Israel’s “Retaliatory” Killing Machine Fully Justified

51 Comments

1. 

   Sameer

   March 5, 2008 at 11:11 AM

   salaam aleikum,

   what was/is left unsaid in this article is that the cage around Palestinians is also maintained by 2 Arab countries — Jordan and Egypt on behalf of the UK and USA and Israel respectively. Hizbullah was able to put up resistance because the Syrians allowed their territory to be used for running supply lines through to Lebanon. Egypt and Jordan having their useless armies defeated by Israel in war refuse to do the same for the Palestinians, hence Israel can do what it wants with only token resistance.

   Reply
2. 

   Musa Maguire

   March 5, 2008 at 11:44 AM

   But is there any explanation for Hamas launching these rockets other than total incompetence as leaders? Is there any strategy to what they do at all?

   Reply
3. 

   Amad

   March 5, 2008 at 11:51 AM

   Does a desperate and hopeless people have the mental awareness to strategize, considering that the powers-to-be have already decided how its going to play out?

   If a bully kept taking away your lunch, kept slapping you, and the principal/teachers decided that the bully has full right to do so, then wouldn’t you eventually snap? I know this is a strech analogy, but there is a lot of truth to this simplistic view.

   Reply
4. 

   Sameer

   March 5, 2008 at 11:56 AM

   salaam aleikum,

   sadly it is easy for Muslims not sitting inside of a hell hole to say this, this article this morning in the Guardian does a MUCH better job than anything in American papers or even most ‘Muslim’ sites for that matter:

   http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/mar/05/israelandthepalestinians.usa

   secondly, Bush and co. are constantly lecturing Muslims about “freedom and democracy”. That is all good, unless you vote for a party the U.S. doesn’t like, than they try and covertly overthrow it, as detailed and admitted for the first time here:

   http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/04/usa.israelandthepalestinians

   http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804?printable=true&currentPage=all

   Reply
5. 

   emanuel appel

   March 5, 2008 at 11:56 AM

   Sir,

   Gaza was evacuated by Israel and in response, Israel has been continually attacked by the Gaza Arabs.

   The real issue is that a sovereign State is being attacked without provocation and it will defend itself whether it suffers one casualty or one million.

   It is a typical Arab logical process to maintain that it’s ok to shell you because my weapons are crude and inaccurate. Likewise, it’s ok for me to slap you because you’re a dhimmi.

   The Arab position in the Land of Israel is that they seek to destroy it by all means, either military or political. Getting their own Palestinian State will not end it since they also demand flooding another State and culture with “refugees” from 1948. Actually, why not refugees from the Mongol or Crusader wars?

   If the Arab mind cannot live with political compromise ( you will never, ever get “justice”), then it will be a war of annihilation. If that is the only thing to satisfy you, so be it.

   Reply
6. 

   Sameer

   March 5, 2008 at 12:00 PM

   Emanuel,

   could you kindly explain what this comment has in relation to your comment:

   “If I were an Arab leader, I would NEVER sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault?
   They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

   — David Ben Gurion

   (Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121)

   Reply
7. 

   Dawud Israel

   March 5, 2008 at 12:03 PM

   Palestine. -sigh-

   This…

   is the meaning of frustration and the greatest test of patience we have come to know.

   :(

   Reply
8. 

   Amad

   March 5, 2008 at 12:20 PM

   Its amazing how basic facts are wrapped up in propaganda.

   These refugees, no need for quotations, there are millions of them ALIVE and KICKING, were forced to flee their own homes, and their properties, and their homes occupied by foreigners. Muddying the water with vague and useless references to ancient conflicts is just a way to divert attention from ground-reality. Can you find people who claim historical right to being displaced by crusaders or mongols? Of course not, so stop playing word games.

   These refugees, many of them actually the ones displaced, know exactly where their homes are and their lands are, stolen by the zionists. There is no corollary to your nonsensical comparisons to historical conflicts. Next time someone takes over your house and kicks you out into refugee camps, I’ll be sure to remind you of the mongols!

   As for annihilation, they have already talked about holocaust of palestinians, so the israeli state terrorists are no longer mincing words on their true intentions. Genocide. Thank you for admitting it.

   Reply
9. 

   Musa Maguire

   March 5, 2008 at 12:26 PM

   Emanuel,

   Racist explanations of the “Arab mind” and “Arab logic” don’t really help us to understand what’s going on. I’m sure you would not approve of collective punishment against Israelis being justified as a response to the “Jewish mind” or “Jewish logic”, or “it’s the only language that Jews understand.”

   Amad,

   The fact is that Hamas has put itself in a position of leadership. I don’t think it is unreasonble that they make some effort at strategy. One of the common critcisms of the Palestinian side is that they suffer from lack of good leadership, and this is absolutely true. The flip side, of course, is that Israel doesn’t really want the Palestinians to have good leadership, because their position would be much stronger.

   Reply
10. 

    emanuel appel

    March 5, 2008 at 1:25 PM

    To Sameer and Musa Maguire

    Dear Sameer,

    Using quotations from 60 years ago to solve the present Arab problems is typical fo Arab failure.

    Israel’s flexible imagination enables it to analyze and plan, unlike the Arab mind. Ben- Gurion was simply stating in an indirect way that Israel can expect long years of warfare until total victory. I would say the same thing to those Israelis who naively think that “negotiations” are possible with Hamas/ PLO. Most Israelis are not raised with Arab values and if I have to explain them, I don’t want to.

    Dear Musa Maguire

    I’m assuming that you’re a convert by your last name.

    It’s funny to hear Western converts talk against “collective punishment” when it’s the Arabs that have been handing it out to Israel and the West since 1948.

    Indiscriminate acts of terror against Israeli civilians have been the norm since 1948. Yet, when we dish it out in return, the Arab/Moslems start crying like little babies as if they are entitled to be shielded from the wars that they start. No sir, war is like a tennis match.

    The whole of Israel’s population is a target for Arab/ Moslem fanatics beginning in 1948 after the armistice was signed. When they get hit back, they start crying about this martyr or that martyr. They love martyrs, let’s face it, and they use corpses for propaganda. So, don’t start any guilt trip here. Only those who show pity are entitled to it; otherwise, shut up and fight.

    Reply
11. 

    abu ameerah

    March 5, 2008 at 1:55 PM

    Hamas are extremist takfireeee-jihadist terrorists:

    therefore, it is haram for “mainstream” Muslims to support them…right?

    (let alone give a damn about their welfare)

    Reply
12. 

    ibnabeeomar

    March 5, 2008 at 1:59 PM

    http://ds6.fileflyer.com/d/b57547bb-9079-49c1-a36a-79b2e5cdd084/GZvY/Gaza3.jpg

    Reply
13. 

    Sameer

    March 5, 2008 at 1:59 PM

    Emmanuel,

    I loved that response. When the “founder” of your country is himself acknowledging that the validity of your claim to the land on which the nation exists is bogus, you then dress it up as “history”. Face it you are a nation of blood soaked terrorists who could not exist but for UK political planning and U.S. funds. 3 more quotes of note:

    1) more recent history:

    “I would have joined a terrorist organization.”

    — Ehud Barak’s response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha’aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

    source: http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm

    2) More from your founder:

    “Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”

    — David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

    3) “A lie should be tried in a place where it will attract the attention of the world.”

    — Ariel Sharon

    >They love martyrs, let’s face it, and they use >corpses for propaganda. So, don’t start any >guilt trip here. Only those who show pity are >entitled to it; otherwise, shut up and fight.

    fair enough, then why do you cry over the Holocaust? Why milk it to file lawsuits against other countries and multinational companies?

    Reply
14. 

    Musa Maguire

    March 5, 2008 at 2:15 PM

    Emanuel,

    By “collective punishment”, I was referring to the targeting of civilians by both Israel and Palestinian groups like Hamas.

    As for the long history of Arab aggression against Israel, this is a myth that only works on those who are ignorant and uninformed. That is not to deny the use of terrorism by Palestinian groups, the corruption of Arab regimes, the invocation of European anti-Semitism in Arab propaganda, foolish acts of provocation, etc. But the fact remains that Zionist settlers COLONIZED Palestine. That is the root of the “sovereign state” of Israel. And the fact remains that Israel OCCUPIED the West Bank and Gaza and maintained its control through a liberal use of force. You cannot just erase the history of Israeli aggression.

    I agree that Ben Gurion was a great leader of his people, and the Arabs have never known a comparable figure in the modern era. But also understand that Islam has never really been a factor in this conflict beyond a rhetorical level. Islam is used as a component of Arab nationalism, which is basically a modern form of the tribalism that Islam came to eliminate.

    In any case, if you are concerned about the safety of Israel, then don’t worry. It is likely that you could live out your life in perfect safety and comfort under the Israeli flag. The Arab regimes are hopelessly weak and corrupt, and the ostensibly Islamic movements have disgraced themselves with terrorism and unprincipled politics.

    You should, however, worry about your relationship to God, who is the owner of all power and might. You should reflect on the meaning of life here on earth, and the fate that awaits you in the Hereafter. If you live estranged from God, then comfort and ease are actually a curse. Life is short, and the Hereafter is eternal. And Islam is the only path to success. That means believing in God as the only one worthy of worship, and accepting all of the Prophets, those sent the Children of Israel, such as Moses and Jesus, and the final Prophet, Muhammad, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. Why don’t you become Muslim so you can become part of the solution to all that ails humanity, according to the way that is pleasing to God?

    Reply
15. 

    Amad

    March 5, 2008 at 4:01 PM

    The morally upright IDF terrorists

    Reply
16. 

    emanuel appel

    March 5, 2008 at 4:14 PM

    Dear Sameer,

    It is obvious that your understanding of subtle argument is zero.

    Ok, continue to live your Arab fantasies and in 400 years you may have to accept the situation that exists today. But, you’ll be happy having lived in garbage rather than adjust.

    Dear Maguire,

    The Arabs/Moslems can stop this today if they want to. They are happy with martyrs.

    You’re saying that Arab aggression against Israel is a myth is contradicted by our coffins. However, you wish to ignore history for Arab tales of woe. Good. Be happy but all the others you come in contact with will say “ignoramus” when you speak.

    Regarding my relationship with God – it’s really none of your business and quite cheeky. I don’t need a Moslem of all people preaching to me. It’s like asking a whore about family life. Look out for your own relationship.

    ***Edited*** Mohamed, who started in the religion business by stealing Jewish and Christian ideas, is the last person I’d look to for religious advice after asking a pimp for his.

    -Comment edited. Obviously you don’t know how to be respectful when you are in someone’s “house”. True colors shining through, when you have nothing coherent in terms of argument, you drop down to name-calling and disrespect. -MM

    Reply
17. 

    emanuel appel

    March 5, 2008 at 4:15 PM

    what’s the matter boys, you don’t want to publish my comments? can’t take it , huh!
    
    -On the contrary, when you argue in a disciplined manner, your comments are welcome. If you resort to 3rd grade-level name-calling, then this blog is for adults -Amad

    Reply
18. 

    emanuel appel

    March 5, 2008 at 4:32 PM

    Dear MM

    It’s quite funny you lecturing me about “respect” when Moslems show none to Jews, calling them apes and pigs – not from the vulgar- but by Imams and “holy men”.

    When you give peace, love, and respect to others, you will get them in return. Until then, you get back what you put out.

    This is not your “house”. This is the Internet which is equally MY house. In the same manner, you don’t show Israel respect in their house so how can you ask for it back? Oh, I forgot, you’re Arab and or Moslem.

    -Actually Emanuel, the internet may be everyone’s house. But this is OUR blog. A blog run by Muslims. And we will moderate any comments that are disrespectful or disparaging about our religion or Prophets (S). And if you persist, we can and will ban you.

    As far as your reference to “vulgar” statements, if you can find any posts here where we disparaged anyone’s religion, race or color, then let’s talk. But you won’t find any, because we are not here to bash others’ religions or beliefs. Obviously we are not responsible for anything off the blog. -MM

    Reply
19. 

    Musa Maguire

    March 5, 2008 at 4:46 PM

    Emanuel,

    You are promoting the myth that Israel has only ever acted in self defense. That is absurd. I can recognize the violence for what it is on both sides.

    As for your comments on Islam and our Prophet, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, you are only harming yourself. Allah says:

    40. O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and fulfill My covenant [upon you] that I will fulfill your covenant [from Me], and be afraid of [only] Me.

    41. And believe in what I have sent down confirming that which is [already] with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And do not exchange My signs for a small price, and fear [only] Me.

    Reply
20. 

    theManOfFewWords

    March 5, 2008 at 6:07 PM

    I DISAGREE …

    busy man’s rebuttal

    Reply
21. 

    emanuel appel

    March 5, 2008 at 6:22 PM

    To Musa Maguire

    Well Musa Maguire, you can hold on to your historical opinions if you want. A chronicle of the times will make most people disagree with you.

    Let see, in 1948, a group fo 600,000 Israelis held off a combined Arab Army bent on destroying their nation. So, Israelis attacked the whole Arab world accoridng to your notions. OK, that is what most people outside of Islam would call insane but I will not fight Moslem logic. It’s pointless.

    Now, the point of this thread is Gaza. They, the Arabs, can stop the violence by not firing rockets into another country, Israel. But, they won’t because they like it and because they like to have dead babies to point out to the press. In the meantime, people here cry crocodile tears for their fellows instead of telling them to stop this insane policy.

    Gaza and the West Bank VOTED Hamas into power. They like them. Ok, live with your choice but don’t whine like a baby when the consequences appear.

    Finally, this whole thing stops once you acknowledge Israel and that you lost in 1948. You are NOT returning to the Land of Israel. You will not have TWO Palestinian States – one in the West Bank and another inside of Israel.

    The Palestinian State exists today in Jordan. Go there and be happy.

    Reply
22. 

    WM

    March 5, 2008 at 6:42 PM

    Hamas fires a pop gun and Israel acts like it’s facing some kind of existential crisis.

    Reply
23. 

    emanuel appel

    March 5, 2008 at 7:46 PM

    Dear Wm,

    I walk up to you, slap your face, and then complain that you overrreact if you hit me back . It’s an existential crisis.

    Dear Amira,

    We will fight on our terms, not yours.

    You deny our nationhood, you insult us every day, you deny that our people were slaughtered in Europe, you call us “pigs and apes” in your religious sites but we’re supposed to turn the other cheek. NO ma’am.

    You have the nerve to ask “why I gotta hate” after reading the above, you are pretty …..

    Again, this thing stops when you accept our country, Israel and you stop shooting at us or trying to blow us up. Until then, bury your babies and keep quiet.

    Reply
24. 

    theManOfFewWords

    March 5, 2008 at 7:51 PM

    I dont understand y the Muslim haters waste their time ….

    Emmanuel, is obviously not trying to convince anybody by being so aggressive, incoherent and disrespectful.

    I dont like Zionists but I dont got to their sites and start messing with them for no reason.

    I think Emmanuel here is frustrated by something, maybe some “shortcomings” and this is his release. Well, Emmanuel, y dont you go to a therapist and get your release there.

    BTW Emmanuel, Israel is the failure … but it would take a smarter man to understand that … ill save my typing for that guy.

    Reply
25. 

    theManOfFewWords

    March 5, 2008 at 8:17 PM

    ahem … let me translate what emanuel just said in Palestinian Arabic … maybe then he will understand:

    We will fight on our terms, not yours.

    You deny our nationhood, you insult us every day, you deny that our people are being slaughtered in Palestine by your occupation, you call us “Goyim and terrorists” in your religious sites but we’re supposed to turn the other cheek. NO sir.

    You have the nerve to ask “why I gotta hate” after reading the above, you are pretty …..

    Again, this thing stops when you accept our country, Palestineand you stop shooting at us or trying to blow us up. Until then, bury your babies and keep quiet.

    It’s cool because it’s interchangeable … now do you understand y Zionists will never live in peace?

    Reply
26. 

    Amad

    March 5, 2008 at 9:12 PM

    you deny that our people were slaughtered in Europe

    I believe that the majority of Muslims do not deny that Jews were slaughtered in Europe. Some may question the actual number, but rest assured, the holocaust was a crime against humanity that ought never to be repeated again.

    But, you know what, that kind of happened in Europe. No Palestinians, Arabs or Muslims were involved in any role of influence in the holocaust. Why did “your people” decide then, that in return for this injustice, you would inflict injustice to “other people” by stealing their lands and making their people refugees?

    Why didn’t you direct your anger towards those responsible for the holocaust, not poor Palestinians? More importantly, don’t you find it paradoxical that while “your people” went through such a tragic genocide, that you would then want to repeat it upon “other people”? Why are the “victims” (which you represent “your people” as) becoming the victimizers, to the point of telling “other people” to go and “bury their babies”? Why aren’t “your people” instead standing up most strongly against discrimination based on religion or race, considering “your” history? Why instead have “your people” instituted an apartheid-like system where anyone else other Jews are second-class citizens? Don’t these policies remind you of Hitler’s Germany?

    Remember Emanuel, God is Just. He does not forgive injustice coming from anyone, be it Jews or Muslims. If today your nation has the power over the weak Palestinians, you know well that history always cycles around, and tomorrow the Muslims will have power over you. The time for introspection, the time for evaluation, the time for being just is when you are in power. That’s what a strong nation will be judged upon. It’s up to you what you want Israel to go down in history as: a nation that inflicted upon others what it was inflicted on by, or a nation that learned from the injustice upon itself to become just to other weaker nations. It’s UP TO YOU.

    Reply
27. 

    Nazihah

    March 5, 2008 at 9:29 PM

    Channel your emotions.

    International Fast for Gaza

    Monday March 10, 2008

    Reply
28. 

    Nazihah

    March 5, 2008 at 9:30 PM

    http://profile.ak.facebook.com/object2/434/104/n24332436752_3851.jpg

    Here’s a poster for the event.

    Reply
29. 

    emanuel appel

    March 5, 2008 at 9:48 PM

    To man of few words

    Many Moslems go into Jewish newsgroups and trash them. You don’t know the world.

    I’m not frustrated at all except with the fact that most Israelis try to be reasonable with you but you reply with violence and intransigence. My words are the words of reality.

    Accept us and our nation as we want it and you have a quiet Gaza and an Arab West Bank if you want it. Live in fantasy land and you get another 200 years of martyrs and garbage.

    Dear Amad,

    The history of Israel in Europe is a closed chapter. I’m not going to discuss it here becasue we’re talking about Gaza and it’s future.

    What I was referring to is the wilfull distortion of history for your political purposes. One of the other posters had the nerve to say words to the effect that Arabs have never attacked Israel.

    Let’s see, in 1948, in the period between 1948 and 1956, the first first fedayeen raids into Israel happened from Gaza between 48 and 56, then of course, Nasser’s brilliant Suez campaign was against Argentina, not Israel, the skyjackings, the human bombs, all thsoe things are NOT acts of agression, is that right?

    This type of ignorance is not a mystery. Is the wilful telling of a lie to “win” an argument except it doesn’t work with non Moslems. They know history, they read the account of events and just laugh at Arabs or Moslems when they tell blatant lies with a straight face.

    Again, if you want a happy Gaza, you will accept us and our nation. You will give up this idea that millions of descendants of 1948 Arabs will enter Israel. If not, bury your babies and stop crying.

    Reply
30. 

    Amira

    March 5, 2008 at 11:16 PM

    Brother Amad

    On Nazihah’s note, we should ask the question: What can we do? We have heard many different opinions about faults and feelings, but for those moved by the information above, what practical advices can be given?

    For those who do not reside in the area, what can we do to lessen the suffering of all those involved?

    By the way Emanuel, I like your phrase better without the ellipsis “you are pretty” Oh you. *blush*

    Reply
31. 

    Sequoia

    March 6, 2008 at 12:04 AM

    Amad (and any others with more knowledge), I second the request of Amira to find out more ways to help.

    Emanuel – Your disrespect to those on this blog is uncalled for. If you had done any basic reading of any archives of this site, you would come to realize just exactly how irrational your insults towards Muhamed and the Muslim faith are. I ahve been reading this site almost since the beginning. I have seen Amad, Musa, (the people you insulted), act with nothing but class when they have been on the recieving end of disrespect and bigotry. You are not the first person to insult Muhamed or muslims on this site. But I do wonder…does it really make you proud to make comments whose only purpose is to either hurt those you refer to? I am not a Muslim, but it does offend me that you would be so disrespectful as to insult people only to insult them. Your comments about Muhamed weren’t some good natured attempt at an honest discussion. It was designed to hurt. But notice that you weren’t threatened with beheading, nor was there any live-streaming of Isreal flag burning from Amad’s front porch. Heck you weren’t even banned. The stero-types of the angry, blood-thirsty Muslim might exist as truth in your mind, but know that this is a delusion and a fallacy. The rclassy and dignified response of the Muslims on this blog to your attempt at baiting with hateful rhetoric proves this.

    Reply
32. 

    darthvaider

    March 6, 2008 at 12:20 AM

    jazak Allah khayr brother Amad for bringing this up.
    It never ceases to amaze me how the media can continually overlook the plight of the Palestinian people and depict every Israeli attack as not only justified, but pinning the blame entirely on the Palestinians.
    May Allah help all of our brothers and sisters going through difficulties. Ameen.

    Reply
33. 

    Mass

    March 6, 2008 at 12:51 AM

    I dont think Amad, you do any right to our brothers and sisters writing sarcastically the way you did .I’m assuming that you havent seen what was going on, say on aljazeera. It is extremely painful what they are going through especially with the children.

    The ones killed are far more than you have mentioned by now, and the ones injured arent simply injured rather many of them with amputated limbs and maimed crushed bones.

    A lot of looting was reported too from these yahood. And often people lost several members of their family.

    A young girl was talking about how israeli soldiers shot her cousins and spat on them right in front of her, after saying that she kept crying “hasbiya Allah wa ne’ma al wakeel” several times before she collapsed on the floor…

    Reply
34. 

    DrM

    March 6, 2008 at 1:27 AM

    Jews will be Jews, the blight of nations whose time is running out.

    Dr. M, we have to be mindful of stereotyping. Just like we don’t like Islamophobes stereotyping Muslims, we should give other people the respect that we demand for ourselves. Instead of antisemitic comments, we should focus on this being an ISRAELI issue, not a JEWISH issue. The Israeli supporters want to frame anti-Israel sentiments as being antisemitic. We cannot allow this false premise to stick. Being against Israel, a state that is occupying and oppressing another nation, is not the same as being against Jews. In fact, many Jews are against Israeli policies, so are they antisemitic as well?? -MM

    Reply
35. 

    Abu Abdul

    March 6, 2008 at 4:45 AM

    “You should, however, worry about your relationship to God, who is the owner of all power and might. You should reflect on the meaning of life here on earth, and the fate that awaits you in the Hereafter. If you live estranged from God, then comfort and ease are actually a curse. Life is short, and the Hereafter is eternal. And Islam is the only path to success. That means believing in God as the only one worthy of worship, and accepting all of the Prophets, those sent the Children of Israel, such as Moses and Jesus, and the final Prophet, Muhammad, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. Why don’t you become Muslim so you can become part of the solution to all that ails humanity, according to the way that is pleasing to God?”

    Akhii Musa Maguire, Barkallaahu laka for this. This should be the ultimate aim of our discussions with people, muslims or non-muslims.

    Anyway, Amad & other bros/sis, lets not be unnecessarily distracted. At times, silence is the best answer.

    Reply
36. 

    theManOfFewWords

    March 6, 2008 at 10:26 AM

    emmanuel, I have a question.

    Would you agree to having a unified Palestine where Jews and Arabs would live together peacefully even though it would mean that Palestinians are given the right of return and full citizenship and rights with Israelis even if this means that Palestinians will outnumber jews and the PM of Israel could potentially be a Palestinian>

    Or is Israel to be Jewish only and maintain Jewish hegemony and domination over all other minorities regardless of the will of the majority?

    Im curious to hear the answer.

    Reply
37. 

    Amad

    March 6, 2008 at 11:04 AM

    Mass: I don’t think Amad, you do any right to our brothers and sisters writing sarcastically the way you did

    Mass, this style of writings is sometimes more effective to show how ridiculous the position of the wrong party is, in trying to justify their killing campaign. Trust me, this article got more under the skin of Israeli-friends than a plain old factual one.

    I am not being sarcastic about the situation, I am being sarcastic about the excuses and justifications that Israel and USA give for the state-terrorism being inflicted in Gaza.

    Reply
38. 

    Kashif

    March 6, 2008 at 11:12 AM

    Where is DrM when you want him?

    Reply
39. 

    me

    March 6, 2008 at 11:28 AM

    man wth do u keep deleting my comments?
    
    -If you make a comment on the topic without resorting to end-times predictions, which were never used by the Muslim scholars to “bring it on”, then we’ll leave your comments. What will happen in akhira will happen as Allah and His Rasul (S) predicted, but unlike the Zionists we don’t need to use those predictions to run away from discussions -MM

    Reply
40. 

    emanuel appel

    March 6, 2008 at 12:20 PM

    To Man of few words

    Two nations each with their own territory.

    Why not go to the Turks or the Iranians and make your proposals? They’d laugh in your face.

    If you come to me and tell me that I must move my family to live with yours in one big house, I’d consider you insane.

    I don’t know how many more examples I can give you. If that is unacceptable to you, then you’ll be miserable for the next 300 years. Fine if you like it.

    To those Moslems who say “God ” to me- Actions are more important than words.

    You who cut people’s heads off in front of a camera, you who commit suicide by blowing yourselves up among civilians, you who show no respect for funerals and blow yourselves up among the mourners,

    You who oppress women and non Moslems in Moslem countries,

    You dare to say “God” to me ? God in the mouths of hypocrites comes out “Dog.” Do not preach to me.

    Reply
41. 

    Amad

    March 6, 2008 at 12:48 PM

    Thank you Sequoia as usual, for your comments. It is nice to hear from a third-party perspective (religion-wise).

    But obviously Emanuel is too wrapped up in his Islamophobia to appreciate your thoughts. Bringing up examples of what radicals and terrrorists have done and then stereotyping in others, just shows that his mind is set. He forgets that blowing up oneself in civilians is not much different from using a F-16 or a hellfire missile to kill. The end-result is the same; in fact the results of the latter are far worse.

    Let’s just ignore Emanuel. Its pointless arguing with him.

    Reply
42. 

    emanuel appel

    March 6, 2008 at 1:15 PM

    To amad and his followers

    Yes, ignore me.

    However, the Chinese have a wise

    saying

    “It’s better to light one little candle than

    to curse the darkness”

    Stay inside your comfortable Moslem

    bubble and mourn. You like it.

    Reply
43. 

    Asim

    March 6, 2008 at 2:51 PM

    “The history of Israel in Europe is a closed chapter.”

    LOL. Thats the whole issue…it isnt.

    Reply
44. 

    DrM

    March 6, 2008 at 5:22 PM

    Asalam Aliakum,
    I understand where you are coming from MM. however I think Muslims should cease political correctness concerning Jews. Nor should we be scared of being called “anti-semitic” by counterfeit “jews” out of Khazaria. I think its high time the Arabs reclaim semitism from these murderous charlatans.
    Jews have not done enough enough to divorce themselves from zionism, in fact they conglomerate around it. I see no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt any longer. I recognize that there are anti-zionist Jews, but unfortunately these are a tiny and powerless minority. I support the Palestinians 100% against jewish terrorism by any means necessary, and no amount of lies, and slander from the like of “emmanuel” and other zionist gutter snipes will change that.
    
    Comment Edited. Please be mindful of name-calling and insults. -MM

    Reply
45. 

    HaSim

    March 7, 2008 at 6:24 AM

    036.010
    ‘The same is to them whether thou admonish them or thou do not admonish them: they will not believe.’

    035.008
    ‘..Allah leaves stray whom He wills, and guides whom He will. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do!’

    008.030
    ‘..They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah’.

    049.013
    ‘O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).’

    002.062
    ‘Those who belive (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,-any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have thier reward with thier Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.’

    036.083
    ‘Glory to Him in Whose hands is the dominion of all things: and to Him will ye be all brought back.’

    Reply
46. 

    eli

    March 8, 2008 at 11:17 AM

    Muslim logic 101
    1. When facts don’t favor you; ignore the facts.

    2. If this persists…lie

    3.Next attack the messenger and repeat number 1

    Free your minds… if you dare, ‘brave’ warriors

    Reply
47. 

    Wigon

    March 8, 2008 at 6:00 PM

    Eli, is that how you see all Muslim thinking. I’ve had very good conversations with Palestinians about the issue but if your mind is clouded by hatred, then you will do as you are doing (and others are doing towards you) and demonize them with simplistic characterizations rather then recognizing the complexity of the issues and looking at the tough decisions and honorable leadership that will be required to convince those deep in hatred that there is a way to peace and reconciliation.

    Also what you may call historical “facts” are not facts but rather simply one side’s historical perspective. Any student of history knows that there are always minority histories that show an entirely differently reality from their perspectives. To ignore that is to ignore the truth of what happened in the past that is usually somewhere in the middle of all the various perspectives.

    Emanuel: As for Muslims being all those horrible people you describe, its funny cuz here in America I don’t see Muslims (aside from the rare lunatic) doing those evil things. Do Muslims willing to slay innocent civilians against the rules of Jihad exist? Absolutely. You make alot of assumptions without trying to understand specifically why some Muslims will do extremely horrific acts of violence. From my own research as an anthropologist I can tell you that they have a vast range of reasons and it is not as simple as saying, “Because they are Muslims.” Suicide bombing is not an Islamic concept and is not new. If you understand an Islamic extremist as a human being (rather the condemning them as pure animals who can not be understood) you will never learn and continue to generalize and hate Muslims until your dying day.
    However if you treat them as human beings and with respect (which is what most desire), you will find that most are willing to have dialogue in which you can develop a mutual understanding of each other’s world views if you have the patience and true love for a fellow human being despite what you believe.

    It is not easy to do that. But personally I’ve had very good success in dialogue with extremists and in getting them to look at alternative traditional interpretations of the Qu’ran and Sunna and in the historical context in which past interpretations were made within the various madhhabs. Much of it is simple respect, patience, and showing true love towards them. Call me a hippy, but it works and it does not mean supporting atrocities. It means giving them positive reasons not to do them. Any undergrad psychology student knows that negative reinforcement does not work well aside from temporarily modifying the behavior which they wish to change. However they also know that positive reinforcement tends to have much longer lasting (and often permanent) behavioral changes in a human being. This has been proven repeatedly in well controlled behavioral experiments and although I am not a Christian, is actually the basis of the Book of Matthew in the New Testament (The Sermon on the Mount).

    The same holds true for Muslims if they wish to change the views of Israelis and the Western non-Muslim world. Honorable action, noble intent (for the sake of Allah), personal piety, and virtue are the keys to leading by example and showing kafr the most beautiful aspects of Islam. I’ve met some tremendously wonderful Muslims who
    I’ve been privilege to live amongst who really walk the walk and don’t just talk the talk. These are people of incredible piety, faith, humility, generosity, and who act to serve Allah by serving those who need help the most in their community’s despite the religion of those who need help. If you were to spend any time amongst them you would have a very different understanding of the potential of Islam and traditional Islamic values and practices can be applied successfully in a modern world and even in a non-Muslim nation. What is even more fascinating is that these Muslims come from all walks of life, madhhabs, and ethnic backgrounds. They include Sufis, Salafis, Shi’a, etc…

    Seek goodness in people and you will find it. Seek the evil in people and you also will find it.
    You do not have to ignore the evil. Always it must be recognized not only in others, but within your own heart.
    However, in others which do you seek to nurture? The good or evil?
    If the evil then you do nothing but fuel it by attacking those who have nothing to do with the evil (either verbally or physically) and thus create enemies where you had none before. This creates self-fulfilling prophecy.
    In large numbers such negative self-fulfilling prophecy leads to great violence which then legitimizes self-defense which if done incorrectly leads to retaliation by the original attacker until you get a circle of violence that is difficult to break.

    The prophet Mohammad (Peace be Upon Him) should be noted in that he stopped much of such violence amongst the Arab tribes by intervening. He and the first rightly guided Caliphates also made peace treaties as well, some of which hold to this day. Mount Sinai and Saint Catherine’s church there in Egypt is an example of such a treaty that holds to this day. It is an area held to be under the protection of Muslims and is in fact one of the great storehouses of Christian knowledge and learning outside of the Vatican. Remains of this treaty still survive today if you wish to go google it and find out more.

    At any rate, as my Muslim friends say, “Allah knows best!”

    (For those who don’t know me I am a theist meaning I believe in One God but not in organized religion although I respect them. However I also study Islamic theology as a cultural anthropologist although I am not a scholar by any means and still have much to learn).

    Reply
48. 

    Amad

    March 8, 2008 at 9:46 PM

    Wigon, I enjoyed reading all your responses. You bring interesting perspectives on a very respectful and pleasant note. You remind me of Sequoia, our other eloquent blog friend.

    Did you hear about the permanent Christian-Muslim dialog set up recently? Any opinions on that?

    Look forward to hearing from you more often.

    P.S. Eli has been put into permanent moderation unfortunately. His last comments (all deleted) were all hateful cut and paste jobs. He did not find it necessary to respond to your points or points raised by others. Sometimes I think people don’t want to hear reason, because that may lead to a chance of stance and we know people don’t like changes. His initial semblance of reasonableness turned trollish… yet another one bites the dust!

    Reply
49. 

    Robbo

    March 27, 2008 at 4:58 PM

    It’s interesting to see Emanuel Appel loud mouthing and insulting people on this website.
    He was thrown off two Timesonline blogs (Davis Aaronovitch and Gerard Baker) for the same thing and was described beautifully by another poster as “A Zionist Nazi”, and by yet another poster as “a drunken lout in the High Street on a Saturday night with a can of beer in his hand”.

    Reply
50. 

    theManOfFewWords

    March 28, 2008 at 10:49 AM

    Busted!

    Reply
51. 

    Messenger

    January 8, 2009 at 9:55 AM

    Hamas:
    Rocket Attack at Israeli Kindergarten Kills Boy and Man (The New York Times, June 29, 2004)
    Gaza rocket strike hurts children (BBC, July 25, 2004)
    6 kids wounded in Gaza rocket attack (The Jerusalem Post, July 26, 2004)
    Rocket kills two Israeli children (BBC, September 29, 2004)
    Gaza Strip Mortar Attack Injures 11 Israeli Soldiers (Bloomberg, December 17, 2004)
    Rocket Attack Kills An Israeli Woman (The Washington Times, July 15, 2005)
    Palestinians fire rocket at Israel from Gaza, wounding Thai worker (The Jerusalem Post, July 26, 2006)
    Rocket from Gaza injures Israeli children on playground (CBC News, July 28, 2006)
    Man injured by Gaza rocket fire (BBC, August 2, 2006)
    Palestinians in Gaza resume rocket attacks on Israel (International Herald Tribune, September 1, 2006)
    Rocket Fired From Gaza Kills Israeli Woman (The New York Times, November 15, 2006)
    Israeli man dies after struck by Gaza rocket (Reuters, November 21, 2006)
    Palestinian Rocket Lands in Israeli Day Care Center (Reuters, December 3, 2006)
    Gaza rocket injures first Israelis since truce (Reuters, December 26, 2006)
    Palestinian rocket hits house next to Israeli kindergarten (International Herald Tribune, May 7, 2007)
    Gaza rocket lands on house in Israel, two injured (Reuters, May 15, 2007)
    Gaza Rocket Attack Kills an Israeli Woman (The Washington Post, May 22, 2007)
    Hamas Rocket Kills Israeli Father (News Blaze, May 27, 2007)
    Palestinian rocket kills 2 Gaza children (Reuters, August 7, 2007)
    Rocket from Gaza lands in Sderot; one Israeli injured (International Herald Tribune, August 28, 2007)
    Rocket fired from Gaza hits Israeli border town (International Herald Tribune, September 3, 2007)
    Palestinian Rocket Lands in Israeli Day Care Center (FOX News, September 3, 2007)
    Palestinian rocket hits Israeli Army base, wounding dozens (International Herald Tribune, September 11, 2007)
    Rocket from Gaza wounds 40 Israeli soldiers (International Herald Tribune, December 11, 2007)
    Israeli woman seriously wounded in Palestinian rocket attack (International Herald Tribune, December 13, 2007)
    Rocket fired from Gaza wounds Israeli child (International Herald Tribune, December 16, 2007)
    Gaza Rocket Wounds 2 Israeli Girls (ABC News, February 7, 2008)
    Israeli boy and older brother seriously injured in rocket attack from Gaza (International Herald Tribune, February 9, 2008)
    Israeli Killed by Palestinian Rocket (FOX News, February 27, 2008)
    New rocket attack aimed at Israeli city (International Herald Tribune, March 11, 2008)
    Gaza rocket squads launch barrage against Israel (International Herald Tribune, March 13, 2008)
    Hamas rocket attack kills one Israeli, wounds three others (Al Bawaba, May 6, 2008)
    Rocket Fired From Gaza Kills Woman in Southern Israel (The New York Times, May 13, 2008)
    Gaza rocket hits Israeli mall, hurts 14 (USA Today, May 14, 2008)
    Rocket hits as Bush begins Israel visit (International Herald Tribune, March 15, 2008)
    Poll shows Palestinians support rocket attacks and want peace talks to end (International Herald Tribune, March 18, 2008)
    Gaza rocket fire damages Israeli nursery (UPI, March 28, 2008)
    Gaza missile kills one at kibbutz (BBC, June 5, 2008)
    Rockets hit Israel, breaking Hamas truce (International Herald Tribune, June 25, 2008)
    Gaza rocket lands in southern Israel (Reuters, July 12, 2008)
    Gaza rocket firings break cease-fire (UPI, August 9, 2008)
    Rocket from Gaza lands in Israel (International Herald Tribune, August 20, 2008)
    Rocket from Gaza hits Israeli town (International Herald Tribune, September 14, 2008)
    Rocket fired from Gaza Violating Cease-fire (International Herald Tribune, October 21, 2008)
    Gaza rocket strikes Israel (International Herald Tribune, October 30, 2008)
    Hamas fires long-range rockets at Israel (International Herald Tribune, November 14, 2008)
    Gaza mortars wound 6 Israelis (International Herald Tribune, November 28, 2008)
    Rocket fire from Gaza wounds two Israelis (Reuters, December 17, 2008)
    Palestinian militants fire rockets from Gaza (International Herald Tribune, December 18, 2008)
    Gaza militants hit Israeli house with rocket (International Herald Tribune, December 21, 2008)
    Israel Hit by Biggest Gaza Rocket Barrage Since Cease-Fire (Bloomberg, December 24, 2008)
    Palestinian rocket kills 2 Gaza girls (Reuters, December 26, 2008)
    Israeli killed by Gaza rocket (AFP, December 27, 2008)
    Rocket fired by Gaza militants kills Israeli woman (Reuters, December 29, 2008)
    Hamas hits Israel with dozens of rockets (International Herald Tribune, December 29, 2008)
    Three killed by Hamas rocket fire in the South (The Jerusalem Post, December 29, 2008)

    Hezbollah:
    Two Israelis killed, 35 wounded in Hezbollah rocket attacks (Forbes, July 13, 2006)
    Hezbollah Rockets Kill 15 in Deadly Blow to Israel (The New York Times, August 6, 2006)

    Reply