More updates:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071104/ap_on_re_as/pakistan

Fighting like a true dictator… and how appropriately done in the name of fighting terrorism

[quote]Really, I say shut down the whole democracy charade in Pakistan. Just install an American governer there and do the imperialistic thing properly. Everyone knows it already, so why make it so complicated?[quote/]

Like seriously!

Another shameful chapter in Pakistan’s checkered history.

Whoa! Amad, do we count you among those Muslims who think establishing Pakistan as a Muslim state independent from India was and is a mistake?

“China should take over Pakistan.”

Sounds like great advice I don’t think.

“Fuming about the problems of a country half-way across the globe seems to be of little benefit.”

Couldn’t agree more! Maybe we should realise why we have such leaders in the first place instead of ranting and raving about it, and after we come to know the reason why we should come to learn the Prophet methodology in changing our situation.

Whoa! Amad, do we count you among those Muslims who think establishing Pakistan as a Muslim state independent from India was and is a mistake

No.

Maybe we should realise why we have such leaders in the first place instead of ranting and raving about it,

As someone with parents in Pakistan and having been born there, I think I have some right to “rant and rave” about what is happening in my original homeland. I agree Allah gives people the leader they deserve, but it doesn’t mean that we should sit tight and bemoan our misfortune.

Fuming about the problems of a country half-way across the globe seems to be of little benefit.

Think globally, act locally: That seems a much better strategy.

Blogs think and act. This post was the thinking part :) Benefit is a relative thing… we just do the things we feel are right, and then leave it to Allah. If there is one thing that the post can generate, let’s say just a dua’ to Allah to make things better for Pakistan and to remove this dictator, I would consider the post to have had a lot of benefit then.

Just install an American governer there and do the imperialistic thing properly. …I agree Allah gives people the leader they deserve, but it doesn’t mean that we should sit tight and bemoan our misfortune…Blogs think and act. This post was the thinking part

Are you volunteering, Amad? And what is it exactly that you would do? Why stop thinking now?

Dear AnonyMouse

The Prophet (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) also said:

“Whoever desires to advise the Sultan (authority) about a matter, then he must not expose it in public, but rather he should take him by his hand and go in privacy with him. So if he accepts (the advice) then that is (reward) for him, and if he doesn’t (accept) then he has conveyed what will be held against him.” (Ahmad, 3/404, Ibn Abee ‘Aasim also reported it in his book As-Sunnah, 2/522)

This hadeeth qualifies the one that you cited in that the “truthful word spoken to an oppressive ruler” is as per the above hadeeth, “in privacy”, and Allaah knows best!

Was-salaamu ‘alaikum

Aboo Uthmaan

Dear AnonyMouse

It is not the advisors job to make the advisee accept his advice, all that is upon him is to convey. If the advisee does not accept the advice of the advisor does this necessitate that the advisor abandons the advice of the Prophet (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam)?

Was-salaamu ‘alaikum

Aboo Uthmaan

Walaikum salaam wa rahmatullaah Talib

Yes, there is no obedience to the creation if it means disobedience to Allaah.

In Soorah Luqman Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta’aala) has ordered us to be dutiful to our parents, but…

“…if they (both) strive with you to make you join in worship with Me others that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not, but behave with them in the world kindly, and follow the path of him who turns to Me in repentance and in obedience. Then to Me will be your return, and I shall tell you what you used to do.” (Luqman 31:15)

In this ayah we see learn that if our parents order us with disobedience to Allaah we should not obey them in that, yet we should still give them their rights. So if a person orders us with disobedience to our Creator it does not necessitate that we then forgo that persons rights; rather, we disobey him in that but still uphold his rights.

In other words, not obeying someone when they order us with disobedience to Allaah is one thing and speaking out against the leader is another.

Was-salaamu ‘alaikum

Aboo Uthmaan

I recently heard a shkh quote a hadeeth that we should not fight the leader if he fulfills his salah. Can anyone confirm this?

Walaikum salaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh

Dear Talib

I personally think you are reading something into the quotation you cited that simply is not there. I say this because what you have insinuated is in complete contradiction to the numerous ahaadeeth on the said issue.

Was-salaamu ‘alaikum

Aboo Uthmaan

I suppose every ruler can be considered an “American puppet”, the question here being debated is to what degree. But does anybody squarely address the question Amad hinted at, “Why not drop the puppet and simply become another extension of America?”

As-salaamu ‘alaikum

Dear Br. Amad

Imaam Muhammad ibn ‘Abdul-Wahhab said:

“The Imaams from each Madhhab are unanimous that whoever overtakes a country or countries (seizes power) is entitled to assume the same rulership as the Imaam in all affairs. Were it not so, the affairs of this worldly life would not be upright. And for a long time, since before the time of Imaam Ahmad (rahimahullaah) and until our time, people were not in agreement upon one Imaam, and they have no account of a scholar stating that the validity of (the applicability) of any of the rulings (of Sharee’ah) is conditional upon the presence of the Greater Imaam.” (Ad-Durar as-Saniyyah, 7/239)

However, I will wait to see what feedback you get.

Jazak’Allaahu khairan!

Was-salaamu ‘alaikum

Aboo Uthmaan

The quote you mentioned from Sh. Muhammad b. Abd al-Wahhab is about the legitimiacy of the ruler, which is a different issue from correcting the ruler in public.

For that, the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) mandated that they not be fought or revolted against by the sword unless they commit clear disbelief (kufr bawaah).

As-salaamu ‘alaikum

Br. Abu Bakr

Yes, I know, I posted it because Br. Amad said:

“I believe you are taking rules concerning a legitimate khalifa and applying it to the wrong situation, i.e. the two issues are not apples to apples.”

I understood by this that Br. Amad understands that obedience to the ruler doesn’t apply to the one who is not a “legitimate” caliph or the greater Imaam if you like.

Was-salaamu ‘alaikum

Aboo Uthmaan

In all truth, the hadith’s status is disputed, however it has only two routes, both of which have multiple deficiencies and cannot strengthen one another. And Allah knows best.

As for the statements of the Salaf prohibiting open objection to the Ameer (whether the Khalifah or some other lesser authority), this seems to be because of the fitnah that will result, and not due to some absolute prohibition, and Allah knows best.

Abu Bakr, if the hadith’s status is disputed, why did you promote it uncritically at first? Don’t you think great damage could be done if someone acted without critical knowledge and thinking?

Solomon2,

I think you misunderstood, I was not promoting the hadith in the least. I was quoting a hadith cited by Aboo Uthmaan, and I commented that it is weak.

As-salaamu ‘alaikum

Dear Br. Abu Bakr

I think it is somewhat unfair to say it is weak; would it not have been better to say that it is disputed? From what I understand the hadeeth has three different chains of which one is Saheeh, another is Saheeh li-Ghayrihi, I do not know about the third one.

Was-salaamu ‘alaikum

Aboo Uthmaan

As-salaamu ‘alaikum

I would like to think that you are talking about my blog and its colour scheme. :-)

As-salaamu ‘alaikum

Dear Br. Amad

If you do not wish to provide the name of the scholar that you asked or if he doesn’t wish to be known or have what he said attributed to him (in public) then that is fine. I merely asked so we would know who it is that we are taking our knowledge from. You believe it is not necessary to mention names; rather, you believe that what is important is to talk about the issue we are discussing if I have “issue” with it. With that in mind there is no need to go off on a tangent and make assumptions as to who I believe the “net-sum of world’s scholars” are, it simply carried little relevance to the our point of discussion.

There are numerous statements from the early Muslims about obeying the leader, be he just or oppressive, be he appointed or someone who seized power by force, whether the people pleased with him or not. There are plenty of examples throughout history of corrupt, unjust and oppressive rulers who would also oppose the Sharee’ah, kill Muslims and take their wealth, yet we find from the scholars (who lived during those times) statements forbidding the Muslims from rising up against them. One example of this is when a group of people came to al-Hasan al-Basree and asked him for permission to revolt against al-Hajjaaj.

What I am trying to say is that this issue is not knew, we already have a precedence set and furthermore we have instructions from our Prophet (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) a plenty pertaining to such situations and how we should be in them. So unless you or the scholar you asked consider President Musharraf a kaafir then as strange as it may seem to some, the texts still apply.

Civil protests, now that could lead us on to another topic, the issue of the validity of “protesting”, not that I wish to discuss that and prolong this thread by taking it off in another direction, albeit intertwined along the way. What I will say though is that such “protests” lead to violence, as we have seen, and many innocent civilians are often killed whilst engaging in such activities.

Your brother

Was-salaamu ‘alaikum

Aboo Uthmaan

The image or concept the muslims in india 60 years ago was right…. but the leaders were corrupt. Plain and simple pakistan as it is right now is a mistake and isn’t what the normal person back then imagined to be so.

Asalamulaaykum
Prophet (s) said
Whoever wants to give nasihah to the sultan on a matter, then he should not do so in public, but he should take him by hand to where he is alone with him. If he accepts it from him, then that is that, if not then he has done what is required of him ( ahmed and others.Al albani graded it shahe)
For futher reading on this matter refer to
Hadiths Needed by those who talk of manhaj

The Defining Characteristic of Ahl’l-Sunnah wa’l-Jamā‘ah during Fitnah
http://alternativeentertainment.wordpress.com/2007/11/09/the-defining-characteristic-of-ahl%e2%80%99l-sunnah-wa%e2%80%99l-jama%e2%80%98ah-during-fitnah/

an interesting article

http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/why-bhutto-would-be-bad-for-business/2007/11/09/1194329506955.html

Assalam Alaikum,

Living in Pakistan and getting much more information than what’s leaked out to the (international) news, I strongly believe that Musharraf is either on the verge of becoming non-Muslim or is already non-Muslim. Most probably a munafiq.

Last time when Musharraf came to Karachi during his speech, he closed the Masajid in his area and stopped the Azaan from being given.

Musharraf’s government openly supports the Sufis and they are the only ‘religious’ elements that support him. Pakistan’s Sufis are not like those of America. Here they have committed shirk in word and deed many, many times. Even the ordinary practicing Muslim(who is unfortunately very ignorant) admits they are not in line with Islamic Aqeedah and actions.

About killings, he has not only killed innocent civilians but has left his own soldiers to die. He is using Shia/Sunni rivalry to kill his own soldiers and much more.

These are some of the reasons I personally consider him not to be part of the definition of Sultan.

Also, about the scholars. There are a large number of Ulema in Pakistan who openly speak against him. I’m talking about the knowledgeable ones, not the average ‘Maulana’.