The Sexual Misery of the Western World

Daniel Haqiqatjou's response to this New York Times piece.

LOS ANGELES, United States — After Woodstock came campus surveys on sexual assault. After bra-burning came date rape. The Sexual revolution of the 1960s aroused enthusiasm at first, but passions have since waned. Those movements have come to look imperfect, even ugly: For one thing, they have failed to touch meaning, purpose, or fulfillment, especially the fulfillment relating to sex. Revolution doesn't mean progress.

The recent finding that 1 in 4 Western women in college are victims of sexual assault by Western men ominously mirrors the fact that 1 in 4 Western women will be victims of domestic violence at some point in their lives. These grim stats have led people in the West to realize that one of the great miseries plaguing much of the so-called Western world, and the liberal secular world more generally, is its sick relationship with women and girls. If they are not being paraded around in sleazy beauty contests at the tender age of five or being berated by sex-positive Feminists for not embracing their “inner sex Goddess,” at a minimum Western females can look forward to a life of chronic clinical depression and loneliness, if not outright domestic abuse and sexual violence. To address the latter, both Western universities and workplaces alike have taken to producing extensive guides of good conduct for college boys and male employees due to their preternatural propensity to date rape and sexually harass their female counterparts.

The Commodity of Sex

misery1Sex is a complex commodity, commercialized — in places like New York, London, Paris, or Amsterdam — by way of liberalism's hypersexualized culture, the voyeuristic pressures of social media, and the pornographic images of women (or their body parts) in the advertising-saturated West. These together create a potent environment of overexposure and desensitization, where people, like drug addicts looking for a stronger high, must increasingly resort to more extreme sexual acts and fetishes in order to generate the same arousal. Not surprisingly, this escalation has led to an epidemic of perversion and sexual abnormalities ranging from zoo- to pedo-philia, each deviance with its own group and its own social movement and dedicated “Social Justice Warriors” advocating for acceptance and celebration.

Today sex is a great paradox in many countries of the Western world: One acts as though it's all that exists, and yet it means absolutely nothing. Overindulged in a Tinder-induced stupor of casual copulation, it weighs on the mind by its very vacuousness. Although Western females are regularly accosted by the unsolicited genitalia of sexting grade school football players as well as respected Congressmen, they are encouraged to bare their own “assets” on Instagram and Snapchat, in a social media stream of simultaneously narcissistic and desperate cries for validation.

The War on Women

Women are a recurrent theme in daily discourse, because the stakes they personify — for myths of Western superiority, progress, and exclusivism — are great. In some countries, they are allowed access to the public sphere only if they renounce their wombs: To be satisfied with women living as mothers and “mere homemakers” would be to uncover the paradox that Feminists and progressives desperately need to deny: Maybe Western women can't have it all. Mothers are seen as a source of destabilization — extended maternity leaves trigger profit loss, some say — and are respected only when defined by a corporate relationship, as the Senior VP of X or Up-and-Coming Manager of Y.

These contradictions create unbearable tensions. Womanhood has no outlet, no outcome; starting a family is no longer a means for support, love, and fulfillment, but a burden to be put off for as long as possible. The sexual and psychological misery that results can descend into absurdity and hysteria. Here, too, one hopes to experience familial love, but the mechanisms for that love — marriage, child-rearing, familial stability — are prevented: Half of all children born in the West are born to single mothers, which is disturbing given that there is a direct, undeniable correlation between single-family homes and crime rates — though this might partially explain why some Western countries have the highest rates of homicide and violent crime in the world. And for few Westerners that are married, the spectre of infidelity looms large, as even adultery has been commercialized, where cheating websites like AshleyMadison.com cater to tens of millions of registered users.

In some Western lands, the war on women has the air of a theatrical farce. Western women spend over $20 billion annually on cosmetics and perfumes and another $12 billion on cosmetic surgery (while only $22 billion is needed to feed, clothe, and provide basic health care for the entire world's poor) — all this expenditure to abide by artificial standards of fashion and beauty dictated by the corporate conglomerates profiting from the Western woman's need to “be sexy.” Of course, that very need only arises due to women being deliberately socialized to obsess over every detail of their bodies such that millions of females, some as young as 11 years-old, suffer from eating disorders and other forms of Body Dysmorphic maladies.  

Unfortunately for these Western women, who are literally starving themselves for attention, Western men, in the thick of their own “Crisis of Masculinity,” don't seem to be too interested, as they've been thoroughly desensitized by endless amounts of internet porn. And when the ADHD-addled gentlemen are not masturbating, they're too busy playing video games and killing themselves: Tragically, suicide is the single biggest cause of death in men aged 20-49 in some Western countries.

Fantasy or Reality?

One result is that people fantasize about the trappings of another world: either the world peddled by popular culture and Disney films about romance and monogamous love between “soul mates,” happily ever after, or the sexually promiscuous, at times violent world of “hook ups,” no consequence, no commitment sex, more at home on the set of a pornographic film than in the realm of reality.

misery2It's a choice perfectly illustrated by the offerings of the Western media. Miley Cyrus and other former Mousketeers “gone bad” are all the rage on television as is the sexualization of young girls and “tweens,” pushed to empower themselves and “own their sexuality” by dressing and acting like pornstars, peddling the promise of their unattainable bodies and impossible sex well before puberty. Clothing is also given to extremes: Western women naively believe their wardrobes to be a function of free and independent choice, yet, despite that belief, the vast majority of garb “coincidentally”  falls within the narrow bounds of current fashion and the diktats of Versace, Chanel, and an interminable supply of “hot or not” lists Western women abide by with a fervent taqlid that would make the most fastidious Sufi murids seem delinquent.

Sex therapists are legion in the Western world, and their advice, no matter how contradictory or ludicrous, is voraciously consumed. These self-anointed gurus have a de facto monopoly on talk about the body, sex, and love. With the internet, daytime TV, and gossip magazines galore, some of their “tips” have taken monstrous forms, devolving into a kind of pornoPsychology. A simple perusal of the women's magazine covers at the typical Western grocery store: “Help your lover shop for an escort,” and more.

Sex is Everywhere

Especially in schools.

Orgasms are required as soon as puberty is within reach and a warm body is available. To be a virgin past an arbitrary age is to be an outcast. These pressures combined with the barrage of sexualized images and content in media and environment make for a dangerous mix. Incidences of prepubescent elementary school boys gang raping their female classmates are a growing phenomena in many Western cities. But young girls don't just have their male classmates to worry about. Violent sex offenders in the West, at least the ones who are caught and convicted, serve shockingly short prison sentences before being considered “rehabilitated” and let back into society. In some parts of the West, offenders who commit sex crimes against children on average serve less time in prison than offenders who commit the same crimes against adults.

And it is not only degenerates molesting children. Producers, distributors, and consumers of child pornography and child sex slavery include famous filmmakers, celebrated sandwich spokesmen, and billionaire hedge fund bankers. Even prominent Harvard Law School professors like Alan Dershowitz are committing acts of pedophilia and sex trafficking on the weekends, allegedly. Apparently the lure of innocent, virginal children is too much for the West's rich and famous. These otherworldly delights are the unspoken rewards for those who do well in the lands of sexual misery. Dreaming about such prospects, pedophilic business moguls surrender to a terrifying, surrealistic logic: The path to orgasm is through predatory domination, not love.

The West has long found comfort in exoticism, which exonerates differences. Satellite TV and the World Wide Web has a way of normalizing cultural variations and of excusing any abuses: Beyonce, Playboy, and “twerking” exempted some Easterners from considering the plight of Western women: Other than India and Zimbabwe, the rest of the top 10 countries with the highest incidence of rape in the world are Western. Despite all this soul-rending misery, Western imperialists have taken it upon themselves to export their unique brand of “sexual liberation” to the rest of the world, saving and rescuing women in “developing” nations by way of military occupation and an unending stream of NGOs ready to civilize societies who know nothing of the superior sexual values of the moral West.

What long seemed like the foreign spectacles of faraway places now feels like a clash of cultures playing out around the globe. Differences once defused by distance and a sense of isolation have become an imminent threat. People around the globe — i.e., the long time subjects of Western imperialistic pillaging and rape — are discovering, with anxiety and fear, that sex in the Western world is sick, and that its venereal disease has long infected the rest of the world.

 

Dilapidated bedroom image by darkday.

167 Responses

  1. MalikSaabSays

    There are too many people even in the west itself that are waking up to this disease. Hope is that they outrun, outnumber and outgun those who’re going after these despicable fads.

    Reply
    • M.Mahmud

      Lets hope even more the Ummah can shake off the imitation of the disbelievers. Lets hope the news spread, that men and women are more satisfied when they keep the limits.

      Reply
    • Zafar

      Muslim mass is terribly failed in honoring women in their land and out side world as well.. See what happened in Cologne, Germany on new year eve… People migrated to that country, for a better life, who were well accommodated, molested native women.
      West may have been failed in healthy sexual life, but present Muslim mass are not a role model, either….

      Reply
  2. Craigster

    Unfortunately, to categorize this as a “Western” problem is myopic. These are, without a doubt, global problems. The assertion by the East of a wholesome society categorized by traditional culture is as misplaced as the assertion by the West of a progressive society categorized by sexual liberation.

    Reply
    • Omar KN

      The label “the Western World” is not a geographical one, but cultural, especially suggesting the degree to which people and societies have turned away from the sacred traditions which once were the cornerstones of those Western societies. Yes – these problems are “global problems”, and this is because in the last 100+ years the Western mentality of individualism, nihilism, self-gratification has become and is ever more becoming global itself by different means, some of which are described in the article. Global media, suppression of divergent life-alternatives in the service of corporate profits and neo-imperialist domination. It’s time to wake up to the game.

      Allah knows best and most.

      The blessings and peace of Allah on the Prophet, his Family, and his Companions.

      /
      Omar KN

      Reply
      • Maurizio

        I beg to differ.
        You insist a bit too much on the religious aspect and fail to grasp the social aspect of the phenomenon you are discussing. The fundamental difference between the “West” and the “East” (wrong labels, by the way, as “East” leads into thinking of India and China; and “Near East” is also misleading; and “Mashriq” is a term unknown to 99% of English speakers) is that Europe and its “children nations” (N.America, S.America and Australia) derive from Graeco-Roman philosophy which has a totally different orientation from Arabic philosophy.
        If you compare Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, Archimedes, Seneca to their Arabic and Persian contemporaries you will understand.
        Having said that, you also tendoto identify “West” with the USA. Anyone living in Europe will tell you your thesis is based on a stereotype.
        Best regards,

  3. Cass

    It seems that there are very few places where women are safe from both physical and psychological attacks. We need to find a healthy middle ground between the hyper sexualisation of the West and the ultra prudish ways of some Eastern cultures. This is why I support sex education for young Muslims. We need to teach them the Islamic view on sex. We need to teach them that sex is something to be enjoyed after sex; that it is not a shameful act or even an act that can be means of liberation. We need to have open and frank conversations so that young Muslims are aware and can form healthy attitudes towards sex.

    Reply
    • Ahmad B.

      Assalamu ‘alaikum,

      Kamal Daoud is a miscreant who clearly has no respect for God’s commands and the wisdom and guidance vouchsafed to us through revelation and the prophetic Sunna. He comes close to ridiculing the Qur’an with regard to the afterlife which, if this is his real intention, would constitute an act of apostasy from the faith. (Based on a subsequent comment, I see he basically has abandoned Islam in favor of Buddhist philosophy. As such, he should not put himself forward as a Muslim addressing his co-religionists, since he does not belong to the same religion as us.)

      That said, I agree wholeheartedly with Cass that we need to steer a middle course here. And that middle course is, precisely, Islam. Current Western society with regard to gender and sexual norms is clearly no model to be followed for anyone with half a brain, but it is also true that certain aspects of Eastern culture (not Islam) are indeed overly prudish and way more conservative than the religion itself. Every virtue is a proper balance between two extremes, and if the middle is lost and extreme attitudes and behaviors take hold, everything gets messed up and you often get the phenomenon of “equal and opposite reaction.” Opposite tensions must be absorbed into a productive, meaningful, and positive medium. Current-day Saudi Arabia, for instance, strikes me, no less than the West, as a society absolutely obsessed with sex. Everything is sexual, everything about a woman is fitna, etc., etc. This has nothing to do with the types of relations between men and women that we see in the Sunna and among the Companions. Men and women had decorum, for sure, but they interacted, spoke to each other, advised each other, etc. normally.

      Some Eastern cultures try to deny sex altogether (only amplifying its ubiquitousness in the process), but current Western societies go to the opposite extreme by denying that sex is to be subjected to any restrictions or moral constraints whatsoever (other than “consent”) — which is the dangerous nonsense that the despicable Kamal Daoud is peddling. The middle way is the true Islamic way: sex within marriage is valued, celebrated, and considered an act of worship, but sex outside marriage is strongly prohibited due to the chaos which can result from sex not being properly contained within the recognized limits laid down by the Shari’a.

      So yes, Monsieur Daoud, orgasm comes with marriage, but once married, construct your love life in as ample, adventurous, and exciting a manner as you’d like. It is indeed pitiful that many Muslim men seem to have no idea how to please a woman, or even think that a “proper” woman should have sexual desire or require satisfaction. Yet, our Prophet (saas) explicitly instructed men to satisfy their wives BEFORE they take their own satisfaction. Imam al-Ghazali and others talk of female orgasm and sexual satisfaction quite openly, and even the desirability of simultaneous orgasm if possible. And yes, M. Daoud is write to mention “The Perfumed Garden” and other such love-making manuals (penned by even the most renowned of religious scholars such as Imam al-Suyuti), but he conveniently fails to mention that such works invariably begin “In the Name of God, Most Gracious and Merciful” and deal with (married) sexuality frankly and forthrightly as a wondrous gift from God, exemplified in the prophetic model and subject to the guidance and constraints of the Shari’a. These are not secular, hedonistic sex manuals like the ones we find today in the West, but manuals that give sex and sexuality their due right and place within the holistic worldview of a God-centered universe and human personality. This is the true middle path, not the traditional Christian view of sex as a “necessary evil,” which has led to the current no-holds-barred reaction and utterly shameless pandemonium we are currently witnessing in decrepit Western societies.

      Sex within the context morally and legally prescribed by God is a wondrous gift to be celebrated, encouraged, and promoted. Sex outside this context is a grave moral shortcoming and social danger that must not be normalized. We must promote a healthy culture of marriage, in both East and West, part of which entails preserving (in the East) and re-introducing (in the West) a notion of sexuality bound to proper moral limits, a proper reticence and shyness between the sexes without overflowing into extreme forms of prudery à la Saudi Arabia, and also — as Cass states — giving our Muslim youth proper, comprehensive sex education within an Islamic moral framework and, finally, promoting a culture of marrying sooner (like early 20s) rather than later, in order to minimize the frustration people feel and the related dangers of falling into forbidden relationships.

      “Khayr al-umuri awsatuha” — The best of affairs are the middle (balanced) ones.

      Wassalam,
      Ahmad B.

      Reply
      • M.Mahmud

        This comment was so boss I am literally thinking I can’t praise it’s awesomeness lest I break your back with pride.

        So I’ll make dua for you instead.

        “Khayr al-umuri awsatuha” — The best of affairs are the middle (balanced) ones.

        Indeed

  4. Safia

    Mashallah, this is the perfect response to Kamal Dawoud. You successfully inverted his sick logic. It is a shame that his article was one of the most read pieces in the NYTimes this weekend (the comments section is even more horrendous). Its a sad reality knowing that there are so many misinformed people walking around with these ideas about Islam and Muslims filled in their head. For me, this says more about the newspaper that published his pieces than it does about the author.

    Reply
      • M.Mahmud

        Get’s even more pathetic as you read on,

        ““Men in power are fascinated by people like me,” he said.”

        Keep dreaming buddy.

        This guy left but Alhamdulilah who saved his wife.

        “Daoud knows how his critics think, in part because he used to think the same way. He is an ex-Islamist, and he has a defector’s zeal. Two years into their marriage, Daoud says, his ex-wife became increasingly religious and started wearing the hijab. They divorced in 2008, after the birth of their daughter.”

        So sad and pathetic, shows how colonized their minds are they are speaking French.

        “Daoud’s campaign against Islamism has won him adoration, particularly among liberal, French-speaking Algerians, who hail him for staking out positions they share but are often too shy to express in public.”

        Dude literally admits it,

        “Daoud is no longer a practicing Muslim, and he describes himself as philosophically close to Buddhism. “

      • Minion

        This guy is better called Kamal Dayooth (literally “perfect cuckold”) . He is a cuck in every definition of the word- hard not to have utter contempt for such creatures.

      • M.Mahmud

        Minion

        I hate calling him a good name(Dawud) however even nonbelievers throughout after the advent of Rasulullah sallahulayhiwasalam had good names. The Yahud and Munafiqoon are an example of this.

        However insults do have their place. Abu Bakr RA gave a crude insult to a kaffir and some Sahaba RA like Umar RA called certain men munafiqoon.

        Since Rasulullah sallahualayhiwasalam made it clear both men were guided we need to know when it is ok to curse and insult the disbelievers and hypocrites and when it is better to refrain.

        I hope some scholars delineate this issue for us.

  5. Allahu Ah bllah bllah

    Still, westerners are not that dumb so as to expect sex in heaven, nor are they off to muslim lands on a [****moderated for language****] quest. The western world has its problems, sure, but they pale in comparison to the problems of a society ruled by the norms of a medieval ideology.

    Reply
    • Daniel Haqiqatjou

      You’re right, Westerners aren’t going to Muslim lands to sexually conquer Muslim women. They prefer boys: salon.com/2004/07/15/hersh_7/

      It’s interesting how, on the one hand, Muslims are ruled by prudish “medieval norms” but on the other hand, they are licentious and dumb enough to believe that perhaps heaven might include one of the foremost pleasures human beings enjoy on earth. How crazy!

      Reply
      • Jonaid

        Salam Alaykum.

        Firstly I did not read the original NY Times article but I don’t think it matters. I don’t disagree much with the content of this article by Daniel Haqiqatjou. However, I found the constant, needlessly repetitive mentioning of “Western” to be almost offensive. I don’t know if Mr. Haqiqatjou is a “Westerner” himself or not but it would serve Muslims well to remember that WE are the ones flocking to the West. Does that mean the West is perfect and does not have problems? Does that mean we cannot criticize it where it needs to be criticized? Of course not BUT when you come here – or are born here (as in my case) – you are a Westerner. Those of us who are living here ought to say “our culture has deteriorated to xyz.” Anyone not in the “tribe” of Islam (I’m a muslim but I don’t subscribe to any tribe or nation – my loyalty is to the Truth and to God and Islam happens to have the truth, not necessarily the truthful) would and should take offense at the tone of this article. I’m not alleging anything about Mr. Haqiqatjou so please do not caricature what follows. Judging by your tone in this article, it almost sounds as if you’re either sexually frustrated and lashing out against the culture OR you’re someone who has a deep-rooted hatred for the West overall. Again, I am NOT suggesting that is the case. God knows your intentions not me – I’m just being as honest as possible and asking you to consider how you come across.

        It would have been more appropriate in my opinion if you titled this article “The Sexual Misery in our Culture” or something to that effect. That is of course under the assumption that you are a Westerner. If, however, you’re not, than forgive me but you ought to be writing about your own region, whatever that is, and leave the issues of the West to those who are living here.

        Could you please cite your source for “Half of all children born in the West are born to single mothers.” There were several other claims you made without providing any citation or evidence for but this one in particular jumped out at me. It may well be true but I honestly find it difficult to believe that the entire “West” has 50% of its children born to single mothers. Help me out here.

        Thank you.

      • Minion

        @Jonaid
        For the claim that 50% of children are born to unwed mothers, here is:
        economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/02/mapping-unwed-motherhood/?_r=0

        crcblog.typepad.com/crcblog/births-to-unmarried-moms-increase-sharply.html

        Here, many states have it as high as 50%, although Utah seems to be a a lone holdout in all this, thanks to conservative Mormon sexuality

        Europe is doing even worse:
        swissinfo.ch/eng/europe-map_extramarital-birth-rate/36989732

        Also, Haqiqatjou uses the term “Westerner” because that is how Westerners (especially Islamophobes) define Westerness (as well as Britishness and Americaness) to be equivalent to casual sex, gay rights, feminism, atheism, and the like, despite things things pretty much only gaining popularity in the past decade or two.

      • M.Mahmud

        Muslims flock to the West because

        1) Rule of law, freedom from the intense oppression that occurs in Muslim countries

        2) Opportunity+lack of fiscal corruption at the same level found in Muslim countries.

        Some are so impressed by what Allah has given these disbelievers that they lose their religion.

        On the other hand, some of these disbelievers are so disillusioned by what they see they enter Islam.

        So Allah sifts humanity how he wills.

      • Jonaid

        Salam Alaykum.

        If you look at the statistics shown in these two articles, you notice the following:
        1) Nowhere is it 50% or even close.
        2) ALL the statistics are for “unmarried” / “unwed” women, not “single” women. There is a difference. Nowadays in the “West” – especially in Western Europe, many couples live together as if they were a married couple and raise children but they’re not married. I’m not suggesting that that is okay but I’m highlighting the major difference between what these articles are saying and the claim made that “50% of children are born to single mothers.”
        3) The rates vary with different ethnic groups. The highest is African American followed by Hispanics, then non-hispanic Whites, then Asian etc. There are social & historical reasons why the African American community has such high rates of family breakdown. The point is are you or anyone else here claiming that “Western” denotes primarily African Americans? We all know the “Western” culture is dominated – historically and presently – by Whites.

        If we are going to be honest we would not try to prove to me that the article made valid claims but citing sources which do NOT substantiate the claim at all. You’re trying to defend your fellow tribesman against another Muslim instead of defending the Truth.

        There’s no need to keep this going. That was not the purpose of my original comments. Let’s drop it now please.

        Thank you.

        Peace.

      • Minion

        Actually, some areas are far more than 50%. 50% is an average

        And fornication is fornication. I dont care if they call themselves friends with benefits or whatever, the thing is, there is no obligation for commitment on their part.

        Not sure why you are white knighting the degenerate West

      • Jonaid

        You completely disregarded everything I stated and conjured up an average of 50%. Furthermore, fornication is indeed fornication but the allegation made by Daniel was that 50% of CHILDREN ARE BORN to SINGLE women. First you cite data about “unwed” women (which is NOT synonymous with “single”) aand now you bring up fornication when that wasn’t being discussed at all.

        I believe in God Almighty and I believe He demands honesty from us, whether we speak of ourselves or non-Muslims or even the enemies. If that’s “knighting the degenerate West” I’m proud to be doing so. I’m a Westerner and I thank God I am. I have no loyalties to any Muslim tribe. Loyalty should be to the Truth no matter where that is. That is why I call myself a Muslim…because the Qur’an is no doubt the speech of God and Muhammad (PBUH) was no doubt His messenger. That does NOT mean that so called “Muslims” are my tribesman. If they behave like Muslims, then we are one. If a Westerner behaves more like a Muslim ought to behave but just don’t happen to have “Islam” they are closer to me unless I have reason to believe that they knowingly rejected Islam.

    • Asma

      Just to clarify, Medieval Christianity is the root of your idea that sex is a dirty or unholy pleasure of the body that would have no place in heaven. Islam has always been free of the shame and denial of sexual pleasure, as long as it occurs in a legal union.

      Reply
    • M.Mahmud

      Disbelievers will be in the fire forever and thus do not need to worry about sex in the next life. This is their Paradise.

      However we Muslims know Jannah is the Paradise for believers and thus we realize that true freedom is there.

      Hope that clarified things, kaffir.

      Reply
      • stier111

        Is Muslim heaven a kind youporn where all sex dreams become true?
        …Wow! And from a woman’s point of view…. What is a Muslim heaven?

      • M.Mahmud

        Is Muslim heaven a kind youporn where all sex dreams become true?
        …Wow! And from a woman’s point of view…. What is a Muslim heaven?

        I have no idea exactly what will be there, Allah mentioned a few of it’s joys in general terms. Eternity, salvation from the fire, virgin maidens, gardens and rivers and so on.

        “…Wow! And from a woman’s point of view…. What is a Muslim heaven?”
        Whatever Allah wants.

        لَا يَسْمَعُونَ حَسِيسَهَا ۖ وَهُمْ فِي مَا اشْتَهَتْ أَنفُسُهُمْ خَالِدُونَ
        They will not hear its perceptible (hissing) sound, and they are eternally (abiding) in whatever their selves craved for. (Literally: lusted for)
        Dr. Ghali

    • Ahmad B.

      Assalamu ‘alaikum Jonaid,

      I appreciate the intent behind your comments and they are insightful as usual, but I think you should have read the original article before commenting here. Daniel’s piece is a mirror-image spoof on the nonsense put out by Kamal Daoud. If you read the original piece, you will see that Daniel is following it very closely, even to the point of using many of the same overdrawn and dramatic phrases Daoud uses against Islam and Islamic cultures, but filling the content with stuff related to Western society. Daoud speaks in terms of “Islam / Eastern cultures” and “the West” and makes obnoxious sweeping generalizations about both, and Daniel is only giving him a taste of his own medicine.

      This being the case, it’s interesting that you find the actual content of Daniel’s piece — not having read Daoud’s first and realizing what he was doing — to be overall on the money, coherent, and compelling. I think this in and of itself speaks volumes about the actual state of Western society.

      Finally, while it is true that Muslims have been flocking to the geographic West over the past half century, it is no less true that that same West has enmeshed itself inextricably in Muslim affairs over the past 200 years, and is now a global and globalized reality for all, thanks to TV, internet, etc. It is also true that Western governments attempt to use various means of pressure via international bodies, etc. to enforce their own conception of sexual morality and family norms on other countries, not contenting themselves to let Muslims and others work such questions out for themselves on their own terms.

      Anyway, I think once you read the original article, you will have a different take on what Daniel has done here which, I think, is actually quite brilliant (in light of its context and purpose: otherwise, I would agree with you that our normal tone should be considerably less shrill, more concerned and less denunciatory, more a question of how “we” can improve our societies whether we be in the East or the West, and less of an absolute, black and white binary).

      Take care!

      Wassalam,
      Ahmad B.

      Reply
      • Jonaid

        Salam Alaykum.

        OK so I did read the original article albeit I must admit that I was not as attentive as I perhaps should have been. After a paragraph you realize this guy is going to say a whole lot of garbage. That being said, not everything he says is completely untrue. This guy seems to be a “sellout” (I can’t think of another word) but in the end Allah knows if he truly believes what he says. In the end it doesn’t matter if ANYTHING he says is true or not precisely because the tone of his article gives his intentions away: he seeks to primarily insult and bash Muslims and the Arab World (some sort of self-hatred as he is likely from there). The question for us, Ahmed, should be how WE respond to such propaganda. Do we pump out our own cleverly articulated mockery of a different civilization in response? I mean for God’s sake if he had attacked Kamal in this article I could at least say he’s just lashing out against this guy and it’s understandable. What we actually have is one character trying to get his 15 minutes of fame by doing what’s popular these days: bashing Islam or Muslims or something related to them. This is not new and it will continue. By responding to him in this manner (which is actually not responding to him, it’s just advertising him to muslims who probably never heard of him and then advertising yourself with a clever but useless – and potentially harmful – piece of your own) you’ve just thrown our more material which can potentially be used to attack Muslims. I took offense at the tone of this article by Daniel because he is a Muslim and I am a Westerner. I would NOT have taken offense if some nutcase who I expect BS & hate from said something about the West or Islam or anything else I care about for that matter. Any Westerner reading this article will not say “oh well he’s just being far, the other guy was nasty too.” No they’ll think “Muslims are haters – they can’t handle the truth and lash out against our free societies…” Note if an Arab responded with an article like Daniel’s for nationalistic reasons, THAT would be excusable (not advisable in my opinion) but it would be excusable.

        I hope it’s clear where I’m coming from. Fix your own problems first, then respond with factual (and non-offensive) material when necessary so as to make the truth clear. These two articles were just a display of online tribal warfare. Let’s not pretend it has anything to do with Islam.

      • Jonaid

        ” mirror-image spoof on the nonsense put out by Kamal Daoud”

        You’re exactly right and I knew that much before reading the article. What I was suggesting to you was another of asking “who’s the adult here?” It’s our religion and the Truth that’s at stake in such “rebuttals.” How is responding with a “mirror-image spoof” attacking the other civilization in any way helping Islam? It’s going to do the opposite, particularly since Daniel’s article is full of allegations without any evidence. We’re not allowed to lie or mislead or caricature anyone, even if they do that to you. And you say I’m the one who needs to relax?

      • Ahmad B.

        Salam Jonaid,

        Your points are well taken. That Daniel’s article caricatures sexuality in the West, I’ll grant, and I’ll also grant that the probity of responding to Daoud in this way can be questioned. I don’t think it’s fair, however, to accuse the author of lying or being intentionally misleading. Statistics on out-of-wedlock births, for example, are not hard to come by, and in some Western countries it really is 50%, shocking as that may seem.

        In any case, I salute your stated commitment to presenting the truth, defending Islam, and calling all to that truth with “wisdom, beautiful preaching, and goodly argument” as Allah commands us in Surat al-Nahl.

        I take it you have just come back from ‘umra or something. I pray that was a fulfilling and spiritually salubrious experience.

        Peace,
        Ahmad B.

      • Jonaid

        It was Umrah and thank you for your well wishes.

        You said: “I don’t think it’s fair, however, to accuse the author of lying or being intentionally misleading.”

        I wasn’t referring to Daniel’s article or him when I said that. That was for Kamal’s article. I assumed that not just based on the content or even the tone of either article but the context in which they were written. It’s almost impossible for someone like Kamal to write an article like the one he did in a Western media outlet (I believe it was in France) which is readily seeking anti-Islamic material. Add to that his exaggerations, his tone and lies (I’m not in the position to judge what exactly he said is true or not – because I have not been to the Arab World save Saudi Arabia – but I’m comfortable assuming he’s exaggerated much and blew it way out of proportion). Daniel, I believe, was doing what I believe you said: making a clever rebuttal to Kamal’s article and trying to dismiss him as frivolous. I don’t know his intentions nor would I accuse him in this context of lying or deliberately misleading readers and if I gave that impression I do apologize. My main criticism was there are a lot of “facts” reported which are not substantiated in any way. Add to that the general tone and it can very easily come across as propaganda against the West. I’m sure this site gets a lot of non-Muslim western visitors and when things get personal in any way, objectivity goes out the window.

        God knows best.

        Peace.

  6. Amel

    As-salamu Alaykum,
    This is a well-written rebuttal to the original article. I am glad that MuslimMatters has been publishing a number of rebuttals to the ridiculous articles that have been appearing in major newspapers lately; however, I would also encourage the writers to submit these rebuttals to the newspapers themselves so that they can reach the proper audience.

    Reply
  7. ANMB

    I am reminded of, and wonder if Daniel Haqiqatjou has read, Dr. E. Michael Jones book “Libido Dominandi”? It is quite insightful, for those who want a historical perspective:

    Sexual “Liberation” & Political Control – Libido Dominandi
    youtube.com/watch?v=FwhFLdSqqv0

    Reply
    • Jonaid

      Muslims need to start focusing on their issues and solving them instead of finding people to blame or attack. What do you expect from the NY Times? Are you surprised that in this day and age – with the current political climate and the intense anti-Islam propaganda that is pumped out all the time – that someone with an Islamic name is going around saying nonsensical & disingenuous statements about Islam and Muslims? I might end up reading this article now whereas I never heard of this character before I read the comments for this article. This is how idiotic Muslims made a celebrity out of an unknown and unsophisticated sellout like Salman Rushdie. This is how they made a joke of themselves in the world when the cartoons which no one heard of or seen were published. Muslims are their own enemies these days. The Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) NEVER once blamed his enemies from his problems even though they were causing all the trouble.

      I hope we can outgrow our current state. May God guide us all.

      Peace.

      Reply
      • Ahmad B.

        Salam Jonaid,

        Relax, brother. I agree with everything you’ve said here, but do read the original article.

        Yours,
        Ahmad B.

      • M.Mahmud

        Jonaid I actually agree with you. I don’t know about Rasulullah sallahualayhiwasalam not blaming the kuffar but there is a general idea I have found that a Muslim is supposed to recognize what the disbelievers are doing and turn his face to Allah aza wa jal, not obsess over it as this is weakness and not strength.

        Some Muslims these days seem to give the kuffar and munafiqoon some ridiculous power that they don’t have. It’s a way of lessening our own responsibility. It’s like Jewish apocalyptics who had this attitude, “the world is so corrupt only direct divine intervention can save it.”

      • Jonaid

        This is not related at all to this article – I just have to make a correction to something I said earlier.

        Not trying to upset anyone or be controversial but I read this comment of mine again and realized I was tougher on Salman Rushdie than I should have been considering what I actually believe about him. I’ve heard him speak on several occasions, including Real TIme with Bill Maher (which I follow almost religiously…old habit) I have to say he’s much more honest and fair in his criticism than real sellouts like Ayaan Hirsi Ali. He does not actively go around Islam-bashing and he doesn’t outright fabricate lies to mislead people.

        I’m not saying he’s a good guy or a bad guy. On the face of it, he’s obviously an apostate but then I was one too and God guided me to Islam. I don’t know what’s in his heart – just thought I should correct what I said in the comment above.

        Apologies for the interjection with unrelated material.

      • Ahmad B.

        Salam Jonaid,

        Rushdie’s crime is not that he was a sellout, but that he desecrated the sanctity of the Noble Messenger (saas) in the crudest, most vulgar, and most despicable fashion imaginable. His crime is many times worse than anything Ayaan Hirsi Ali has ever said, as spiteful and vindictive as she is. There is absolutely no doubt — on any version of the Shari’a in any madhhab — that he is guilty of a capital offense of the first order. Khomeini was only wrong in mandating that the sentence be carried out by any average Muslim and in a non-Muslim territory, rather than by a properly constituted authority under Islamic jurisdiction.

        Wassalam,
        Ahmad B.

      • Jonaid

        Salam Alaykum,

        I have a couple of questions on that. First, I don’t recall what exactly he said in The Satanic Verses but if I’m not mistaken he did at least change the name (to “Mahound” or something). I’m not claiming that he therefore didn’t violate the sanctity of the Prophet but surely there must be a difference in that and someone who outright says that the Prophet was a “pervert” and a “pedophile,” as she does. Or not?

        More importantly perhaps is the question: how can you judge & condemn a man by Islamic law when he was not a citizen of any Muslim country? He was living in the UK when he wrote that book and his nation of birth is India.

      • Jonaid

        I might have misunderstood your last sentence there. Perhaps you were saying that Khomeini (and indeed any Muslim authority) had no right to issue the fatwa precisely because they had no jurisdiction?

      • Jonaid

        OK this is strange: I have a comment awaiting moderation right before the one that just popped up asking you about the jurisdiction issue…in case you get confused.

      • Ahmad B.

        Salam Jonaid,

        Your comment must have been a long one and therefore has been retained for moderation. That’s what happened with my long comment about female circumcision, but I didn’t know so I kept submitting it and it ended u poo posting twice.

        What I meant was that Khomeini had no jurisdiction in the West and should not have licensed everyday Muslims in the West to carry out the sentence against Rushdie. Had been in a country under Muslim jurisdiction, he would have to stand trial there and face the consequences.

        Wassalam,
        Ahmad B.

      • Jonaid

        They posted it above (the one that starts with Salam Alaykum).

        Thanks for the reply. I definitely agree with Khomeini not having any right to issue the fatwa.

      • M.Mahmud

        Not all apostates are the same. In any case, the deeds of every kaffir, Jew Christian, pagan, agnostic, atheist and so on are all nullified and they will never ever be forgiven and neither will apostates or hypocrites as long as they die as disbelievers.

        On the other hand, every Muslim, sooner or later will enter Paradise.

        Now while we may distinguish disbelievers in that some might have “principles” like Salman Rushdi as opposed to Hirsi Ali and others have a sense of “humanity” Peter Tatchell/Glen Greenwald as opposed to Douglas Murray(Zionist gaytheist), we still affirm they are in the same group in the next life regardless of rank.

        The aformentioned individuals are alive and have a chance to repent and I mean to only demonstrate that while we understand they are different in deeds, their paths lead to one final and horrific destination. No disbeliever is rightious. Let us not waste an excess time in grading and differentiating those who are astray.

        May Allah save us.

  8. Jonaid

    I googled the NY Times articles and just realized why you titled it “The Sexual Misery of the Western World.” Really? He says “Arab World” and you attack back with “Western World.” We – Muslims – need to grow back up. There is a reason why our condition is the way it is. Who made it this way? Iblis? Bush? Allah alone has all the control. He made it this way and it’s no surprise to any honest observer. I recently returned from Saudi Arabia and I was shocked by the outright racism that is rampant in that culture. God forgive me but I couldn’t help but think “who on Earth would come to this burnt desert had God Almighty not decided to honor Abraham and Muhammad (Peace be upon them) and choosing Mecca & Medina as the holy cities for all believers to visit”? I did not say it out of any ill-intent towards the religion but out of disgust that emanated from seeing the arrogance prevalent in that society. We – if “we” refers to believers – should be show our honesty by attacking and fixing our own houses first. The West is FAR, FAR, better in almost every sense possible than the “Arab World” today. Every nation has its time and our culture seems to be deteriorating. The West too will one day decline and perhaps – Insha’Allah – the “Arab World” will once again retain its glory. Until then, work on it and don’t play childish games like “yo momma.” It doesn’t prove you’re a true Muslim, it just proves Muslims have insecurities resulting from their own lack of true Iman.

    My apologies if I sound too strident. I believe the best way to fix a problem is to be honest and to take responsibility.

    God knows best.

    Reply
    • Ahmad B.

      Br. Jonaid,

      Did you actually read Daoud’s article or just Google the title and launch out on a tirade? The title may say “Arab world,” but all the critiques he makes are of practices, movements, etc., directly tied to Islam and the Islamic tradition. His critique of the “Arab world” could just as easily go for South Asia and many other Muslim societies as well. Furthermore, the trends that Daniel highlights are indeed shared by all societies throughout the Western (in a cultural sense) world, and practically only by these societies (at least on such a large social scale), and so speaking of “Western” sexual norms and practices is, I think, quite accurate here.

      Again, I say this while agreeing with you fully that our problems are ours to solve — on the basis of a true understanding and practice of Islam, which actual Muslim societies of course fall short of to some degree or another. So we should critique “our” Muslims societies on the basis of Islam and also “our” Western societies (esp. for those of us in and part of the West) on the very same basis as well.

      Cheers,
      Ahmad B.

      Reply
    • Daniel Haqiqatjou

      Jonaid, for someone who hasn’t read the original article, you sure know how to talk.

      Central to Daoud’s article was criticizing Islam itself, not just bad Muslim social practices that need to be addressed. He mocks and derides Quranic conceptions of paradise, gender separation, the veil/hijab, the value of chastity and virginity, and so on. As he states in his first paragraph, Muslims need reform that will bring them into conformity with modernity, presumably the modernity the West — as opposed to the Orient Daoud is caricaturing — enjoys. So, not only is it valid, it is necessary to critique that modernity the Muslim world is being called to, so that all — Western, Eastern, non-Muslim, and Muslim — can see that the Emperor has no clothes.

      Reply
      • Jonaid

        Salam Alaykum. (and W Salam to Ahmed…I just realized I did not respond to your salam in the last message)

        I did actually read the article these comments are not in chronological order. I did not read it before my initial three comments but I read it afterwards and responded to Ahmed above. Nothing I said was meant to be a personal attack against you (I know I can come across that ways sometimes but I didn’t mean to attack you…if I did I would make it plain).

        As for Kamal, I’m not defending him nor have I. I don’t deny he’s done what you say he’s done and as I said in my first comment, I agree with the overall content / message of your own article. I strongly disagree with HOW you chose to rebut for reasons I’ve already outlined. It’s not personal and it need not go any further. Let’s drop it here. God-willing something good will come out of all this.

        Peace.

      • Ahmad B.

        [Dear moderator: I just resubmitted this comment — don’t know why it wasn’t originally approved — but in the wrong place. I am resubmitting here (a third time — sorry!) in the correct place. It should appear in the list of responses to Daniel’s comment in the blue box, after which ensued a discussion between Sean, Jonaid, and others on FGM and related practices. Please delete this note when posting. Jazakumullahu khayran.]

        Dear Sean and others,

        So I have also done some research on female circumcision in Indonesia. Wikipedia (how’s that for scholarly credentials?) defines “female circumcision” as removal of (part or all of) the clitoral HOOD (NOT the clitoris itself) and defines “female genital mutilation” (FGM) separately as “clitoridectomy (removal of the clitoris itself) or infibulation.” The 90% statistic for Indonesia seems to be accurate, but this statistic is for female circumcision, not FGM. Until recently, the procedure included snipping a small part of the clitoral hood, whereas now it has been reduced mostly to a more symbolic pricking. More severe procedures like FGM (including clitoridectomy and infibulation) are not what’s being counted in this statistic. It is FGM (as opposed to female circumcision) which seems to be prevalent mostly in east and northeast Africa as a cultural tradition engaged in by Muslims, Christians, animists, and even Ethiopian Jews.

        There is some hadith evidence suggesting the preferability of circumcision (not FGM), but scholars differ over the reliability of different reports and there is a difference of opinion on the status of the practice from one legal school to another. The Shafi‘i school seems to recommend it the most strongly, which would explain why the Indonesian ‘ulama, as well as the general populace, seem to favor the practice in such high numbers (Indonesia being basically entirely of the Shafi‘i rite). They simultaneously forbid FGM, however, and many statements by Islamic scholars of various schools are available condemning FGM as a forbidden and un-Islamic practice. Ali Gomaa as Grand Mufti of Egypt declared a blanket prohibition on ALL forms of female genital cutting (including circumcision) in 2007. This is also not surprising, I think, since Egypt is one of those countries where more severe forms of FGM—those forbidden by Islam and condemned by Muslim scholars—appear to be quite common. Given that context, he apparently found it wiser to ban everything in order to avoid any ambiguity in an environment ripe with FGM. Since FGM is not at issue in Indonesia, however, the scholars there apparently feel there is no harm in recommending circumcision, since it is not likely to leak over into FGM.

        As I have mentioned in a post to a previous message, cutting of the clitoral hood (or part of it) would seem, from a purely anatomical perspective, to be equivalent to male circumcision, where the foreskin alone, and no part of the male organ itself, is removed. It makes sense that these procedures would be referred to by the same term and that euphemisms referring to sexual intercourse as “the meeting of the two circumcised parts” (التقاء المختونين) would also use the same term (مختون) for the male and the female. As Sean rightly suggests, actual FGM (e.g., clitoridectomy) would be closer to actually chopping off the glans, which no one would seriously suggest as a religiously sanctioned (or even sane) practice.

        As I also mentioned in that other post, I believe that if there is ANY ambiguity about (very limited forms of) female circumcision leaking over into actual FGM, then it would be much better to prohibit the practice altogether, as Ali Gomaa has tried to do. However, in the absence of any fear of FGM (by dint of being a widespread cultural practice as in, e.g., east Africa), I do not see, from a purely objective perspective, why female circumcision (affecting only the clitoral HOOD) should be considered any more objectionable than male circumcision. Mind you, some hyper-liberal Western activists like to get all up in arms about male circumcision as well, referring to it as “MGM” (male genital mutilation) and other hyperbolic appelations, which most of us (Muslims, as well as Jews, as well as the majority of American males) would, I think, find ridiculous and dramatically exaggerated. If you ask probably anyone from a community or country where male circumcision is the norm, they will probably tell you that it is cleaner and looks better and way preferable to the alternative, and that they are disgusted by the thought or sight of an uncircumcised penis. I can imagine that in Indonesia and other places where female circumcision (not FGM) is the norm, people would probably have very much the same reaction, which is entirely natural and to be expected. The fact that people in the West (and many Muslim countries as well) have no cultural familiarity with female circumcision is bound to produce the expected reaction of disgust and outrage, especially since they would simply confound this (essentially harmless) practice with the very real—and very tragic—consequences of actual FGM that we see too often in too many countries (esp. in Africa).

        But I think that if we’re going to have a mature conversation about this, we need to all be clear that, to whatever extent some Muslim scholars or schools of thought consider / have considered female circumcision to be preferable or recommended, they are talking specifically about circumcision only, affecting only the clitoral hood, and not FGM (clitoridectomy or infibulation). They are clear that the girl must not be harmed, and that any procedure that leads to mutilation or the excision of genital organs, etc., is forbidden. This will, no doubt, still not satisfy those intent on painting Islam and its practitioners in the worst possible light, but I believe an objective mind should nevertheless be able to recognize the basic equivalence between male and female circumcision, and not automatically conflate this latter with the (regrettably all too common) forms of female genital mutilation we hear about all too often in certain countries and regions of the world.

        Ahmad B.

  9. Olivia

    I wonder how much rape and sexual assault is actually reported in the eastern world. I wonder if better statistics are really just due to cultural pressure, shame and bunk law enforcement making silence a better option than reporting sexual violence.

    Reply
    • M.Mahmud

      I wonder how much rape is avoided due to women taking far more precautions than they do in the West.

      That being said, no doubt about it, oppression among the Ummah is the first issue to be tackled, it is even a greater matter than poverty.

      Reply
      • Dalia

        Mahmoud, there is no precaution that a woman can take to avoid rape. And, no, the number of rapes is not lower in Muslim countries.

      • M.Mahmud

        Dalia, your first sentence is just flat out untrue.

        As for your second, you have not provided a shred of evidence. It probably IS lower due to the separation of men and women and the fact that women are usually in the homes as compared to the West.

      • Cass

        I agree with Dalia. Anyway, Islamically, women are not obliged to stay at home. If you look at early Islamic history you’ll see examples of many women who were very active members of society. Rape cannot be prevented even by fully covering up or never going out of ones home. People have been raped in their own homes. People who wear the niqab are sexually harassed. Remember the story of the lady who was raped on her way to the mosque during the time of Prophet Mohamed (saw).Our prophet proclaimed her innocence and did not even say a word to admonish her. Presumably this woman was covered up and had the prophet thought that she was to be blamed because she was out and about, wouldn’t he have said something to her? Extreme segregation is also not good and, again, if you study Islamic history you’ll see that this was not something that was practiced even during the time of our Mohamed(saw). Back then women and men interacted in a polite and respectful manner.

      • M.Mahmud

        The Messenger of Allah S had to have been informed that she wqs really raped. There is no shred of evidence suggesting that when someone claims another raped him or her, we assume the alleged rapist to be an actual rapist. The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused. To take one incident from the seerah and falsely analogize it to modern day rape cases where judges are not informed by Allah of whether the alleged rapist is guilty or innocent is the height of absurdity.

        Women do not have any special right to be assumed correct when they claim a certain man is a rapist until the provide actual proof.

    • Cass

      This is an interesting point. I’m pretty sure that rape and sexual assault rates are increasing in the East and that’s all being chalked up to the Westernization of their cultures but it could very well be that more people are willing to report rape than before. Of course there people are still very hesitant and there is a good chance that they’ll be blamed and treated as an outcast. The East has problems too and they need to be addressed as well. It’s the ‘West’s” habit of pretending that they have it all figured out when criticizing other cultures that really peeves me. I mean they could point out bad aspects of other cultures without implying (or as in some cases explicitly stating) that adopting the Western way will cure all their problems.

      Reply
      • MMahmud

        It is a habit of the West to allege more rapes happen in Muslim countries “it must be so when you realize Muslim women just dont report it”

        I have yet to see a shred of evidence rape some how matches or exceeds the rate in which it occurs in the West. In fact, getting rape statistics is hard anyways because there are different levels of sexual abuse and sexual assault and the indisputable fact that some women do indeed falsely accuse others of rape and the fact that for a rape to actually have been proven to occur, the defendent must be proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

        So we have the challenge of defining rape, assessing the number of women who report it and then going further and assessing the number of times it goes to trial and is proven definitively.

    • MMahmud

      Wow. What a savage and barbaric institution indeed. These backward people need to be civilized tsk tsk.

      Reply
  10. Bobby

    The evils of Islamic rapist culture and racist hatred of ‘kuffar’ summarised in this article. Thanks for showing the true racist nature of Islam!

    Reply
    • Mojo

      Well said Bobby.
      Islamic perverts are running wild in Europe now the gates are open.
      The Prophet had eleven wives, some sex slaves and married a child of six years old.
      They call the Prophet the best example, speaks volumes.

      Reply
    • M.Mahmud

      The evils of your racist Western rape culture have been proven quite clearly in this article. Thanks for admitting defeat Bobby.

      Reply
      • Dalia

        I don’t feel this article has proved anything. Rape culture is a global problem, not a “Western” one. Ignoring this means ignoring the very real suffering of women, including those in Muslim countries.

        Citing “Western” statistics but leaving out all statistics, studies, documentaries, and evaluations of rape issues in the “East” does not bode well for a well thought-out, honest argument. This article is no different from all the West-bashing I keep hearing and reading day in day out from people who have never actually lived there and just repeat what they’ve been told by religious authorities, the media and so on. If you believe that rape culture is a direct result of women’s freedom or the fact that people don’t cover up all the time, then you are sadly very ignorant of the problem and it would be good to educate yourself instead of further spreading dangerous misconceptions.

        Oh – and using women’s suffering and women’s bodies in order to score points when it is clear that you don’t really care that much about us at all comes across as disingenuous.

  11. Mojo

    Just opened my newspaper to read, thirteen Muslim men are convicted of raping and pimping a thirteen year old girl (Christian of course). This is an on going problem in my country (U K) and the instigators are always Muslim. Our prisons have a high percentage of Muslim residents.

    Reply
    • M.Mahmud

      It is so sad they decided to follow the savage and barbaric rapist ways of the West instead of the pure and noble values of Islam.

      Reply
      • Dalia

        The problem is that those pure and noble values can’t be found anywhere. So it doesn’t make sense to compare “Western ways” to “Islamic values”.

        If you want to approach this topic honestly, you should compare the reality in “Western” countries with the reality in “Islamic” countries, Or “Western ideals” to “Islamic ideals”.

  12. mojo

    How weak is your religion when the followers are so cheaply led astray.
    Just looked up some stats: 1 in 20 of uk population are Muslim.
    1 in 7 uk prison population are Muslim.
    Lets face it most people who call themselves Muslim do so because they cannot leave,
    its called being apostate and you know what happens then.

    Reply
  13. Sean

    Put “sex” in the title of a Muslim Matters article and the commenters come running. Wow.

    Is anyone in the West forcing Muslims or other religious people to have sexual relations counter to their beliefs? No? Then you should practice your own sexual mores and stop complaining about everyone else.

    Once you start concerning yourself with everyone else, you start looking like Sayyid Qutb, who was permanently traumatized by watching a church square dance in Greeley, Colorado. Qutb also hated boxing, football, jazz music and the fact that people liked to water their lawns in the beautiful American southwest.

    Qutb went home to Egypt and wrote:
    “The white man in Europe or America is our number-one enemy. . . . We are endowing our children with amazement and respect for the master who tramples our honor and enslaves us. Let us instead plant the seeds of hatred, disgust, and revenge in the souls of these children.”

    At least he went home to Egypt and wrote about his disdain there, rather than living here and doing it.

    Reply
    • M.Mahmud

      We will call upon Allah for our guidance and yours and we will call all towards Allah and towards Islam even though you may hate it!!!

      Reply
      • Ahmad B.

        Dear Sean and others,

        [Not sure why this comment has not been approved while others have been.]

        So I have also done some research on female circumcision in Indonesia. Wikipedia (how’s that for scholarly credentials?) defines “female circumcision” as removal of (part or all of) the clitoral HOOD (NOT the clitoris itself) and defines “female genital mutilation” (FGM) separately as “clitoridectomy (removal of the clitoris itself) or infibulation.” The 90% statistic for Indonesia seems to be accurate, but this statistic is for female circumcision, not FGM. Until recently, the procedure included snipping a small part of the clitoral hood, whereas now it has been reduced mostly to a more symbolic pricking. More severe procedures like FGM (including clitoridectomy and infibulation) are not what’s being counted in this statistic. It is FGM (as opposed to female circumcision) which seems to be prevalent mostly in east and northeast Africa as a cultural tradition engaged in by Muslims, Christians, animists, and even Ethiopian Jews.

        There is some hadith evidence suggesting the preferability of circumcision (not FGM), but scholars differ over the reliability of different reports and there is a difference of opinion on the status of the practice from one legal school to another. The Shafi‘i school seems to recommend it the most strongly, which would explain why the Indonesian ‘ulama, as well as the general populace, seem to favor the practice in such high numbers (Indonesia being basically entirely of the Shafi‘i rite). They simultaneously forbid FGM, however, and many statements by Islamic scholars of various schools are available condemning FGM as a forbidden and un-Islamic practice. Ali Gomaa as Grand Mufti of Egypt declared a blanket prohibition on ALL forms of female genital cutting (including circumcision) in 2007. This is also not surprising, I think, since Egypt is one of those countries where more severe forms of FGM—those forbidden by Islam and condemned by Muslim scholars—appear to be quite common. Given that context, he apparently found it wiser to ban everything in order to avoid any ambiguity in an environment ripe with FGM. Since FGM is not at issue in Indonesia, however, the scholars there apparently feel there is no harm in recommending circumcision, since it is not likely to leak over into FGM.

        As I have mentioned in a post to a previous message, cutting of the clitoral hood (or part of it) would seem, from a purely anatomical perspective, to be equivalent to male circumcision, where the foreskin alone, and no part of the male organ itself, is removed. It makes sense that these procedures would be referred to by the same term and that euphemisms referring to sexual intercourse as “the meeting of the two circumcised parts” (التقاء المختونين) would also use the same term (مختون) for the male and the female. As Sean rightly suggests, actual FGM (e.g., clitoridectomy) would be closer to actually chopping off the glans, which no one would seriously suggest as a religiously sanctioned (or even sane) practice.

        As I also mentioned in that other post, I believe that if there is ANY ambiguity about (very limited forms of) female circumcision leaking over into actual FGM, then it would be much better to prohibit the practice altogether, as Ali Gomaa has tried to do. However, in the absence of any fear of FGM (by dint of being a widespread cultural practice as in, e.g., east Africa), I do not see, from a purely objective perspective, why female circumcision (affecting only the clitoral HOOD) should be considered any more objectionable than male circumcision. Mind you, some hyper-liberal Western activists like to get all up in arms about male circumcision as well, referring to it as “MGM” (male genital mutilation) and other hyperbolic appelations, which most of us (Muslims, as well as Jews, as well as the majority of American males) would, I think, find ridiculous and dramatically exaggerated. If you ask probably anyone from a community or country where male circumcision is the norm, they will probably tell you that it is cleaner and looks better and way preferable to the alternative, and that they are disgusted by the thought or sight of an uncircumcised penis. I can imagine that in Indonesia and other places where female circumcision (not FGM) is the norm, people would probably have very much the same reaction, which is entirely natural and to be expected. The fact that people in the West (and many Muslim countries as well) have no cultural familiarity with female circumcision is bound to produce the expected reaction of disgust and outrage, especially since they would simply confound this (essentially harmless) practice with the very real—and very tragic—consequences of actual FGM that we see too often in too many countries (esp. in Africa).

        But I think that if we’re going to have a mature conversation about this, we need to all be clear that, to whatever extent some Muslim scholars or schools of thought consider / have considered female circumcision to be preferable or recommended, they are talking specifically about circumcision only, affecting only the clitoral hood, and not FGM (clitoridectomy or infibulation). They are clear that the girl must not be harmed, and that any procedure that leads to mutilation or the excision of genital organs, etc., is forbidden. This will, no doubt, still not satisfy those intent on painting Islam and its practitioners in the worst possible light, but I believe an objective mind should nevertheless be able to recognize the basic equivalence between male and female circumcision, and not automatically conflate this latter with the (regrettably all too common) forms of female genital mutilation we hear about all too often in certain countries and regions of the world.

        Ahmad B.

    • Daniel Haqiqatjou

      First of all, it was Kamel Dauod who complained about the sexual mores of the Muslim and Arab world in the NYT, to the cheering and full-throated agreement of a Western audience who apparently hasn’t stopped being obsessed with Muslim sexuality since the first crusaders centuries ago wrote about harems and bath houses.

      So, if this piece bothers you, just remember that no one is forcing you to have sexual relations counter to your beliefs, so stop complaining. And besides, I’m a Westerner too, born and raised, so why can’t I raise attention about the myriad vices, diseases, and atrocities plaguing my land and my people?

      Btw, is anyone in the West forcing Muslims to have sex counter to their beliefs? Are you serious? Putting military occupation aside, putting Western imperialism and economic and cultural hegemony aside, there is still the Western so-called “human rights,” “women’s rights,” “gay rights” regime of a thousand NGOs telling Muslim societies exactly how to have sex, exactly what kinds of sex to approve of and facilitate, and so forth, at the risk of economic sanctions, if not invasion.

      Reply
      • Sean

        I don’t think most Westerners spend their time contemplating Muslim sexual practices. Muslims in Muslim majority countries still freely practice forced marriage, child marriage, polygamy, first-cousin marriage, purdah, FGM, swara and anything else they want to do, and very little seems to be changing. The West just shrugs and says “Meh. Islam. What do you expect?”

        Qutb was traumatized by square dancing, but he was perfectly comfortable living in a country with a 90% infubulation rate and girls dying by the day of infection and blood loss. Don’t talk to me about “atrocities” in the West.

        As for whether you are a Westerner? You may live here, but you are no more a Westerner because you live in the West than I would be a Muslim because I lived in Islamabad. Being a Westerner has to do with a cultural state of mind, not where you actually live. When you joined Islam, you rejected the West, as was your right.

        I would love to know how NGOs are forcing gay sex on Islamic societies. Give me a concrete example of this please.

        Did you know that American troops in Afghanistan were expressly ordered NOT to stop Afghan officials from having sex with boys, an indigenous practice common in 99.8% Muslim Afghanistan? Two US soldiers were actually disciplined by the military for stopping a rapist who was abusing a boy. The soldiers had been told it was part of the culture there. If the US is forcing gay sex on Muslims, then why does the US military have to discipline soldiers for trying to prevent gay sex?

      • Minion

        All the things you have mention (eg FGM, etc) have nothing to do with Islam. And yes, the West is promoting fag rights and other forms of degeneracy onto Muslim countries

        And I am not sure why you are mentioning Qutb here. He barely had much impact outside of Egypt. I doubt most Western Muslims know know much about him

      • Sean

        Minion,

        FGM, which includes any cutting of the female genitals, is directly recommended in Islamic scriptures. That is why 90% of Indonesian women and girls undergo the procedure which was completely unknown to their culture before the importation of Islam.

        Abu Hurayrah said: I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and plucking the armpit hairs.” Bukhari

        Qutb is one of the most influential Muslim ideologues of the second half of the twentieth century. I know of him because numerous books about Islam mention him and his work, “Milestones”. For instance, “Chasing a Mirage” by Tarek Fatah discusses Qutb.

      • M.Mahmud

        Sean-since you worship Satan, you falsely insist that the LITE circumcision done to females(removal of the clitoral hood) by some Muslims is FGM. But it is not, it is FGC just like male circumcision is not mutilation but circumcision.

        In fact it has been even used as a form of sexual therapy.

        psmag.com/health-and-behavior/female-circumcision-sexual-therapy-past-future-plastic-surgery-73229

        As for forced marriages, these are not Islamic and child and cousin marriages are not haram but then again, not too long ago the age of consent in Delaware was seven and in most other states 10-12. Your ever changing “morality”
        is a total myth. We get ours from above, you get yours from Satan. There is no way your criticism can then be valid.

        As for boys getting raped, yes those criminals are raping our boys and corrupting them but the punishments in Shari’ah for this rape is death.

        So we are as against that as we can be. That we are currently not powerful enough to relieve the oppressed among us does not mean we are any less eager.

        On the other hand, the Satan worshiping West doesn’t have a static morality-your “morality” is really just your empty desires and nothing more.

      • Inqiyaad

        Sean,

        Christians from the Christian majority nation of Ethiopia practice Infubulation. So clearly, it is a cultural practice that is not condoned by Islamic scriptures. Since it is a cultural practice, now, can we expect the Westerners to stand back? Circumcision has limits prescribed within Islam. In short, anything that deforms aesthetics or function is out of bounds.

        Also, does ‘any’ cutting of the female genitals automatically equal FGM? What about labioplasty? Certified doctors perform it and it is increasingly popular in the western world!

      • Jonaid

        Sean,

        Could you cite your source for the claim that 90% of Indonesian women undergo FGM? This was a real shocker to me. I’ve heard that it occurs in some African countries (and Africa is predominantly Muslim & Christian) with tiny fragments in Egypt and some other muslim countries. It is certainly NOT an Islamic phenomenon. It has no real authentic religious source but as you can imagine, any culture or people who insist on practicing it will inevitably find some pseudo religious justification for it (particularly in the traditional cultures where the language of religion is essential). In any case, kindly advise where you found that 90% figure. I trust it is a reputable and reliable source?

        Thank you.

      • Sean

        Jonaid,

        Here is where that stat came from: stopfgmmideast.org/countries/
        “For Southeast Asia many studies, some of them quite large, show that FGM is practiced by more than 90% of the Muslim population in Indonesia and Malaysia. It is also certain that the practice exists in South Thailand, Singapore,Brunei and in Sri Lanka among the Malay community.”

        This number is high, I think. But it is up there above 70%.

        The procedure is claimed to be a “tiny cut”, but everything is tiny on a baby or little girl. There are reports that significant numbers of “circumcisions” in Indonesia are clitoral excisions, the sexual equivalent of removing a man’s private member.

        The Indonesian Ulema Council fought and overturned an attempt to ban FGM in Indonesia in 2008, declaring it “sunnah”.

        FGM is an Islamic phenomenon that only exists in Islamic communities or non-Muslims who live in close proximity to them, such as the Copts, Ethiopian Christians and a few other groups or tribes. Because African practices such as “dry sex” are sometimes listed as a form of FGM, it can get very murky to hash out statistics.

      • Sean

        Inqiyaad,

        Labiaplasty is an operation performed on a consenting adult female. That’s fine with me. As a matter of fact, if an adult consenting woman consents willingly to FGM, I am fine with that too. I know a Muslim woman who claims to have made that choice. I think she is incredibly stupid, but it is her choice if she wants to have her own genitals cut off.

      • Jonaid

        Sean,

        I was expecting something serious and reliable. This report mentions “studies” conducted by single individuals, including a graduate student. The 90% figure for Indonesia is alleged without any source.

        Try this instead:

        who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

        That’s the World Health Organization, BTW. No mention of Indonesia there. It confirms what I was expecting: it is predominantly an African problem and the regions where it’s most severe (infibulation) include predominantly Christian countries like Ethiopia.

      • Jonaid

        “Though no religious scripts prescribe the practice, practitioners often believe the practice has religious support.”

        From the WHO cite I mentioned above.

        BTW just as a side note for people with common sense: it is reported that approximately 125 million women world-wide – overwhelmingly in Africa and some parts of Mid East – are affected by FGM. Now 90% of Indonesia’s women would equal roughly 115 million women. Do you see something wrong here? If you don’t get a calculator.

      • Ahmad B.

        [Sorry. This is the right comment of Daniel’s under which it should appear. Please ignore previous three submissions, and do excuse me for the trouble.]

        Dear Sean and others,

        So I have also done some research on female circumcision in Indonesia. Wikipedia (how’s that for scholarly credentials?) defines “female circumcision” as removal of (part or all of) the clitoral HOOD (NOT the clitoris itself) and defines “female genital mutilation” (FGM) separately as “clitoridectomy (removal of the clitoris itself) or infibulation.” The 90% statistic for Indonesia seems to be accurate, but this statistic is for female circumcision, not FGM. Until recently, the procedure included snipping a small part of the clitoral hood, whereas now it has been reduced mostly to a more symbolic pricking. More severe procedures like FGM (including clitoridectomy and infibulation) are not what’s being counted in this statistic. It is FGM (as opposed to female circumcision) which seems to be prevalent mostly in east and northeast Africa as a cultural tradition engaged in by Muslims, Christians, animists, and even Ethiopian Jews.

        There is some hadith evidence suggesting the preferability of circumcision (not FGM), but scholars differ over the reliability of different reports and there is a difference of opinion on the status of the practice from one legal school to another. The Shafi‘i school seems to recommend it the most strongly, which would explain why the Indonesian ‘ulama, as well as the general populace, seem to favor the practice in such high numbers (Indonesia being basically entirely of the Shafi‘i rite). They simultaneously forbid FGM, however, and many statements by Islamic scholars of various schools are available condemning FGM as a forbidden and un-Islamic practice. Ali Gomaa as Grand Mufti of Egypt declared a blanket prohibition on ALL forms of female genital cutting (including circumcision) in 2007. This is also not surprising, I think, since Egypt is one of those countries where more severe forms of FGM—those forbidden by Islam and condemned by Muslim scholars—appear to be quite common. Given that context, he apparently found it wiser to ban everything in order to avoid any ambiguity in an environment ripe with FGM. Since FGM is not at issue in Indonesia, however, the scholars there apparently feel there is no harm in recommending circumcision, since it is not likely to leak over into FGM.

        As I have mentioned in a post to a previous message, cutting of the clitoral hood (or part of it) would seem, from a purely anatomical perspective, to be equivalent to male circumcision, where the foreskin alone, and no part of the male organ itself, is removed. It makes sense that these procedures would be referred to by the same term and that euphemisms referring to sexual intercourse as “the meeting of the two circumcised parts” (التقاء المختونين) would also use the same term (مختون) for the male and the female. As Sean rightly suggests, actual FGM (e.g., clitoridectomy) would be closer to actually chopping off the glans, which no one would seriously suggest as a religiously sanctioned (or even sane) practice.

        As I also mentioned in that other post, I believe that if there is ANY ambiguity about (very limited forms of) female circumcision leaking over into actual FGM, then it would be much better to prohibit the practice altogether, as Ali Gomaa has tried to do. However, in the absence of any fear of FGM (by dint of being a widespread cultural practice as in, e.g., east Africa), I do not see, from a purely objective perspective, why female circumcision (affecting only the clitoral HOOD) should be considered any more objectionable than male circumcision. Mind you, some hyper-liberal Western activists like to get all up in arms about male circumcision as well, referring to it as “MGM” (male genital mutilation) and other hyperbolic appelations, which most of us (Muslims, as well as Jews, as well as the majority of American males) would, I think, find ridiculous and dramatically exaggerated. If you ask probably anyone from a community or country where male circumcision is the norm, they will probably tell you that it is cleaner and looks better and way preferable to the alternative, and that they are disgusted by the thought or sight of an uncircumcised penis. I can imagine that in Indonesia and other places where female circumcision (not FGM) is the norm, people would probably have very much the same reaction, which is entirely natural and to be expected. The fact that people in the West (and many Muslim countries as well) have no cultural familiarity with female circumcision is bound to produce the expected reaction of disgust and outrage, especially since they would simply confound this (essentially harmless) practice with the very real—and very tragic—consequences of actual FGM that we see too often in too many countries (esp. in Africa).

        But I think that if we’re going to have a mature conversation about this, we need to all be clear that, to whatever extent some Muslim scholars or schools of thought consider / have considered female circumcision to be preferable or recommended, they are talking specifically about circumcision only, affecting only the clitoral hood, and not FGM (clitoridectomy or infibulation). They are clear that the girl must not be harmed, and that any procedure that leads to mutilation or the excision of genital organs, etc., is forbidden. This will, no doubt, still not satisfy those intent on painting Islam and its practitioners in the worst possible light, but I believe an objective mind should nevertheless be able to recognize the basic equivalence between male and female circumcision, and not automatically conflate this latter with the (regrettably all too common) forms of female genital mutilation we hear about all too often in certain countries and regions of the world.

        Ahmad B.

      • Sean

        Ahmed. I completely understand your line of reasoning. I used to wish that FGM activists did not include the pricking or scraping or even “clitoral hood” removal methods in their statistics. These are stupid, cruel, traumatizing acts, but they likely do not result in permanent harm.

        But then I realized that the only way to assess this practice, shrouded in secrecy and performed primarily by “midwives”, is to include all incidents that involve bloodletting from the genitals. Areas with allegedly mild forms of “circumcision” have been shown to really be performing excisions on huge numbers of children. Example: Kurdish Syria and Iraq.

        “Nevertheless, direct observation of FGM procedures in 2001-2002 showed that it certainly involves pain, rubbing and scraping (24.3 percent). There was real genital cutting (49.2 percent incision and 22.4 percent excision). There was also stretching (3 percent) and a small proportion of pricking and piercing (1.1 percent).”
        jakartaglobe.beritasatu.com/opinion/commentary-female-genital-cutting-common-indonesia-offered-part-…

        22.4% excision rates seem to reflect a removal of part or all of the clitoris. In a nation as populous as Indonesia, this is a lot of damage being done to women.

        You accuse Westerners of assuming the worst and would prefer us to believe that the midwives of Indonesia who come after toddlers with scissors are doing something completely harmless. In fact, Muslims constantly ask us to assume the best of them regardless of evidence to the contrary. Example: “Muslims who say the most disdainful and disrespectful things about Western female sexuality are actually the nicest people you will ever meet and you should have no worries about them.” Hmm. I guess I am not as trusting as you would like me to be.

        Whether FGM/”circumcision” is Islamic or not, it is a practice tolerated almost exclusively by Muslims for most of recorded history. Like honor killing, I view its persistence as a product of the overall Muslim attitude towards women and sexuality.

      • Jonaid

        “Muslims who say the most disdainful and disrespectful things about Western female sexuality are actually the nicest people you will ever meet and you should have no worries about them.”

        Sean, if this was referring to what I said in one of the comments, than you misrepresented what I said. I was speaking about Muslims who make general, sweeping moral judgments about the West. Personally I find it hypocritical and disgusting when it gets specific and refers exclusively to “female sexuality.” I would never defend a person making such statements unless I had personal reasons to believe they did not mean it. Also, I did not say that there is nothing to worry about. In fact I said that words can cause a lot of harm (i.e. giving people a false image of Islam & Muslims) BUT one should not exaggerate the actual problems. Words do not mean actual harm is done in terms of actions taken.

    • Inqiyaad

      Sean,

      That means the Western troops either perpetrate (please do look up the reference Daniel provided) or are ordered to facilitate child rape. We will fly half way across the world to bomb people because we don’t like that women cover up but we will stand back while children are raped because it is a cultural practice. Well what about women covering up, was it considered a cultural practice? Again, the ideal ‘Muslim’ for you is the ‘Afghan Official’, a puppet who facilitates your invasion and occupation, and then rapes under your watch to help you spew prejudice.

      So, the quote attributed by you to Qutb is partly right, “We are endowing our children with amazement and respect for the master who tramples our honor and enslaves us.”

      Reply
  14. M.Mahmud

    Wow subhanAllah is mm finally allowing jihad with the tongue? I am very amazed this must surely be a good sign if Allah wills it.

    Daniel, I love you.

    Reply
  15. Jack

    “Other than India and Zimbabwe, the rest of the top 10 countries with the highest incidence of rape in the world are Western”

    What a pathetic and intellectually dishonest argument you’ve made. The West has higher official rates of sexual assault because the West actually bothers to document, report, and prosecute sexual assault, as opposed to simply shaming victims into silence as many third world countries, including most Muslim majority ones, do. Taking sexual assault statistics from culturally conservative. economically underdeveloped societies with poor, corrupt law enforcement and judicial capabilities at face value is beyond absurd. The fact that Egypt and the Congo don’t make the list you referenced should be proof enough of that.

    Furthermore, to the extent that the West does have a problem with sexual assault, a highly disproportionate percentage of sexual crimes in the West are committed by Muslim men, as well as other men of minority backgrounds who never fully assimilated into the various European cultures they now inhabit. For instance, I see Sweden listed as number 2 on the list you referenced to “prove” that the West has a higher rate of rape than the Muslim world. While the politically correct Swedish government no longer breaks down crime statistics by ethnicity in its official reports (take one guess as to why,) studies done decades ago showed Muslim men of immigrant backgrounds as committing the overwhelming majority of sexual assault in Sweden, and I can only imagine that it has gotten far worse since than. The fact is that scandals such as Cologne and Rotherham represent only the tip of the iceberg that is the ongoing Muslim caused rape epidemic in Europe, an epidemic that will only get worse as so-called refugees from Muslim majority nations flood into the Western world and the gutless leftist establishment covers up their crimes and pathologies.

    This article is correct in one thing: there is a war being waged on western women, but it is a war whose shock troops are unassimilated, anti social minorities, such as the Muslim population of Europe, and the delusional politically correct feminists who would rather see women in their society be raped than be called “racist” by advocating for a sane immigration policy that would actually preserve the social, economic, and sexual freedom for Western women that feminists worked so long to gain.

    Reply
    • Inqiyaad

      Jack, actually, it is your argument that is hemiplegic at best and quadriplegic at worst. This card of last resort, ‘we are better at documenting our crimes’, is brought up whenever a positive statistic (rape, HIV incidence, single motherhood etc) from the Muslim majority nations is shared.

      Let’s assume for now that this is the functional limb of your argument and focus on the dysfunctional limb. Majority of reported rapes are not violent crimes committed by a stranger, rather majority are committed by acquaintances. Majority of acquaintance rapes (and as such rapes in general) committed on campuses have been associated with alcohol consumption (Emily Yoffe). Alcohol and the ability to meet up strangers at bars (who end up being acquaintances by the end of the night) are severely restricted in Muslim majority countries. Maybe this is one reason (one other reason, if you prefer) that the incidence of rape is lower in Muslim countries.

      Another reason, a lot of Western intellectuals are blaming the confused approach that feminists have taken to balancing ‘sexual freedom’ with ‘sexual liability’. It is clear that despite the sexual revolution, liability is higher for women. Therefore, attempts are being made to tip this liability against men and sometimes unjustly so. So, maybe the Muslims should give the feminists a little more time to figure this out before they themselves jump headlong into this mess. Even if that offends ‘leading authorities’ on Muslim culture, like Kamal Daoud, and Hirsis. As an aside, Sean, ‘leading authority’ could translate as ‘Sayyid Qutb’. But, then, we are talking about two different things, aren’t we?

      Now, Jack, coming to the assumed functional limb of your argument. In fact, the best estimates of rape reporting indicate that even in the USA, only between 5-40% of rapes are reported. It didn’t take you more than half a sentence to go from reporting to prosecution, and glaringly, you leave out conviction rates. However, the fact remains that a very small fraction of reported rapes are prosecuted and even fewer result in convictions. A similar trend has been reported in the UK.

      While we are in the UK, let’s mention the ‘Muslim’ gangs that have been involved in grooming for sexual exploitation, and were prosecuted by a Muslim. Only one of the two kinds of Muslims fits the description of an ideal Muslim according to your standards, am I right? A ‘Muslim’ who drinks (never mind that he could be a gangster) to show that he is a progressive beacon to the medieval orthodox Muslims, and then rapes to help you spew your prejudice.

      So now, let this stump of your argument roll itself over to propose that the Western World lacks incestuous gremlins that exist within the ‘other’.

      Reply
    • Minion

      What makes you think we care what you think? We rather care what God thinks of us.

      But, go ahead, see if your beloved feminism, liberalism, and gay rights will save you on the day of judgement

      Reply
  16. Inqiyaad

    Jack, actually, it is your argument that is hemiplegic at best and quadriplegic at worst. This card of last resort, ‘we are better at documenting our crimes’, is brought up whenever a positive statistic (rape, HIV incidence, single motherhood etc) from the Muslim majority nations is shared.

    Let’s assume for now that this is the functional limb of your argument and focus on the dysfunctional limb. Majority of reported rapes are not violent crimes committed by a stranger, rather majority are committed by acquaintances. Majority of acquaintance rapes (and as such rapes in general) committed on campuses have been associated with alcohol consumption (Emily Yoffe). Alcohol and the ability to meet up strangers at bars (who end up being acquaintances by the end of the night) are severely restricted in Muslim majority countries. Maybe this is one reason (one other reason, if you prefer) that the incidence of rape is lower in Muslim countries.

    Another reason, a lot of Western intellectuals are blaming the confused approach that feminists have taken to balancing ‘sexual freedom’ with ‘sexual liability’. It is clear that despite the sexual revolution, liability is higher for women. Therefore, attempts are being made to tip this liability against men and sometimes unjustly so. So, maybe the Muslims should give the feminists a little more time to figure this out before they themselves jump headlong into this mess. Even if that offends ‘leading authorities’ on Muslim culture, like Kamal Daoud, and Hirsis. As an aside, Sean, ‘leading authority’ could translate as ‘Sayyid Qutb’. But, then, we are talking about two different things, aren’t we?

    Now, Jack, coming to the assumed functional limb of your argument. In fact, the best estimates of rape reporting indicate that even in the USA, only between 5-40% of rapes are reported. It didn’t take you more than half a sentence to go from reporting to prosecution, and glaringly, you leave out conviction rates. However, the fact remains that a very small fraction of reported rapes are prosecuted and even fewer result in convictions. A similar trend has been reported in the UK.

    While we are in the UK, let’s mention the ‘Muslim’ gangs that have been involved in grooming for sexual exploitation, and were prosecuted by a Muslim. Only one of the two kinds of Muslims fits the description of an ideal Muslim according to your standards, am I right? A ‘Muslim’ who drinks (never mind that he could be a gangster) to show that he is a progressive beacon to the medieval orthodox Muslims, and then rapes to help you spew your prejudice.

    So now, let this stump of your argument roll itself over to propose that the Western World lacks incestuous gremlins that exist within the ‘other’.

    Reply
    • Jonaid

      If there is any serious editing or moderating on this website they would take this article down before more hateful and ignorant commentaries are published. All this must have been foreseeable to anyone with a half a brain.

      Reply
      • Sean

        Yeah. I’m sure all these problems will go away if you just censor the comments or remove the article.

        I, for one, assume that the average Muslim in America holds views identical to the article’s author, whether those views are written for all to see, or whether they are quietly discussed with other Muslims at home or in the mosque.

      • Jonaid

        Sean,

        First of all, you mistook the intent of my remark. If you read my earlier comments you’d know that I was very critical of this article for several reasons. I took offense at its tone – it comes across as West-bashing and is full of unsubstantiated and exaggerated claims. The reason why I said it should be taken down is precisely because of that. Something entitled “The Sexual Perversity of the Western World” on the opening page of a popular website is not only stupid (because it leads to pointless & hateful arguments) but more importantly it should never have been allowed in the first place. It is inauthentic and DOES NOT represent the *actual* position of most Muslims. I’ll try to clarify what I mean below.

        As someone who IS a Muslim, and American, and (I assume therefore) in a much better position to judge what most or average Muslims really think compared to someone such as yourself, let me be frank and address what you claimed. I’ve noticed that most Muslims are quick to pass verbal judgments and make criticize what they perceive to be degradation and decadence (be it of the West or their own cultures or some other eastern culture). A stranger listening in would automatically conclude that these are some hate-mongering, throat-slashing barbarians. However, the vast, vast majority of them are actually some of the kindest and NON-judgmental people in their ACTIONS. They say some distasteful things for several reasons: 1) they may come a culture where such phenomenon that they’re now criticizing are kept hidden from the public so they’re shocked to see something so different and, yes, decadent in their view (not unlike our own Evangelicals here) 2) their is an insecurity on the part of some, 3) a tiny percentage of them are just hypocrites – they criticize loudly on the outside but indulge freely in secret (it’s their way of pretending to prove their piety). The point is that IN ACTION the vast majority of muslims will be the nicest, most tolerant people you’ll find. Words make a lot of difference but actions are what count in the end.

        I’ll leave you with a simple example: I had a very close friend who used to work for a LGBT rights organization in New York City. He would stand on the streets and ask for donations for the organization and its cause. I was an atheist back then (and no fan of Islam) and in response to one rant of mine against Muslims he said “you know a few times some women wearing headscarves came up to me and talked to me about what my organization is all about. They were very nice women and subscribed with us too.” This is just an example – I’m not basing my argument on this so don’t take it in reverse order.

        Thank you.

      • Sean

        Muslim views of sexuality, female propriety and gender roles may be held by otherwise “nice” and “tolerant” people. But that does not help women, does it? If I want to figure out what life is like under a Muslim conception of sexuality, I have only to look at Muslim societies around the world.

        “By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?”

        The fruit of the Islamic world is a cluster of bitter grapes that sets the teeth of women on edge. Honor killings, incomprehensible to the West. Purdah in its many permutations. Child marriage. Polygamy. Poor educational outcomes. Slut shaming. Harassment.

        Apparently you would like us to sit back and hope that the nice, tolerant Muslims living in the West who mutter their disgust and hatred of Western sexual and gender mores will not actually harm anyone with their attitudes. We have seen the results of THAT experiment in Europe.

        I view Muslims with misogynistic attitudes as unsavory and a personal threat to my freedoms. I don’t care how nice they might otherwise seem.

      • Ahmad B.

        Dear Sean,

        Come on, now. There’s gotta be more to it than that, doesn’t there? How do you explain the fact that conversion to Islam in the West is more common among women than men? That a woman might actually find dignity in covering her body, not intermingling casually with men, and developing her intellectual and spiritual capacities rather than spending huge amounts of time and money chasing the latest fads and dressing up for everyone to see, where so much of her worth is tied to her physical beauty and sex appeal? Where there’s constant competition among women for male attention and validation, based largely on physical attributes: you call that freedom?

        As I have said in a previous post, the principle of Islam (the religion, not necessarily Muslim cultures) is the middle path between extremes. I completely agree with you that many Muslim societies have, in various ways, fallen short of this middle path and veered into some of the pathologies you mention. But please be critical of your own society as well, as it is hardly a model to be emulated (though it does of course, as Jonaid keeps pointing out, have many positive qualities — something you seem unwilling to grant to Muslim societies as well).

        I think it’s utterly naive to believe that an unbridled sexual free-for-all, as we currently see in the West, is, on the whole, liberating for women, where in cultural terms, there can be a high social price to be paid for not conceding to men’s constant advances, where girls in public high schools are casually expected to suck their classmates’ penises just to remain “in” and be seen as normal, “friendly,” and not a prude. (I have read several articles about this in the past few years.)

        Let us not deny that it is a universal trait among humans that males, on the average, seek a larger number and variety of sexual partners than women and are much more okay with short-term meaningless hook-ups than women, who often end up feeling violated and abused by such. But the current social scene in the West, despite the disingenuous cries to the contrary on the part of some feminists, is now, more than ever, set up entirely on male terms. It’s the (more sordid and less discriminating) male libido and sexual norms that have been generalized to the population as a whole, with women basically brainwashed into the idea that they have to be as promiscuous and undiscriminating as many typical males in order to be free, or even “normal.” But what kind of liberation is this, where the female’s identity, needs, and role are entirely patterned on and subsumed under the masculine norm, with no regard to her own specific makeup, proclivities, and needs? (Oh, I forgot, in the West we must stubbornly deny, in the face of all obvious evidence, that there is any substantial difference between men and women on any level. Don’t you see the very glaring blind spot created by adherence to this pernicious dogma?)

        By the way, have you read Wendy Shalit’s “A Return to Modesty: Discovering the Lost Virtue”? It is very eye-opening, and should help you bring some balance to what otherwise seems to be a rather dogmatic and ideologically charged view on your part that lacks nuance and paints the world in simplistic black-and-white, “we’re good, you’re evil” terms. (I admit that some Muslims on this site have fallen into the same trap, but I’m sure that as an enlightened, rational Westerner, you should expect to hold yourself to higher standards.)

        Best,
        Ahmad B.

      • Jonaid

        “If I want to figure out what life is like under a Muslim conception of sexuality, I have only to look at Muslim societies around the world.”

        This may be true as you’ve written it here…”under a Muslim conception of sexuality.” The distinction one ought to make is that Islam – by which I mean the Quran and Muhammad’s mission – is not necessarily followed by its adherents as it was meant to be. This is not a point I expect you to take my word on and it’s difficult to convince someone unless they first understand the original message and then Islamic history.

        By your reasoning, someone could claim that if you want to see pure racism and systematic segregation you should visit the United States. For the bulk of our history we’ve been an openly (and legally) racist nation with legally enforceable segregation. Today there is – for lack of a better phrase – “voluntary” segregation and racism is plaguing many parts of the country.

        There’s many other examples one can give about almost any civilization. Yes, the Muslim world is unfortunately plagued by many social ills today. The overwhelming majority still have great respect for their religious tradition so obviously any phenomenon – good or bad, legit or not – will be framed in, and justified, using religious language. Does that mean it is actually religious? Actually Islamic?

        Be fair and objective. It’s a sign of a higher intellect.

      • Jonaid

        If the fruit is mishandled after it is collected from the tree and no one wants to buy it in the market it does NOT mean the tree – or the fruit itself – is the problem. The people delivering it are incompetent and negligent.

      • Sean

        “That a woman might actually find dignity in covering her body, not intermingling casually with men, and developing her intellectual and spiritual capacities rather than spending huge amounts of time and money chasing the latest fads and dressing up for everyone to see, where so much of her worth is tied to her physical beauty and sex appeal?”

        Ahmed, are you living in the West? Here is a list of the many women in my neighborhood who do not dress like sexpots and do not base their identity on their sexuality: the grocery checkers at my local store and drugstore, the ladies who run the indie bookstore, the librarians at my local library branch dress, the women who work at the post office and as postal carriers, the woman who runs the Italian restaurant down the street with her son, the dental hygienists and secretary at my dentist’s office, the nurses and doctors at the medical clinic, the teachers who work with little kids at the local elementary school, the daycare workers, and on and on it goes. The vast majority of women enjoy looking nice and wearing attractive clothing just like anyone beyond the age of preschool, but they do not base their identity on overtly sexual clothing or appearance. Some women do not care at all. The indie bookstore ladies, for example.

        These are regular women with families, problems, careers and hobbies. The number of women who actually are trying to get sexual attention are in the minority. Why don’t you tell me where you see the overtly sexual women in YOUR neighborhood? Do your postal workers wear fishnet and six-inch heels? Or is any woman without full covering an automatic sexpot to you?

        And please do not try to convince me that a beautiful woman in a hijab or even a niqab does not get different, better treatment and more and better marriage offers in Islamic societies. We all know that physical attractiveness is a complex attribute that impacts us throughout life. Women in abayas are still fat or thin. Women in hijabs are still pretty or not so pretty, young or old. It is impossible to escape the fact that we are sexual beings. There are sites for men who find veiling to be a sexual turn on, seemingly a new area of fetish for Western men who are just experiencing heavy veiled women.

  17. M.Mahmud

    “Those Muslims think we are dirty perverts, lets kick them out since they don’t like it here”

    ﴿وَمَا كَانَ جَوَابَ قَوْمِهِ إِلاَ أَن قَالُواْ أَخْرِجُوهُم مِّن قَرْيَتِكُمْ إِنَّهُمْ أُنَاسٌ يَتَطَهَّرُونَ ﴾

    (82. And the answer of his people was only that they said: “Drive them out of your town, these are indeed men who want to be pure (from sins)!”) So they answered Prophet Lut by trying to expel and banish him from their village, along with those who believed with him. Allah indeed removed Prophet Lut safely from among them, and He destroyed them in their land in disgrace and humiliation. They said (about Lut and the believers):

    ﴿إِنَّهُمْ أُنَاسٌ يَتَطَهَّرُونَ﴾

    (“These are indeed men who want to be pure (from sins)!”) Qatadah commented, “They shamed them (Lut and the believers) with what is not a shame at all.” Mujahid commented, “(Lut’s people said about Lut and the believers,) They are a people who want to be pure from men’s anuses and women’s anuses!” Similar was narrated from Ibn `Abbas.

    qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1135&Itemid=62

    Reply
  18. Dalia

    All the issues mentioned in the article are found in Muslim countries just as well. I am surprised the author tries to classify them as problems caused by a supposedly Western or liberal lifestyle when in reality it’s double standards, conservative gender norms and suppression that foster misogyny, violence, and rape culture.

    Also, comparing rape statistics and then concluding that the country with the highest reported number has the highest number of actual rapes, is highly problematic and not scientific at all. I think we all know that reporting assault or rape can be very difficult or even dangerous for women in living in some Muslim countries. Not to mention the fact that marital rape doesn’t even count as rape in a number of places. I’m living in a Muslim country where sexual harassment in public is part of daily life and police and military are well known to harass and rape women. If I was sexually assaulted or raped I doubt I would bother reporting it here. In Pakistan, the prisons are full of rape victims. And I’m sure many remember the incident in Qatif, KSA where a gang rape victim was sentenced to receive a number of lashes.

    “…
    Which two countries are the kidnapping capitals of the world?

    Australia and Canada.

    Official figures from the United Nations show that there were 17 kidnaps per 100,000 people in Australia in 2010 and 12.7 in Canada.
    That compares with only 0.6 in Colombia and 1.1 in Mexico.

    So why haven’t we heard any of these horror stories? Are people being grabbed off the street in Sydney and Toronto, while the world turns a blind eye?

    No, the high numbers of kidnapping cases in these two countries are explained by the fact that parental disputes over child custody are included in the figures.

    If one parent takes a child for the weekend, and the other parent objects and calls the police, the incident will be recorded as a kidnapping, according to Enrico Bisogno, a statistician with the United Nations.

    Comparing crime rates across countries is fraught with difficulties – this is well known among criminologists and statisticians, less so among journalists and commentators.

    Sweden has the highest rape rate in Europe, author Naomi Wolf said on the BBC’s Newsnight programme recently. She was commenting on the case of Julian Assange, the Wikileaks founder who is fighting extradition from the UK to Sweden over rape and sexual assault allegations that he denies.

    Is it true? Yes. The Swedish police recorded the highest number of offences – about 63 per 100,000 inhabitants – of any force in Europe, in 2010. The second-highest in the world.

    This was three times higher than the number of cases in the same year in Sweden’s next-door neighbour, Norway, and twice the rate in the United States and the UK. It was more than 30 times the number in India, which recorded about two offences per 100,000 people.

    On the face of it, it would seem Sweden is a much more dangerous place than these other countries.

    But that is a misconception, according to Klara Selin, a sociologist at the National Council for Crime Prevention in Stockholm. She says you cannot compare countries’ records, because police procedures and legal definitions vary widely.

    “In Sweden there has been this ambition explicitly to record every case of sexual violence separately, to make it visible in the statistics,” she says.

    “So, for instance, when a woman comes to the police and she says my husband or my fiance raped me almost every day during the last year, the police have to record each of these events, which might be more than 300 events. In many other countries it would just be one record – one victim, one type of crime, one record.”

    The thing is, the number of reported rapes has been going up in Sweden – it’s almost trebled in just the last seven years. In 2003, about 2,200 offences were reported by the police, compared to nearly 6,000 in 2010.

    bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372

    Reply
  19. Dalia


    As it is useless to talk to these dreamers, I will address citizens with a more realistic outlook in our society and tell them that child abuse rates in the US will come down with time, while it will increase in our society.

    The reason for this is the way each country deals with the problem. From a legal point of view, while sexual harassment against children in the US is considered a heinous crime, we look at it as a mistake or a wrongdoing, not as a crime, unless the child has been raped.

    The child molester in America is considered a dangerous criminal while for us he is a man who committed a mistake that does not necessarily entail informing the police!

    In the US, there is a detailed description of child harassment. Showing a pornographic picture to a child or talking to him about sex in the US is considered molestation, while in the Kingdom sexual harassment cannot be considered abuse unless actual sex act has taken place.

    From a social point of view, it is a duty of parents and adults in America who notice their children being abused to inform police, but in our society parents would feel ashamed to tell officers if their son or daughter has been molested!

    The Americans can confront this problem because they know that they are human beings and hence liable to make mistakes, while those in Saudi Arabia are unable to deal with this problem because they want to adhere to the imaginary idea that we are the purest society in the whole world.

    arabnews.com/node/349809

    Reply
    • Jonaid

      I’m not trying to flatter you Dalia but I find time & time again that Muslim women are much more intelligent than their male counterparts. At the very least, they’re more *reasonable* and balanced. Perhaps it’s no coincidence that the Muslim World is lagging far behind because the women HAVE indeed been suppressed (in direct contradiction to Islamic values).

      Reply
  20. Someguy

    What is really sad is that these westerners are really disillusioned enough to beleive that they have a better way of life. I agree. You cannot be someone who claims to be a “westerner” and also Muslim. The 2 civilizations have opposing world views. West derives its inception from homosexual pedhophile, boy loving Greeks, while Muslisms claims to follow Islam, the religion of all the prophets. West says if it feels good do it, Islam says fear Allah. West says men and women have a right to be openly sexual, Islam says to tell believing men and women to lower their gaze and not expose other than that which is apparant. West says man is the law maker, Islam says Gods law is the most supreme and worthy of obedience. I mean I can go on and on. There is an inherent conflict between the 2 world views. So please don’t tell me you are a westerner Muslim as if the 2 can be reconciled. You are a muslim living in the west. There are many good people in the west who need Islam in their lives and take them out of their misery and satanic world view. We need to save as many souls as we can, instead of coming to the west to make only money. How aboht saving this wretched society and.miserable disillisioned souls by.offering.them a superior way of life I.e Islam.

    Reply
    • Jonaid

      Someguy,

      So why does Allah allow the “West” to flourish to the extent that it has? Why is common courtesy, rule of law, cleanliness in the public sphere, economic prosperity and unprecedented religious tolerance found in countries like the USA? Are you claiming that they accomplished all this in spite of God Almighty? Did they somehow circumvent Allah and find another source for all the good that is found in the West (and if you deny that there is any good at all than that says a lot about you and this conversation obviously can’t go any further)?

      Also, what is “muslim civilization” today? As someone born in USA, what do I have in common with an Indonesian except a shared ideology on Creation & ethics? You cannot divide in two based on two different criterion. The “West” denotes a region and “Islam” denotes a religion. Tribalism (and the resulting pride) is the root disease of Muslims today. It was the cause of most of the problems that are rampant across the “Muslim World.”

      There is a brilliant series that was recently released by MBC (a Middle Eastern network) on Umar Ibn Al Khattab. It conforms to the traditional sources almost perfectly (or as perfectly as possible I should say) and anyone watching it will tear up multiple times, especially if they’re familiar with the seerah literature. Guess what, the overwhelming majority of the world’s Muslim scholars condemned it because it depicts the companions of the Prophet, in particular Umar, Abu Bakr, Ali and Uthman. Al Azhar and Medina University united on this point. It is shameful and pathetic and highlights exactly why Islam has stagnated and has become an almost universally attacked religion. WE – Muslims – are guilty of this. Comments by muslims here depict our own insecurities resulting from our weak faith in God and strong faith in our tribe.

      Trust in God alone. Allah is not only your God. The entire world belongs to Him.

      Peace.

      P.S. I’m a Westerner and Muslim. Thank God for that – in our time I could not ask for a better combination.

      Reply
  21. Jonaid

    I have to add: That Umar series had more impact on me than ANY lecture or class by a host of Islamic scholars over the past decade and a half. It helped me on journey to Islam.

    I want you to a simple question: if our scholars were “rightly guided” overall, would the “Muslim World” be in this condition? Who has more influence on religious matters than our Ulema?

    Use your reason. God gave it to you to be used objectively.

    Reply
    • Jonaid

      Please do not misunderstand me. I’m referring to the religious scholars and institutions of our day and the recent past – not all scholars since the revelation.

      Reply
  22. Someguy

    Brother junaid you are mixing some concepts and lumping them all togather. “So why does Allah allow the “West” to flourish to the extent that it has.” Firstly, if the criteria for a people to be truly “successful” were measured by what is apparent by worldy status then ramses II ( the pharoh) of Quran and Torah just might.be the most “succesful” man ever. I mean he ruled the most advanced and powerful civilization ever for 60 years. However, we know that.he will be.in the lowest level of hell. And how many.other generations.did Allah.allow to.flourish as a trial for.them? What do you and an Indonesian have in common? Islam, the.bond of.brotherhood. Prophet saw said the.ummah is like a body if.one.part hurts the whole.body hurts. So the.person in.Indonesia is your.brother in Islam, in this life and.in.hereafter. What else do.you.need to.be.in common.than.the.bond of.brotherhood.of Islam? You might have been.born.in usa but are the son of foreigners.and.will never be an American unless you are European descent. Just ask the 3rd generation Muslims in the U.K if they are ever accepted as being truly British. Islam the religion, and west are inherently at odds with.each other simply.because muslims are required to take Quran.as the actual world of Allah and his laws as eternal, whereas as the west says a group of people who eat sleep deficate copulate get.sick.and die, can get togather and make laws better than Allah. Dont.you.see the inherent difference in that?

    Reply
    • Jonaid

      I was using “flourishing” in reference to civilizations – not individuals – and by metrics which are universally accepted (i.e. rule of law, education, social cohesion, public sanitation, healthcare, religious freedoms, government tyranny & oppression etc). Even Muslims would agree that these things are desirable, if not necessary. The West is leading in these and Muslims are lagging far behind. Acknowledge the good in other cultures and the bad in your own – that is a sure way to success, not vice versa.

      I believe the West is closer to the principles of Islam than many “muslim” countries today. You obviously don’t. Let’s agree to disagree.

      Peace.

      Reply
  23. Sanjida

    So I was really angry at the content of this because it is hate speech, but then I read the original article and realize this is satire and the original article is most definitely Hate Speech. Thank you for this beautifully written satire. This gave me some perspective.

    Reply
  24. Tom the Taalib

    Assalam alaykum,

    This article, the original NYT piece, and all the above comments give a lot to reflect upon. By commenting I want to try to synthesize some themes that resonated for me throughout and focus in on some of the more open ended issues that are relevant to our thinking going forward.

    Firstly, Brother Daniel as usual it extremely articulate in illuminating the hypocrisy and flimsiness of mainstream secular-liberal values. I think that this is generally a worthwhile and important project given the normativity of those values and how they’ve been deployed imperialistically by the US government as well as other colonial and neo-colonial powers against Muslim people. Among the plethora of examples are; the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan was partially justified even in official circles by the real and/or imagined plight of Afghani women; the UN has recently been attempting to pressure nations such as Saudi Arabia to abandon the death penalty; the US government coordinating tours and exhibitions for jazz, modern art, and hip hop across Eastern Europe and Central Asia since the Cold War to engender love for “Western values and culture.” Whatever we can do to counter that narrative is worthwhile.

    Dalia has been bringing up and substantiating an uncomfortable but necessary dimension of this discussion: some of that criticism (from Western institutions) is deserved. Muslim nations and communities have problems with sexual assault, corruption, violence, etc. This brings up several good questions: Is it truly irrelevant to compare Western practice with Islamic values when we don’t implement those values in the first place? Aren’t these global problems and not Western ones? Do we run the risk of not holding ourselves accountable by focusing on this civilizational antagonism? Although I really agree with where these questions are coming from I think the point of the article, or at least it’s context, is somewhat missed. Firstly, we need to differentiate between things that are legitimately part of Islamic Law and thus our beliefs (like capital punishment) with things that are violations of Islamic Law (rape). Ideological assaults on Islam coming from secular-liberal places not only don’t differentiate between these two categories, they see them as varying degrees of the same problems (eg. rape and the headscarf symbolize female oppression). This necessary distinction alone justifies Daniel’s article. Also, I think Daniel would argue (and I would agree) that the sexual perversions practiced openly in Western countries are products or logical outcomes of a set of flawed and impractical ideals/values while the Muslim condition is a failure to internalize and implement perfect values. So the question still remains, if these perfect values are nowhere to be found, so what? I think that question itself would be relevant if Muslim youth in the West were tripping over each other to return to their ancestral lands or other Muslim countries. But our situation is the opposite, youth in Muslim lands are clamoring to come Westward, partly in response to legitimate push-factors and partly as a product of deceitful pull-factors leading them to imagine that the West is some paradise on earth (or Hollywood on earth). Leaving aside the religious issue of whether or not it’s appropriate to migrate to non-Muslim countries, those who do come are vastly misinformed and underprepared for the trials of life in the West. Muslims in the West are prey to this thinking as well. In other words, no one’s trying to tell Muslim youth or Muslims in general that it’s necessarily better in their Muslim-majority country, what’s being claimed is that life in the West and especially the West’s philosophical and cultural ideals are not working solutions to these problems. I agree that we need to own up to our own problems, but I also think it’s a red herring to imply that we shouldn’t be delegitimizing Western claims of cultural and moral superiority.

    Jonaid brings up a more open-ended question of how to best respond to these sorts of inevitable provocations, ethically and strategically. One thing I believe and I sense he might agree with as well is the lamentable and slightly pathetic nature of us Muslims always speaking from a position of defense and reaction. It reminds me of the recent YQ interview with Mehdi Hasan in which he very articulately held his own but was visibly on edge being assailed by loaded questions. Contrast that with Malcolm X’s interviews and you realize that the best defense, so they say, is a good offense. It certainly seems more dignified. And we can complain as a community all we want about biased corporate media and draw up conspiracy theories about how you-know-who controls the news but in reality in this age of more democratized media we have less and less of an excuse for taking the initiative and creating our own positive, non-reactionary narrative. Why does it take another ridiculous NYT article for us to talk about the differences between Islamic vs. Western sexuality and the superiority of the former over the latter? What would it look like to be creating positive media ahead of time?

    Jazaakumullah khayra

    Reply
    • Ahmad B.

      Assalamu ‘alaikum Br. Tom,

      Your comment is an excellent contribution to this discussion. Thank you for your careful, thorough, and considered responses to the article and fellow posters. May Allah give you tawfiq.

      Wassalam,
      Ahmad B.

      Reply
    • Jonaid

      Salam Alaykum Tom,

      I second Ahmed’s comment below: really well articulated & comprehensive remark. A brief comment on the following:

      “It reminds me of the recent YQ interview with Mehdi Hasan in which he very articulately held his own but was visibly on edge being assailed by loaded questions. Contrast that with Malcolm X’s interviews and you realize that the best defense, so they say, is a good offense.”

      I have a lot of respect for Yasir Qadhi. I disagree with him on several issues but I applaud his integrity and his straightforwardness. The reason why I think he may come across “on edge” is – in my opinion – this need that traditionally trained scholars have to conform to their tradition while simultaneously finding real answers to modern issues. I imagine he’s more careful with his words because of the potential backlash from Muslim scholars and not the Western media. This is what I mean when I say we Muslims are our own enemies. We weaken each other by our pre-prepared judgments and fatwas against anyone who seems to utter anything we don’t like or understand.

      Malcolm X was brilliant – intelligent, sophisticated, witty and confident. He wasn’t limited by the traditional scholarship and his struggle was quite different from our present one. Additionally, his life experiences early on helped shape his confident, blunt approach. Someone like that might put on a good offensive today but it wouldn’t help Muslims on the issues plaguing them in their lands. Perhaps by keeping in conformity with traditionalists YQ can extend his influence in their circles – one can hope.

      Being “on edge” is not always bad in my opinion.

      Reply
  25. Someguy

    Brother Junaid, you have misunderstood my point. I never said that there wasn’t any good in the West or that Muslim countries today actually abide by Islam. Your assumption that I think this way is erroneous. Indeed there was a time when parts of what we called the West today werr actually ruled by Islamic laws in general. Back then you could actually claim to be a western Muslim. I am talking of course about Spain. During muslim rule, spanish cities were actually the most advanced in the world. So that takes care of you whole flurisihing argument. Western Europe actually was home to some of our best scholars as they were living in Muslim cities in the West. Today, Spain is a geographical city.in western.Europe that also abides by a western.world.view.in its laws and generality. Such “western” cities also exist in the so called Muslim world, and we dont have people who are really “westerners” from supposed Muslim lands. Which brings us back to my origional point, “Western” ideaolgy is proud to be rooted in ideas of pagan, homosexual, pedophilic, sexually promiscous Ancient Greece, and as such cannot be reconciled with an idealogy that basis itself in beleif of one supreme God, above all, encourges modesty, marriage, humility and above all, Taqwa to prepare for the next world, the real world. Which, by the way brings me to.another point of contention. Western ideaolgy see this world and existence as the.finality, whereas Muslim idealogy sees this world as an.illusion, a ohase, a trial, and the real world to.be the hereafter. So please reoncile all you want, but.the writing is on the wall.

    Reply
    • Jonaid

      What is “Western Ideology”? The West is historical a product not just of Greek thought but also Judeo-Christian (and Islamic albeit this is not usually recognized) thought. The legacy of Islamic Spain did not end with Muslim Spain and continued to have an impact in Europe, including the Renaissance.

      Your generalization about the West as a single civilization “rooted in ideas of pagan, homosexual, pedophilic, sexually promiscous Ancient Greece” is no different from an ignorant Western claiming that Islam / Muslims are a civilization based on the subjugation of women, the hatred of all Non-Muslims, conspiracies to conquer the whole world and forcibly convert it to Islam etc etc. Both are profoundly ignorant and likely based in hatred of the other.

      Millions of Syrian refugees are running to Europe and I want you to ask why? It’s not because the West is special or rich or free etc. It’s because their Muslim neighbors will not allow them to remain there. To their South is Jordan and Saudi Arabia, their East is Iraq (but let’s not count that for obvious reasons), to their West is Egypt, to their north is Turkey…ALL Muslim nations. Why is it that they find no temporary homes there? The West – despite the current climate – is still taking them to whatever capacity they are. I doubt any Syrian refugee will reject an opportunity to find a home in Europe due to its social ills.

      Prioritize what’s important. The West has a lot of problems but on the most important questions, it is more MORAL than Muslim nations. When Muslim tribesmen finally start being honest about this, perhaps God will start to improve their condition. God-Willing that outcome is forthcoming.

      Reply
      • Jonaid

        A correction in the first paragraph above: “The legacy of Islamic Spain did not end with Muslim *rule*…”

      • Amel

        As-salamu Alaykum,
        I hope you are aware that Jordan, Turkey, and Lebanon in particular are currently hosting millions of refugees. There are at least 2.6 million in Turkey, 1.5 million in Lebanon, and 1.4 million in Jordan. Many Gulf countries have also allowed Syrians already working there to overstay their visas.

      • Jonaid

        Amel,

        Thank you for this information. I wasn’t aware the figures were this high precisely because millions are still fleeing to Europe and elsewhere. I guess they should be able to take in the rest too but nonetheless it seems I was mistaken on this issue (I have not confirmed it but I don’t doubt you).

        Thanks.

  26. Someguy

    “West as a single civilization “rooted in ideas of pagan, homosexual, pedophilic, sexually promiscous Ancient Greece” is no different from an ignorant Western claiming that Islam” Why dont we ask western academia what they say? There is consesus amongst them that they trace their origins and idealogy from Ancient Greece. Again you present to the same futile argument of whats going in the world today in muslim majority lands vs “west” which in.no way address my argument about western idealogy being.inherintly different from Islamic idealogy. You have to failed to confront me on that. West might have had some reminents of the the so called Judeo/Christian ( I also objct to that term, but lets leave thay for a different time), but in no way does the west resemble any religious civilization. Religion and God has been removed from.the public sphere and replaced with evolution, mother nature, and every is right. Again, please convince me that you can idealize western idealogy as described above and claim to be practicing muslim. Muslims majority lands may be horrible, but who does that address my point of the two idealogies being inherently oppositional?

    Reply
    • Jonaid

      Look up Puritanism. Americans Puritans were almost identical to any traditional Muslim society. If you saw them you would not know they were not Muslims until you discussed theology with them. Harvard University was founded by the Puritans. They’ve had tremendous influence in the United States. In fact one can argue that the bulk of the United States is still influenced far more by Christianity than Ancient Greece. The Academics that you’re reading want to increase the influence of Greece and Rome and minimize – if not completely disregard – the Christian roots of the West. The secular academia does not necessarily represent the views of the masses (certainly not in USA).

      In any case, I’m not defending any ideology – Western or Eastern. I was defending Western Civilization from the broad, unsubstantiated allegations you made.

      God knows best.

      Reply
  27. Someguy

    Thank you for that lesson on American history, bring back memories from my middle school days. Again, there is no “Puritanism” as you say in American mainstream society today, most certainly not at Harvard. Don’t recall the Puritans being too fond of Evolution as championed at Harvard. As for the masses, like I said before, religion is being wiped away ( in some European countries has been completely annihilated) from the public sphere. So the roots you talk about are just that, roots, with little to no resemblance to their past. Case in point, legalization of homosexuality and 2 gay men being allowed to adopt young girls to raise them. These are just 2 random examples that come to mind in your “Puritan” U.S. Western civilization as it stands, is not represented by religiosity, but do what feels good as long as you are not physically hurting anyone mentality. Hence, pornography fall under “freedom of speech” and bestiality is legal in at least one European country. Very puritan indeed. So what you have done is mention some not half way false “facts” and avoided the actual argument at hand; is Western philosophy and world view as it stands today, reconcilable with Islamic philosophy and world view?

    Reply
  28. Lydia

    السلام عليكم
    First I want to apologize for my English, of course I don’t agree with everything in the article of daoud but to be honest “Yes” there is some truth in what he said whether we like it or not. I live in Algeria, I’m a single Muslim woman over 30, something very common in my society now days. I think instead of talking about sex in the west we should talk about this issue in the Muslim world, so I don’t know what to think about the response of the author here. There is a sexual misery in my country, and it’s a burden more on women than on men simply because while we are patient and not considering sex out of marriage, my muslim algerian brothers ( most of them) are sleeping around. Let me tell you, it’s not about Islam, it’s about our culture, it’s OK for a man to do everything he wants nobody will judge him. Believe me my muslim algerian brothers are even very proud of there sins, and they don’t consider marriage until a late age… then they look after a young virgin. I’m sick to see this every day.Finding a humble muslim man in my country becomes almost impossible. Our youth are going astray, they don’t follow the deen so we should focus on that instead of bringing the attention on the sexual misery in the western world. By ignoring the problem we will never solve it.

    Reply
    • Jonaid

      Thank you Lydia for this honest & insightful comment. The main difference between the West and the so called “Muslim World” is here we don’t necessarily hide our “sins” and the gap between how men & women are judged is not nearly as large as it is in the Muslim World. A woman guilty of a fornication or adultery is considered a much bigger dishonor & sin than a man doing it with a dozen women. One can extend this to other sex-related sins. My question is “where are the Ulama and why aren’t they keeping the right balance”? Whatever happened to the “middle way” when it comes to women’s issues? What you find on forums like this is Muslims hiding their own faults while simultaneously – and thus hypocritically – attacking the West for its shortcomings. This boils my blood and no doubt the blood of any Westerner reading this. It’s no longer about what’s true and how to fix what’s wrong but rather “my culture vs your culture.”

      I find that VERY, VERY few people – Muslims especially included – speak the truth all across the board. Some are always honest when it comes to their tribe while flexible when it comes to the other. Others are just outright hypocrites. This victim-hood mentality among Muslims is disheartening to say the least. There’s 1.6 BILLION Muslims in the world. They represent nearly a quarter of humanity. Imagine going back to the time of the Sahaba (which, incidentally, we Muslims love saying we want) – they would look at us today and probably lose their minds. They had nothing compared to what Muslims have today yet they set the foundation for everything we see today. We have everything and we’re spoiled and instead of fixing ourselves we like playing silly games like looking for people who point out our faults (regardless of their intentions they are pointing our real problems to you) and then attacking them for hurting our pride.

      End of my rant for today.

      May God have mercy on us all.

      Reply
      • Lydia

        Thank you for your reply, I totally agree with you , “Where are the Ulama” I always ask this question! But it seems that they don’t really try to think about the problem. Marriage is the sunnah of the prophet, but when it comes to single women we are told “your situation is a Devine decree, and you have to accept it” !!! I mean when a scholar says this I guess there is nothing to hope.

    • Ahmad B.

      Wa ‘alaikum assalam Sr. Lydia,

      Thank you for your contribution and for bringing forth the problems you mention. Later and later marriage ages are definitely a problem, and probably has as much to do with education and the economy than anything else. I agree that it’s maddening to see the crass double standard many men in Muslim societies have when it comes to fornication (zina), which they engage in freely and apparently with a clear conscience, although according to Islam, it is just as much a sin / crime as it would be for a woman. Then, of course, they only want to marry a virgin. Not only is this hypocritical and makes light of the teachings of Islam, but it adds to the marriage problem as well, since young men who are getting their sexual satisfaction (in illegitimate ways) have all the less pressure to really strive to prepare themselves for marriage. I can guarantee you that if these men were actually following the teachings of Islam and keeping themselves chaste, they would be a lot more eager to get married at a younger age, and you would have a lot fewer suffering women as well.

      Having said that, I certainly do NOT think that the solution is for women in the east to start fornicating like the men (and like women in the West have been encouraged to do since the 60s). We are each responsible for our actions before God on the Day of Judgment, and a Muslim woman should never give up her own virtue just to prove she can be as bad as her brothers. May Allah help us all work to a solution towards the marriage problem by figuring out ways to bring the marriage age back down to a more reasonable level.

      Wassalam,
      Ahmad B.

      Reply
      • Lydia

        Salam, of course I don’t think that the solution is for women to start fornicating like the men, not only it’s a big sin but also this way we make it even easier for men to keep going on the wrong path plus we lose our sisters too! This is the worst scenario.
        Instead and as a first step we have to recognize that we have a big problem and that we must come back to the teaching of Islam to solve it.

      • Jonaid

        I have to say: who are the men fornicating with? There must be women for most men who fornicate to fornicate with. Now ask yourself a simple logical question: let’s say 25% of Algerian men are actively engaged in this behavior (I don’t know the figure this is just hypothetical). That’s roughly 5 million men. If they don’t find women who are willing to “sin” they’ll find ways to convince them to come along. You can’t possibly tell the women to remain pious without handling the men head on. Secondly: women have a lot of patience but eventually – and this is human nature and it’s inevitable – a time will come when they’ll say “the hell with all this hypocrisy, no one says anything to them but we do one thing and we are attacked from all over.” If the situation is not resolved, it will only lead to bigger & more detrimental outcomes.

        God knows best.

      • Lydia

        Of course there are women fornicating, divorced women for example , simply because they know that there is no way to get married again, the society rejects them completely because of our culture, and of course there are single women who might get weak eventually. We maybe strong for a while but then satan starts whispering, and the longer we stay alone, the louder he gets.

      • Jonaid

        Lydia I agree with your response (I don’t know the reality in Algeria but I have no reason to doubt what you’re saying). My post was actually a response to a point Ahmed made. Of course Algerian women should not follow the men down the wrong road but one has to examine the situation logically and realize that just telling them & shaming them won’t work. If it seems to work for now, it’s just a bigger problem in the making that is temporarily contained.

        We need set our priorities straight.

      • Ahmad B.

        Plus let’s not forget the “oldest profession in the world.” From what I have heard, men in Arab societies very often have their “needs” taken care of through prostitutes. This was also very common in the West before the 1960s when sex was officially off limits outside of marriage and most women were actually virgins on their wedding day. Society of course (though not religion) gave men freer rein, so you had a small number of women who “worked” full-time serving the needs of the general male population. Now since the generality of women in the West are expected to be sexually active at a young age, men here don’t have to pay for it anymore!

        What is also not uncommon (so I have read many times) in the Arab world and other societies is men taking care of their needs with other men (usually younger), always in the active role. The man in the active role is not, of course, considered “gay” in any sense since: (a) he’s playing the male role, and (b) presumably would prefer a woman but just can’t get his hands on one. If the other male is young enough, he can also be excused as he would expect to grow out of this role upon reaching full maturity. Otherwise, if he permanently likes that role, then he’s the “fag” who all the terms of abuse get hurled at.

        I understand South Asian Muslim culture is less hypocritical than Arab culture, in that boys too are kept on a pretty tight leash and parents would go ballistic if they knew their sons were fornicating too. I had Pakistani friends tell me once that even for males in Pakistan, zina is considered a really bad thing (which, of course, it is from a purely religious perspective, so they’re right about that) and that even guys who are not particularly religious wouldn’t dare do it. It’s only the real profligates who actually go that far. They remarked being surprised, when they meet Arabs in the West, to find out that lots of normal Arab guys (not particularly religious but not particularly “bad” either) make light of zina and commit it without thinking too much of it, and that it’s only the fully practicing ones who actually discipline themselves to refrain.

        Culture obviously has a lot to do with this, and I have often been dismayed at the double standard and utter hypocrisy on this issue among a lot of people in Muslim societies who do not necessarily take the religion to be normative in such matters (of course, *officially* they do, but I’m talking in terms of their actual attitudes and actual lived practice). But again, instead of following the West in dragging women down to the level of men, we should work towards sensitizing men to the seriousness of the sin / crime of zina in Islam and work to change our social practices to make it less acceptable. And again, I think making it harder for men to actually commit zina would go a long way in helping solve the marriage problem, because they would be much more motivated to actually settle down and commit (which is the whole point of restricting sex to marriage in the first place — no free lunches).

        What you say about divorced women, Sr. Lydia, is very true and very sad as well — and, once again, an attitude that is common in our “traditional” societies but has nothing whatsoever to do with our religion. The Prophet (saas)’s only wife who was a virgin was A’isha (ra). All the rest were mature women who had been previously married and, for the most part, widowed. Zaynab, of course, was a divorcee, and other divorced women, it seems, were able to get married as well. It doesn’t seem like the stigma against divorced or widowed women (that is, non-virgin women whose non-virginity was due to legitimate reasons, i.e., a previous marriage, not fornication) was as strong for the original community as it is for many of our communities today. I always marvel at the fact that the Prophet (saas) himself’s first marriage was to a woman who: (a) was 15 years his senior; (b) had been married and widowed not once but TWICE before him (i.e., other men had “known” her so she obviously wasn’t a virgin, while he had never yet known a woman); (c) was wealthier and had more social clout than he; and (d) was the one who took the initiative in seeking him out for marriage, as opposed to the more usual way where it is the man who seeks after the woman. Furthermore, this marriage was strictly monogamous for the entirety of its 25-year duration, and it was clear and known to all that Khadija (ra) was the most beloved to him (saas) of all his later wives, A’isha included. The marriage between the Prophet (saas) and Khadija (ra) turns over every convention and breaks every stereotype that we so often hold up as sacred, when in fact they are but sacred cows that we have allowed to complicate our lives, to the detriment of so many and in violation of the rights of so many others — like all the women who get turned down for marriage because they’re too old, or previously married, or whatever. [Add to this the fact that he used to sweep the floor, mend his own socks, and do other kinds of domestic chores, “women’s work” they call it. If we would just stick to his sunna (saas) and follow his example, what need would we have for feminism? More poignantly, what need would WOMEN have had for feminism? I have said it many times and believe it firmly, it is very often men themselves who push women into these radical stances because they’ve made their lives so miserable and irredeemable. Is this the type of “man” our religion calls us to be and our Prophet (saas) modeled for us? Hardly!]

        May Allah show us what is true as true and grant that we may follow it, and show us what is false as false and grant that we may avoid it. Ameen!

        Wassalamu ‘alaikum,
        Ahmad B.

      • Amel

        As-salamu Alaykum,
        I’m not sure if you realize it, Ahmad, but some of what you have said in the above comment could be offensive to many people. When you say that Arab men “very often” have their so-called needs taken care of through prostitution or relations with other males, that makes it sound like a cultural norm. While these things may exist (as they do in any society), I do not think the typical Arab Muslim is engaged in such behaviors, and the percentage of people who do these things is probably very small. Most people would look down on that. Also, let’s not lump all Arabs from all countries into a huge monolithic category. People from Algeria are not the same as people in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Jordan, Egypt, etc. Each country has its own culture and set of circumstances that lead people down different paths…and Pakistanis and other South Asians are not somehow better or worse than the people of other nations or cultural backgrounds. Finally, men in the West are still paying for sex with prostitutes, including young girls and women who have been trafficked, and this is becoming more (not less) common.

        Look at the statistics on the following page to get an idea:

        prostitution.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004119

      • Ahmad B.

        Assalamu ‘alaikum Amel,

        Thank you for correcting me. I apologize if I have caused any offense or have crassly overgeneralized. I would be very happy to find out that only a small percentage of men in Arab countries (or in any other Muslim society) practice these behaviors. Anecdotal evidence and written literature to which I have been privy have not given me this impression, but of course there is always the possibility that the picture has been unfairly skewed for one reason or another. If anything, I think it is clear that cultural norms often trump religious values in the sexual realm, including in Muslim societies, and that we all need to work to identify those areas where our different societies and communities fall short of the Islamic norm and endeavor to correct those as best we can. Wa bi-Llahi l-tawfiq.

        Ahmad B.

  29. Jonaid

    Sorry I have to add one point:

    There is a principle in Islam that one does not expose their own faults / sins or the faults / sins of his brother / sister to the public needlessly. It’s a beautiful principle and the idea is to cover up mistakes and shameful acts so as to minimize their impact on society overall (and also as a mercy to the sinner). I don’t think that extends to civilizations. Muslims seem to behave as if they have some sort of a religious obligation to hide the mass corruption rampant in their societies but go on raving about the problems of the “unbelievers.” Our problem is our religious leadership. I strongly believe that. We have mostly incompetent & insincere religious authorities. That much is plain to any objective observer.

    Okay I really am done for now.

    Reply
    • Ahmad B.

      Assalamu ‘alaikum Jonaid,

      I’m not trying to seduce you back into responding (since you’ve said twice now that you’re done for the day), but I did want to make a comment. I agree with everything you’re saying about having to solve our problems rather than hiding and running away from them, about pumping ourselves up at the expense of others, comparing (as pointed out by Sr. Dalia earlier on) “our” ideal to “their” reality, etc. You are right to point out that all of this is just banter, and has much more to do with pride and one upmanship than with concern for living out the Will of God among ourselves and sincerely proclaiming the Truth to all nations (if you allow the somewhat Christian-sounding phraseology). I agree that we Muslims are in a lamentable state and have fallen far short of the high ideals of our religion, and also that, in certain respects, the modern West exemplifies certain Islamic values to a higher degree than we do.

      Nevertheless, going back to the original article — considering that it is written in a satirical mode (and granting all your objections to Daniel’s choosing to respond to Daoud in kind), I think we have lost what HIS larger point in all that was. He’s not promoting a kind of West-bashing, we’re-so-good-and-they’re-so-bad type of engagement (which would be the case if this article were not written specifically in response to another with a very particular purpose in mind), but simply showing that the contemporary West does NOT have the answers when it comes to gender, sexuality, and family, given what has become of Western society in the past 50 years of radical experimentalism on these fronts. The many areas you have pointed out in which the West currently outshines the East do not cancel out the fact that Western societies are currently in complete (and highly unenviable) chaos on the gender, sexuality, and family front — and it just keeps getting more and more bizarre and Twilight zone-like year after year with no apparent end in sight.

      Whatever problems we Muslims also have in these domains, it should be clear to us that the solution lies not in any mindless imitation of the West, but in a closer and more faithful adherence to the true principles of Islam, which has been granted to us mankind by God to guide us all to what is best in both this world and the next. If we fall short, it’s our own fault, but at least we have an objective measuring stick by which to judge that, and an objectively true standard toward which to try to work ourselves back up. And given the relativism and moral chaos of the contemporary West, it should be clear to all that this is, indeed, priceless, and we would be utterly foolish to abandon it for a competing system that has no comparable transcendental moorings.

      Western societies have explicitly (and proudly) repudiated any divine norms or guidance on anything at all — including now matters of personal ethics and sexual mores, which for long remained within the province of religion well after the secularization of many other domains of Western minds, hearts, and societies. The problem in the West is that when you look around at the mess, it’s not possible to even suggest anything like a comprehensive solution because there’s no ultimate standard of judgment. Society just drifts along, making it all up as it goes, according to allegedly “humanistic” principles and an allegedly “rational” calculus of harms and benefits.

      To me, one of the most telling signs of this bottoms-up inanity — and of the rank hubris involved as well — is the legislation of “gay marriage” that’s sweeping across the West (an entirely different topic which has already been adequately debated in the comments to Daniel’s other article, the one on homosexuality where you and I first “met”). A society that does not even have the resources (moral, intellectual, etc.) to defend and uphold the most obvious and basic element of human social life (the natural family unit) — practically universally recognized by mankind throughout history (and despite variations in secondary issues like polygamy, even concubinage, etc.) — certainly has a LOT of soul searching to do, in my opinion. Twenty-five years ago, even gay activists in the US were sure that it would be nearly impossible to convince the public at large to accept such a thing. And just a quarter century later, look where we’ve come. I mean, what’s next, really? I read two months ago that in Brazil I believe it was, three women have recently gotten married in what is that nation’s first legally recognized lesbian polyamorous union. They showed a picture of the three, with all six of their hands on the pregnant belly of the woman in the middle, who was carrying “their” child: Mommy 1, Mommy 2, and Mommy 3. And hey, why not? As long as they have all “consented” to it, what’s the problem?

      Anyway, I do NOT intend to enter a debate about that specific topic here. If we are concerned about Truth and about the welfare of all, as you have rightly been insisting throughout this thread, then we must judiciously critique our own Muslim communities and societies when we fall short of the Divine norm, but also — and with sincerity, humility, and genuine good will — be ready to critique modern Western society as well where it has lost its bearings (and even the principles necessary to maintain those bearings). And I am completely with you that this should never be done in the spirit of tribalism or community pride or contempt for the other, but as a humble, but firm, witness to what is true and right, with the genuine hope of guidance and felicity for all.

      Okay, that’s the end now of my “rant.”

      Wassalam,
      Ahmad B.

      Reply
      • Jonaid

        Salam Alaykum.

        “Nevertheless, going back to the original article — considering that it is written in a satirical mode (and granting all your objections to Daniel’s choosing to respond to Daoud in kind), I think we have lost what HIS larger point in all that was. He’s not promoting a kind of West-bashing, we’re-so-good-and-they’re-so-bad type of engagement (which would be the case if this article were not written specifically in response to another with a very particular purpose in mind), but simply showing that the contemporary West does NOT have the answers when it comes to gender, sexuality, and family, given what has become of Western society in the past 50 years of radical experimentalism on these fronts. The many areas you have pointed out in which the West currently outshines the East do not cancel out the fact that Western societies are currently in complete (and highly unenviable) chaos on the gender, sexuality, and family front — and it just keeps getting more and more bizarre and Twilight zone-like year after year with no apparent end in sight.”

        I want to reiterate that I do not (I can’t know) think Daniel intended this article to come across as West-bashing. It is almost certainly as you said: a satirical response to an apparently Anti-Arab and Anti-Islam article. My larger point is this phenomenon of Muslims being on the defensive always, deliberately seeking out “enemies” who are defaming them and then attacking back, is foolish and destructive and therefore it is our obligation as Muslims to bring an end to this trend. A more appropriate response to Daoud’s article would have been if it were posted and discussed. Does he have anything legitimate to point out in there? If so, how should Muslims respond and handle this situation? How can we prevent such material from repeatedly being printed and pumped out – is it best to attack the writer or to look at his criticisms and make sure we are clean on our end? Why are we being attacked so much? To the extent that it is deliberately misleading, we will employ strategy X to counter that. To the extent that it utilizes actual problems plaguing the Muslim World, we must apply strategy Y to ensure that those problems are resolved, and if not, how we can honestly respond.

        Since you bring up gay marriage, I’ll share my honest opinion on it even though I’m near certain it’ll invite criticism. I’ve discussed this with gay friends am adamant about NOT changing the meanings of original terms. While “marriage” has no clear-cut, universally recognized definition, a few things are universally found – throughout history until very recently – in marriages all across the world. A couple – a man and a woman – are contractually obligated to live together, be faithful to each other, and raise a family together (less a tiny minority who have no children). This formula fits into every form of marriage we have known historically (some include more but none that I’m aware of does not include at least this much). This is the common denominator of marriage. So, the problem with “gay marriage” is that it seeks to change – and thereby render the term “marriage” and its entire history almost meaningless – the original definition to include same gender unions. I believe that in a secular state gay couples should certainly have the right to have their private contracts (I don’t want to call it “marriage contract”) recognized and enforced by law. So a partner should have visitation rights in the hospital, inheritance rights, next of kin etc etc. Call it “civil union” or “civil partnership” or whatever else you want but do not call it “marriage” and do not demand that traditional societies and religious institutions must recognize it. A mosque or a church or any house of worship need not and should not perform gay “nikahs” since they are alien to their tradition. They should not be considered intolerant or bigoted for upholding their values.

        Someguy:

        I agree with you that societies all over the world are going to “satan’s way.” We’ve been foretold this our Prophet (peace be upon him) and it makes perfect sense. When civilizations start they inevitably rely on high empathy and “group first” mentality. If their founding principles are sound, they will succeed in laying the foundation of a prosperous society. Once societies do become prosperous, they eventually – and inevitably – begin to decline as individualism begins to become the primary mode of thinking. It’s just like a parent who works hard their whole life to ensure a comfortable life for their child. The child can never truly appreciate all the hardships their parent went thru. Some will appreciate it but some will be “spoiled” living in luxury. Then of course the chief deceiver is at work and he knows who to make his primary target. He starts with those elements lacking integrity – all you have to do with these is throw a bone at them and make them feel important and they fall. Gradually more and more people go down this road until the entire civilization stagnates and starts to fall apart. We – Muslims and Non-Muslims – are certainly in the latter stage. Does that mean we should become pessimistic and just watch the dominoes fall one after another? Our job is to prolong the inevitable for as long as possible and in so doing we bring in the maximum number of people into God’s mercy. This is also why I have such a “liberal” (certainly off the chart left in the Muslim context) position on gay marriage – given the time and context, this is the most “conservative” and honest approach to this issue.

        God knows best.

      • Jonaid

        The solution – if one exists – to HUMANITY’s problems is for one group to lead the way in moral uprightness, truthfulness and justice. Islam is the Truth but that does not mean Muslims are the truthful. Nonetheless, as believers, we should feel obligated to lead the way and be a model society for even the West to look upon and learn from. The “West” is not some alien world – it consists of human beings just like us. If the influence of Satan is gaining momentum, it’s OUR – Muslims’ job – to help counter that instead of judging and condemning the people. It is for Allah alone to judge individuals.

        God knows best.

    • M.Mahmud

      We also can’t go raving about the problems of the Muslim world and comparing it to where the West gets it better.

      There is a happy middle somewhere.

      Reply
  30. Someguy

    The problem is Muslims, but not Islam. However, any admission of your shortcomings will be seen by kufar as your admission to the shortcomings of Islam. This is connotation I.have seen.being made countless times, they always.need an excuse.to down.play Islam. Islam is the only philisophy and way of.life that continues to.challenge and provide an alternative method to satanized western philosophy. Therefore, Islam.needs to.be tainted, mocked, and proven.to.be inferior. Whats the soulution to the problems of Muslim lands? Islam, but you sell out.muslims wont let real Islam be estaished in Muslim lands, and what we have now is imperialy imposed mock democracies led and supported.by so called sell out enlightened muslims. Its time to save yourselves and your families, societies are all going satans way wherher muslim majority or not, as prophesizesd by prophet muhammed may.allahs.blessings.be upon him. Societies will only become more corrupt from here on out to judgement day, you can take that to the bank, scholars are representative of their societies and not going to.be dropped from.heaven like.angels. West has.become society, why wouldnt it.when.there.is.a whole generation being raised bman hating single.women.

    Reply
  31. Rob.e.d

    How about judging and confessing your own sins before God, instead of counting the transgressions of others. Yes capitalist imperialism is degrading the entire planet through its greed… But as a messianic believer from the west, i can declare that many believers here are greatly distressed by the moral decline our culture is experiencing. Thanks to modern day corporate propaganda and its brainwashing of the masses for profit at the expense of our national conscience. But What about mercy and love for your neighbors as Jesus taught. Instead of judging each other why not pray for one another. Pull the log out of your own eye before you try and take the splinter out of your neighbors. These matters concern the entire world not just north America. These companies are monsters that now control the entire earth and their polluting essence will affect us all. Sin has always been a global problem… it was not invented in the West.

    Reply
    • Jonaid

      Salam Alaykum (Peace be upon you) Rob,

      Well said – I agree with you and appreciate your sincerity. Sin has been and is indeed a global problem. There are different manifestations of sin and it takes a different shape in different civilizations throughout history. The secular West just happens to be in the lead insofar as the content of this article is concerned. Nonetheless, I don’t believe the author meant this to primarily be an attack on the breakdown of family values in the West but rather a defensive rebuttal to a similar article attacking the Arab World.

      May God guide us and have mercy on us all.

      Reply
      • Damascus Girl

        Is there a reason why a muslim must be defensive about criticisms regarding the Arab world? Arab does not necessarily equal Muslim. The US invasion of Iraq was horrific, but so is the Saudi assault on Yemen. This is just one example — Muslims really don’t have the right to take the high road when it comes to issues of morality, violence and respect for women. Even a recent attempt at instituting laws for women in Pakistan who have been assaulted, raped or subjected to child marriage has been struck down as contrary to Islam. So a child can be forced to undergo Nikkah and sexual intercourse in Pakistan but the west is sexual repugnant…..

      • Mahmud

        Just because someone passed a law claiming it will protect women doesn’t mean they were telling the truth or that those who threw it down were somehow evil Muslim mysogynists for rejecting it. The law has to be examined to see whether it truly fulfills its purpose or not. Child marriage is not haram in Islam so any restrictions taking place require a lot of judicial insight.

  32. why

    this is ridiculous. I moved from Saudi to Pakistan and then to Canada. Every country I’ve lived in has had entitled terrible men who felt like my body was theirs to do what they chose to. I was twelve years old in Saudi, covered from head to toe, when my first experience of a man putting his hands on my body happened. And that was not the last time, and it didn’t matter what i was wearing, whether i was doing tawaf in the haram or in a club in Canada. None of it mattered to these men.

    Sexual assault is not unique to the west. It’s a problem with a root in PATRIARCHAL NORMS that tell men they are entitled to women’s bodies, that tell women that their worth is tied up in their sexuality [either via sexual purity in the east or sexual liberation in the west].

    Reply
    • Damascus Girl

      Very true. I was groped as a 20yr old in Pakistan while shopping in a bazaar with my parents. I man just walked by me in the crowded market and decided to reach out with his hand into my private area. It last a millisecond because i was walking behind my father and kept walking. I will never go back to that country, ever. A man like that will never be pushed under islamic law but if it happened here then I could easily scream for help, call the police and have that man arrested for sexual assault.

      Reply
      • Ahmad B.

        Damascus girl,

        Please watch what you say about “Islamic Law.” Where do you get that Islamic Law somehow allows for groping on the street or would not allow for Muslim governments to pass measures officially criminalizing this behavior? I agree fully that the behavior of some (many?) men in the Muslim world is atrocious, but all of that is in violation of Islamic principles, law, and morality, so please don’t blame the religion for this. Islamic Law — and Islamic ethical principles more generally — can easily be rallied to the service of women in trying to minimize these types of incidents in the Muslim world.

        Wassalam,
        Ahmad B.

      • Damascus Girl

        I just want to make clear, to address Ahmed B’s point, that the discussion on this website is not about Islamic legislation or what is enshrined in the Quran. The discussion is about the practices and attitudes of present-day Muslims and Muslim communities. I have researched this matter and can tell you that there is nothing in Pakistani or afghani laws — muslim nations led by muslim men — that punish a man who gropes a female who is not his wife. There are no support networks for such women in Muslim countries. And so-called Sharia-based laws will assume the woman is lying unless she produces 4 witnesses who saw the groping. Well, most young girls are not going to run around and do an investigation to find 4 witnesses.

  33. Damascus Girl

    I am embarrassed that this article was even published. Someone insults the Arab world, and a muslim must seek revenge by writing something 10 times more vitriolic and insulting. Many Muslims are “wesrerners” so you are basically insulting your own brethren. More importantly, it’s a bit rich to say that the “west” is a firepit due to its repulsive sexual mores, without acknowledging that Muslim immigration to the west has been abd continues to be a worldwide phenomenon.
    Instead of attacking western women and their sexual it, why not address what Daud is saying? If you honestly believe that women are treated well in Muslim countries, if you honestly believe that infidelity, polygamy, rape, divorce, sexual repression, genital mutilation DO NOT exist in Muslim lands, then cite your sources and describe how Muslim women are far safer and protected in Muslim lands. But you can’t do that because such statistics don’t exist. Much of what Daud says is correct. The assaults that occurred during the revolution were horrific, and having traveled myself in Egypt many years ago I can say that at times I feared for my life due to the lecherous stares and advances by Arab men whole I was doing such simple things as shopping or taking a stroll down a busy street. The best thing for Muslims is to leave their cultural tribes behind and start focusing on what is wrong within their own societies rather than finding everything wrong with “western” societies. Stop telling your fellow Muslims they will go to hell — that’s n I t your job. Another commenter here called a fellow commenter “kaffir” — that is so wrong on so many levels. Let’s focus on what is wrong within islamic communities. There are a lot of Muslim matrimonial websites out there where Muslim women have been duped by married Muslim men looking for a side – wife — of course they can have a quickie Nikkah beforehand but the man won’t leave his existing family or first wife. Divorce in Muslim communities is rampant. Divorced women and women over 40 have almost zero chances of getting married. Being single yiur whole life, and celibate, is not easy and islamic communities will do nothing to help women. If a women is raped there is ostracizarion rather than live and support. I’ve seen so many Muslim men with girlfriends, sexual partners, alcohol….and then they have Nikkah with either the western girlfriend or a sweet virginal Muslim chosen by mummy. Yet this article talks about none of these matters.

    The age of “tit for tat” is over. If you wish to write responsible articles that elicit respect by the non Muslim world whole also finding constructive solutions for the Muslim world, then “revenge writing” must stop.

    Reply
    • Stardusty Psyche

      “If you wish to write responsible articles that elicit respect by the non Muslim world…”

      I respect your writing very much, Damascus Girl.

      If you are an American I wish to say I am happy you are my fellow American. If not, I would gladly welcome you to travel and live here because I think Trump is a fool to generalize 1.6 billion people.

      I am sure I disagree with you on a variety of particular points and the tenets of Islam, but that is not a problem, since I appreciate a thoughtful challenge to my views, and you obviously make an effort to see both sides of an issue to honestly evaluate the good and the bad on both sides. I respect that very much indeed.

      Reply
    • Mahmud

      This revenge writing is awesome and part of obedience to Allah and His Messenger insha Allah because it is jihad against the kuffar and munafiqoon.

      It is very contstructive and a means forward. I applaud the author for this well written piece in opposition to Kamal’s article which was like verbal harassment.

      Reply
  34. Khadijah

    Sadly the only place I have ever been sexually harassed was Damascus (many years ago before the civil war) while wearing full abaya walking to school (I was 21 studying Arabic). Rape probably happens just as much in the Middle East but it’s less likely to be reported. The sexualisation of women is a worldwide problem but it surfaces in different ways in different places.

    Reply
    • Khadijah

      By sadly I means it’s sad that it was Damascus since I loved it there. Typo I meant “sadly the place I was sexually harassed was Damascus”

      Reply
  35. Aziza

    It is only the fear of Allah and that we muslim will have to face Him kn the day of judgement that will keep us on the straight path and out of this rot. Read clean and inspiring literature like blossomsmag an online magazine.
    http://www.blossomsmag.com

    Reply
  36. Showket Ahmad

    The misery produced by authoritarian Christian intrusions into the sex lives of non-Christians, Christianity produces great misery among its own adherents through its insistence that sex (except the very narrow variety it sanctions) is evil, against God’s law. Christianity proscribes sex between unmarried people, sex outside of marriage, homosexual relations, bestiality, and even “impure” sexual thoughts. Indulging in such things can and will, in the conventional Christian view, lead straight to hell.

    Given that human beings are by nature highly sexual beings, and that their urges very often do not fit into the only officially sanctioned Christian form of sexuality (monogamous, heterosexual marriage), it’s inevitable that those who attempt to follow Christian “morality” in this area are often miserable, as their strongest urges run smack dab into the wall of religious belief. This is inevitable in Christian adolescents and unmarried young people in that the only “pure” way for them to behave is celibately—in the strict Christian view, even masturbation is prohibited. Phillip Roth has well described the dilemma of the religiously/sexually repressed young in Portnoy’s Complaint as “being torn between desires that are repugnant to my conscience and a conscience repugnant to my desires.” Thus the years of adolescence and young adulthood for many Christians are poisoned by “sinful” urges, unfulfilled longings, and intense guilt (after the urges become too much to bear and are acted upon).

    Even after Christian young people receive a license from church and state to have sex, they often discover that the sexual release promised by marriage is not all that it’s cracked up to be. One gathers that in marriages between those who have followed Christian rules up until marriage—that is, no sex at all—sexual ineptitude and lack of fulfillment are all too common. Even when Christian married people do have good sexual relations, the problems do not end. Sexual attractions ebb and flow, and new attractions inevitably arise. In conventional Christian relationships, one is not allowed to act on these new attractions. One is often not even permitted to admit that such attractions exist. As Sten Linnander puts it, “with traditional [Christian] morality, you have to choose between being unfaithful to yourself or to another.”

    The dilemma is even worse for gay teens and young people in that Christianity never offers them release from their unrequited urges. They are simply condemned to lifelong celibacy. If they indulge their natural desires, they become “sodomites” subject not only to Earthly persecution (due to Christian-inspired laws), but to being roasted alive forever in the pit. Given the internalized homophobia Christian teachings inspire, not to mention the very real discrimination gay people face, it’s not surprising that a great many homosexually oriented Christians choose to live a lie. In most cases, this leads to lifelong personal torture, but it can have even more tragic results.

    A prime example is Marshall Applewhite, “John Do,” the guru of the Heaven’s Gate religious cult. Applewhite grew up in the South in a repressive Christian fundamentalist family. Horrified by his homosexual urges.

    Reply

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