Sex and the Ummah
Muslims’ Unfortunate Bragging Rights for Sex Searches! (Sex & the Muslim Ummah)
In my last post, I discussed sex ed. as it relates to children. As I started doing some background research for Part II of this article regarding the need or lack thereof of sexual education for adults, I came across some interesting data, which seemed to deserve its own post, this one!
It should be pretty obvious to most of us, especially the Muslims who still maintain ties/visitations to the “motherlands” that the Muslim world does indeed have a problem with sex. There is a growing level of promiscuity, sexual frustration, intimate problems in marriage, etc. that are causing havoc in the Muslim countries. Tariq Nelson had discussed this topic sometime back in this article.
A quick analysis of google-trends affirms the problem. See the table below, which may be somewhat startling to some people, yet not surprising at all to others. Pakistan has the unfortunate bragging right, atop the list for the most proportional searches of the term “sex” on google (based on all-time searches). Proportionality measures the number of times that the term “sex” is searched, divided by the total number of all searches. Sadly, 7 out of the top 10 “sex”-search nations are Muslim countries, including the countries usually considered the most “conservative” in popular opinion– Saudi Arabia and Iran. Interestingly, while Pakistan and Egypt are firmly entrenched as #1 and #2 respectively, Saudi and Iran have slipped out of the top-ten in the last 2 years. This of course is not voluntary. Thankfully, both Saudi and Iran have installed web filtration that is preventing this feed of mental perversion to the region, likely in the time frame of 2005-2006.
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Of course, while internet may have been somewhat effectively blocked (though I reckon that novice users would find their way around the filters) , the steady flow of other sources of pornography, erotica and other destroyers of hearts and minds continues. There is Satellite TV, videos, etc. that provides what internet may have been prevented to.
The crippled, hollow hearts then search for all sorts of ways to engage in what the body is forbidden or does not have the resources to engage in. New technology continues to provide new ways to engage in secret rendezvous, which eventually lead to further corruption. No more need for cell-phone flinging when you can use blue-tooth now. No more need for scribbling cell-phone numbers… as this blog entry from a few months ago highlights.
It begs the question though as to whether bans really do the trick? While I am a proponent of starving the inflow of perversity through any channels to a Muslim populace, the question is why is this populace in so much need for this trash? Why is there this desperation, this hidden desire for haraam? I know many older immigrants from the Muslim countries will insist, and rightfully so, that this is a relatively recent phenomenan, perhaps dating back to the last 20 or so years.
My theory for what it is worth is that the advent of pornography on demand in the form of videos, satellite TV, and then internet has slowly fed sexual perversion into the hearts and minds of the Muslim youth for the last two decades. While on the outside, the norms of Muslim society prevented the actual “practice” of what the corrupted hearts and minds now desired, people have been caught up between two different worlds: a world of sex on their TV sets and computer monitors, and a world of the literal and metaphorical hijab and “parda” on the outside. This of course breeds the underground world of sexual escapades and desperation, to the point of being turned-on by the sight of feet (as in the case where women wear complete jilbab/niqab), secret messages and encounters, and the like.
So, what to do about it? The solution is not and cannot be to open up the society and have a free for all as in the Western world. Yes, if you open everything up, people may not need to search for sex on the internet when it becomes readily available in the physical form. But that of course is worse and not the goal.
Part of the solution, IMHO, is to start with the kids and I already discussed this in the Sex ed. post I wrote before. If children are trained and raised in a way that prevents (to the extent possible) the desire for secret perversions and “secret learnings” where sex is this huge taboo that has to be talked about when parents are not present, then this prevention would be a positive first step. Knowledge is power, even for kids. And pure knowledge of Islam is the most powerful foe of Shaytan’s planned little steps for little kids.
This does not solve the problem for those who are already affected. In this case, early marriage is definitely a help. As Dr. Athar mentions here,
“I am not proposing that all Muslim youth be married at age 16. But I must say that youth should accept the biological instinct and make decisions which will help a more satisfied life devoted to the career rather than spending time in chasing (or dreaming about) the opposite sex. Parents should help their sons and daughters in selection of their mate using Islamic practice as a criteria and not the race, color or wealth. They should encourage them to know each other in a supervised setting.”
And there is no guarantee that marriage will solve the problem. I have heard from enough sources that there is a strong underground swingers movement in Pakistan, revealing not only the level of sexual perversity but also a complete disappearance of a sense of chivalry amongst some Muslims. Thus, not only is there a need for early marriage, but also a need for “continuing education” classes for adults, in the light of Islamic texts. Dr. Heba Qotb is filling some of this need on an Arab Satellite TV (see here and here). I have to admit that I haven’t seen any of her programs, so I am not in a position of evaluating the content. But it does seem that she is approaching it the right way.
There is no doubt that Muslim adults have a lot of questions… about 10% of all questions on the popular Islam-QA site are related to the search term “sex”– in all about 600 questions; more than “basic tenets”, “Quran” and “Hadith” combined! So, my next article will talk more about this subject. Until then, chime in. And to throw in a related curve-ball, I would like you to especially chime in whether you think there should be sex ed. talks at Texas Dawah, separate for men and women?
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Mujahideen Ryder
July 29, 2007 at 4:06 PM
Good post. This is a very sad disease within the ummah.
May Allah (swt) protect us from this.
Vallie
July 29, 2007 at 10:39 PM
“My theory for what it is worth is that the advent of pornography on demand…has slowly fed sexual perversion into the hearts and minds of the Muslim youth for the last two decades.”
Translation of Sahih Bukhari,
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88:
Narrated ‘Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html
Nasir
July 29, 2007 at 10:50 PM
Assalamu Alaikum,
I dont agree brother because if you use more explicit sexual terms the results for muslim countries are much lower.Searching the word sex is more a sign of curiosity rather than perversity.
I problems howver arise becasue people on the computer lack the hayat (shyness) they would in real life.
I think the best solution is as one Shaykh said to keep the computer in an open area of the home such as the living room.
And not to allow yourself or your children to keep the computer in their bedroom room or access the internet in a private place.
Sequoia
July 29, 2007 at 10:54 PM
Vallie,
first marriages were consumated at a younger age back then. Mary (mother of Jesus) was herself very very young when she married Joseph who was much older than her. I have no clue what the average age for marriage was for woman during Muhamed or Mary’s time….but I think you are misreprenting the problem. Basically what you are trying to say, is that Muhamed was a “pedophile” and all the sexual problems within the ummah or Muslim countries stem from this. I find it a very very weak argument. So let’s see….Amad says that easier access to pornography has led or at least contributed to this problem. How can you disagree with this? Sexual curiosity has exsited in all cultures and all countries from the beginning of time. But with the advent of the internet and easier access to pronography, there is the consequence of more people having access to it. There is no doubt that porn does cloud peoples perceptions of sex and does affect relationships. To me your quote was just an attempt to insult every member of this community and cheapen the discussion.
The Wahhabi Misanthrope
July 29, 2007 at 10:56 PM
“This of course breeds the underground world of sexual escapades and desperation, to the point of being turned-on by the sight of feet (as in the case where women wear complete jilbab/niqab)”
I don’t see how that particular fetish is any less strange than those surrounding any other parts of female anatomy e.g. the neck or arm etc. It’s only because the effects of socialisation permeate you so thoroughly when it comes to sex, that certain fetishes are considred ‘normal’ and others aren’t.
Abdullah
July 30, 2007 at 12:09 AM
Sequoia,
The dirty woman isnt making a rational argument that the marriage to Ayesha RA is the cause of Fahisha, rather she’s insulting the prophet saw.
And when the Pagans insulted the prophet saw what did Abu Bakr say, He RA told them to go suck on the womb of Al Uzzah
And likewise I tell her she can go to hell
Don’t waste your effort giving dawah to people who’s intention is to mock or insult the deen of Allah or his Nabu saw.
Dawah should be given to a person who seems receptive, curious or shows interest. Not a person who’s making an attack on Islam.
Someone
July 30, 2007 at 4:39 AM
Pseudo social science at its very worse. A non story contrived out of non-data.
Umm Reem
July 30, 2007 at 8:36 AM
>> “I think the best solution is as one Shaykh said to keep the computer in an open area of the home such as the living room.
And not to allow yourself or your children to keep the computer in their bedroom room or access the internet in a private place.”
SubhanAllah…this is such a wise thing to say
Amad
July 30, 2007 at 9:25 AM
Abdullah: your last comment was deleted. Please refrain from direct attacks or cursing. Btw, Sequoia is not “giving dawah”; he does not share our Islamic faith. He is responding in a logical, calm manner… manner that is consistent with most religions, incl. ours. So, Sequoia: Thank you for your “calm” response.
Vallie: we have known you for a long time with the same shtick… posting unrelated information and in general, acting like a troll. Please note that your future comments, if not directly linked to the topic, and if having no real purpose except to inflame, will be also moderated.
Someone: This non-data was not created out of thin air by google, unless you believe that this is another Jewish conspiracy?
Nasir: I can agree with the spirit of your comments. Even in this “bad” news, there is some good news. That people have some level of haya to do it secretly. And that it is not “open game” in the society that is forcing them to go “undercover”. While in the West, there is no need to hide, because there is little modesty and fahsha is available openly and easily.
ExEx Blogger
July 30, 2007 at 10:23 AM
Oh…beef going on here.
Steven_L
July 30, 2007 at 3:46 PM
I’ve just amused myself for 10 minutes on ‘Google trends’ searching for various sexual terms.
edited – sorry some of the content material was too explicit for this site. -mod
Asiya
July 30, 2007 at 5:01 PM
It’s interesting how out of hand the comments seem to get. This was a really good post. I’ve often wondered about the obvious sexual perversity of many Muslim countries and can’t help but feel really ashamed of our brothers (and sisters?) but also angry at ourselves for not doing anything to help. Children AND adults need a good lesson in sex ed and it needs to start from a young age and continue into adulthood. The doors of communication need to be more open so that people don’t have to resort to looking up info on the net where information is very unreliable.
AnonyMouse
July 30, 2007 at 5:07 PM
Well, I’m not in Texas, but I do think that it’s a very important subject to talk about.
The weekly women’s halaqah that we have here almost always, at some point or another, ends up discussing this subject simply because the grown women have so many misconceptions regarding it – and I’m sure the men have their own issues too!
Amad
July 30, 2007 at 5:30 PM
“Well, I’m not in Texas”
Actually, the Texas Dawah Convention happens during the Christmas break annually and more than 50% of the people who come there are not local.
Sr. Asiya, jazakAllahkhair for trying to steer the post discussion back on track. I was a bit surprised that this post did not get the traction I thought it would, considering what the data is telling us.
For many folks, who dream about migrating back to the “motherlands”, this is something they need to consider. Unfortunately, Muslim countries may not have that much open perversity as the West, but the secret, hidden one may actually make it HARDER, not easier to keep the children/teens away from fahshah. Because, you can’t point to something and say that “Muslims don’t do this” because everyone pretty much is Muslim. So, it becomes harder to explain. Moreover, because everyone is “in on the secret”, it provides greater underground opportunity than in the West.
So, what to do? Stay here and expose the children to the open fahshah, or go “back” and expose them to a secret underground world that is growing massively by the day. It’s a conundrum with no simple answer!
Zahra Billoo
July 30, 2007 at 5:45 PM
subhan’Allah. Great minds think alike?
Affad Shaikh addressed the same topic months ago at Muslamics.
Check out his perspective:
http://muslamics.blogspot.com/2007/03/sex-deprivedwhat-is-going-on.html
Nur
January 6, 2016 at 8:02 PM
Women and men are not respected as equals in reality. Equality must be granted to women. : not having segregation of people on the basis of sex – because that results in women becoming prisoners in their own homes and if everyone is dressed there is nothing wrong with it – it’s called communicating with one another as human beings. Also, so that the adab of communicating with each other is learnt from School age and so that meetings with the opposite sex are not turned into a sexualised event.
Women and men having equal rights: to seek divorce, to represent and run mosques and charity boards, to have access to all prayer space front and back, to not be objectified through the subject of clothing – eg almost exclusively this is an obsession in regards to females, to become imams, to be accepted into Islamic education establishments to become scholars, to recite aloud the adhan and the Quran and anything else. Without this I don’t see things changing. It’s a worldwide issue but the above inequalities cause women to see themselves and men see them as unequal and objectified. Sexual abuse and harassment is taboo but is very much alive, esp in segregated Muslim countries where to not cover up is either a crime by law or in societies eyes – so there is no choice FOR women that is. There is an attitude of male entitlement towards women who have become so objectified and invisible that they are only considered in terms of sex. I am absolutely sick of it.
MK
July 30, 2007 at 6:49 PM
Getting back to the article, I ran the same search for 2007 and founds the list to be somewhat different to the above articel:
1. Egypt
2. India
3. Viet Nam
4. Morocco
5. Turkey
6. Poland
7. Romania
8. Hungary
9. Denmark
10. Belgium
A much more equal split between East and West.
More of interestingly, when I ran the word “islam” – the following results appear:
1. Indonesia
2. Malaysia
3. Pakistan
4. Morocco
5. Turkey
6. Egypt
7. Norway
8. Belgium
9. United Kingdom
10. Sweden
From this would we conclude the Muslim nations are interested in Islam, a long with a number of western countries?!
Amad
July 30, 2007 at 8:56 PM
Yes, I tried it again, and the results appear different from when I posted the article. Very interesting.
Ahmad AlFarsi
July 30, 2007 at 10:02 PM
Vallie,
The Prophet Muhammad, sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam (peace and blessings be upon him), embodied the perfection of morality. You do not. As Muslims, we derive our standard of right and wrong from the Divine revelation. However, it seems you, and those with you, tend to derive morality from cultural standards.
Let me break it down for you. Due to your “cultural sensitivities,” it is wrong for a 50+ year old man to marry a 6 year old… no matter what. Probably if you lived in Arabia in the 6th century (right before Islam), you would also find it “morally wrong” to not kill your infant daughter. After all, when your moral sensibilities are derived from culture, they will vary this vastly. (Note: when Islam arrived, it harshly condemned the practice of female infanticide, although this practice was accepted as culturally necessary by the pre-Islamic Arabs.)
According to modern day American standards, it is perfectly acceptable to go meet up with a girl randomly, sleep with her (have a one night stand), and carry no responsibility for this action whatsoever. Most Americans believe this is OK… of course as long as they use protection …. see what I mean? To make a long story short, when one derives his or her moral standards from culture (instead of from God), they will end up morally depraved.
According to the hadeeth you quoted, the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) married Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) when she was six, and the marriage was consummated when she reached puberty. As a Muslim, I find nothing wrong with this action in the least; the Prophet (sallAlllaahu alayhi wa sallam) was the best of mankind.
I pray that Allah guides you to the straight path of Islam. Aameen.
Vallie
July 30, 2007 at 10:09 PM
As I expected, my post deleted and Muhammad venerated. So be it.
“To me your quote was just an attempt to insult every member of this community and cheapen the discussion.”
To me that quote represents all that is wrong with Islam. Someone points out an uncomfortable truth and instantly they are called a bigot or a troll and the uncomfortable truth goes unconfronted. Until those many truths within Islam are dealt with it will continue to be seen as a seventh century throwback. I do not wish to insult “this community,” especially Ruth, but perception is everything sometimes. The general perception of Islam among the many people I know who are familiar with the subject is …well, not good.
*
Bhagavad Gita, chapter 11, verses 31-33
Tell me who are You in such a fierce form? My salutations to You, O best of gods, be merciful! I wish to understand You, the primal Being, because I do not know Your mission.
The Supreme Lord said: I am death, the mighty destroyer of the world, out to destroy. Even without your participation all the warriors standing arrayed in the opposing armies shall cease to exist.
Therefore, get up and attain glory. Conquer your enemies and enjoy a prosperous kingdom. All these (warriors) have already been destroyed by Me. You are only an instrument, O Arjuna.
*
All of us are but instruments. Gods decide what they will.
abu ameerah
July 30, 2007 at 10:59 PM
@ Vallie …
Wow! You are actually trying to use Hinduism as some kind of model religion or enlightened form of thought. I find that somewhat comical.
Abc
July 31, 2007 at 5:06 AM
The claims of cultural relativity aside (made by Ahmed) as well as all the other rude remarks by other, I hope this may spread some light on the hadith for Vallie.
Vallie,
The hadith that you quote translates the word “dakhala” to mean “consummated”. However the primary meaning of “Dakhala” is “to enter upon” and was used in certained allegorical senses to mean “connsumate”. However its primary usage, even in cases of marriage, is that a man has taken a woman into his home and become financially liable for her.
1. As was arab custom (and as is the case in most pre-modern and 3rd world areas) marriage was contracted for social and economic reasons first and foremost, affections and emotion were generally not primary or even essential reasons for the contracting of a marriage.
2. As was Arab custom, a man would become financially responsible for a woman when she came of age, and as such would live in his domicile.
3. This taken into consideration, as well as the linguistic meaning of the hadith, the following can be said:
– A. The translation is faulty and poorly thought out, and one that projects cultural anachronisms.
– B. This hadith states that Aishah’s marriage was contracted at the age of six, i.e. the marriage was agreed to and contracted.
– C. No where in this hadith is there evidence that sexual contact occurred or was even the reason for her moving to the Prophet’s home, in light of Arab Custom.
– D. Granted that even her move to his home seems strange to some, there is nothing to suggest that a man should not or cannot take financial liability for his legally contracted wife.
– E. Therefore though for some this is strange culturally, culture relativism does come into play in this instance. It would be no stranger than the Kanyadaan or giving dowry to a man is to an American couple getting married.
Others have raised contentions as to the meaning of this hadith, however those contentions still remain to be researched thoroughly.
Umm Reem
July 31, 2007 at 11:50 AM
Here is another nice article from islamonline:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1181062654120&pagename=Zone-English-Family%2FFYELayout
Pingback: muslimmatters.org » The Secret Life of Husbands (Sex & the Muslim Ummah Series)
Pingback: HAYA- What’s ‘dupatta’ gotta do with it? « “Just a Mom”
Vallie
July 31, 2007 at 8:15 PM
I don’t know why you just don’t go ahead and delete ALL of my posts. Oh well, so much for debate.
Abc says, “- C. No where in this hadith is there evidence that sexual contact occurred or was even the reason for her moving to the Prophet’s home, in light of Arab Custom.”
No evidence huh?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/004.sbt.html#001.004.229
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Number 229:
Narrated ‘Aisha:
I used to wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet and he used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it (water spots were still visible).
Dawud
July 31, 2007 at 10:48 PM
So is it normal for Islamophobes to spam on blogs?
I would simply ignore them and not waste my breath.
Abc
August 1, 2007 at 1:54 AM
@ Vallie,
Ok, that is a hadith, but there is nothing in that hadith that mentions that sexual contact occurred between Aisha and the Prophet at the time of the other hadith.
The first hadith which refers to her young age in no way correlates to this hadith. It can be said as well that this hadith pertains to when she was older, not when she was young.
She did progress in age as any human does, and there is nothing in this hadith to indicate when this event happened. So whether she was young or old is up in the air.
brnaeem
August 1, 2007 at 3:13 AM
AA-
Amad, you said: “Muslim countries may not have that much open perversity as the West, but the secret, hidden one may actually make it HARDER, not easier to keep the children/teens away from fahshah. Because, you can’t point to something and say that “Muslims don’t do this” because everyone pretty much is Muslim. So, it becomes harder to explain.”
I’ve heard that logic so many times and to be honest, I find it extremely lacking. First of all, by having a haram constantly in your face (as we find in the West), it creates a desensitization, which is obviously very dangerous.
For example, many of us actually enjoy watching beer commercials because they are soo funny. That’s a problem. Instead of disgust, we are welcoming to such celebrations of the prohibited.
Secondly, a vigilant parent who plays an active role in raising the child will have a MUCH easier time in raising the child in the East than in the West. You are comparing apples to oranges with your logic. You seem to be comparing an unmindful parent in Muslim countries to an Islamically conscious parent in the West – that is NOT a fair comparison.
There are more fallacies to this widespread misconception…I’m still thinking of putting together a post on this topic (concepts of sex in East-West)…maybe your thoughts will finally get me motivated.
Thanks for your thoughts bro!
WA-
Naeem
Amad
August 1, 2007 at 8:53 AM
ASA Br. Naeem. Don’t misunderstand me. I do not mean that this I quoted from you does not happen. And neither am I saying that you are “safer” in the West than the East. All I am saying that it may be harder to explain certain things in certain times.
There are pros and cons of every situation. I tend to agree that it may be easier to raise a child Islamically in a Muslim country because an involved parent can keep up with the “secret life” and the open perversion is not as, I guess, open. I guess that’s why I still have a plan on my books to move. Maybe not for the “Hijrah is obligatory” reasons that I believed in before (and don’t know), but because of children.
Ibrahim
August 2, 2007 at 1:16 AM
br. amad, i agreed with your first post on this issue about not hiding away from what’s in Islamic texts about sex. but, i don’t know how much “education” you want to give to children and “continuing education” to adult….really, it comes down to putting the fear of Allah, really! It might seem simplistic because it’s. This concept of “continuing education”, in my view, is a product of Western thinking, where people aren’t expected to grow forever! If you are an islamically educated muslim in your mid to late teens or older and still affected by this fitna, then I don’t think much education is going to help. also, exactly what education would you give to let’s say a 20 year old (i am not just asking retheorically)? the best thing is to fast, marry early, study Quran to acquire taqwa/fear and have a circle of people who are religious because outside of marrying, fasting, Quran, etc. the friends/family have the most affect here. Allahu A’lam
about statistics, both good or bad that has been quoted (‘sex’ search and ‘islam’ search), what would be more interesting to see is the % of population for each country, but google doesn’t provide that. i mean the poplulation of pakistan is approximately twice that of egypt, i think. now, of course you would hope higher number of people are searching ‘islam’ in pakistan just because there are twice as many people than compared to egypt.
Ahmad
August 3, 2007 at 6:52 PM
Practicing Islam maybe harder in the West but it is ultimately more rewarding. Think about it, if I have access to all that is haraam yet obstain is this not evidence of stronger faith than someone who obstains because it is unavailable?
I remember once reading some literature by an iman who explained why castration or monasticism is not Islamic. Basically, conquering or controlling the desire is more worthy than removing the desire. And I think that is what some Muslim countries do, try to remove the desire or deny the desire yet it comes back to bite them in the foot.
I think this article is an example of how suppression of desires doesn’t lead to their removal but only manifestation in other forms.
Subhan
August 4, 2007 at 3:56 AM
How accurate is this analysis to prove that these Muslim countries are on top of list for “porn searches”?
You have used the keyword “sex” for this, try using “porn”, “erotic”, “slut”, “gay” or any other related term. Do you get the same results?
In all these other keywords u would English speaking nations.
First, in non-english speaking nation “sex” is the only word commonly known and used. So a regional population in these nations looking for porn material will most likely used the word “sex”. But for English speaking nations the same net-population has much higher vocabulary for porn-search. And hence their ranking is diminished. (even though collectively they might be on top of the world)
Second, Use of word “sex” can be for many purpose, apart from porn-searches, like sex-problem, synonym of word gender, etc. It does not exclusively means porn.
But other words (which ranks the Western/European nations on top) are exclusive for porn.
jinnzaman
August 4, 2007 at 10:35 AM
Vallie,
Your argument is flawed since it is predicated on the implicit assumption that marrying a young girl was socially unacceptable. The argument regarding pedophilia is a modern Eurocentric moral judgment that is being made upon a non-European man who lived 1400 years ago. Before one can apply such a critique, one must determine if it is valid.
Even in the time of the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa sallam), while the Arabs accused him of many things and tortured him and abused him, they never accused him of pedophilia. The Arabs themselves had no problem with marrying young girls nor with having multiple wives nor with engaging in fornication. The latter two were both prohibited and limited in Islam. You can’t apply Victorian era moral standards to critique Islam. If you like, we can apply the same moral standards of Islam and critique Western civilization. Look at how your women dress, like sluts and show off their bodies while our women are protected in their honor and beauty. Your men fornicate and leave your women and children with broken homes, while our men protect their homes and preserve the rights of their women. We take care of our elders, while you put them in nursing homes. You people are overweight because you eat unhealthy food from fast food places. Our food is halal and we protect the best interests of both the animals and humans in how we produce our food. We can make an ad infitum amount of moral critiques of Western civilization ranging from religious practices to social issues to political issues to miltary issues and so on and so forth. However, you would response ‘well thats what you believe in Islam, thats not what we believe in.’ The same argument you would make if we critiqued you on those grounds apply to yourself. If you believe morality is universal, then by all means, show us your proof why you feel Western morality is superior.
Nor did the Persians nor did the Romans nor did the Abyssinians.
Moreover, during the Crusades, many kings and nobles had wives who were as young as 12 years old. Since you quoted the Bhagavid Gita, you should realize that marriage between young people was also a common practice in India. Would you bash Mahatma Ghandi for getting married at the age of 13 with his Kasturba who was also 13?
In fact, up until the mid-nineteenth century, the global age of consent ranged from 10 to 13 years old. That was not the average, but the range of age of consent.
So its entirely illogical to take a concept that has only existed in one part of the world for only 150 years and use it to criticize a global practice that existed for thousands of years.
If your argument is that, well, its scientifically proven that marriage at a young age is x, y, or z. My response would be that science is not a source of morality. It is merely the process by which humans make judgments about the universe. It is not a source of a model for human behavior. That can only come from Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) and His Rasul (sallahu alayhi wa sallam).
If you feel Islam is incorrect, then by all means, meet the challenge of Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) which is to produce something like the Qur’an since it is a miracle. If you can’t do something as simple as that, then you must recognize that the Qur’an is inimitable and comes only from Allah (subhana wa ta’ala).
May Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) give you hidayah. Ameen.
masalama
jinnzaman
August 4, 2007 at 10:39 AM
Amad,
Not sure if I agree with the inferences you’ve drawn.
Firstly, not everyone who searches the word ‘sex’ is going to commit zina or watch pornography. You yourself searched to find information about this topic. This doesn’t mean that you engaged in those actions. Some people who search these terms might have a sincere intent to find out the ruling on a particular sexual practice.
Secondly, not everyone in those Muslim countries has access to the internet. The amount of people in Muslim countries who have access to the internet are not as high as they are in America. What you are looking at is probably the upper crust of the Muslim world and those people have always tended to be secular and irreligious anyway.
So I don’t think your presumptions are necessarily correct. You can’t make generalizations based on Google Analytics. That data changes constantly and just because the day you went on there were a lot of Muslim countries, doesn’t mean that its always like that.
masalama
jinnzaman
August 4, 2007 at 10:42 AM
Vallie,
I also wanted to point out that there is a lot of evidence that sexual activity in America begins at the age of 10. If you like, I can share articles with you if you like.
The Wahhabi Misanthrope
August 4, 2007 at 12:34 PM
@ Jinnz: Excellent points. :) It complements my long post here on the husbands thread…
Amad
August 4, 2007 at 3:06 PM
salam JZ… good points as always
The data is “proportional’ searches so I think we agree that on average the Pakistanis or Egyptians using the computer are searching for “sex” more than other countries. I disagree with the rationalization that somehow Pakistanis and Egyptians (just to use the 2 examples) have more research to do than other countries. Rather, it will be over-rationalization and perhaps naive to believe that they are searching “sex” for anything other than the “bad sex”. You quoted my example… but really how many people do you think are academically engaging in this? And even if I grant you this, are Egyptians and Pakistanis so academically in sexuality that their proportional searches exceed that of developed nations?
On this I agree with you. But that is a problem, isn’t it, when our educated and influential class are more into sex than into academics and other ways to improve the situations of our countries? That actually makes this even a more sad situation.
Finally, I also agree that google trends and any “analysis” associated with it has very little scientific value. In fact, google trends tell you not to use their info. in research papers!
jinnzaman
August 5, 2007 at 11:19 PM
Amad,
As I said before, the people who look up the term ‘sex’ are not necessarily doing it for the sake of watching pornography. They could be using it to find out more information about sex. Such as about sexual behavior, sexual etiquette, sexual diseases, sexual habits, etc. There’s more to sex then merely the act. If one goes to various fatwa websites, a lot of the questions people ask are pertaining to sex, this doesn’t necessarily mean that people are fornicating or engaging in deviant behavior.
So while it may be true that ‘sex’ is present on a lot of search engines in a lot of Muslim countries, it isn’t necessarily the case that this has to do solely with pornography or other haram activities.
And again, as I stated, even if this premise is true, the corollary premise that you inferred from it is still not necessary since the people who do use the internet are but a small minority of the general Muslim populace.
Either way, both inferences aren’t necessary nor highly probable. There needs to be more investigation into these types of issues.
masalama
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curious
October 23, 2007 at 4:54 PM
To Ahmad AlFarsi:
You said….
“According to modern day American standards, it is perfectly acceptable to go meet up with a girl randomly, sleep with her (have a one night stand), and carry no responsibility for this action whatsoever. Most Americans believe this is OK… of course as long as they use protection …. see what I mean? To make a long story short, when one derives his or her moral standards from culture (instead of from God), they will end up morally depraved.
”
I have been reading in Islamic forums for quite sometime, and this is a pervasive opinion of muslims ..that all americans/westerners act like this. This is not the truth, and if anything, far from it. This is what you see in movies and on the TV, but in reality, most of us, religious or not, do not feel that this behavior is normal or morally sound. I think that you should be more careful to not generalize a certain population…..it can be harmful to yourself as well as others who do not know the difference. There are people of low moral standards everywhere…those who leave their wife and children, etc…in all countries and cultures.
curious
AnonyMouse
October 23, 2007 at 5:34 PM
Hey curious! Long time no see :)
Ahmad AlFarsi
October 24, 2007 at 12:30 AM
Hi curious,
Incidentally, I am from the very culture that you claim I am mistaken about. I was born and raised here in America, as a non-Muslim, and I reverted to Islam 4 years ago, all praise and thanks be to Allah.
In reality, most of the non-Muslims I have met feel that a “one-night stand” is perfectly fine. I know for a fact that there are exceptions, but, based on the non-Muslims I have met (in South Texas, on the East Coast, and in New England), such exceptions are few and far between. Perhaps you have had a different experience…
StatsMakeSenseMaybe
June 11, 2008 at 2:55 AM
I just came across this stuff. Interesting.
Last I checked pornography is a 15 billion dollar business in the U.S and pretty high number with other “kaffir nations”. Now, there is a subtle but important difference between the word “porn” and “sex”, exception may be pakistan, as they make the list either way I think.
So I think we should look at a stat that shows who likes to type the word “porn” and see how that measures up in the world. Or here is link for some good insights….”Western” countries are not safe from these “perversions”, in fact, it is quite the contrary. Even with paramount level of sexual revolution, western nations tend to take a much bolder step in that direction while the rest follow..!
http://familysafemedia.com/pornography_statistics.html#anchor3
Nur
January 6, 2016 at 8:10 PM
Let’s admit there is a problem. Step 1. Whilst I most certainly do not agree with everything in the article at least this is facing this …
rob
December 17, 2008 at 11:20 PM
I think you chose an interesting choice of words in your post “The solution is not and cannot be to open up the society and have a free for all as in the Western world.”
Funny that the so called “free for all” in the “western world” doesnt involve as internet perversion as muslim countries, as shown by google trends
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Chris
October 19, 2012 at 8:42 PM
Why is any of thus surprising? Must you not be human in order to be Muslim? Repression leads to desire. We are all sinners, get over it.