned the cutting the verse halfway argument, so I stayed away. But, for a while, I did use the adhaan. I wonder if there is any distinction between the two? My phone recently hard reset itself, so I’m back to the “treeeng treeeng” you speak of, but I was intending to switch back to some sort of adkhaar, even a nasheed of some sort, just something to remind me of Allah during the hectic day.

  7. Islam Blog

    November 8, 2007 at 1:59 PM

    Is it permissible for Muslims to vote for kaafirs who seem to be less evil?

    Question:
    Some Moslems in a non Islamic country are asking if it is OK to participate in the elections there and vote for non Moslem groups or parties. They claim that it would serve the Moslem community there if a certain group won the elections?

    Answer:

    Praise be to Allaah.

    This is a matter concerning which rulings may differ according to different circumstances in different times and places. There is no absolute ruling that covers all situations, both real and hypothetical.

    In some cases it is wrong to vote, such as when the matter will have no effect on the Muslims, or when the Muslims have no effect on the outcome of the vote. In this case voting or not voting is all the same. The same applies in cases where all the candidates are equally evil or where they all have the same attitude towards Muslims…

    It may be the case that the interests of Islam require Muslims to vote so as to ward off the greater evil and to reduce harmful effects, such as where two candidates may be non-Muslims but one of them is less hostile towards Muslims than the other, and Muslims’ votes will have an impact on the outcome of the election. In such cases there is nothing wrong with Muslims casting their votes in favour of the less evil candidate.

    In any case, this is the matter of ijtihaad based on the principle of weighing up the pros and cons, what is in the interests of Islam and what is detrimental. With regard to this matter, we have to refer to the people of knowledge who understand this principle. We should put the question to them, explaining in detail the circumstances and laws in the country where the Muslim community is living, the state of the candidates, the importance of the vote, the likely benefits, and so on.

    No one should imagine that anyone who says that it is OK to vote is thereby expressing approval or support for kufr. It is done in the interests of the Muslims, not out of love for kufr and its people. The Muslims rejoiced when the Romans defeated the Persians, as did the Muslims in Abyssinia (Ethiopia) when the Negus defeated those who had challenged his authority. This is well known from history. Whoever wants to be on the safe side and abstain from voting is allowed to do so. This response applies only to elections for influential positions. And Allaah knows best.

    Islam Q&A
    Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

  8. Amad

    November 8, 2007 at 2:51 PM

    nasheed.. now that’s a good idea… wouldn’t mind a Junaid Jamshed nasheed interrupting me!

  9. talib

    November 8, 2007 at 3:14 PM

    funny story…

    the imams these days recommend putting off your cellphone right after telling them to line up and avoid the gaps before prayer. So our imam said those lines, not 20 seconds later after takbeer that we hear an indian music coming out of a brothers cell phone.

    does anyone bother to listen to the imams these days.

    the nasheed ring tone might be good idea..but a regular ring would be better

  10. Amad

    November 8, 2007 at 3:26 PM

    And the funny thing is that the culprit for the music clips during prayer usually let it ring instead of shuffling around their pockets for it… so as to not be identified, and pretend that it must have been the other guy!

  11. AnonyMouse

    November 8, 2007 at 4:41 PM

    Anasheed ringtones all the way!

    You can download other ones, too, though – cats meowing, old-fashioned-telephone ring, gunfire (on second thought, not such a good idea for us :D), etc.

    Mind you, my dad did have one embarrassing moment when he had his cell set on a whistle ringtone… he was at the bank once, his cell started ringing, and the clerk (a girl) exclaimed in shock and disgust, “EXCUSE ME?!” (She thought he was whistling at her!)
    The story never fails to crack me up :lol:

    Oh, and don’t forget the silent “vibrate” option!

  12. inexplicabletimelessness

    November 8, 2007 at 8:56 PM

    as salaamu alaikum

    are there any places online for anasheed ringtones?

  13. inexplicabletimelessness

    November 8, 2007 at 9:01 PM

    About voting, that is definitely a change in perception and very interesting.

    But I have a question:

    For Muslims living in the West, how exactly, through legal means, can we “enjoin the good”.

    I mean, issues like abortion, gay marriage, etc…. is quite clear in Islam, but how can we as Muslims speak out against these issues when maybe the people running for office who are with us on these issues (conservative Republicans, usually, not including Giuliani, as you may know!) on the other hand promote a disastrous foreign policy for Muslims all over the world (ie. staying in Iraq and bombing Iran, if necessary).

    I think we need an article on MM about Muslims being Socially Conservative within the US…

  14. waleed

    November 8, 2007 at 9:11 PM

    Assalam ualaikum,
    funny and sad thing that hapnd at a masjid…
    two brothers started fighting right after fard isha salah (astaghfirullah) because one person said sumthing to the other while praying. the uncles and imam and people stopped the fight and wanted to know what happened. so the boy comes up to explain to everybody what happend and his cell phone starts ringing to like the loudest volume of some bhangra song! the intense situation with all the fighting and angry people was broken up and everybody starts laughing lol will nvr forget that
    i have the azan ringtone wonder if thats ok

  15. MR

    November 9, 2007 at 1:20 AM

    Most cell phones nowadays can download MP3s and use it as a ringtone. So you can basically get anything, including your voice. Just record it and convert it into an MP3 and you can download it to your phone and make it a ring tone.

  16. Kashif

    November 9, 2007 at 1:28 AM

    salaam aleikum,

    none of these sheikhs really amount to much, especially given some of the more ridiculous fatwas coming out of them lately i.e. if a woman breast feeds her co-worker it makes it mahram, or the earlier fatwas coming from these SAME sources authorizing the U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia in 1991 here:

    http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/special98/trechery.htm

    the famous “mecca document” was cited by Norman Schwartzkopf in his autobiography as something he considered crucial to building the coalition.

    as for voting, this article dissects most of the arguments piece by piece:

    http://www.halalfoodforthought.com/articles/voting.html

    http://www.halalfoodforthought.com/articles/omar.html

    as well as the track record and accomplishments of Muslims who have gone down this road:

    1. Having Hillary Clinton RETURN the money of the saudi funded AMC president in NY when she was running for Senate.

    2. Claim to fame of having elected Bush to office in 2000, a claim that has reaped countless dividends.

    3. Having the director of the premier organization pushing Muslims to vote (the American Muslim Council) in America being arrested at Reagan national Airport with $500,000 cash in his suitcase. It later came out in his trial that he admitted going to Islamic conventions to “buy” people for his cause.

    If the sha’riah means nothing or that “Islam is made for our benfit” as one of the “traditional” sheikhs said on a tape after 9/11 feel free to vote. After all the track record speaks for itself.

    regards,
    skh

  17. Yus from the Nati

    November 9, 2007 at 1:33 AM

    I think we all need to back up a bit…and stop worrying about these Presidential elections and start “worrying” about your own community elections…I’m talking about city/township/municipals. I’m sorry but Presidential elections no matter what anybody wants to say…does not really affect you. I mean 4 real 4 real. Your area affects you most so start there then go outwards insha’Allah. Be a commissioner of your area or just START attending meetings and give a Muslim presence

  18. brnaeem

    November 9, 2007 at 3:25 AM

    AA-

    “Hopefully, this succeeds in quashing out more excuses for Muslims who avoid political participation because it is “Islamically wrong”. Sorry folks, it isn’t.”

    Great, now that we’ve gotten the Islamic part of this issue out of the way, lets discuss the pragmatic issue. What value is there in voting? The Saudi scholars alluded to that when they said: “especially if elections —parliamentary or municipal—brought about public good or prevented social evils.”

    Has this been proven to be an achievable goal? Meaning, has bringing about public good or preventing social evils ever been achieved by way of voting?

    I hope that we can finally move beyond the infantile discussions of whether participating in western elections is halal or haram and discuss the more serious issue of whether its productive or not.

  19. Amad

    November 9, 2007 at 8:52 AM

    Kashif, when you cannot show respect to scholars, despite what you may think are “ridiculous fatwas”, then the discourse amounts to a bash session or “your shaikh sucks and my shaikh doesn’t”.

    This committee of scholars is apparently composed for ulemah from around the world… it is definitely not just the Saudis. Furthermore, all scholars are humans and hence, by default, bound to err. But they have spent their lives for the sake of the deen, while we pen a few blog articles and think we know it better.

    Now, to the more important issues brought forward by Yus and Br. Naeem is “is there a benefit”, “where is the benefit”, “where to priotize our energies”.

    The question from Br. Naeem, whether there is a proven record for bringing about good through voting is an important one. To answer this I would say that we KNOW that NOT voting and sitting tight does NOT have any benefit. So, is there a harm in voting? Because at worst, you won’t achieve anything, but the upside is definitely there. Furthermore, if there was no benefit in voting, then I would say that all the much more mature political and social organizations have had it all wrong since obviously they put some energy in this.

    I do agree with Yus that starting with the local level is much more beneficial. For instance, MJ Khan got into the Houston city council and I can assure you that mashallah he has definitely benefited the Houston Muslim community by virtue of his position. I don’t think we should completely ignore the bigger races, but perhaps not tax our resources too much for it.

  20. Kashif

    November 9, 2007 at 10:55 AM

    salaam aleikum,

    simple question: do you worship Allah (swt) or do you worship a sheikh(s)?

    If the former, is our obediance to Allah (swt) and what is said in the Quran and sunnah ? and if so, do we follow EVIDENCE?

    if it is the latter, how is Islam any different than Catholicism where blind obediance to the “clergy” helps sanction what is halal or haram?

    regards,
    skh

  21. Amad

    November 9, 2007 at 11:26 AM

    simple question: do you worship Allah (swt) or do you worship a sheikh(s)?

    When you are really sick, do you go to the doctor or do you treat yourself? And when you do get healed, is it from Allah or from the doctor?

    Since we have not invested all our time in medicine, we depend on the experts i.e. the doctors to help us out with the diagnosis and treatment. Why do we then have a problem going to Islamic experts to help us out in that area? The fiqh is vast and it is not as simple as plucking up a verse or hadith and making a decision.

    For this and more, here’s a timely article that coincides with your question!

    The Truth About Taqlid (Part 1)

  22. Kashif

    November 9, 2007 at 12:08 PM

    >When you are really sick, do you go to the >doctor or do you treat yourself? And when you >do get healed, is it from Allah or from the >doctor?

    If the cause of the sickness/illness was something you yourself did and are responsible for — i.e. eat high cholesterol high fat foods and getting diabetes, contract an STD, etc.
    the doctor can only alleviate the symptoms and recommend for YOU to change your habits and behavior. In the end he/she is NOT you. They cannot live your life and YOU are responsible for YOUR OWN actions.

    similarly if you don’t pray, fast during ramadhan, or fulfill a fardh, can you ask someone else to do it for you? (in the name of taqlid)?

    to avoid sidestepping this question any longer, is:

    a. Ruling by Islam fardh?
    b. voting for politicians to commit haram (to rule by kufr instead) something that is allowed in the shari’ah?

    regards,
    skh

  23. Faiez

    November 9, 2007 at 8:06 PM

    Asalaamu alaikum

    Kashif saab, if I may interject, you bring up many good points. It’s good to see that you have found high regard in seeing through your faraai’d and want to establish Islam on this Earth.

    Let’s say, hypothetically, that we’re living in Amrika a.k.a America. And there are 2 presidential candidates. One is bent on conquering the Moslem a.k.a. Muslim world, and the other is more focused on pulling out of the Moslem world and making Amrika better.

    In such a situation, would you wote (vote)? Because if you don’t vote it is very possible that the one who wants to conquer the Moslem world is going to get into office. And if you do vote, you might be able to get someone into office who stops killing Muslims.

    Then again if you don’t vote, it is possibility that candidate that wants to focus on Amrika and pull out of the Moslem world will get into power, but do you want to take the chance that the other candidate will get into office and reak havoc in the Moslem world?

    That am question.

    Asalaamu alaikum

  24. Abu Noor Al-Irlandee

    November 9, 2007 at 9:23 PM

    As salaamu ‘alaykum Faiez,

    Jazzak Allaahu Khayr for your comments.

    I am not Kashif, but let me ask you a couple of questions. Obviously even if you do vote, the candidate bent on conquering the Muslim world may still win. Since you voted in the process, aren’t you required to accept the results and honor that person as “your” President?

    Or what if the you go around telling every Muslim that they should vote for a certain candidate for “the benefit of the Muslims” then after that candidate wins you go around claiming that the Muslims deserve the credit for that candidate winning. Then that person that you claimed credit for electing turns out to be George W. Bush. (This horror film scenario is based on a true story).

    What if all the candidates are anti-Islam? (Or at least the two that actually have a chance to win)?

    Amad, it is a bit of a problem to trumpet something as a fatwa based on a newspaper report…we don’t have a copy of the fatwa or even know who are the scholars who have signed on to it…in such a case its really worth nothing as an argument and cannot even form the basis for a substantive discussion. It’s a problem when you are asking people to respect a fatwa and then you say something like “apparently it is from scholars from all over the world” since apparently you don’t even know who has issued this fatwa. (I know there is a picture of the Saudi grand mufti as being the one presiding over the council but it’s not even clear if it is he who is signing off on these fatawa.)

    This is not to say that many if not most Muslim scholars have already said that it is permissible to vote in “Western” elections for the purpose of enjoining the good and forbidding the wrong and/or bringing benefit or avoiding harm for the Muslim community.

    Shaykh Munajjid’s comments posted above are extremely helpful. Like many issues of difference of opinion, discussion should be had in a calm, beneficial way without resort to name calling either side or saying that their opinion has no legitimacy.

    Certainly it would seem that there are certain occasions where, as long as one has a certain understanding in one’s mind (starting with the idea that one does not accept any law or system as superior to Shariah) that it may be permissible, recommended or even required to cast one’s vote.

    So, let us discuss in what circumstances and in what ways our community can do so beneficially without resorting to demonizing anyone, whether it is someone who follows an opinion which allows them to vote, or one who follows an opinion which either tells him/her not to vote or at least says they do not have to vote.

    Personally, I don’t believe the Muslim community is in a situation where the best use of our time and energy is spent towards the electoral system. Allaah knows best.

    In any event, this whole discussion has to start from a different beginning and that is one of determining what are the short and medium and long term priorities for our community in this country. Shaykh Yasir Qadhi kickstarted this discussion on this blog with some of his own opinions.

    If we start going through the mechanisms of political debate and activity without being clear on those larger questions we will either simply waste time or invite the type of disaster that occurred with the 2000 election.

  25. Abu Noor Al-Irlandee

    November 9, 2007 at 9:30 PM

    There are some typos or poor grammar in my post…I hope the meanings got across.

    One important thing to note is that once we start to ask the qustion of whether voting is in fact beneficial at this stage or in such and such circumstance…such questions are not only or perhaps even primarily the province of Fuqaha. It should not be assumed that Muslim jurists from other lands understand the ins and outs of the American political system or the community’s current reality.

    Once we determine that the Islamic legal ruling is something like, it is permissible (or even required) to vote if doing so will result in enjoining good and forbidding wrong or bringing benefit or avoiding harm for the Muslims then the factual question of whether an individual case fills these criteria must be left either to experts on the political system or on the state of the community or perhaps actually must be left in the hands of the individual Muslim to determine for him/herself.

    Allaah knows best.

  26. Amad

    November 10, 2007 at 12:30 AM

    The Islamic Jurisprudence Council held here yesterday evening its 6th session at Muslim World League (MWL) Premises.

    The session chaired by Sheikh Abdulaziz bin Abdullah Al- Alsheikh, the General Mufti of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, chairman of the council of senior Muslim scholars, as well as the Chairman of the administration of Islamic research and Ifta and who is also the head of the Islamic Jurisprudence Council, reviewed issues pertaining to the participation of Muslims in elections with non-Muslims as well as five papers presented by Sheikh Mohammed bin Abdullah Al-Subeyel, the Imam of the Holy Mosque of Makkah, and papers presented by other Muslim Scholars.

    http://www.spa.gov.sa/English/details.php?id=497080

    This is part of the Muslim World League: http://www.zawya.com/story.cfm/sidZAWYA20071108053719

    MWL’s English website has info on the 4th conference (with an impressive list of speakers), but not this 6th one: http://www.muslimworldleague.org/mwlwbsite_eng/index.htm

    Any Arabic speakers can go to its arabic website that may be more updated: http://www.themwl.org/Home.aspx?l=ar
    Here is the link to the session on voting… any translators in the house?? http://www.themwl.org/News/default.aspx?ct=1&cid=2&nid=487&l=AR

  27. Siraaj Muhammad

    November 10, 2007 at 2:04 AM

    Not to plug my site or anything, but I did happen to come across a fatwa from Shaykh Al-Albaani on this very topic (voting), so have a read:

    http://strangersoasis.com/2007/11/07/questions-addressed-to-shaykh-al-albaani/

    Siraaj

  28. Mahdi Bray

    November 11, 2007 at 10:30 AM

    As a long time civil rights activist that grew up in the segregated South, I feel that it is very important for Muslim Americans to assert their rights and to participate in the system rather than live in isolation. If we do not then the situation will become worse. Certainly there is not “perfection” but we must continue to work for the best we can.

  29. Mahmood Mirza

    November 11, 2007 at 1:46 PM

    Assalaamu ‘alaikum all.

    Jazaakum Allah khair for the beneficial comments. The following is only my opinion/understanding:

    Individuals like Congressman Ron Paul (US) and MP George Galloway (UK) are honest individuals (allahu a’alam) and they have a proven track record for standing up against oppression. (Google/YouTube their names for more info). I live in Karachi and am not a party member, fan, follower of either; simply a reader who has gained respect for their struggle. They are non-Muslim men making a brave stand against a common foe; a stand against injustice and falsehood that has always been made by the Prophets and their followers. Yet these individuals fight without the aid of Divine Guidance and it is imperative for us, the defenders of Islam, to take the Deen to them. It is also important to make du’aa that Allah (SWT) guides them to the Truth, for their own benefit. This is a sunnah of our beloved Prophet (saw).

    It is also in the benefit of the Muslims (not only in the West but those who suffer indirectly as a result of Western Imperialism in the Muslim world) to support such candidates with a vote (if permissible) without allying themselves to a non-Islamic cause. A strategic, non-sentimental vote is all that’s needed. Sheikh Al-Albaani’s explanation provided by Br. Siraaj at the link above is a necessary read.

    The believers are under attack today, and if we can contribute to making life easier (less dangerous) for the Ummah with a vote then why shy away? Be wise.

    I live in Karachi, and we have our own unique set of problems that need to be addressed with wisdom and knowledge. There is oppression and injustice in our lands and our “observant” Muslim community needs to make some very difficult decisions in the near future.

    May Allah (SWT) make these trials easy on us, and strengthen us, and help us strengthen each other, and accept out efforts and enter us into His Paradise. Ameen.

    Wassalaamu ‘alaikum.

    Akhookum,
    Mahmood

  30. Faiez

    November 11, 2007 at 5:47 PM

    Dear Mr. Orlandee

    “Jazzak Allaahu Khayr for your comments.”

    Wa iyaakum.

    “I am not Kashif,”

    So that’s why it doesn’t say Kashif after “By:”…

    “but let me ask you a couple of questions. Obviously even if you do vote, the candidate bent on conquering the Muslim world may still win. Since you voted in the process, aren’t you required to accept the results and honor that person as “your” President?”

    If your living in amrika, then whoever rules over you, rules over you. Atleast I tried my best to vote for the other guy who didn’t want to conquer the Moslem states in the east. Something I could’ve done was not vote and sat at home…but that wouldn’t have been productive now would it?

    “Or what if the you go around telling every Muslim that they should vote for a certain candidate for “the benefit of the Muslims” then after that candidate wins you go around claiming that the Muslims deserve the credit for that candidate winning. Then that person that you claimed credit for electing turns out to be George W. Bush. (This horror film scenario is based on a true story).”

    Yea, quite an ironic scenario. That’s why we need more knowledgeable people looking into our candidates so we can make wise desicions. Not knowing the future is not a reason for not doing anything. You work with the info/tools/resources that you have.

    “What if all the candidates are anti-Islam? (Or at least the two that actually have a chance to win)?”

    Vote for the one who is “the lesser of two evils”. Or you can run for president mr. orlando and I’ll vote for you :)

    Asalaamu alaikum

  31. Amad

    November 11, 2007 at 6:57 PM

    I’d like to add to Faiez’s response:

    “but let me ask you a couple of questions. Obviously even if you do vote, the candidate bent on conquering the Muslim world may still win. Since you voted in the process, aren’t you required to accept the results and honor that person as “your” President?”

    As an American or living in America, I certainly accept the country’s President as my President. So? I mean I accept my boss at work as my boss. I may not like him, but that doesn’t really matter.

    “Or what if the you go around telling every Muslim that they should vote for a certain candidate for “the benefit of the Muslims” then after that candidate wins you go around claiming that the Muslims deserve the credit for that candidate winning. Then that person that you claimed credit for electing turns out to be George W. Bush. (This horror film scenario is based on a true story).”

    Muslims are a young “political force” in America. Many mistakes will be made and we will only grow if we learn from them, not run and hide after making them. We joined the Bush bandwagon because he did make certain comments that were positive for Muslims, while on the other side you had an Orthodox Jew as VP. Of course, that was our mistake, to take the candidate’s religion on one side, and one statement on the other side to make our judgement.

    One more thing: hindsight is 20/20. If 9/11 hadn’t happened (and Qadr Allah it had to happen), perhaps things would have been quite different. So, you can never quite predict the future, but you can try to put the odds in your future as much as possible.

    “What if all the candidates are anti-Islam? (Or at least the two that actually have a chance to win)?”

    Faiez: Vote for the one who is “the lesser of two evils”. Or you can run for president mr. orlando and I’ll vote for you :)

    I agree!

  32. Kashif

    November 12, 2007 at 12:41 AM

    salaam aleikum,

    just for the record, I am Kashif, and i refrained from commenting to see how this thread would develop. I don’t doubt the sincerity of any of the authors behind these posts nor the necessity of discussing this. however looking over the posts on this topic it is blaringly obvious that many many Muslims are uninformed of both the waqiah (reality) of what is going on and why the establishment in this country would want Muslims to vote and assimilate as well as the hukm shari’iah on the concepts of wal’aa and bar’aa (loyalty and allegiance). Specifically:

    1. Muslims didn’t simply vote Republican in 2000 because of some “comments” made by candidates (although there are many groupies and lackeys that may fall in this category). But because the Saudis and their front groups i.e. AMC along with Republican operatives molded that vote in that direction.
    Constructing a “Muslim vote bloc” was the job of Republican operatives working affiliated with *Grover Norquist*. This individual is interesting for the following reasons:

    a. He paid Linda Tripp to record Monica Lewinsky’s phone calls, indeed some blogs and websites, allege that he paid and recruited Monica Lewinsky himself…i.e. the entire Lewinsky affair was his show.

    b. He is a close associate of Jack Abramoff and was/is involved in helping Abramoff peddle influence from the Indian tribes and casinos to the House of Represenatatives.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist#Connections_to_Jack_Abramoff

    c. He is married…..to a Palestinian Muslim women and is heavily connected to “American” Muslim groups such as AMC, CAIR, ISNA, etc. he even had close links with Abdurahman Alamoudi who was caught at Reagan National airport smuggling money

    http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2004/October/04_crm_698.htm
    http://www.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel04/alamoudi073004.htm

    …he says that “jews will never vote republican” and “american” muslims can be natural allies of the Republican party, here are some good references on this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist#Janus-Merritt_Strategies

    http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/media_center/leaders/TNR_110101.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist

    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010514/dreyfuss

    d. his brother, David, was appointed as CFO to the dept. of Homeland Security, and is now..working on getting the “no-fly” list revised

    http://archive.salon.com/politics/war_room/2006/01/19/norquist/

    It would seem that the Saudis and Libyans provided the cash, and Republican operatives (working thru Norquist) provided the direction to mobilize Muslim voters for Bush.
    Now to see them turn on their former supporters and demonize them through the travelling circus known as “islamofascism awareness week” is the height of hypocracy and irony but one lesson sadly Muslims are late to learn — no matter how much you try and assimilate, the establishment sees you for what you are, part of a deen called Islam
    which DOES pose a threat to U.S. interests.

    (cont’d next post)

  33. Shahzad

    November 12, 2007 at 12:37 PM

    Assalamu ‘alaikum,

    Regarding the voting discussion, I have a few questions / points:

    Firstly, is voting an aqeedah issue or an istislaah issue? From an aqeedah perspective, by voting for parties that represent kufr, are we not contradicting laa ilaaha illallah? Philosophically, democracy is all about making people law-makers, rather than Allah and His Prophet. While the mechanisms of democracy (ex: voting, consultation, public participation, representation, etc.) may not be problematic, does not the fact that these mechanisms are being used to vote in kufr systems contradict our basic pledge to Allah?

    The fatwas in favour of voting seem to approach the issue from the perspective of istislaah, that is, if something is beneficial to Muslims, then it is OK. However, in Islamic fiqh, the criterion of istislaah is subservient to more primary criteria such as Quran, Sunnah, Consensus, Qiyaas, etc. That is if parliamentary voting contradicts basic Islamic aqeedah, then we can’t use istislaah. The same argument can be made against allowing interest-based mortgages, etc.

    So the question then is what is the most effective way Muslims can participate and contribute to the societies in which they live? There are so many ways Muslims can participate in civil institutions in a proactive way. Examples: local municipal boards, volunteering, committees at the workplace, etc. Not only will this participation help society at large, but it will create more visibility for Muslims. But most Muslims I know tend to shy away from public participation aside from their own workplaces. This whole voting thing in my view is a smokescreen that distracts Muslims away from more effective, proactive and Islamicaly-agreeable modes of civil participation.

    Allah knows best.

  34. Mahmood

    November 12, 2007 at 5:12 PM

    Assalaamu ‘alaikum.

    Help me out here…

    We live in a country that has a democratic, electoral system. We CHOOSE to live in such a country maybe because we feel an Islamic system does not exist elsewhere. We rightly do not participate in political campaigns and avoid open support of any candidates, especially since their ideologies and mandates are not that of the Truth, Islam. *Our main concern is that Allah (swt) forgives our shortcomings and accepts our undeserving efforts and blesses us with Jannah, by His mercy.* IF there is any aim in this world, it is the establishment of a society which is conducive to the study, acceptance and implementation of the Truth from Allah (swt). We pray that all of humanity embraces this Truth – the Quran as explained by the Rasool (saw) – for we want the approval of Allah (swt) for ourselves and for others.

    Muslims are being terrorized, tortured and killed by “Muslim” and non-Muslim governments. Why? For being Muslim. Ironically, and sadly, many of the oppressed don’t even know what that ‘label’ means. This is a war against Islam.

    IF the country that you CHOOSE to live in (for valid reasons I presume) is the enemy of the Deen of Allah (swt)… and IF there is any candidate (non-Muslim, of course) in your countries who IS NOT anti-Islam; IS anti-war, anti-imperialism, pro-justice, pro-freedom, blah, blah, blah… IF such a man exists and he is sincere (and this is the difficult part to determine, but must be done)… should you (and your fellow Muslims) not then vote-in such a candidate (or at least try to) ONLY for the sake of your brothers and sisters (and NOT because you support him)? What reason is there not to do so, if you can save the believers and protect the Deen without breaking the Laws of Allah (swt)?

    *You know what… I’ve never met Shaykh Ali at-Timimi (only heard his lectures on the net), but I know that he resides in an US prison. May Allah (swt) forgive us. I understand that it is highly improbable for a truly good man to reach the top spot in the US or the UK, but IF it happened and you could secure the release of our most-beloved teacher and others like him, then that in itself would be a more than a worthwhile reason to vote… wa Allahu a’alam.*

    If I am mistaken in my understanding, please correct me.

    Jazaakum Allah khair. Wassalaamu ‘alaikum.

  35. Abu Noor Al-Irlandee

    November 12, 2007 at 8:31 PM

    As salaamu ‘alaykum,

    Mahdi Bray, Jazzak Allaahu Khayr for commenting. Certainly I am not calling for isolating ourselves, I am just questioning the wisdom and importance of voting.

    Shahzad, I completely adopt and endorse your comments, that’s what I am trying to say. Amad, I am not trying to get bogged down in a discussion that’s been going on for years — I am saying why don’t we focus on other things since the community has NO influence on elections anyways, it is a waste of our resources at this point, and the atempts by our leadership to participate and to pretend they represent people they don’t results in distortion of our community’s development, its priorities, etc.

    Faiez, Certainly many of us knew ahead of time that telling Muslims to vote for Bush was a joke and a mistake. Of course when we said so then we were told to respect the community’s leaders and that these people and their stand had the backing of the scholars.

    As Amad mentions in his comments and Kashif further explicates the whole Muslims should be Republicans thing was an organized campaign directed by certain Republicans and embraced by certain immigrant Muslim leadership for a variety of reasons, all of which were bad and were obviously bad at the time.

    Alhamdulillaah Bush has been so unabashedly wicked that we are rid of this type of movement, at least for as long as people remember (probably about 4 years).

    Allaah knows best.

  36. Abu Noor Al-Irlandee

    November 12, 2007 at 9:22 PM

    As salaamu ‘alaykum Mahmood,

    Jazzak Allaahu Khayr for your heartfelt and beautiful thoughts. May Allaah (swt) free Shaykh Ali al-Timimi, Imam Jamil Al-Amin.

    If I thought by casting a vote for someone that they would be freed, I would do so.

    Such is not the case…we have a harder road to follow.

    The dua’ of a sincere and righteous person is worth much more than a vote.

    Allaah knows best.

  37. Kashif

    November 13, 2007 at 2:14 PM

    (cont’d from earlier post)

    salaam aleikum

    rather interesting. I will try and keep this brief and to be fair, attach an article detailing how the Democratic party used self-promoters and “American” Muslim organizations to promote its own agenda.

    1. >We CHOOSE to live in such a country >maybe because we feel an Islamic system >does not exist elsewhere.

    a. Many Muslims (including converts) were born and raised here. They are not going anywhere nor do they feel they have to. The America “love it or leave it” argument doesn’t work on non-immigrants and is a cop-out to run away from confronting difficult issues ideological and political issues. Furthermore, the only one’s who have the right to say this, are Native Americans, and they have been deliberately confined onto reservations as a matter of national policy stretching back to colonial times.
    b. If there is no masjid around anywhere in a locale, does that mean i stop praying? similarly, if Islam is NOT implemented anywhere, does that mean I stop working for it?

    2. >IF there is any candidate (non-Muslim, of >course) in your countries who IS NOT >anti-Islam; IS anti-war, anti-imperialism, >pro-justice, pro-freedom, blah, blah, blah… >IF such a man exists and he is sincere (and >this is the difficult part to determine, but >must be done)… should you (and your fellow >Muslims) not then vote-in such a candidate >(or at least try to) ONLY for the sake of your >brothers and sisters (and NOT because you >support him)? What reason is there not to >do so,

    Allah (swt) is the reason. The act of legislation (just like creation) is one of his 99 names and is his attributes. This is why he is called al Hakim (or the judge or arbiter).
    This is explicitly laid out in surah al Maida v. 47-50 and is covered in more detail in the link I gave above. There is some textual evidence that would also indicate that one who knows this and deliberately goes about disobeying Him in this is committing shirk (associating partners with God).

    3. Securing the release of Sheikh Al Tamimi

    a. Could I commit haram to accomplish a halal i.e. could i set up a liquor store in black neighborhood and use the proceeds to fund Sheikh Al Tamimi’s legal fees to secure his release? why not?
    b. similarly if the act of legislation and law giving is an attribute of Allah (Swt) am i staying true to the message of Allah (swt) by disobeying him to secure my own much needed benefit?
    c. What did the prophet (saw) do or NOT do when Bilal was tortured?
    d. There were many “Progressive” Muslims who were very happy to see him go to jail,
    and said so on their blogs and podcasts.

    The deafening silence of these “American” Muslim organizations at his trial and conviction speaks for itself. It is non-Muslim legal scholars (such as Johnathon Turley at George Washing Univ.) who are left to take up his case purely on the basis of fearing the Bush Administration is using his case as an attempt to grab more power.

    Very similar to how the AMC were delighted to see Omar Abdel Rahman go to jail in the early 1990s after the first World Trade Center bombing and issued a press release praising his convicition. In the end, self interest and self preservation trumps any superficial loyalty to Islam and Muslims these people profess.

    and i’ll close with this well written article by the group MER run by Mark Bruzonsky (leftist Jew from Chomsky circles). Having talked to some non-Muslim staffers and govt. aides, the article is pretty accurate in their opinion:
    —————————-
    source: http://www.middleeast.org/archives/1998_05_30.htm

    salaam aleikum,
    Kashif

  38. Amad

    November 13, 2007 at 8:58 PM

    salam Br. Kashif, you have pretty much dissed every Islamic organization in America and you have also shown disdain for scholars abroad.

    So, let me ask you a couple of answers and I would appreciate straight-up answers:

    1) Which scholars do you actually follow? And not to let you escape via the taqleed clause… if you tell us that you don’t follow any scholars, then which scholars you look up to or admire?
    2) If you don’t follow any scholars, and follow your own “ijtihad”, where did you get the authority to do so? What have you acquired in terms of Islamic knowledge to tell the Ummah what is halal and what is haram over and above the scholars of the Ummah?

    So, let’s get this out of the way because it seems that we are arguing on two fundamentally different platforms.

  39. Kashif

    November 13, 2007 at 11:46 PM

    salaam aleikum,

    interesting response.

    1. I didn’t “diss” any organization, rather put up links showing what past associations and partnerships they kept which brought us to this point today — Muslims having “elected” Bush in 2000 who then subsequently went on to spend nearly $1.2 trillion to bomb, kill, and occupy other Muslims in both Iraq and Afghanistan. These people have blood on their hands, pure and simple.

    2. I don’t worship sheikhs, organizations, or individuals. By worship, let me be 100% blunt:
    “NO SHEIKH, SCHOLAR, OR ORGANIZATION HAS THE POWER TO MAKE THE HARAM HALAL NO MATTER HOW LONG HIS BEARD HIS, HOW MANY FOLLOWERS HE CLAIMS, OR HOW MANY LETTERS THAT FOLLOW HIS NAME”

    this hadeeth should make things clearer:

    Uday was one of the leaders of his tribe, and his father, Haatim Al-Taa’i, was famous for his generosity. ‘Uday then proceeded to Madina and the people there began talking about his coming. When he entered upon the Messenger of Allah, sallAllahu ‘alayhi wasallam, he was wearing a silver cross around his neck; the Messenger of Allah, sallAllahu ‘alayhi wasallam, was reciting the verse
    ‘They have taken their rabbis and priests as lords other than God, and the Messiah, son of Mary; and they were commanded to worship none but One God. There is no god but He, glory be to Him above what they associate with Him!” (5:31)

    When he heard this ‘Uday said: “We did not worship them”. He (the Prophet) replied: “Yes you did. They (the Rabbis and Priests) made what was Halal into Haram for them, and what was Haram into Halal for them, and they (the people) followed them; THAT was their worshipping them”.

    and I agree with you, many people use taqlid and fatwa shopping as a cover for choosing to remain ignorant rather than researching and educating themselves about an issue. If that is the case, you are more than welcome to continue, since I cannot preach to the converted.

    3. I didn’t “make up” my own ijtihad or madhab. A basic rule of usul is that the person making a claim that X or Y was/is halal or is from Islam has to furnish the EVIDENCE for that act BEFORE acting. This is well known basic rule of fiqh.

    4. I don’t claim any authority per se but as a Muslim I have a right to question those who self declare themselves as “leaders” of Muslims and claim to act and endorse politicians in my name i.e. in the name of Muslims/Islam. Who gave them this authority? You? Uncle Sam? the Saudis?
    The lack of public accountability is something that is common in the dictatorships that dominate the Muslim World, and as the link from MER shows, permeates “American” Muslim organizations as well. Everything from the finances (with Libyans and Saudis funneling money thru middlemen) to the political side with the endorsement of Bush (to date NOT ONE individual has publicly apologized or resigned for that decision — WHY?)
    With no public accountability of “sheikhs” and organizations, it is a miracle that anything gets done at all actually.

    5. In the end if someone wants to do something they will find a way to do it, even seeking out others to legitimize their acts. Human beings were given free choice and free will by Allah (swt) for this very reason. Know that even if you do decide to pursue this course of action(s) you aren’t fooling anyone but yourself.

    regards,
    K

  40. Amad

    November 14, 2007 at 9:28 AM

    salam Kashif
    1) You didn’t answer my question. I didn’t ask you which scholar you worship (and I understand the definition), I asked you which scholar do you follow for advice. For instance, if you need to know the ahkaam of hajj or a fine point in Zakat, who would you turn to? For issues of Muslim importance, which scholar do you admire?

    2) I am sure you have made some misjudgments in your life, haven’t you? That you chose to support something or follow a course of action between two choices that later turned out to be wrong? So many of the Muslim organizations made a mistake in 2000 (voting for Bush), a costly mistake no doubt, but still a mistake. And we know that everything that happens is good for Muslims, though we may not know the wisdom and see the goodness.

    3) Do you really believe that the scholars from around the globe issue these fatwas and rulings without evidences and proofs? What worldly motivations do these scholars in the East have to recommend voting for people in the West? Don’t you think it is defamatory and Islamically wrong to accuse scholars of having ulterior motivations besides the deen? Who are we to judge their intentions and their sincerity?

  41. Kashif

    November 14, 2007 at 11:37 AM

    salaam aleikum,

    this is going in circles. Especially since it seems you have already predetermined what you are going to do and are simply finding ways to justify it.

    1. If i am going to conduct an act or do something individually, I will spend months researching it and ask as many people as I possibly can (even those who I consider shallow and weak in their understanding). But when I ask, I will ask seeking WHAT EVIDENCE do they sight claiming so and so is halal or haram. One clear example is that many of these Islamic banks are simply using and charging riba by another name, while others are doing their best to comply though there terms are very difficult. I am not gonna go by a bank’s claim that it is “100% shari’ah compliant” rather look at the terms of the contract, take notes on it, and then research it up and down. It is called due dilligence.
    Obediance is to the naql (the text) not the aql (the mind).

    2. Whatever misjudgments i’ve ever made have been individual ones i.e. they have made a detrimental impact on my life. However, I never claimed to do a haram in the name of Islam or in the name of a community using its name the way these organizations have. This article here explains the concepts of
    “amr bil maruf wa nahy anil munkar”
    “enjoining the good and forbiding the evil.” which is mentioned over 70 times in the Quran.
    The early tribes of bani Isra’il were explicitly condemned by Allah (swt) because they saw each other’s munkar (evil) and no one condemned it using the old “who are you to judge me?” line:

    http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/movement00/amr-maruf.htm

    please read the paragraph talking about lying on an individual basis vs. lying as a community or in the name of a collective and why the latter is infinitely worse.

    3. Are you really that criminally naive to believe that shaikhs cannot be bought and sold like commodities on the open market?
    Do you really think that this is something new or that the neo-cons are not smart enough to think of this? Isn’t this what Petraus is currently doing with the sunni tribes and shaikhs in Iraq? Here is one drag queen look alike from inside the green zone:

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/07/31/MNGDM80L0P1.DTL

    Napoleon Bonaparte when he took over Egypt and installed a puppet dynasty (using Ismailis) he couldn’t get the shaikhs to legitimize this so he set about killing the ones that said it was haram and installing and funding the ones that agreed with it. This was the notes of one sincere brother talking about how it was done at Al Azhar and how lasting colonialism was perpetrated:

    http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/features99/dest-west.htm

    If the U.S. had sophistication like the French and British they would be doing this over time so that their occupation is a lasting one.

    4. Lastly, if you are going to hide behind worshipping scholars and using taqlid to excuse away laziness and deliberate ignorance. Than I would only ask that you be consistent. The attached articles on that subject that you have posted openly say that if one chooses to practice taqlid one should do it in “all things” not “shop around”. Therefore, if you accept “voting” from these shaikhs, you MUST accept the following:

    a. you have NO right to oppose the war in Iraq since these same shaikhs legitimized the U.S. occupation of Saudi Arabia in the 1991 Mecca Document fatwa. The no fly zone enforced under Clinton from 1992-2001 (in which 500,000 kids died a year) sprung from this as well as the neo-cons second invasion in 2003. I posted the link on this earlier.

    b. You should be breast feeding every single
    male that you wish to consider a mahram per this fatwa recounted in the NY Times:

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/11/news/fatwa.php

    this is the best line which was from an egyptian newspaper on the subject:

    ‘Men are breast crazy beasts’, Sheikh Ezzat Attiya told viewers…’so breastfeeding her male colleagues should give a woman a sense of safety and security….By suckling them, she will make them feel like children, religious and biologically……I suggest a minimum of 5 sucks for each male colleague’.

    Sheikh Ezzat Attiya, a controversial cleric who chairs the Department of Hadith at Al-Azhar University, insisted his advice was consistent with Sharia Law.

    c. According to the same article above, drinking the prophet’s urine will help you “smell the fragrance of jannah”. So con artists in Egypt and Syria have been selling vials of lemone juice and water claiming it was the Prophet’s urine. Again, if you wish to practice taqlid please be consistent.

    d. You should endorse women led prayer.
    Why? Because the “shaikh” of al Azhar gave a fatwa endorsing it to the “progressive” Muslims when they were pullling that stunt:

    “On Arab television, Sheikh Ali Gum’a states that women are permitted to lead mixed-gender congregational prayers as long as the COMMUNITY AGREES TO IT. ”

    http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/2005/03/thank_you_sheik.php

    e. There are also fatwas endorsing gay marriage and homosexuality, again you have no right to oppose them if that is the case.
    the link is in Arabic so i will see if i can get a translation.

    f. You shouldn’t oppose “Islamofascism” awareness week because there were “traditional” sheikhs who not only invented the term but used it in interviews themselves, (as per Stephen Schwartz).

    “Yes, I think there is a real risk from ignorant people who have no respect for divergent opinions. There are MUSLIM FASCISTS who are intellectually bankrupt. The only way they can argue is to eliminate the voices they don’t agree with.”

    source (last paragraph): http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,564960,00.html

    U.S. army manual quoting another “traditional” scholar here:

    “What Qutb fails to inform his vanguard, however, is that the code of conduct he subsequently elaborated in his commentary on the Koran matches that of Carrel much more than Muhammad’s own Traditions. The result is not an indigenous form of governance, but a Third World version of IslamoFascism.”

    Abdel-Hakim Murad commenting on Syed Qutbs tafseer of the Quran.
    Fi Zilal al-Qur’an (In the shades of the Qur’an)

    http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/07spring/eikmeier.pdf
    ————————————————
    In the end there is Allah (swt) and his messenger and there is kufr. The two cannot be one and the same no matter how many “sheikhs” and “scholars” try to blur that definition.

    salaam aleikum,
    Kashif

  42. Amad

    November 14, 2007 at 3:08 PM

    It is called due dilligence.
    Obediance is to the naql (the text) not the aql (the mind).

    Very easy to say but very difficult to implement, esp. when the texts could have various interpretations. This is a good slogan, but that’s about all it is. In fact, your strategy of finding out haram and halal could be a recipe for disaster, either in the form of extremism of completely liberalism. Without the knowledge of Arabic, usool al-fiqh, hadith and the various sciences of Islam, it is arrogant to believe that one has the faculty to deduct rulings for oneself.

    Now you say that you ask as “many people as you can”, but you are assuming that laymen have the ability to distinguish and discern evidences. You will not find scholars saying this, and I suggest that you read the The truth about taqlid if you care. The more one learns Islamic sciences, the more one realizes that they are not as black and white as one may have originally thought about them.

    You still of course haven’t answered my question regarding your “Shayookh” and I use this term generally. Who are the people that you mention you ask “as many as you can”? It seems that you wish to hide this fact, because if you ask most of us, which scholars we look up to, there won’t be much hesitation in laying it out. So, let me cut to the chase, and ask you what you feel about the “jihadists” who are causing havoc for the Muslims, like OBL? I only ask you this because your talk is very similar to the talk of these people, who, like you, believe that nearly all the Shayookh are “bought and sold” (I hope that you are prepared for the consequence of such a heavy accusation on the Day of Judgment if you are wrong). So then please tell us if you this is where you are coming from, and if not, then which scholars should Muslims go to? Even to do what you suggest, ask for answers with proofs?

    Please do not spin the questions with 10 paragraphs of unrelated materials and more accusations… I would appreciate it if you would stick to the questions being asked. People generally don’t read long drawn comments, thats just a suggestion.

  43. Pingback: Why a Unique American Muslim Culture? (Part 2) « Muslim Thought

  44. Kashif

    November 16, 2007 at 10:06 AM

    Interesting, more sideshow, spin, innuendo and half truths from you but no real substance to anything that was originally said at the top — a “saudi sheikh council” giving you a justification for assimilation/voting. No real evidence that was cited for their opinon/fatwa, just the fact that they are “shaikhs” and we must all bow and prostrate ourselves to them.

    as for this:
    >Without the knowledge of Arabic, usool >al-fiqh, hadith and the various sciences of >Islam, it is arrogant to believe that one has >the faculty to deduct rulings for oneself.

    granted not everyone has the ability to extract rulings and that was not what was being said. However, anyone to whom a ruling is given does have a right to ask for where the EVIDENCE from Quran and Sunnah came from and whether or not that evidence fits the context to which this ruling is being applied. Asking for daleel and an explanation of that daleel is a right of a Muslim no matter how much you, your sheikhs, or the dictators in the Muslim world wish to tape people’s mouths shut and forbid that.

    >You still of course haven’t answered my >question regarding your “Shayookh” and I >use this term generally. Who are the people >that you mention you ask “as many as you >can”? It seems that you wish to hide this >fact, because if you ask most of us, which >scholars we look up to, there won’t be much >hesitation in laying it out.

    This may prove shocking, and you may need to step out of your bubble a bit, but not everyone worships sheikhs or practices blind madhabism. Each of the four imams always emphasized that they could be right with the possibility of being wrong, and if they were in error, their opinion was to be discarded and the stronger opinion was to be taken.

    Furthermore, Islam does not have a centralized authority; there is no universally recognized council of scholars or clerics who speak on behalf of all Muslims or Islam.

    With freedom from clerical authority, however, comes the responsibility to engage in the debate over the true meaning of Islam. Islamic law states that silence is an indication of consent. If Muslims do not reject the perverted interpretations of the Qur’an offered by the state-employed sheikhs you worship and cited (detailed in the links i posted above) or people who justify violence in the name of Islam they will have shirked their responsibility to define the real meaning of Islam.
    So for the last time, I worship Allah (swt) and follow the sunnah of his last messenger and not sheikhs. You are free to do otherwise as there is no compulsion in islam.

    >So, let me cut to the chase, and ask you >what you feel about the “jihadists” who are >causing havoc for the Muslims, like OBL? I >only ask you this because your talk is very >similar to the talk of these people,

    I consider the “jihadists” the same way I consider the assimilationists/integrationists — enantiomers/mirror images or 2 sides of the same coin really. Considering:

    a. the “Jihadists” claim that their senseless acts of nihilistic violence have sanction in islam and that the end “benefit” is for Muslims, when all the empirical EVIDENCE points in the opposite direction — More muslims are killed and oppressed as a result of their actions and more harm than good is done.
    You and your “sheikhs” who endorse this line of assimilation and cronyism use the same justifications (this is “benefit” for Muslims) with the same disastrous results — Bush elected to power and twice as many Muslims killed and oppressed as under the previous administration.

    b. the “jihadists” claim that they have “shaikhs” i.e. Bin Laden, Abdullah Azzam, who give “fatwas” sanctioning their murderous acts in the name of Islam and that any questioning of the “fatwa” amounts to criticizing the individual/group and is thus off limits.
    your defense of the “voting fatwa” echoes this nearly symettrically. The fact that your sole claim for “evidence” for voting is a council of saudi govt. funded “shaikhs” putting out a “fatwa” means that any questioning of that “fatwa” the saudi govt. that funds them and its motives is off limits — you have to bow to a “shaikh” before you can ask or be a “shaikh” in order to question it!

    c. “Jihadists” claim that when Muslims are killed as a result of their actions, they should be given the benefit of the doubt as their “intentions” were pure. They don’t really take any responsibility for their actions or its effects.
    When Bush murders Muslims after having people like you elect them, you make the exact same argument:
    “Many mistakes will be made and we will only grow if we learn from them, not run and hide after making them. We joined the Bush bandwagon because he did make certain comments that were positive for Muslims,…”

    So NO for the record i don’t follow the “jihadists” nor you and your sheikhs as the two use the same bankrupted logic to arrive at the same disastrous end. You are simply one and the same.

    >Please do not spin the questions with 10 >paragraphs of unrelated materials and more >accusations… I would appreciate it if you >would stick to the questions being asked. >People generally don’t read long drawn >comments, thats just a suggestion.

    Answering a cheap insult like this is easy. However, the only one that was and still is “spinning” anything is you. You began this thread with a posting justifying voting based on a fatwa put out by “sheikhs”. Links and evidence were posted showing that these VERY SAME sheikhs put out fatwas justifying U.S. troops in saudi arabia in 1991, women led prayer, women breastfeeding men to make them mahram, ALONGSIDE VOTING. hence, you are not telling the entire truth of WHAT ELSE they have said in the past besides voting, seems the zionists are not the only ones who try and conceal the truth.

    secondly, you were asked DIRECT QUESTIONS which is at the heart of this issue and which were never answered:

    >a. Is Ruling by Islam fardh?
    >b. Is voting for politicians to commit haram >(to rule by kufr instead) something that is >allowed in the shari’ah?

    If you still desire to preserve any credibility you can feel free to attempt an answer (an NO your sheikh is NOT an evidence), if not your silence will speak volumes.

    lastly, I will not make any more posts on this thread or blog as I don’t normally engage in “discussions” with people who have already made up their minds on an issue — for the very same reason that i don’t waste time arguing with Jehovah’s witnesses or Mormons. They have their minds set on what their beliefs are and despite presentation of rational proofs to the contrary, one is to believe that Jesus is “lord” and “savior” purely on “blind faith”. Animals are conditioned this way, human beings were given an intellect and a mind in order to be able to exercise and use it. In some cases it is a “sin” and a crime to do so.

    regards,
    Kashif

  45. Mohammad Murphy

    July 22, 2010 at 11:52 PM

    Indian Music is really cool and some of it are great dance music too.~’:

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