What if it was Mexicans in Tijuana lobbing rockets into San Diego? This is a must read op-ed from the Washington Times.
By Randall Kuhn
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January 14, 2009
“Think about what would happen if for seven years rockets had been fired at San Diego, California from Tijuana, Mexico.” Within hours scores of American pundits and politicians had mimicked Barak’s comparisons almost verbatim. In fact, in this very paper on January 9 House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer and House Minority Whip Eric Cantor ended an opinion piece by saying “America would never sit still if terrorists were lobbing missiles across our border into Texas or Montana.” But let’s see if our political and pundit class can parrot this analogy.
Think about what would happen if San Diego expelled most of its Hispanic, African American, Asian American, and Native American population, about 48 percent of the total, and forcibly relocated them to Tijuana? Not just immigrants, but even those who have lived in this country for many generations. Not just the unemployed or the criminals or the America haters, but the school teachers, the small business owners, the soldiers, even the baseball players.
What if we established government and faith-based agencies to help move white people into their former homes? And what if we razed hundreds of their homes in rural areas and, with the aid of charitable donations from people in the United States and abroad, planted forests on their former towns, creating nature preserves for whites to enjoy? Sounds pretty awful, huh? I may be called anti-Semitic for speaking this truth. Well, I’m Jewish and the scenario above is what many prominent Israeli scholars say happened when Israel expelled Palestinians from southern Israel and forced them into Gaza. But this analogy is just getting started.
What if the United Nations kept San Diego’s discarded minorities in crowded, festering camps in Tijuana for 19 years? Then, the United States invaded Mexico, occupied Tijuana and began to build large housing developments in Tijuana where only whites could live. And what if the United States built a network of highways connecting American citizens of Tijuana to the United States? And checkpoints, not just between Mexico and the United States but also around every neighborhood of Tijuana? What if we required every Tijuana resident, refugee or native, to show an ID card to the U.S. military on demand? What if thousands of Tijuana residents lost their homes, their jobs, their businesses, their children, their sense of self worth to this occupation? Would you be surprised to hear of a protest movement in Tijuana that sometimes became violent and hateful? Okay, now for the unbelievable part.
Think about what would happen if, after expelling all of the minorities from San Diego to Tijuana and subjecting them to 40 years of brutal military occupation, we just left Tijuana, removing all the white settlers and the soldiers? Only instead of giving them their freedom, we built a 20-foot tall electrified wall around Tijuana? Not just on the sides bordering San Diego, but on all the Mexico crossings as well. What if we set up 50-foot high watchtowers with machine gun batteries, and told them that if they stood within 100 yards of this wall we would shoot them dead on sight? And four out of every five days we kept every single one of those border crossings closed, not even allowing food, clothing, or medicine to arrive. And we patrolled their air space with our state-of-the-art fighter jets but didn’t allow them so much as a crop duster. And we patrolled their waters with destroyers and submarines, but didn’t even allow them to fish.
Would you be at all surprised to hear that these resistance groups in Tijuana, even after having been “freed” from their occupation but starved half to death, kept on firing rockets at the United States? Probably not. But you may be surprised to learn that the majority of people in Tijuana never picked up a rocket, or a gun, or a weapon of any kind. The majority, instead, supported against all hope negotiations toward a peaceful solution that would provide security, freedom and equal rights to both people in two independent states living side by side as neighbors. This is the sound analogy to Israel’s military onslaught in Gaza today. Maybe some day soon, common sense will prevail and no corpus of misleading analogies abut Tijuana or the crazy guy across the hall who wants to murder your daughter will be able to obscure the truth. And at that moment, in a country whose people shouted We Shall Overcome, Ich bin ein Berliner, End Apartheid, Free Tibet and Save Darfur, we will all join together and shout “Free Gaza. Free Palestine.” And because we are Americans, the world will take notice and they will be free, and perhaps peace will prevail for all the residents of the Holy Land.
Randall Kuhn is an assistant professor and Director of the Global Health Affairs Program at the University of Denver Josef Korbel School of International Studies. He just returned from a trip to Israel and the West Bank.
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#Islam2 weeks ago
SH
January 21, 2009 at 1:51 PM
Jazakallahu khayir for this. People should think twice before making analgoies that don’t even apply to the situation. Thank you for this anlaysis.
Yasir Qadhi
January 21, 2009 at 1:59 PM
The Washington Times is one of the better newspapers in America (although still far behind from other European news sources).
Excellent analogy, great story.
mofw
January 21, 2009 at 2:39 PM
Mashallah, Obama is already parroting sound bytes straight from desks Israeli pr spokesmen.
AnonyMouse
January 21, 2009 at 2:39 PM
The article reminded me of Amad’s Farmocracy Experiment posts… both this article and the Farmocracy posts have caused me to wonder why it is that the truth is more obvious (or acceptable) when it’s disguised, and the reality itself is disregarded. Allahu musta’an!
Tarif
January 21, 2009 at 2:46 PM
This was a great analogy, and I bet if more people saw this article, the crisis in Gaza would make a lot more sense to Americans.
Miako
January 21, 2009 at 3:34 PM
The washington times is run by the Moonies, an organization devoted to destroying America. Seriously, those people are on crack.
Still a good article though…
eliza
January 21, 2009 at 3:45 PM
What if the Mexicans stated that their mission was to destroy the US? What if several other countries joined them in this statement? What if several wars with the object of destroying the US had already been fought?
abu abdAllah, the Houstonian
January 21, 2009 at 4:02 PM
innalhamdolillah. bismillah. the editorial is a well-articulated response to the soundbites with which Israeli zionists justify themselves. just look at Eliza’s comment.
Eliza, you may parrot any lines you wish. for you, the rain in spain falls mainly on the plain. but know that blame falls mainly on Israeli zionists. that may not rhyme, but justice will come in time.
Amad
January 21, 2009 at 5:30 PM
Sh. Yasir, I am not sure what you mean by Washington Times being one of the better newspapers in America… rather it is one of the worst in terms of neocon and hard right-wing influence, and they have printed several articles against Muslims and Islamic organizations. So, this comes as a surprise… maybe they felt it necessary to show that they have a speck of balance left in them.
Eliza:
What if America had forcibly stolen most of Mexico and turned it into little fragments, and then kept installing American settlers within these incongruous little Mexican fragments? Would you blame Mexico to at least saber-rattle, even if they only possessed a few toy-rockets vs. the entire nucleur slate that America possessed? Is this saber-rattling even significant or meaningful considering that these Mexican occupied territories didn’t posses the means or ways to actualize these empty threats? Past wars would be also be meaningless in this context, because there was some semblance of equity between the 2 armed forces, which no longer existed.
Also, while SOME Mexicans stated that they wanted US destroyed, what if the Republican party (aka Likud in Israel) had almost a mirror charter to the Mexican charter that expressly forbade America from ever allowing Mexico to have their own state, side by side? And considering US to be the Goliath in this case, and Republicans to be a formidable party, wouldn’t this threat be more significant than the threats of the weaker Mexicans?
So, Eliza, I know these points will go through one ear, and come out the other without ringing any bells of common-sense, but I sure hope that you will see that your arguments are as hollow as the entire Zionist agenda.
gohar
January 21, 2009 at 6:50 PM
FInklestein points out (paraphrased):
Hamas has shown repeated willingness to accept the 1967 borders (it says that it will not stand in the way of any deal the Palestinian people make with Israel, even if they themselves don’t agree with it), whereas Isreal has never once accepted the right of a Palestinian state within thie 1967 borders which is the stance of the entire international community (except Isrel, USA, and some unheard of Pacific Islands) as well as of the International court of Justice. And since 1997 when they have talked about a Palestinian state, they never do so in the context of the 1967 borders.
And that’s just theory. In reality, their record is even worse because they are continuing to take every possible practicle step they can to prevent such an agreement from ever occurring by continuingly to centrally fund further annexing of the West Bank.
So who is really the obstacle to peace, Hamas or Israel?
gohar
January 21, 2009 at 6:59 PM
gohar
January 21, 2009 at 7:05 PM
Yasir Qadhi
January 21, 2009 at 8:49 PM
Amad:
My bad, I slipped up. I was thinking of The Washington Post and when I read the article I ‘read in’ the wrong paper :)
eliza
January 21, 2009 at 9:03 PM
This is from the AP
updated 10:25 p.m. ET Sept. 13, 2005
NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza Strip – Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.
American Jewish donors had bought more than 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for $14 million last month and transferred them to the Palestinian Authority. Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn, who brokered the deal, put up $500,000 of his own cash.
Palestinian police stood by helplessly Tuesday as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the prized assets. In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.
So now they’re starving to death.
Faisal
January 21, 2009 at 9:20 PM
Eliza,
You do realize that you just plucked out an article from 2005?
eliza
January 21, 2009 at 9:31 PM
Yes, Faisal, it’s years of stories like this that have eroded the support that people might otherwise have for the Pals. Do they never put their children and prosperity first?
gohar
January 21, 2009 at 9:54 PM
Eliza, you clearly have no shame. Your atitude (not your ethnic background), as is so clearly demonstarted in this one statement, is why people liken you to Nazis. And you can surely see it, but you don’t care. Just like they didn’t.
gohar
January 21, 2009 at 10:28 PM
Listen to Eliza herself here at 56 seconds.
Watch Eliza’s fellow nazis dancing at the deaths of gazans here
FS
January 21, 2009 at 11:05 PM
Elisa, I love you, will you marry me :)
I am very handsome American doctor, its golden opportunity to become the true follower of all the Prophets (PBUTA) ;)
Raniah
January 21, 2009 at 11:47 PM
This was a great article. I loved the analogies.
It’s too bad that there aren’t hundreds more in the american media like this.
syed kaschif ahmed
January 22, 2009 at 12:38 AM
salaam…
IF we want to make a comparision between something close to home..
then I would suggest readers skim through the westward expansion of America through Native American territory…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States
Here are the concen. camps, atleast they were , now reservations….
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Americanindiansmapcensusbureau.gif
Israel and the Palestinian Authorities have a similar history.. only it starts in 1948… while America’s 1848..ish..
Manifest Destiny to conquer the lands… Israel right to exist…
Israel is just 100 yrs too late for people of the world to accept this colonialization and built of concentration camps..
people should read about this Manifest Destiny aka Indian Removal…
btw.. do us American Muslims… are we held accountable or will we be for living in such a land that did this?… All of this land is basically stolen… and these people (native americans).. many still hold claim to this land?
JazakumAllah Khayr
As-salaamu alaykum
Azam
January 22, 2009 at 3:17 AM
ma sha Allah, this is a very good Op-Ed, one of the best I have read on the situation in Gaza.
nausheenk
January 22, 2009 at 4:59 AM
I think a better analogy would have been to say what if the immigrant populations in some states forcibly removed white Americans from their homes and replaced them with more immigrants and then declared it their own sovereign nation.
I don’t think it’s the Palestinians who should be likened to immigrant populations, when it has been the Israeli’s who have had Jews from the world over immigrating to live on stolen Palestinian land, whilst continuously oppressing and persecuting the displaced Palestinians.
Dutch
January 22, 2009 at 6:50 AM
Thank you for this article. This is defiantly not in European newspapers.
Let’s hope the world will one day wake up and work together towards a home for the Palestinian people, in peace with the Jewish people.
Raniah
January 22, 2009 at 9:00 AM
Great analogies!! I’m glad that someone had the guts to write this and may many more follow his lead!
eliza
January 22, 2009 at 11:18 AM
Actually, I have seen articles lately that compare the muslims to nazis. Nazis are the favorite of the moment. In any news story about muslims, substitute “Mexicans” or “Swedes” and you will see how grotesque you look.
The Pals have a responsibility to their children, their people, what remains of their land. They prefer to live on the handouts of the international community.
When I read the words of one of their leaders, that they would live on “olives and thyme” or whatever it was, before they would give up the urge to destroy Israel, I was disgusted. What a bunch of death loving goons. Their dead children were too good for them.
Miako
January 22, 2009 at 2:25 PM
I agree with Dutch.
I devoutly wish for there to be peace between Israel and Palestine.
Israel’s refusal to return to 1967 boundaries is a bit of a red herring. I believe that most of the kvetching is about Jerusalem, which in that case would be divided. Do we really want another Berlin? I think if there is some recognition that the Israeli and Palestinian police must work together, then there might not be so much of an obstacle. Yerushalayem is such a beautiful, holy city of gold, I wish it the best.
eliza,
If you would stand against the KKK burning black people’s homes, then you must stand against the settlements, where Jewish settlers illegally take over Palestinian lands, many times destroying villages to do it. If you won’t stand against either of these, I brand you immoral. Yes, I am a Jew, and as a Jew I take responsibility for what all Jews do. Right now, I am very upset at the Israeli government, because it will be on my head, just as much as on theirs, for what they have done. On Yom Kippur, when my name, god willing, is inscribed in the Book of Life, it will be because I have honestly and sincerely atoned for the strife in the Middle East.
Themuslimkid
January 22, 2009 at 3:28 PM
Very nice article.
Abd- Allah
January 22, 2009 at 3:50 PM
Dear brothers and sisters, please ignore ‘elisa’ because she is not even worth your time. Irrational people like her can never be convinced rationally.
Abd- Allah
January 22, 2009 at 4:26 PM
Brother Miako, have you ever considered accepting Islam and becoming muslim? You seem to me to be a sincere person who doesn’t have a problem with accepting the truth when he sees it..
Organica
January 22, 2009 at 7:43 PM
Excellent. Let’s Digg it!
Organica
January 22, 2009 at 7:58 PM
Won’t let me digg.
“This URL has been reported by users to be in violation of Digg’s Terms of Use and cannot be submitted at this time. Please refer to our Terms of Use (digg.com/tou) for more information.”
Amad
January 22, 2009 at 8:38 PM
I guess IDF’s online mercenaries have struck by making false accusations against us… we are working to resolve this… It is unfortunate that DIGG doesn’t even have the courtesy to contact us first if they have any issue with something.
eliza
January 22, 2009 at 8:47 PM
I do not pretend to know all that’s going on in that area. What’s bothering me is the Pal focus on destroying Israel instead of building themselves. Am also under the impression that to the Pals, a dead child may be worth more than a live one. A photo of the one is a valuable solicitation for pity. The other is just another mouth to feed, how tiresome.
Reading Muslim opinion also leads me to think that were these dead children Jews or other kuffar they wouldn’t give a hoot.
Amad
January 22, 2009 at 9:05 PM
I would really like to ignore you as another troll due to your arrogant attitude and careless stereotyping. First of all, its Palestinians… if your ilk cannot give these people a chance for life and livelihood, at least spare them the courtesy to call them with their names.
Secondly, go read the Mumbai terrorism post we have here, and that will take care of your last line.
Thirdly, I am sure, like any other human beings, the Palestinians want to build their lives and livelihood. But try doing that in a cage, cut off from basic life supplies.
But you probably know all that. However, as a troll, you don’t care to know the truth. Your only goal is to act dumb and outrageous. So, if you continue down this road, we’ll have to just put you back in our MM cage… so you can know how it feels to be irrelevant and powerless to contribute or be part of world society.
debbie
January 23, 2009 at 1:15 AM
what if the minorities were sending rockets to their neighbors all day long? Would the United States let it happen for eight years before really doing anything about it. Be real here. Palestinians are lousy neighbors. They teach hate to small children and send rockets from schools and then grab the opportunity to say how Israel is hurting kids. Don’t put your kids in harms way. These neighbors teach hate. It’s child abuse. They kill, blow themselves up and take innocent people with them. Where is the media on that, by the way? They tear down and build nothing, contribute nothing, do nothing but kill, fight and prepare their children to fight for them. Cowards.
manish
January 23, 2009 at 1:38 AM
Nobody has the right to wish others dead. Minorities in the United States killing others would be gotten rid of immediately. Don’t think we would sit there while they plan our demise and do nothing.
Next time, you (Manish/Debbie) don’t have to use socket-puppets to make the same troll point. The IP address makes it quite obvious. -Editor
Miako
January 23, 2009 at 10:00 AM
Abd- Allah,
you are too kind! And I am too much of a stubborn Jew — elsewise why would I be here disagreeing when there are mistruths? I firmly believe in my way of worshiping Allah, Adonai, however we wish to term G-d. Praise all that worship him, in all of our myriad ways. And may G-d find joy through the truths we find together with him, and may that joy ward off His anger, for the untruths we find and ascribe falsely to him.
eliza
January 23, 2009 at 11:26 AM
I write because I am furious at the loss of young lives and the stupid belligerence of their elders. The Pals? They deserve worse names.
I write with the anger and sorrow of a mother.
(Edited: comments degrading our Prophet(saw) will not be tolerated under ANY circumstances).
Miako
January 23, 2009 at 12:53 PM
Eliza,
On Israeli TV and Radio, you can hear the wailing and ullulation of a doctor whose daughters are dead — killed by the IDF during the broadcast. He is no murderer!
He is a friend of one of my very close friends, he has Jewish friends! Yes, he lives in Gaza, but for that, both of his daughters are dead!
What the Israeli government has done here, in this one instance, is monstrous.
Do not let your vengeance blind you. An eye for an eye? That was limited justice, under the Hammurabi code — elsewise, people would do as Israel does, killing many for the crimes of a few (curse those who commit crimes, on both sides)
In the Talmud, in the Midrash, it says that to kill a person is the equivalent of killing a world, for each person is capable of siring a world, as Abraham has done. How evil is it to kill the daughters of someone who works for peace?
Ranting aside, I might venture to say that many here might be more accepting of LIMITED civilian casualties, if they actually felt that this might lead to peace.
eliza
January 23, 2009 at 1:51 PM
-Edited
Eliza, we are officially moving you to the spam cage. It is a nice territory and you are free to do whatever you want in it… you can type up tons of messages, you can utter abuses and insults, you can do whatever you want. I think it will be a good experience for you to feel irrelevant and cut off from making any useful contribution on MM’s world. Its kind of similar to what Israel does to Palestinians… the only difference being that you deserve it.
Since you admitted that you don’t know much about that region, take the time to educate yourself while you live in the spam cage… you may actually learn a thing or two. -amad
Atif
January 23, 2009 at 5:44 PM
Digg it here: http://digg.com/world_news/What_if_it_was_San_Diego_and_Tijuana_instead_of_Gaza
AsimG
January 23, 2009 at 7:39 PM
Shaykh Yasir,
Washington Times is probably one of the worst sources of anti-islamophobic “media” out there. I cringed when I read the article was from washington times.
Washington Post is ok, but it’s not much better either.
Sadly, The Economist and the Financial Times have a better understanding of what’s happening in the US than the US newspapers.
US newspapers are only good at “breaking stories”
Horace
January 23, 2009 at 8:12 PM
The Palestinians over whelmingly elected Hamas to represent them. So it is only affair they would be attacked after their government attacked another country. Also it is hypocritical for the Palestinians to cry about civilian casualties when they also target civilians. Don’t use the Israel has a compulsory military standard either. The Palestinians also use female and children bombers, so that excuse is rubbish.
AsimG
January 23, 2009 at 8:37 PM
Israel was displacing Palestinians, killing them and taking over their land WELL BEFORE Hamas existed or even the concept of “suicide bombing” entered the minds of DESPERATE palestinians.
Israel has always been the aggressor and the case plays true even today. On November 4th, Israel entered Gaza and KILLED “palestinian militants”.
Israel broke the ceasefire.
Israel never abided by the ceasefire guidelines. It DID NOT open the borders and humantarian crisis was building without any concern by Israel or the west.
But a few rockets are fired as a counter-reaction and Israel is trying to play the defensive guard?
You bomb hospitals, universities, mosques AND UN BUILDINGS and try to claim Hamas is the evil one?
We don’t take such garbage, try CNN.
Thanks.
Horace
January 23, 2009 at 9:00 PM
Asim I don’t use words like evil and good when I’m looking at situations like what is going on in Israel and Palestine. Fact is the Palestinians have a history of targeting CIVILIANS. It didn’t start when Hamas became the ruling party, they have been committing acts of terrorism in Israel and abroad since the 60’s atleast. So that means the Palestinians have no ground to cry in the media about killing unarmed people and bombing schools, hospitals, etc. When they do the EXACT same thing. You’re not going to be able to understand this if you keep getting your news from BIASED sources like Al Jazeera and other Arab/Muslims news sources.
Abd- Allah
January 23, 2009 at 10:23 PM
I think that the point Horace and the other Zionists are trying to make here which many of us can’t seem to understand is that if in the past (and I am talking way back) the ancestors of these Israelis have killed the Prophets, then why are we shocked when their descendants, the Israelis, kill and persecute the Palastinians?! They are just doing what is expected of them, and this is, in a sense, their ‘job’, and although this ‘worker’ was never even hired by anyone, but he just showed up at the ‘office’ one day and started ‘working’ and tried to blend in with the rest of the employees as ‘just another worker’ trying to go about his ‘own business’, and even ‘permanently borrowed’ (by force) one of his ‘co-worker’s office’, and when that (unsuspecting) ‘co-worker’ tried to go into his own ‘office’ to get his own ‘stapler’, he got beaten down as an act of ‘self defense’ because he was obviously trying to get hold of that ‘stapler’ to use it as a ‘weapon of mass stapling’ and so the ‘boss’ fired him while giving the other ‘worker’ a ‘promotion’ for being ‘brave’ and ‘defending’ himself and others from this ‘terrorist’…
This story is actually an old one and has been recurring since for ever… and I think the point Horace and his zionist friends are trying to tell us is that if a donkey kicks you, don’t complain, because what do you expect from a donkey?! a donkey will always be a donkey, and don’t count on evolution to change that donkey into an actual human being with a conscience and moral values… and I agree… a donkey will always be a donkey, so we shouldn’t expect anything else from a donkey..
Horace
January 24, 2009 at 2:12 AM
Abd- Allah said:
I think that the point Horace and the other Zionists are trying to make here which many of us can’t seem to understand is that if in the past (and I am talking way back) the ancestors of these Israelis have killed the Prophets, then why are we shocked when their descendants, the Israelis, kill and persecute the Palastinians?! They are just doing what is expected of them, and this is, in a sense, their ‘job’, and although this ‘worker’ was never even hired by anyone, but he just showed up at the ‘office’ one day and started ‘working’ and tried to blend in with the rest of the employees as ‘just another worker’ trying to go about his ‘own business’, and even ‘permanently borrowed’ (by force) one of his ‘co-worker’s office’, and when that (unsuspecting) ‘co-worker’ tried to go into his own ‘office’ to get his own ’stapler’, he got beaten down as an act of ’self defense’ because he was obviously trying to get hold of that ’stapler’ to use it as a ‘weapon of mass stapling’ and so the ‘boss’ fired him while giving the other ‘worker’ a ‘promotion’ for being ‘brave’ and ‘defending’ himself and others from this ‘terrorist’…
This story is actually an old one and has been recurring since for ever… and I think the point Horace and his zionist friends are trying to tell us is that if a donkey kicks you, don’t complain, because what do you expect from a donkey?! a donkey will always be a donkey, and don’t count on evolution to change that donkey into an actual human being with a conscience and moral values… and I agree… a donkey will always be a donkey, so we shouldn’t expect anything else from a donkey..
I am not a Zionist or a Jew, I don’t believe in prophets or your god either. Please don’t put words in my mouth. The Palestinians have targeted and killed civilians for many years. That means they are in no position to claim the moral high bround, because they do exactly what Israel does. The Jews just have a larger capacity to kill. The problem with you is you’re biased, no matter what I or anyone else says, you’re gonna believe in the propaganda you’ve been fed for an extended period of time.
AsimG
January 24, 2009 at 2:38 AM
The moral highground is clear.
Over 1000 Palestinians are dead and almost 5000 severely injured.
The Washington Post shows an Israeli and a Palestinian crying.
The Palestinian woman’s 5 children were just killed.
The Israeli is “in shock” and not injured at all.
And you are telling us that we are biased?
Hamas and suicide bombing are all new concepts and even THEN suicide bombing has stopped according to the ceasefire that Hamas abided by and Israel did not.
The problem is you don’t recognize Palestinian blood as equal to Israelis. You give more weight to the blood of the occupiers than Palestinians, when in reality, their blood should be equal in humankind.
I mean seriously, are you going to start making the case that the apartheid was good in South Africa too? (Oh wait, Israel did that too!)
I read all news, obviously you do not.
AsimG
January 24, 2009 at 2:40 AM
As for your argument of equivalency, let’s put it to the test.
How many schools, synagogues, hospitals and UN builidings has Hamas destroyed in Israel?
Your logic makes no sense at all! Even the towns that Hamas fired rockets upon WERE ONCE PALESTINIAN TOWNS!
Open your eyes, watch Occupation 101 on youtube or talk to someone outside of US and Israel.
Abd- Allah
January 24, 2009 at 2:46 AM
“The Palestinians have targeted and killed civilians for many years.”
WHICH Palestinians are you talking about here? They aren’t even recognized as an independant country internationally, so you can’t blame them ALL for what SOME of them do, whereas you can blame Israel as a country for what it does. Besides, if you just substitute ‘Palestinians’ with ‘Israelis’ in the statement you made above, it will still be true.
You say the Palestinians are in no position to claim moral high grounds, then do you say that the Israelis are in a position to claim moral high grounds, especially since you confessed that “The Jews just have a larger capacity to kill” and they often use the excuse of “self defense” to kill as much innocent people as they want.
“The problem with you is you’re biased, no matter what I or anyone else says, you’re gonna believe in the propaganda you’ve been fed for an extended period of time.”
I can say the same thing about you… we ALL have been brainwashed in some way or another, so just like I am biased in my views, so are you.
Horace
January 24, 2009 at 3:01 AM
The moral highground is clear.
Over 1000 Palestinians are dead and almost 5000 severely injured.
The Washington Post shows an Israeli and a Palestinian crying.
The Palestinian woman’s 5 children were just killed.
The Israeli is “in shock” and not injured at all.
And you are telling us that we are biased?
Hamas and suicide bombing are all new concepts and even THEN suicide bombing has stopped according to the ceasefire that Hamas abided by and Israel did not.
The problem is you don’t recognize Palestinian blood as equal to Israelis. You give more weight to the blood of the occupiers than Palestinians, when in reality, their blood should be equal in humankind.
I mean seriously, are you going to start making the case that the apartheid was good in South Africa too? (Oh wait, Israel did that too!)
I read all news, obviously you do not.
First we must take the number of casualties reported with some skepticism since the only reporters in Gaza were Palestinians stringers working for larger news sources, the Palestinians are biased for sure. The Palestinians have in the past inflated casualty numbers, the so called Jenin massacre for instance. This is not to say the Palestinians are the only ones to do this. The same happened in Kosovo, and just a few months ago in South Ossetia. I’m not biased in any way. I admit both sides have no problems killing civilians and have purposely targeted them in the past. Israel has killed more Palestinians because they the capacity to do that. The Palestinians have killed fewer Jews not out of wanting to, but a lack of capacity. Neither side has the moral high ground or cry to the International community, because have used usavory tactics, just one side has more resources to kill.
Debra
January 24, 2009 at 3:03 AM
Israel is responsible for Apartheid? Wow pretty powerful people those Israelis. According to radical Islam, Israel is responsible for pretty much everything. Who knew that a few million people could be responsible for so very much. What exactly is Islam responsible for?
akhi
January 24, 2009 at 3:08 AM
Hey Debra,
This was an interesting piece written in 1922 by Henry Ford, the founder of the American Ford Motor industry.
The International Jew
“It is rather surprising is it not? That which ever way you turn to trace the harmful streams of influence that flow through society, you come upon a group of Jews. In sports corruption, a group of Jews. In exploiting finance, a group of Jews. In theatrical degeneracy, a group of Jews. In liquor propaganda, a group of Jews. Absolutely dominating the wireless communications of the world, a group of Jews. The menace of the movies, a group of Jews. In control of the press through business and financial pressure, a group of Jews. War profiteers, 80 percent of them, Jews. The mezmia of so-called popular music, which combines weak mindedness, with every suggestion of lewdness, Jews. Organizations of anti-Christian laws and customs, again Jews.
It is time to show that the cry of bigot is raised mostly by bigots. There is a religious prejudice in this country; there is, indeed, a religious persecution, there is a forcible shoving aside of the religious liberties of the majority of the people. And this prejudice and persecution and use of force, is Jewish and nothing but Jewish.
If it is anti-Semitism to say that Communism in the United States is Jewish, so be it. But to the unprejudiced mind it will look very much like Americanism. Communism all over the world and not only in Russia is Jewish.”
Debra
January 24, 2009 at 3:08 AM
I could name hundreds of terrorist acts that Islam is proud of. I’ll pick one. What was it when terrorists went into a Yeshiva and killed eight unarmed young boys who were minding their own business?
What kind of cartoons are running through your heads? You are terrorists. Your religion is not that of the Quran. It calls for peace. You are not peaceful and you are not Muslims. You are terrorists. They are different things.
You are going about peace the wrong way. You cannot make peace with terror.
Horace
January 24, 2009 at 3:09 AM
You say the Palestinians are in no position to claim moral high grounds, then do you say that the Israelis are in a position to claim moral high grounds, especially since you confessed that “The Jews just have a larger capacity to kill” and they often use the excuse of “self defense” to kill as much innocent people as they want.
“The problem with you is you’re biased, no matter what I or anyone else says, you’re gonna believe in the propaganda you’ve been fed for an extended period of time.”
I can say the same thing about you… we ALL have been brainwashed in some way or another, so just like I am biased in my views, so are you.
I’m not the biased, I have no dog in this fight. I have no religious or ethnic relations with those involved. Neither side has the moral highground. The Israelis kill civilians, as do the Palestinians, and both do it purposely. Israel has killed kids, and the Palestinians have killed Israeli children. Israel kills more because they have a modern military. Before Israel built their “wall” the Palestinians never passed up the oppurtunity to kill Israelis. Both sides have no respect for Geneva convention or UN rules on war, not that I support either of those bodies.
Debra
January 24, 2009 at 3:09 AM
Akhi, you are sadly misinformed.
Debra
January 24, 2009 at 3:16 AM
Akhi, everywhere you go there are also Christians, Muslims, Hindu. Do you think, that just because you were raised the way you were that you definitely have the total flick? Do you really believe that you were lucky enough to be born to parents and a religion that has all the answers. If you were born in rural wisconsin or Italy, you would be Christian and would believe that just as much.
In every walk of life there are all religions. Every religion has good and bad people. There are Jews who have also developed cures for diseases and done many other wonderful things. You aren’t talking about that. What is Islam contributing right now other than terror? Honestly. I am not being argumentative. I am a Christian. I think my religion is right. I don’t wish death to those who don’t agree with me.
I am intelligent enough to know that nobody knows what God, Allah, etc. would want. We are nothing compared to Him/Her. We can’t begin to guess. That you believe so certainly is only a product of your upbringing. Your prejudices against Jews are also a product of your upbringing.
There are better ways to do this. Yours is not right. Use the brain Allah gave you and don’t be a lemming Be a leader for peace. Jews, like everyone, have good and bad. Recognize THAT. Then you begin to be a real Muslim.
Abd- Allah
January 24, 2009 at 3:40 AM
25:63 And the servants of ((Allah)) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, “Peace!”;
Debra
January 24, 2009 at 3:48 AM
Yep, peace is stupid, alright. Much better to live with death and destruction. What intelligent person among us wouldn’t choose that. Honestly, stop with the scripture. Look at the behavior and progress that IT IS NOT MAKING for you. You were taught this hate. Peace isn’t ignorant, it is the way all of your children that you claim to love can live and be well…and happy. Those that say peace is ignorant are indeed, the ignorant. How can you believe this stuff? I have studied Islam and it’s way are ways of peace. Not this.
When you can think for yourself, then your comments might mean something.
Hamish
January 24, 2009 at 5:58 AM
Debra, Abd-Allah’s quote shows you that you are wasting your time. It does not matter what Israel does. The Palestinians to not WANT peace. Israel can give them anything and everything they want and it will never be enough. Ever. Give up. Get some sleep.
J.Smith
January 25, 2009 at 10:34 AM
I just want to make sure we are talking about the same Palestinians that celebrated the 9/11 attacks?? How soon we forget? And you say Israel has closed its borders, well, just to be fair so has Egypt! Another point I would like to make is that Israel will treat any Gaza resident that needs medical attention, for crying out loud there are Palestinians that live in Israel.
Radicals are the problem wheather they are Jewish, Muslim, Catholic or Christian. Peace is what is needed but extremists will not let it happen. Their views on life are corrupt; the world as we know it today has changed from the sacred texts ideals of how the world should be.
Any country who is being attacked has the right to defend its people. War is unfair, War is unjust, War is brutal. No one denies that but people say there is a difference between a legal war and an illegal war. Then how do you fight a legal war?? War and Legal in the same sentence is an oxymoron, it makes no sense.
I hope for Peace in the Middle East, for the civillians that deserve it. Some of you may not believe that a jew and a muslim can live in harmony. Well I say come to Canada and you will see the living proof. Although, there may be disagreements between the two parties, in Canada we solve are problems diplomatically not physically.
May Peace be with You!
Amad
January 25, 2009 at 2:22 PM
Yes, “SOME” Palestinians may have supported it, just like some Israelis were seen dancing:
Actually, this is far more sinister and much more interesting as there seems to be ex-ante setup for celebrations vs. post-ex. I am not saying Israel is responsible for the attack, but it sure seems that some of their agents were prepared/aware of it, and to your point, celebrating the attack.
So, is it fair for you to point to a few desperate people looking for any reason to celebrate? I think if someone (say person A) caged you in your house and then Person A used weapons supplied by another person (say Person B) to terrorize you, and then something bad happens to Person B’s family, I would say it would be a natural reaction to feel some joy (as unfortunate and perverted it might be). After all, they are human beings. On the other hand, for ANY Israeli to celebrate after being given the key to America and all its wealth, that indeed would be condemnable.
I agree radicals are problems. But you painted the entire Palestinians as such. So, stereotyping is never healthy and leads to justification for assaulting an entire nation, as it happened in Gaza. Yes, any country is free to defend its people, but not if it first causes hatred and causes mass suffering, and then reacts disproportionately (this word fails to even catch the gravity any more) to a suffering people’s “baby” reaction. You should read the article again, and try reading the linked “farmocracy” allegory… you seem like a reasonable person and it may occur to you that as much as you try, Israel cannot escape its role as the aggressor.
I fully believe that Jews and Muslims can live together peacefully. They were in fact doing that in Middle East; did you know that there was a minority population of Jews living in Palestine side by side as neighbors to Arabs? And then the scourge of Zionism, even as many of the Jewish inhabitants (not the immigrants) were against it, destroyed the entire region.
Johnson
January 25, 2009 at 3:14 PM
Wow… Your analogy leaves out key differences in the situation and thereby reveals your ignorance of the situation. Your skewed opinions make this world a more poisonous world to live in, with every reader who happens upon your teachings.
ibnabeeomar
January 25, 2009 at 5:05 PM
Johnson – thanks for dropping by, we’re looking forward to more of this great analysis and explanation of the issues from your perspective in the future :)
Hamish
January 25, 2009 at 7:31 PM
There were no dancing Israelis at the falling of the Twin Towers. To infer there were is obscene and a lie. Israel had nothing to do with the falling of the tower. It was proudly claimed by Bin Ladin and the Palestinians were throwing candy at all the death.
Amad
January 25, 2009 at 7:56 PM
Huh Hamish??
Are you kidding me or is it too much to stomach the truth?? It was on ABC and several other news outlets, including the Israeli paper Haaretz. Did you even click on the links provided or are you too afraid to have your perfect Israeli fantasy world come crashing down?
Did I say that Israel had anything to do with 9/11 or is just another “lets change the topic so people don’t find out”? Or is this defensiveness out of fear that comes out of questions as to why Israeli agents were prepared to video-tape the towers coming down? Could you explain why these agents didn’t alert the US authorities? Or would that have spoiled the event that has helped Israel more than any other nation in the world? You admit that it did, don’t you? Even your chicken-hawks will accept the fact that 9/11 was a heavenly gift for Israel, giving it permission to engage in collective punishment over its occupied territories (in the name of war against terrorism), even if Israel was not responsible for the towers.
Bottomline, what is worse? Palestinians throwing candy at death, or some Israelis have pre-knowledge of 9/11 and celebrating it nearby? Don’t tell me that the American mainstream media (including FOX) where this was reported is anti-Israel… because that would be make for the joke of this young century.
Here it is for you again… this time allow your fingers to click on the links:
here, here and here
J.Smith
January 26, 2009 at 1:18 AM
Amad, thank you for linking me the article. Clearly, you have not even read it at its entirety. Let me show you what the article says so you can see for yourself. First, “The five men were held in detention for more than two months. Some of them were placed in solitary confinement for 40 days, and some of them were given as many as seven lie-detector tests…But the FBI told ABCNEWS, “To date, this investigation has not identified anybody who in this country had pre-knowledge of the events of 9/11…Sources also said that even if the men were spies, there is no evidence to conclude they had advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11. The investigation, at the end of the day, after all the polygraphs, all of the field work, all the cross-checking, the intelligence work, concluded that they probably did not have advance knowledge of 9/11,” Cannistraro noted. Now that we have cleared that up lets move on. In other words there is no proof they had prior knowledge.
Remember, Amad, speculation leads to false pretence and assumptions. There has been lots of speculation that the USA set up the entire 9/11 attack. So do you believe this too? There is many clips of palestinians celebrating, literally celebrating the death of INNOCENT people. People they have never met in there life and you have the nerve to say “what is worse people throwing candy in celebration of innocent people dying or people withholding information that could save innocent peoples lives?” It is people like you that try to create the image of one being better than the other. They are both condemable! Neither is better nor worse, they are equally wrong.
Amad, I would like to make it clear to you that I have never painted a picture that all palestinians are bad and all jews are good. I was simply correcting others mistakes. Not all Palestians support the war and neither does every Jew. If you remember I said ” I hope peace reaches those who deserve it!” I never pointed out one race.
My final point is that this comment-to-comment response is hard to make one’s point crystal clear. But I will say that it is interesting that you never commented on any positive things I have said. Only the negative, for you have proved a valid point about humanity, obsessed with negative energy.
May peace be with YOU!
Amad
January 26, 2009 at 12:58 PM
J. Smith, if you review the links carefully, there were enough eye-witnesses to the celebration of the 5 Israelis that it is hard to deny. So we know:
With the power of the Israel Lobby, and the unparalleled embarrassment (for Israel) and public outrage that the issue of pre-knowledge, even if confirmed, would have caused, combined with Bush government’s appeasement of everything Israel, leads me to question the fairness of the entire process of what happened to these agents. This link to “whatreallyhappened” pieces together the picture a bit better. I believe that the site does make some compelling arguments, at least on the Israeli agents’ aspect. I don’t agree with their ultimate conclusions, because I do not believe in any setup conspiracy theory(that answers your other question). It is one thing to know about a plot, and another to be actively engage in it.
J. Smith, while you did not state that all Palestinians are bad, your mention of the 9/11 and celebrations, which has NOTHING to do with the Gaza massacre, can only there be for one reason– as sort of justification for what the Palestinians got (because they are so evil). Why else would this be even brought up?
I am glad that you state both (the Israeli agents and the Palestinian celebrations) are condemnable but I think you would agree that IF indeed (let’s keep the qualifier) the Israeli agents had pre-knowledge but did not disseminate it to the right authorities, then that is far worse than celebrating. There is a spectrum of “evil”. Not all wrongs are equivalent. Slapping someone is wrong and condemnable but killing someone, while condemnable, is far worse.
I appreciate your positive spirit towards the end, and your hopes for peace. In this we share the spirit. I think part of that spirit is to stop bringing irrelevant aspects of history into the conflict, and that would include both the Israeli agents celebrating and the Palestinians celebrating, because these incidents are neither the cause nor the solution for this struggle for peace. I will happily do my part when the Israeli supporters stop dragging irrelevant 9/11 reminders.
P.S. You will find comments on MM where I myself have asked others to not stereotype Jews and made positive comments about their contributions to society. You will also find a post or link about how Jewish activists were involved in peace. I also consistently point to Haaretz as an example of how not all Jews share the same sentiments towards Palestinians.
Hamish
January 26, 2009 at 1:29 AM
Amad, I’d agree with you if you were right.
Hamish
January 26, 2009 at 1:37 AM
Amad, since Bin Ladin did proudly claim the attacks, are you inferring that he is working with Israelis? J. Smith is right when he says you or any other Muslim has ever commented on his/her positive comments. I notice that nothing positive about Jews is ever commented on and the things that are levied against the Jews, ie., responsible for apartheid, are not only hypothetical, but only hypothesized by Muslims. Muslims were offered their own state which they denied. Muslims were given a highly functioning Gaza with businesses and homes, which they promptly and amazingly destroyed. Muslims are taught hate from the womb, which is nearly impossible to enlighten. What are the chances for peace, which Abd Allah, says is for fools? What is there to work with here?
Miako
January 26, 2009 at 12:24 PM
Akhi,
your post on Henry Ford is offensive, to say the least. Do you have a framed picture of Adolph Hitler on your desk? I wonder…
Amad,
I for one understand that most Zionists bought their land legally from the Palestinians, in the pre-1948 timeperiod, even if they did not always arrive in the country legally. I believe that the seeds of discontent were sown equally on Palestinian and Israeli fields, neighbor set against neighbor
There are very few countries that have managed to escape genocidal wars that split the nation among tribal/religion/ethnic grounds.
Israel made a very bad mistake by treating the Palestinians as “other”, and thus thinking that the Arabs ought to take care of the Arabs, and that Israel bore no responsiblity for people under their rule.
J.Smith
January 26, 2009 at 5:25 PM
Amad, to answer your question of why I brought the Palestinians celebration of 9/11 up? I felt the overall tone of the comments was very pro-Palestine. Which is perfectly acceptable for I am no dictator. I just wanted to shed light that both parties are responsible for many disgusting acts.
Atleast we agree that radicals and extremists are too blame.
However, you are right when you say “I think part of that spirit is to stop bringing irrelevant aspects of history into the conflict, and that would include both the Israeli agents celebrating and the Palestinians celebrating, because these incidents are neither the cause nor the solution for this struggle for peace”. They are irrelevent issues.
I appreciate you balanced vision as it has become harder and harder to keep a straight eye.
May peace be with you!
Amad
January 26, 2009 at 5:51 PM
And with you too, J. Smith.
Abd- Allah
January 26, 2009 at 10:31 PM
Hamish, before you put words in my mouth, go re-read what I said. I never said peace is for fools. Keep reading my last comment over and over until you understand exactly what I said. It is not my problem if you can’t seem to understand my simple words. Or maybe that is what YOU were thinking yourself so you assumed that this is what I was saying. Afterall, a liar thinks that everyone else is always lying..
hamish
January 26, 2009 at 10:44 PM
you’ll have to enlighten me. I have reread the quote and that’s what I see.
Abd- Allah
January 26, 2009 at 11:26 PM
Hamish, this verse from the Quran is talking about the servants of Allah, the Most Gracious, and these people walk on the earth with humility. I, and most Muslims, strive to become one of these people. The verse goes on to say that when an ignorant person addresses these people with words full of ignorance and hate, they do not try to get back at this person or insult him, but rather they say “peace”, meaning they want peace, and do not want to fight and argue with that ignorant person who ignorantly attacks them with false claims. So most Muslims are actually striving for peace, and they do not try to get back at ignorant people who only want to make false claims against them and insult them without having any sincere intentions to understand the truth and accept it. I hope that this explanation helped you understand what I meant when I posted that verse in my comment.
25:63 And the servants of ((Allah)) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, “Peace!”;
Hamish
January 27, 2009 at 1:14 AM
This is a sincere question as I know quite a bit about your religion and have always found it to be one of peace: why seek peace with the means that the extremists are using? I have had the joy and pleasure of working with many wonderful Muslim people over the years and am good friends with two families specifically that I consider family myself. They are appalled by this behavior. My question then becomes not only why are these means used, but why are other Muslims not expressing vehemently their dissatisfaction with these means? Do you think it is fear or do you think that in this instance war is something that is wanted? I know the Quran is peace. I may be wrong on this next part, but I was also under the impression that the Quran did not have a quarrel with Jewish people or other religions. This makes me wonder about the killing of “infidels”.
Everything that is happening, Abd-Allah, is a complete 180 from what I have always thought to be true about the Quran and your religion in general. I have a good friend, Nassar, who says that this is not the way of Islam and disagrees with these tactics. I strongly believe more could be accomplished peacefully than with these means. If everyone used an eye for an eye, we’d all be blind. Do you understand what I am asking? I mean no disrespect and no malice. I am sure I do sound ignorant to you and in this extremist behavior, I feel I am since this is not what I’ve ever known of Islam and the Quran.
Hamish
January 27, 2009 at 1:25 AM
Also, I’m sorry I said you were lying. That wasn’t nice.
Maria
January 28, 2009 at 5:12 AM
I thought the Palestinians were never expelled, but left of their own volition rather than share the land, or were told to leave by Arab leaders at the time?
E.g. The Economist on October 2, 1948 reported: “Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit… It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades.”
Time’s report of the battle for Haifa (May 3, 1948): “The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city… By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.”
In December 1947, historian Benny Morris said, “Arab officers ordered the complete evacuation of specific villages in certain areas, lest their inhabitants ‘treacherously’ acquiesce in Israeli rule or hamper Arab military deployments.” He concluded, “There can be no exaggerating the importance of these early Arab-initiated evacuations in the demoralization, and eventual exodus, of the remaining rural and urban populations” (Benny Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, MA: Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 590.)