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Pakistani Independence Day: Is Pakistan Really Independent?


By J.Hashmi

Pakistani Flag

The fourteenth of August was technically the Pakistani day of independence, but Pakistanis found little to celebrate this year; many citizens expressed their fear that their independence is gradually but surely being eroded away by American interventionism in the region.

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Just a few days ago, the Americans announced that there was a high probability that the CIA had killed Baitullah Mehsud, the leader of the Pakistani Taliban. Certainly not many Pakistanis will shed tears over the Taliban’s slain leader: recent polls indicate that support for the Taliban in Pakistan has dropped to less than five percent.. In fact, the majority of Pakistanis (80%) view the Taliban as a crucial threat to their country, and a similar number (78%) support their own government’s military campaign against the Pakistani Taliban. One would think then that Pakistanis would be grateful to the Americans for eliminating the top Taliban official in their country.

But such is not the case. In fact, the Pakistani populace stews in anger over what–according to international law–was an American attack against Pakistan. The United States ignored Pakistan’s sovereignty and initiated drone attacks on independent Pakistani soil, something which constitutes an act of war. This is of course the latest in a series of drone attacks on sovereign Pakistani territory; there have been over “60 cross-border predator strikes carried out by the Afghanistan-based American drones in Pakistan between January 14th, 2006 and April 8, 2009.” Even more damning is the fact that “only 10 were able to hit their actual targets, killing 14 wanted al-Qaeda leaders,” whereas on the other hand the drones have killed “687 innocent Pakistani civilians,” giving the US predator strikes a success rate of “not more than six percent.” (link)

Unfortunately, few Americans are introspective enough to ask: “how would we Americans feel if some Muslim government did the same to us?” For example, what would be the American reaction if the Iraqi government initiated drone attacks against Blackwater facilities in North Carolina? If the Americans are justified in striking against Baitullah Mehsud, who has never killed a single American, then would not Iraqis be justified in striking against Erik Prince, the Blackwater CEO responsible for massacres against Iraqi citizenry? But when the shoe is on the other foot, many Americans reject any “moral equivalency;” no American would tolerate another country launching missiles into sovereign U.S. territory, even if it be directed against criminals and murderers. We are quite capable of prosecuting our own, would be the prevalent American response. Yet, why is it then that the Americans cannot seem to understand that the Pakistanis want their own government to deal with militants in their country, not foreigners with a long history of what is viewed by some as neo-colonialism?

Can one imagine the American reaction if some foreign Muslim sounding country launched missiles into America that killed 687 American civilians, including women and children? There would be rage in the American eyes, and cries to “bomb them back into the stone age.” There would be a savage and absurdly disproportionate retaliation from the Americans. But suddenly when Americans kill 687 Pakistani civilians, then so what? Are brown lives really equal to those of Americans?

To add to the absurdity, some American neoconservatives had the gall to criticize the Pakistani “ingratitude:” after all, these hawks argued, shouldn’t Pakistan be thankful to America for getting rid of the Taliban’s top official in the country? If anyone were to attack American soil, these neoconservatives would be outraged–and they would call to bomb some country (any country!) back to the stone age–whereas Pakistanis should not only be silent about the same transgression, but send a thank you card.

Some Americans have tried to justify the drone attacks by arguing that the Pakistani government gave them the wink and nod, unofficially giving the Americans permission to launch these strikes. Yet the reality is that the Pakistani government has repeatedly issued official and unofficial statements categorically rejecting such fanciful claims.

The Pakistani foreign office issued the following statement: “It has been Pakistan’s consistent position that drone attacks are in violation of its sovereignty and must be stopped.” (link) A spokesman for the Pakistani military, Major Murad Khan, even went so far as to vow retaliation should America strike within Pakistani borders. Khan warned: “Border violations by US-led forces in Afghanistan, which have killed scores of Pakistani civilians, would no longer be tolerated, and we have informed them that we reserve the right to self defense and that we will retaliate if the US continues cross-border attacks.” (link)

The Pakistani government’s stance did not change after the strike against Baitullah Mehsud, as evidenced by a statement released after the attack:

No Drone Accord with US: FO

Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit said…drone attacks had caused more damage than benefit to Pakistan…No accord existed between Pakistan and the US with regard to drone attacks, he said.


Former president of Pakistan, Parvez Musharraf, rejected claims that he had an agreement with the United States, saying: “There was no such agreement. There was no permission for outside forces to operate inside Pakistan.” (link)

In 2007, the Foreign Office spokesperson, Tasnim Aslam, reiterated:

“We have stated in the clearest terms that any attack inside our territory would be unacceptable…We are committed [to fighting terrorism] and we will take firm action on the basis of information gathered by us through our own means or concrete and actionable intelligence shared with us…We are therefore, combating terrorism in our own interest. We do not want our efforts to be undermined by any ill-conceived action from any quarter that is inconsistent with the principles of international law.”


Amazingly, some of the Americans will continue to insist that the Pakistani government is just placating its own constituents, and that in reality they have given the green light to the Americans. Once again, these same Americans would categorically reject this logic if it were used by anyone else. Can one imagine Russia justifying an assault on Georgia by claiming that despite the Georgian denials, the Georgians had secretly sanctioned the Russian intervention in order to quell rebels and terrorists? Or perhaps Israel could invade Lebanon, claiming that the Lebanese government secretly requested its help against Hezbollah. Such sort of justification would completely destroy any semblance of international law.

Americans claim that they wish to spread democracy. Do they think it wise then to launch such strikes in Pakistan, even though an overwhelming majority (81%) of Pakistanis oppose U.S. missile strikes within their country? Is this how American democracy works? As Malcolm X said: “You and I have never seen democracy; all we’ve seen is hypocrisy.”

The American strikes within Pakistan destroy Pakistan’s credibility as a nation-state, call to question its sovereignty and hegemony, and bring it one step closer to becoming a failed state. It has stirred up feelings of resentment against America and the West in general, which do nothing but fuel the rise of fundamentalism and extremism.  The death of hundreds of Pakistanis as a result of U.S. drone attacks serves to boost Taliban recruitment.  The Pakistanis feel a great deal of shame and humiliation over the blatant U.S. encroachment on their country’s sovereignty; one cannot help but recall a similar sense of shame and humiliation that overcame Germans after the Allied Powers placed severe restrictions on their country’s sovereignty. It was this same sense of helplessness that allowed Adolf Hitler to throw aside the inept and incompetent Weimar Republic, promising the people to restore the country’s hegemony and honor. If a government cannot safeguard a country’s sovereignty, then what right does it have to rule the people? Similar questions will be asked by fundamentalists and extremists, who will use it as a recruiting tool to agitate against the government.

The Pakistani fear of American influence in the region is further exacerbated by the news that the U.S. is planning on massively expanding its embassy in Islamabad. It is estimated that the embassy will cost a whopping $736 million, rivaling that of the gargantuan U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, which cost $740 million. Such massive compounds serve not simply as embassies but as military bases, and remind Pakistanis of the British trading posts established by the East Indian Company that preceded British colonial rule. Indeed, the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad was the control center for U.S. rule over Iraq; Pakistanis fear a similar fate with the creation of such a compound on Pakistani territory. The nonchalance with which Americans flout Pakistani sovereignty gives Pakistanis little reason not to fear growing American interference.

The embassy cum military base will house U.S. marines. The exact number of marines is unknown, and Washington insists that it won’t be more than a “couple of dozens.” Yet, the American government has allocated a staggering $112.5 million for the residential complex for Marines inside the embassy. Unless the “couple of dozens” of Marines plan on living in a palace, it is safe to say that the building would easily accommodate hundreds–if not thousands–of marines. The Pakistani Foreign Office Spokesman, Abdul Basit Khan, mentioned that some one thousand U.S. marines will be stationed there.

One recalls a similar situation in Saudi Arabia. Thousands of U.S. troops were stationed in the Arabian Peninsula, despite the local population’s opposition. It was in fact the issue that caused Usama bin Ladin to choose the “interesting” career path that he did. Islamic militants and extremists used the foreign deployment of troops in the birthplace of Islam as a recruitment tool. Is it not then foreseeable–nay, inevitable–that militants and extremists in Pakistan will use the heightened American presence in the country as a means to recruit fighters and agitate against the lackey Pakistani government?

Pakistanis know all too well that if they give an inch to the U.S., the Americans will take a mile. If in the first year, a few dozen soldiers station themselves in Pakistan, in subsequent years that number will double and triple and multiply many-fold. After all, it took decades for U.S. troops to leave Saudi Arabia, who stayed behind long after Saudis needed protection against Saddam. Pakistanis do not want a monstrous U.S. embassy cum base in their lands, for they know it will be the command center from which the Americans will micromanage the country. The Americans themselves have echoed a similar tone; an American diplomat “reassured” Pakistanis: “When you have got non-military and economic assistance going up to $1.5 billion every year and the security aid almost trebling, then you need people [Americans] to develop, implement and run the programmes and, more importantly, keep an oversight to ensure that money is appropriately spent.” (link)

The celebrity turned politician Imran Khan asked:

“The [Pakistani] government keeps begging the US for more dollars stating that the war is costing the country more than the money it is receiving from the US. If it is our war, then fighting it should not be dependent on funds and material flowing from the US. If it is our war, why do we have no control over it? If it is our war, then why is the US government asking us to do more?”


Pakistanis feel that America is forcing Pakistan to go against its own national interest by fighting a war at the behest of America (which is why Imran Khan famously said “this is America’s war, not Pakistan’s.”) Admittedly, unlike Mr. Khan, most Pakistanis want their government to take a forceful stance against the Pakistani Taliban, but they don’t want Pakistan to be puppeteered by America. The United States has become the school bully, declaring that it can bomb Pakistani land at will, whilst still demanding that Pakistanis eagerly respond to the American jihad against the Taliban; hundreds of Pakistani soldiers die fighting a war that oftentimes serves the American self-interest, not the Pakistani national interest. The American puppeteers have decided that the remote control they had from Washington was not good enough; now they want to move into Islamabad in order to exert even more influence.

On the sixty-second annual celebration of Pakistan’s independence, Pakistanis question how much independence they still have. The collectively wonder: how far off is the country from simply becoming a sock-puppet?

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  1. Ibrahim

    August 16, 2009 at 10:14 PM

    This is MUSLIMmatters…why Pakistan’s “indepenence day” is being highlighted with this post? What about Iraq, Afghanistan, Malaysia, Egypt, Syria, Saudi, etc, etc??

    • MM Associates

      August 16, 2009 at 10:20 PM

      Wa alaykum as-salam, brother Ibrahim.

      The answer to your question is quite simple: I have lived in Pakistan, not any of the other countries. Hence, I am more familiar with Pakistan as opposed to the other countries you listed.

      Additionally, I already wrote an article on Palestine, and I have one in the pipeline about Iraq.

      Lastly, Pakistan is also a Muslim country. :)

      May Allah [swt] reward you, bro. I know you only have the best of intentions, and I also agree that we should make sure to focus on issues that affect the entire Muslim world, not just where we (or our parents) come from.


      • Uncle Tom

        August 17, 2009 at 9:37 PM

        Pakistan is not a muslim country bro. (was never meant to me)
        Pakistan is a muslim populated country…

        • MM Associates

          August 18, 2009 at 12:52 AM

          I clearly said “Muslim country,” not “Islamic country.” Muslim country and Muslim populated country clearly mean the same thing.

          As to whether or not Pakistan was mean to be Islamic or not, this is a hotly debated topic, and not as simple as some understand it to be.


          • Mezba

            August 18, 2009 at 9:16 AM

            It is quite alright for it to be in Muslim Matters because majority of Pakistan’s people are Muslims and since they are being affected, we should talk about it. Similarly we should do a post on India’s HUGE muslim community and how discriminated they are in India.

            Having said that, Jinnah has said it on record that Pakistan is to be a country for all her citizens, not Muslims alone. So it is wrong to term Pakistan as a “muslim” country.

        • Faheem Mirza

          September 23, 2009 at 9:10 AM

          Uncle this is your misunderstanding because of the some bastard Bureaucrats & Politicians which are willing to be the yes men of West for their personal interests in the form of their business or bank accounts in western countries Being a Muslim it is our basic faith that PAKISTAN IS BUILT FOR ISLAM AND TO SECURE THE INTERESTS OF MUSLIM UMMAH.If you are willing to do any debate then you can do it so through E.mail service. My email address is
          Uncle Tom

    • Rameez

      August 28, 2009 at 4:01 PM

      I strongly oppose your headline statement that this year we did not ahve anything to celebrate because of American involvement in the ergion.

      We are losing our freedoma nd our country because of our own broythers – Taliban and Al Queda and people who are misled by them and the Generals who destroyed and exploited the country. Dont blame just on Americans!

  2. Sirat

    August 17, 2009 at 7:04 AM

    The fact that the pakistani govt has done nothing in terms of action to stop the drone attacks makes one feel that they are complicit in this crime along with the americans.

    This corrupt regime & its members will be accountable to Allah (swt) on the day of judgment for all the people they killed, the millions they displaced, and the resources of the country that they stole.

    Its the same sad story every where you look in the muslim world.

  3. lucield

    August 17, 2009 at 11:04 AM

    In your article you state how Pakistan doesnt support the drone attacks….. they dont support AMERICA conducting the drone attacks.

    Pakistan once gain seeks US drone technology
    Updated at: 1830 PST, Monday, August 17, 2009
    ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani Monday once again called upon the US to provide drone technology to Pakistan and demanded an end to the predator strikes within its territory.

    US special envoy to Pakistan and Afghanistan Richard Holbrooke met with the Prime Minister here at PM house where Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Interior Minister Rehman Malik, State Minister for Finance Hina Rabbani Khar, US ambassador Ann W Patterson and other officials were also present.

    The Prime Minister was of the view that drone attacks are a cause of concern for Pakistan as it is difficult to identify the terrorists present among the civilians.

    He argued that the US should provide the drone technology to Pakistan so that its own army can take action against the militants.

    The ongoing army operation in Swat has the backing of the parliament, political, and religious leadership and civil society besides the media.

    The Prime Minister appreciated the formation of task force by US president Barack Obama for helping Pakistan overcome its energy crisis.

    Richard Holbrooke on the occasion said he is impressed with the success of military operation in Malakand and paid tributes to the armed forces.

    He assured that US will provide full assistance to Pakistan for rehabilitation of the IDPs.

  4. Manas Shaikh

    August 17, 2009 at 12:11 PM

    If only we could start loving each other, again, for God’s sake.

    • Umm Lubaabah

      September 2, 2009 at 6:43 PM

      asalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah,

      when will this assabiyyah and qoumiyyah be free from this ummah?! we should fear Allah(ta’alla) and learn to differentiate between the hizb of Ar Rahmaan and the hizb of Shaytaan. we should fear Allah in our brothers in pakistan , the Taliban and other mujahideen in the country and neighboring pakistan. the government of Pakistan is not an islamic government and is a democratic/dictatorship where kufr laws and the rules of the Devil is implemented.i am not pakistani and the issue in pakistan is not a “pakistani” problem, it is a problem with the whole ummah and Allah will ask us all concerning our brothers and sisters everywhere.we have entered the month of ramadhan, the month of duaa rahmaa,maghfeera, itq mina naar and lets not forget , the month of jihaad.did we forget that the battle of badr took place in this blessed month,the conquest of Al Andalus,Ain Jaloot, and other battles took place in this month. lets fear Allah and not forget the Ummah of Muhammad in our most sincerest duaa.

      Umm Lubaabah

  5. Manas Shaikh

    August 17, 2009 at 12:23 PM

    The article is fair, for the most part. Except that it does not discuss what is happening inside Pakistan and the establishment.

    It is important to have a vision to actually achieve it. One wishes that Pakistan becomes a peaceful, stout, prosperous and developed, in a environment-friendly way, country. I believe that this will ultimately unite the Will of the country.

    One would think that according to the Indian establishment, it is considered a crime to be a well-wisher of Pakistan, but I will commit that crime, and wish Pakistan best. That does not lessen my goodwill for my country at all. India’s animosity towards Pakistan is hurting only itself.

  6. Pakistani

    August 17, 2009 at 12:26 PM

    As a Pakistani, I would rather have American soldiers than accursed Taliban or their Arab terrorist allies there. Both scenarios are not a pleasant option but Pakistan must confront the threat of radicalism which is being promoted by our “brothers” in the Middle East. So far the drone attacks have killed some big fish in Pakistan like the terrorist coward Baitullah Mehsud. I’m also concerned that I don’t see any criticism in this article of the Taliban’s attacks which almost exclusively kill civilians rather than soldiers.

    • MM Associates

      August 17, 2009 at 3:19 PM

      I strongly oppose the Taliban. I believe they must be fought, both intellectually and at times physically. I vigorously disagree with their interpretation of Islam; they are murderers who kill civilians, oppress women and minorities, etc. So there is no cause for your concern about not seeing criticism.

      However, you are creating the false choice between entertaining foreign intervention vs allowing the Taliban to reign free in Pakistan. Pakistanis themselves must fight off the Taliban, both intellectually and at times physically. But the sovereignty of the nation cannot be compromised in the process. As I mentioned in the article, not only is this against international law, but it also emboldens the militants, who use the foreign intervention as a means to gain recruits. So the U.S. drone attacks are wrong from both a moral and practical perspective.


    • Siraaj Muhammad

      August 17, 2009 at 8:53 PM

      If I were to hazard a guess, I would imagine you also think Ataturk was excellent for Turkey and that the establishment of Pakistan was on a secular rather than religious basis via the Quaid, correct?


    • hafeez

      August 29, 2009 at 4:31 PM

      I agree with Pakistani ,
      And it is really amazing how they graded your comment to (- ) to a minus 17 ?
      I have to conclude that this pretty unfair.

  7. gopi thomas

    August 17, 2009 at 5:03 PM

    I just do not understand what is “islam” to do with the terrorism happening in Pakistan? The only way these terrorists will be eliminated is by Americans annihilating them, and by Pakistan developing educational and other opportunities (with American and other help if needed).. The biggest threat tearing Pakistan apart is the TAliban and other terrorism happening there. While drone attacks may be bad; hopefully PAkistan and US will be more careful not to kill civilians..

    Taliban and other terrorists are killing civilians all the time; and they have killed more civilians than killed by the drones (I do agree even one is too many!)

    • abu abdAllah Tariq Ahmed

      August 17, 2009 at 5:28 PM

      hopefully PAkistan and US will be more careful not to kill civilians..

      If the police in a neighboring city decided that there were a group of kingpins in your neighborhood, criminals who ran dangerous criminal activities in other places — ie, the criminals were afflicting other places, but your neighborhood was free of threat — and then those same police decided to fire bomb your neighborhood to punish those kingpins, how would you feel?

      If the police fired missiles that had 6% success rates into your neighborhoods, but killed men, women, and children indiscriminately, how many innocent lives would have to be taken before you cried out?

      And if those police accused you of sympathizing with the criminals because you protest the destruction raining down from the sky? Or if they called you ingrates for your response?

      And if your local police force asked the other police to obey the law themselves, asked the other police force to hold off on air-attacks, asked the other police force for restraint, would you not be frustrated by the continued attacks?

      Maybe not. Maybe you only have a summer home in the neighborhood, and you watch the news from some safe place which is free of all the violence. Good for you, eh?

      • MM Associates

        August 17, 2009 at 6:01 PM

        Jazakh-Allah khair, brother Abu Abdullah. Good response.

        The issue is simple: the drones have killed 687 Pakistani civilians, and only 10 actually hitting their target. When Madeline Albright was asked if the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi children were “worth it,” she said “yes.” I say “no!”

        Furthermore, common sense says that killing 687 Pakistani civilians is simply going to recruit more militants to replace the handful that were killed by the drones.


  8. abu abdAllah Tariq Ahmed

    August 17, 2009 at 5:18 PM

    Bismillah. Last night after Maghrib the imam of a local masjid stood up and asked the people to make dua for the scholars of Pakistan who are being killed. He was talking about Pakistani scholars, men who teach in madrasahs in Karachi, who lead salat, who write scholarly works and works of dawah, who refrain from politics completely. And he told us of so many of these scholars who had been killed recently.

    He told us about a scholar who was asked what is the difference between India and Pakistan. And the reply was so much like what we hear here in America: “India is a country where the ulema are allowed to teach and write, Pakistan is a country where the ulema are attacked and prevented from work.” How many times have each of us heard about the freedom here in America to study and teach Islam?

    Make dua for the people of Pakistan, especially for the people displaced by fighting, who fear drone attacks and more, not because they ever did anything to bring such attacks on themselves, but because the ones who pull the triggers care not a whit about the lives taken.

    And there is nothing wrong when you hear the plight of Pakistan, in making dua for them. When you hear of a sick person who is in the hospital on life support, do you pray for someone else? You pray for that person, of course.

    And it is better to pray for all the other sick, too, so add the Muslims of Palestine, of Chechenya, of Somalia, of far-west China, and of every region in the world where persecution is physical and bloody. And then add the Muslims of France and Turkey, and everywhere that governments interfere in the lives of Muslims in ways that those of us here are free from. By comparison, our malady here in America is mainly our lack of gratitude for what Allah has given us, and our lack of action on behalf of the rest of the ummah.

    • MM Associates

      August 17, 2009 at 6:08 PM

      Brother Abu Abdullah, I think there are major problems with the madressas and “mullahs” in Pakistan. The “mullahs”–as they are pejoratively referred to as–are responsible in large part for driving the Pakistani masses away from Islam. They preach a firebrand fire-and-brimstone version of Islam, one full of intolerance, hatred, and myopia. They might not be preaching terrorism, but they do–as is said about them–provide the music that the extremists sway to.

      There are of course exceptions, but reform is necessary.

      Of course I do not mean that we should kill them or have them killed, or even be ok with them being killed. Rather, we should respond to them with tolerance, softness, and mercy…it is an intellectual discourse we should have with them.


      • PakistaniMD

        August 18, 2009 at 3:00 PM

        Having recently been to Pakistan, I can say that many Ulema are against the Taliban. What is sad that that very few speak out against it. The symbolic Grand Mufti of Pakistan, Taqi Usmani, has not once challenged the Taliban intellectually. If he, and other scholars declare the Taliban’s action to be Un-Islamic, the Taliban will lose support amongst the tribes. Though I do agree that some ‘scholars’ teach a “fire-and-brimstone version” of Islam, esp. JEI and JUI.

        • MM Associates

          August 18, 2009 at 3:35 PM

          Dar ul-Deoband in India did finally “term all Taliban actions un-Islamic.” So that was good.

          Anyways, good post, brother. I think we really need to push for a compassionate Islam in Pakistan. I think the Pakistani masses are really thirsty for this.


          • Pakistani X

            August 18, 2009 at 10:56 PM

            Jaysh you’re a presumptuous obfuscator for various reasons:

            a) You presuppose that a normal run off the mill maulvi and ‘aalim are the same- which they are not. If you had lived in Pakistan long enough you would’ve known that in Pakistan anyone who even grows a slight beard on his face, starts being called a ‘maulvi’.

            b) What exactly is this ‘firebarnd’ version you talk of? You have a symptomatic problem of dividing islam into too many versions, because it suits you- as you can then easily distinguish your own ‘version’ from others.

            c) You’re playing right into the hands of secularists propaganda: they’ve created this “other” out of Religion and religious people in Pakistan. It is not even about what they perceive as violent, they’ve a problem with Islam. And, you’re only making their job easy- something you do with skill.

            d) If you had known anything about Pakistani scholars you’d know how hard many of them are trying to bring a change both on an intellectual and social level. I guess you’ve never heard of the likes of Mehmood Ahmad Ghazi, Zahid ur-Rashidi and many others. (And I’m guessing the likes of Dr. Israr Ahmad are fuming extremists to you- wouldn’t be a surprise though).

            e) Since you lived in Karachi, I wonder if you ever even bothered to attend one of the islaahi bayaanat of Maulana Mufti Muhammad Taqi? (Re: To PakistaniMD, Mufti Taqi isn’t the Grand Mufti of Pakistan, get your info right before you make baseless and stupid claims).

            As long as we have people like Jaysh, there’s little chance that ‘Ulema would be able to bring some positive change, because they’re accused of being wrong, even before they can prove that they can do something right.

          • Amad

            August 19, 2009 at 1:07 AM

            It would be nice if you would ever try to make a point without getting personal and vindictive.

          • Mezba

            August 19, 2009 at 8:46 AM

            Jazakallah for planning to write about Pakistan / Bangladesh issue in 1971. It is something that needs to be talked about and something that I am sure will provoke a lot of debate.

            Is it possible to email you?

          • PakistaniMD

            August 19, 2009 at 3:28 PM


            Yes, I noticed my mistake… Taqi Usmani’s brother is the Grand Mufti. His name is Rafi Usmani.

            No one here denies that the highest order of ulema, scholars, and muftis are great people, who are doing a lot to bring good to Pakistan and Islamic scholarship (They’re might be differences of opinion, but that should detract from the overall goal of doing good) .

            What I think J. Hashmi is saying is that the “imams” and “prayer leaders” of the improvised, rural areas of Pakistan teach a more “heaven or hell”-style Islam. There is little to no knowledge of what Islam really entails, and thus, many women + children are denied their rights in our great faith.

          • Suhail

            August 19, 2009 at 4:22 PM

            Brother Pakistan MD,

            What do you mean by “heaven or hell” type of Islam. Islam came because it wanted people to be guided and go to heaven and not hell. That is one of the main reason why we worship our lord.

            The first ayah that were revealed to the muslims in Makkah were mostly relating to the afterlife and constantly reminded the sahaba of heaven and hellfire. That is what made them so strong in Iman because they percieved heaven and hell.

            The local Imam who talks about heaven and hell is not an idiot. He is reminding people that in the end when you are standing infront of Allah on the day of judgement you will be either ordered to go to heaven or hellfire. That is the truth and people need to be reminded of it constantly.

            Quran reminds us about heaven and hellfire constantly to remind us because we human forget it easily in our daily chores.

            Regarding Unislamic practices of Taliban i would really like to see you prove to me the unislamic practices that Taliban had according to our shariah.

            Just because you say or anybody else say that they are unislamic does not mean that it the truth. J Hashmi or you are a nobody in Islam and thus your words carry no weight unless you back that up with shariah. Even then lets say Taliban was wrong in 10 issues does that make them worse then a secular regime who is totally oppossed to the law of Allah.

            And anyways what type of government did Pakistan have. You have a President who is more like a gangstar than a leader. Actually now he has become a beggar. Before that Musharraf was a house slave of the west and most of ther leaders before had no spine or were just tin pot dictators. And the most amazing things of all is that a majority Sunni country is ruled by Shia’s and Qadiani’s. I mean what an irony.

          • PakistaniMD

            August 19, 2009 at 5:03 PM


            J.K. for your insight. I should have elaborated my position more clearly.

            You are correct in that we should fear the hellfire and achieve the pleasure of jannah. I sincerely hope and ask for forgiveness if I made such a incorrect statement.

            On the subject of the horrendous Taliban, I oppose them, just as much as most Pakistanis do. You cannot deny that the majority of Pakistanis ((not just the elite secularists)), who are very much conservative and believers, no longer support the Pak. Taliban. If you can tell me where in the Quran and Sunnah does the Taliban find justification for the subjugation of women, the suppression of ‘secular’ education (almost no child learned Math or Basic Sciences), and complete/utter lack of unity (killing many fellow brothers & sisters b/c of their ethnicity or sectarian affiliation).

            Also, just to add to one of PakistaniX’s statements:

            “And I’m guessing the likes of Dr. Israr Ahmad are fuming extremists to you- wouldn’t be a surprise though”

            If I am not mistaken, Dr. Israr stated the Taliban’s version (and that of their few Phustun allies) was not Sharia, but tribal laws/views. He said that their tribal laws were being conflated w/ Islamic Law.

          • Qas

            August 19, 2009 at 5:13 PM

            “Just because you say or anybody else say that they are unislamic does not mean that it the truth. J Hashmi or you are a nobody in Islam and thus your words carry no weight unless you back that up with shariah.”

            Right back at ya Suhail.

      • Adrian Lobo

        August 19, 2009 at 5:42 PM

        @ Suhail

        You say you have a gangster as the President now. You also say it has been like that with Musharaff and others too.

        Why has it been impossible for Pakistan to set up a stable system? Why has military involved so many times? Why was Ziia allowed to destroy any chance of progress? Why is military running so many parts of the economy? Why are there no new schools or dvanced educational opportunities? Why the land is controlled by a few people?

        What has to happen so people’s aspirations can be achieved? And how can you and other nation loving people contribute to make it happen? Brother Hashim mentioned Imran Khan has the right stuff. Assuming that is right, how can you and others make his election a possibility? If things dont improve, you know and I know, Pakistan will be disintegrated because of Talibansim and other extremism, and it will go back to the stone age or a 640 Ad age; or bombed by US if the extremists could not be controlled. Somebody has to lead a grounds-up movement to get Imran Khan elected. This 10% guy seems to be in a wah-wah land; although at times he says the right things!

        • Suhail

          August 19, 2009 at 6:11 PM

          Adrian it is a waste of time to discuss with you seriously. As Barney frank said it is like talking to a dining table and i am really not interested in that.

          Secondly Qas i asked for evidence from people who say Taliban had unislamic views. They were the first to bring that line so i asked for evidence. Right back at ya does not cut it bro.

          To brother Pakistan MD you must be joking with me when you say that most of the Pakistani’s are conservative and very religious. You can find that out when you go to fajr prayer inshallah.

          Secondly how many Pakistani’s have any idea about what the shariah system is from the outset. I mean most have no clue how to wash there backside or make wudu. How the heck do they know what shariah is? Most Pakistani’s were watching TV or doing there daily chores while there brothers and sisters at Red Mosque were slaughtered by Musharraf and his bandits. Thats how much religious people are.

          Okay lets forget shariah for one second. You say they were subjugating women. I can quote an article from Rahimullah Yusuf Zai a renowned Pakistani journalist who said that is a lie. He has given statistics for that. Regarding they stopping people to read secular subject . Who told that? Please quote me some fact sheets.

          Secondly lets say we both agree that they did commit some wrongs but are those mistakes enough to slaughter them and remove them. Woman are subjugated in Pakistani society even under secular regime. How many cases have arisen where the woman are being raped by multiple people because the village elders ruled that? So did you guys slaughter your leaders for that and declared war on them? No they are still ruling.

          Regarding education then please for gods sake Pakistan has one of the highest illiteracy rate without even taliban. So really if we agree on your accusations than Taliban are no worse than regime already in place.

          Regarding Dr Israr’s comment there is an audio on his own site (I think it is called Tanzeem-e-islami or something) called “Baghawat in NWFP”. Please listen to that and you will understand his viewpoints. He does not believe what you are stating here.

          • PakistaniMD

            August 19, 2009 at 7:09 PM


            Brother, I don’t where you go to do Fajr, but I think people know their basic wudu steps.

            People were doing what anyone else would do during a crisis: wait and see what happens next. People were genuinely afraid of blow-back effect of the siege of the Red Mosque. It was a mistake for Musharraf to attack it w/o warning and w/o evacuating the non-combatants first.

            You are right that there is serious lack of educational quantity and quality in Pk. It is sad, and is detrimental to the future of the Pk. It is a problem that will transcend “secularism” and “Talibanism”.

            However, you compare the Taliban w/ what you call the “secular” regime. I am no supporter of the Peoples Party and the current govt. admin. It is a well-known joke here in the Pk.-American community that Pres. Zardari has had no formal education beyond basic college-level courses.

            While I do not agree w/ the current govt. led by the PPP, I do not oppose it. All laws passed by parliament must be in accordance with Islamic laws. These comparisons are to be handled by a Federal Shariat Panel/Court. It is up to the court to come up w/ a acceptable limit/ruling of the majority of the panel. Pakistan is not about to become “secular” anytime in the near or far future.

            Now on to the topic of the Taliban’s implementation of its form of law & order…
            What is clear that the Taliban did not follow Islamic Law. They conflated it with their social and tribal customs. Check SunniForums and search for Taliban-related posts. You will see clear refutation of their ideology and actions by learnt members of Ulema and students.

            As to your statement on Dr. Israr, I will look into it. I will have to find the time to listen to his lecture.

  9. akim

    August 17, 2009 at 7:13 PM

    wow, this site has really gone down hill

  10. Shuja

    August 17, 2009 at 9:33 PM

    ^^ and why do you think that? ^^

    br. Tariq Ahmed and br. J Hashmi, you both have great points mash’Allah; totallyyy agree with you guys.

  11. The Kamranistan Clothing Company

    August 17, 2009 at 10:44 PM

    Though this month many people are celebrating the independences of Pakistan and India I still do not see why we are celebrating. Sure we broke away from the British, but as usual the British left yesterday’s Hindustan in turmoil. I believe that the partition was unnecessary and a single Hindustan could have survived as it has for thousands of years. The Western powers did this to Palestine and India. And a similar event may or may not happen to Iraq once the U.S. leaves.

    • MM Associates

      August 17, 2009 at 11:49 PM

      I cannot possibly disagree more. You are regurgitating rhetoric designed to undermine the creation of the state of Pakistan. I wonder what country you must come from…hmmmm, lol.


      • The Kamranistan Clothing Company

        August 18, 2009 at 3:56 AM

        I am from the U.S.

        And I have ancestry in Pakistan. Its only an opinion and I wasn’t trying to provoke any sarcasm out of the people here.

        At the end of the day it looks like there is much more progression forward in India rather than Pakistan. I’ve yet to see a country that is founded purely on religion that is stable and tolerant of other ethnic and religious groups. In one country you’ve got a Hindu,Muslim, and Sikh working for the same flag whereas in Pakistan there it is very uncommon to see non-Muslims participate in their country because of the intolerance that has been built up over the decades. The lack of diversity and intolerance that has stemmed from the basis of the creation of Pakistan has set Pakistan back plenty.

        All you have to do is compare the statistics between India and Pakistan. Neither country had a head start. Yet Pakistan is far behind in terms of where it stands in the world.

        I feel like a lot of problems that Pakistan has would have been avoided if it never seceded.

        • MM Associates

          August 18, 2009 at 6:30 AM

          Brother Kamran,

          I apologize for my sarcastic words. May Allah [swt] forgive me.

          Unfortunately I believe that many American born Pakistanis do not know anything about Pakistan and so they adopt odd views, such as being anti-partition, anti-Jinnah, etc. I used to be like that too, until I lived in Pakistan, which prompted me to study on these issues, and consequently led me to jettison the cool ‘counter-cultural’ views that American born Pakistanis love to espouse in order to be novel and ‘intellectual.’ I am sorry if that comes across harsh, but I am describing our whole lot, not you in specific.

          I’ve yet to see a country that is founded purely on religion that is stable and tolerant of other ethnic and religious groups. In one country you’ve got a Hindu,Muslim, and Sikh working for the same flag whereas in Pakistan there it is very uncommon to see non-Muslims participate in their country because of the intolerance that has been built up over the decades. The lack of diversity and intolerance that has stemmed from the basis of the creation of Pakistan has set Pakistan back plenty.

          Please do study the words and views of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, with regard to minorities. Then you will know that the “basis” of Pakistan was the equality of all minorities. This was not just some token view that Jinnah espoused for formality sake, but rather it was something he passionately believed in.

          Yes, it is true that we have gone away from the ideal of toleration that Jinnah espoused, but that simply means we’ve moved away from the basis of our creation, not that the Pakistani state was based in something wrong.

          I do plan on writing on this issue in detail later, insha-Allah.


          • Ali

            August 30, 2009 at 10:20 PM

            was Jinnah even a practising Muslim that Pakistanis so proudly qoute like he the Prophet? The fact of the matter is, the Islamic scholars like Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and others opposed the creation of Pakistan based on religion and facts. Creation of Pakistan only divided the Muslims more and weakened their position in the sub continent. Jinnah was no scholar of Islam not even remotely close to Islam apart from his name. Pakistan was based on false propaganda unfortunately by the Muslim elite co., the Muslim league.

    • Amad

      August 18, 2009 at 12:38 AM

      I guess it is an alright question to ask what the partition has accomplished and are Pakistanis better off? I really don’t know the answer anymore. Though I used to be sure about it before. Everytime I think of Zardari, I can’t help think that even a sikh or a hindu, but SINCERE leader (like the current one in India imho), could have been better perhaps? Sad state of affairs really.

      • MM Associates

        August 18, 2009 at 1:03 AM

        Brother Amad, Pakistan is a very young country. Only sixty years old. Give it time. If someone sensible and honest like Imran Khan can come to power, then things will turn around, if Allah [swt] wills it.

        I do not think that the condition of the Muslims in India is anything to be envious of! Surely we are better in our own country. I believe all the hadiths about not living with mushrikin apply here, since unlike the West, they do not go out of their way to protect the rights of minorities. (Unfortunately neither do we.) In any case, I think atrocities like what happened in Gujrat are reason enough to think it justified to create Pakistan.


        • Adrian Lobo

          August 18, 2009 at 2:13 AM


          Although 60 years is not too long from a historical perspective, the track record of institutions, education, military, political systems, land ownership, fanaticism etc indicates that unless the people themselves take their destinies in control, the likelihood of Pakistan becoming a flourishing member of the international community of nations quite remote.

          A Muslim born in India has a significantly higher probability of becoming an artist (even world renowned), leader, engineer, doctor, teacher, businessman, writer than one born in Pakistan. A Pakistani born will more likely become a terrorist, or if he is a Shia, will more likely be killed by his Sunni bretheren.

          India has evolved into a thriving democracy; the military has not ruled the country even during one day since the partition. Military performed under civilian, elected leadership; winning wars. Pakistani military, instead of winning wars, nudged the civilian leadership out or into exile, took over the country, took over road building, factories, construction etc.

          Any chance for Pakistan to come out of its present “approaching to failed state” status will be only through a strong democracy, putting military in its right place under civilian leadership, property redistribution away from the current feudal set up, and above all convincing the common man that a better future is possible.

          Perhaps religion is not the central glue holding a nation together. If it were, why would there be a desire to get out and form separate countries? Years ago, it was East Pakistan. Now it is Baloochistan and NWF.

          It is high time for Pakistani intellectuals and leaders to either take the country to Jinnah’s vision or define anew vision and work towards it. The corrupt leaders and military have played the bogey man theory for too long; it is time to take stock and move on in the right track implementing aspirations.

          • MM Associates

            August 18, 2009 at 3:16 AM

            Hi Adrian,

            I agree with a lot of what you said; it is the bitter truth. There were parts I disagreed with, but I admit that a lot of what you said is true.

            I support Imran Khan, and he highlights many of the same issues you mentioned. I believe a leader like him can change things around, with the Help of Allah [swt].

            I like his vision of Islam, one of moderation and toleration. He goes to neither extreme: he isn’t a fundamentalist and he doesn’t abandon his religion either. This is where in fact most Pakistanis are on a religious level. Neither the fundamentalist Islam nor the uber-liberals appeal to Pakistanis, but rather middle-of-the-road types like Imran Khan.

            Other than extremism, there is a huge problem with the military, which drains the country of all its wealth. And the feudal system like you mentioned, etc etc. I am on board with you!

            The only difference perhaps is that I am optimistic; I am an optimist. The Prophet [s] said: “Whoever says the people are doomed is the most doomed of all.” So I am hopeful, and trust in God. I have not consigned Pakistan to failure or doom. I agree that we need to diagnose the problem before we can attempt to cure it, but insha-Allah we will do it!

            Change is in the air. The younger generation–especially the educated youth–are flocking to Imran Khan. More than 95% of the young educated people I “surveyed” in Pakistan support him. Obviously that is his demographic, but let’s pray that he can break through to the masses overall.


          • Amad

            August 18, 2009 at 3:24 AM

            A Pakistani born will more likely become a terrorist, or if he is a Shia, will more likely be killed by his Sunni bretheren.

            Your sweeping generalization is disingenuous, if not flat out ridiculous. If every Pakistani sunni was a terrorist, then you’d probably not have been alive to talk about it. You have very little sense of ground reality in Pakistan. Even polls have shown very little support for terrorism. It is a small minority that is getting bigger, yes, but that is only due to the failed governance, and outside interference.

          • MM Associates

            August 18, 2009 at 3:31 AM

            Brother Amad highlighted the part of Adrian’s post that I wholeheartedly disagreed with.


          • Amad

            August 18, 2009 at 3:33 AM

            India has evolved into a thriving democracy;

            While I agree that India’s democratic process for elected governments has been exceptional, there is still a lot to be desired in terms of protection of its minorities. The 2000 burnt alive Gujarati Muslims will continue to haunt India’s claim to being an “enlightened” democracy.

            Human Rights Watch Labels Indian Police Anachronistic, Abusive Force
            U.S. puts India on ’Watch List’

    • Hassan

      August 18, 2009 at 5:54 AM

      Alhamdulillah for Pakistan, otherwise I would be behaving like Indian muslims, submissive and appologetic.

      • Adrian Lobo

        August 18, 2009 at 6:24 AM


        I indicated that only to show the failure of a “religion only” state. I was just giving the probability as to what will happen to a Muslim born in India vs Muslim born in Pakistan if the current situations continue. There is a higher probability of a Muslim born in India to become a professional, artiste, a family builder than a Muslim born in PAkistan. In the same vein, again if the current situations continue, that Muslim born in Pakistan is more likely to become a terrorist.. I did not mean all are terrorists; just saying what is happening now.

        • MM Associates

          August 18, 2009 at 6:35 AM

          There is a higher probability of a Muslim born in India to become a professional, artiste, a family builder than a Muslim born in PAkistan.

          This is patently false. The Muslims in India are lower on the socioeconomic status. That is why even in our diaspora communities in America, the Pakistanis–who are mostly doctors, engineers, etc–are more affluent than the Indian Muslims, who tend to take more blue collar jobs.

          I am not bashing Indian Muslims. Rather, I am simply saying that their socioeconomic condition in India is not good. That is one of the reasons why I think the creation of the state of Pakistan was justified, in order to prevent the Muslims from being a minority at the mercy of a hostile government.


          • Adrian Lobo

            August 18, 2009 at 7:04 AM

            We can all drink our own cool-aids and color the way we would like to see.

            There is a cancer at the core of many of the Islamic countries – Pakistan, Saudi, Somalia, yemen, Sudan, Sub sahara, Egypt etc etc.. People are killing each other, rulers are totally corrupt, aspirations are wasted. These have to be addressed, hopefully by its educated people.

            Vibrant, inclusive, forward looking societies produce world class artists, writers, business men. An Azim Premji (Wipro), Shah Ruh Khan, AR Rehman, Rasool Pookutty, Zakir Husain (Tabla), Abdul Kalam, Ustad Bismillah Khan, MF Husain etc will happen only in a country like India; a Muslim country is yet to produce a world renowned artist. One should explore why.. The environment which does not produce art – books, dance, movie, music, theater etc…- devotes all its time on animosity and difference.

          • Mezba

            August 18, 2009 at 9:20 AM

            Pakistan being built on Two State theory (they Muslims have to have their own state) is a false theory, proven false because Pakistan broke up.

            There is something wrong with Pakistan institutions itself when they can’t get on with their minorities, be they Bengalis in the past, or Balochis, or Christians or Sikhs…

          • UmmOsman

            August 19, 2009 at 7:54 AM


            In reply to Br Adrian Loo following comments

            Vibrant, inclusive, forward looking societies produce world class artists, writers, business men. An Azim Premji (Wipro), Shah Ruh Khan, AR Rehman, Rasool Pookutty, Zakir Husain (Tabla), Abdul Kalam, Ustad Bismillah Khan, MF Husain etc will happen only in a country like India; a Muslim country is yet to produce a world renowned artist

            some famous Muslim /Pakistani

            Syed Abul A’ala Mawdudi -Scholar
            Fatima Surayya Bajia – writer
            Amin Gulgee – artist painter
            Ahmed Farz – poet
            Faiz Ahmed Faiz – poet
            Parveen Shakir – poet
            Nusrat Fateh Ali khan – artist
            Adnan Sami Khan – composer/artist
            Jehanghir Khan – world champion, US champion 7 time British champion
            Edhi Sattar – philanthropists
            Imran Khan -1 out of 6 world cricketers to have achieved an ‘All-rounder’s Triple’ in Test matches.
            Zaheer Abbas — Only Asian batsman to have scored one hundred first class centuries.
            Shahid Afridi -currently holds the highest career strike rate in the history of international cricket
            and many more


      • Amad

        August 18, 2009 at 6:29 AM

        otherwise I would be behaving like Indian muslims, submissive and appologetic.

        That is quite a generalization… I don’t think Indian Muslims would take too kindly to this sort of broad-brushing.

        • MM Associates

          August 18, 2009 at 6:37 AM

          Brother Amad, I agree with you that is way too broad of a generalization and highly offensive. However, I *do* think that too many Indian Muslims simply regurgitate Indian propaganda that they learn growing up, i.e. anti-partition.


          • Umm Ali

            August 18, 2009 at 10:31 AM

            Then you think wrong brother. You’ve not “lived” in India, have you? And how many Indians have you encountered in Pakistan to make that sweeping generalization?

          • MM Associates

            August 18, 2009 at 2:19 PM

            Brother Umm Ali, I am talking about the many Indian Muslims whom I befriended whilst in America. But you are right: maybe I am making too sweeping a statement myself. The Indian Muslims are my brothers in faith.


        • Hassan

          August 18, 2009 at 6:41 AM

          Well, then thats good, if its not true

        • Hassan

          August 18, 2009 at 6:47 AM

          Also one shocking thing I have noticed, i know a very practicing Indian muslim brother, and we (some of pakistanis) were casually discussing with him comparison of Pakistan military branches vs Indian, and his statements and reactions were like Indian military can kick ur a$$ anytime (he was not speaking as a factual statement, but rather emotional statement).

          And same brother is too much anti-partition, and whenever something bad happens to Pakistan, he rejoices, and believe me he is very practicing otherwise, and generally good in all other matters. And I have seen many such people.

          So regardless this action is justifiable or not, alhamdulillah I was born in Pakistan and am saved from such fitnah

          • Adrian Lobo

            August 18, 2009 at 7:20 AM


            What is strange about that? What is wrong in your friend liking his country? and discussing regarding armies, is not it a fact that Pakistan started three-four wars and did not get anywhere? IS nt it a fact that Pakistan Army is more focused now on business than “army”? Army runs factories, builds construction and housing projects, runs electricity production etc in Pakistan..

          • Mezba

            August 18, 2009 at 9:22 AM

            Don’t see anything wrong with an Indian supporting his country.

            Pakistan army is hardly the epitome of a Muslim army.

          • MM Associates

            August 18, 2009 at 2:28 PM

            There is certainly something odious about a Muslim supporting the Indian army against a Muslim country.

            Having said that, I am always an ardent supporter of peace. Pakistan and India should live in peace and harmony, and mutual coexistence. This was actually what the founder of Pakistan wanted. Unfortunately many people have not studied history so they have no idea at all why Pakistan was created!


      • Ali

        August 30, 2009 at 10:27 PM

        Indian Muslim condition in some parts of India are no doubt not the best. But when you compare it to the sad and unfortunate condition of Pakistan it is still far more respectful. Pakistan, a country where religion often divides rather then unites. Pakistanis keep clinging on two accounts to oppose India. One, Babri masjid and second, Gujarat. But they forget their own wrongdoings from COUNTLESS bombings of Masajids, countless Muslims killing Muslims, Punjabis killing balochis, pashtoons, NWFP tribal warfare, countless suicide bombings, shia vs sunni etc etc and the list keeps going on. And yet they have the arrogance of claiming their condition to better then of India? This is the blindness that caused the creation of Pakistan in the first place. Pakistan does NOT mean kalima nor does is it ‘Paak’ in essence. Please remember massacre and rape of Bangladeshi souls and then worry about other nations.

    • Pakistani X

      August 18, 2009 at 11:01 PM

      I’m not sure why you got negged but despite the fact that I disagree with you, you have a valid point. A vast number of Muslim leaders and scholars were against the idea of a two-state solution. Most prominent among them include:

      a) Maulana Abul Kalam Azad (ra)

      b) Hazrat Maulana Husayn Ahmad Madni (ra) and others.

  12. Ahmad

    August 18, 2009 at 9:14 AM

    The Pakistanis on this page to be more interested in being blind nationalists then truthful in what they write. Hey Pakistanis, your state is a failed state and on US life support. That’s right, this country that you boast about is nothing to be proud of.

    • MM Associates

      August 18, 2009 at 2:33 PM

      I do not know who you are referring to here, but as for me, I admit many of the shortcomings of Pakistan. I also recognize the prosperity of the Indians. Yet, I still have love for Pakistan and am hopeful that we can turn things around. What–in your view–is wrong with this?


  13. Mezba

    August 18, 2009 at 9:23 AM

    Perhaps the US attacks Taliban in Pakistan because the government of Pakistan cannot do it themselves.

    It’s quite telling US drones don’t attack India or Bangladesh or Sri Lanka which have their own extremist problems. It’s because in those countries people don’t support the extremists and the government is capable of taking action.

    • MM Associates

      August 18, 2009 at 2:35 PM

      Mezba, where were the Pakistani Taliban before the invasion of Afghanistan?

      Answer: They didn’t exist. So why are you blaming us for America’s mess?


    • muslimah

      August 21, 2009 at 8:54 AM

      i agree with you there. America never attacked saudi cos they are are trying to eradicate extremism themselves.

  14. Abu Rumaisa

    August 18, 2009 at 9:46 AM

    Pakistan’s current state is of Pakistan’s choosing. When the west attacked Afghanistan in 2001 & toppled the Islamic govt there.. Pakistani govt choose to be on the side of the west.. their defence -if we didn’t side with the Americans.. they would have attacked us too. I am saying that Pakistan should have mobilised an army against the western forces but it could have remained neutral.

    Pakistan was central supply route for the western forces & even to this day most of the supplies come via Pakistan. Then it also started attacking the mujahideen who were fighting the occupying forces. What did Pakistan expect after this? That those on the border r not going to retaliate against it… Pakistan Taliban came into existance after their areas were attacked, before that they were busy helping the mujahideen in Afghanistan fight off the occupiers.

    Pakistan choose not go against the west to avoid the state it has found itself in today…. but it happened by attacking Muslims rather than attacking non-muslims. If in the end, Pakistan in the same dire state… ift should have gone with fighting the occupying forces, atleast they would have had some left with some respect.

    btw I m no fan of the Pakistan Taliban & disagree with their actions. And they r not to be confused with Afghani Taliban who were the legitimate govt of Afghanistan & Islamic one too..

    • MM Associates

      August 18, 2009 at 3:41 PM

      Most Pakistanis–and Muslims in general–do not view the Taliban as Islamic at all. Rather, most Muslims think that their rule was un-Islamic. Even the very conservative Dar ul-Deoband of India deemed “all Taliban actions un-Islamic.” So we will have to disagree brother on what is Islamic and what is un-Islamic.

      However, I agree with you that Pakistan should not have assisted in the war on Afghanistan, because this only served to endorse America’s role as the global police. The Taliban were only able to rise to prominence in Afghanistan due to many long years of intervention (by the British, Russians, Americans, etc), so more of the same (interventionism) certainly won’t help! In fact, more intervention will only embolden the fundamentalists and increase their ranks.

      The United States was founded on the principle of non-interventionism. This is a very excellent policy, and it is sad that they have drifted so far from that. It would be very good for America–and the world–if a sensible man like Ron Paul were elected, as he would bring an end to the imperial foreign policy of America, returning it to its origins and what the Founding Fathers envisioned for the country.


      • Abu Rumaisa

        August 19, 2009 at 9:51 AM

        What was unislamic abt them? the vigilantes the article referred to. were in Pakistan. But in Afghanistan, they were the govt not vigilantes… they mite have started as one but we all know at that point there was no govt what so ever.

        The article points outs attacks on shrines, barber shops & educational institutes… while Taliban was the government in Afghanistan they didn’t blow up educational institutes but restricted “secular” education for girls (while i think they were wrong to do so, it’s a stretch to call it haraam). Barber shop were not allowed to shave beards else it was ok operate them, shops that failed to follow were closed not blown in Afghanistan while they were in rule. I think u r right abt shrines but our ‘beloved’ Saudi govt did the same & ulema don’t seem to mind it, infact still defend it in the name of preventing shirk & bidah so why a different stance in Afghanistan.

        You say that “Most Pakistanis–and Muslims in general – do not view the Taliban as Islamic at all.” Bro, if we have to go by most ppl say & do then most haraam will be halaal. Most Pakistanis — and Muslims don’t keep beards, don’t do hijab, listen to music, watch haraam entertainment, have no problems with non-mahrams intermingling in weddings, parties, etc. If we go by what most r ok with & consider those who avoid these acts as extremist then we r doomed for sure. Many muslims had a gripe with Afg Taliban bcoz they banned music & tv, applied hudood punishments, required that women wear the veil, take the permission of mahram when going out & when travelling they should do so with a mahram… since when did these rules become un-islamic? We don’t tend to follow them & infact live whr haraam is all around us and when we see all this we do not even flinch or r disgusted by it. But if one chooses to apply strict islamic laws then we do have a problem with it.

      • Suhail

        August 19, 2009 at 10:14 AM

        There you go off again. What the heck does Dar-ul-deoband India know about Taliban in Afghanistan. They have no idea about it. Which scholar from Dar-ul-deoband went to Afghanistan during Taliban rule and checked out there islamicness. Dar-ul-deoband India has been issuing idiotic fatawas to please hindus.

        The only knowledge they have is from newspapers. Secondly Dar-ul-Deoband have gave ridiculous fatawa forbading eating cow to please hindus. Would you follow that? Just because Dar-ul-deoband in India says something does not mean it is truth.

        Secondly there were many many Ulema who supported Taliban. But according to you they are mullah’s with no brain. Have you ever heard of a ahadith that says “The best among you is the one who learns Quran and teaches it”. You should be careful when you speak degradingly about “Mullahs” in Pakistan. Your medical degree is not going to help you in akhirah because it has no weight but that “Mullah” in pakistan who you think is backward is learning the Book of Allah and teaching it to the future generation.

        At last you go on and on about how unislamic Taliban are. Prove it . Yes they had mistakes but what was unislamic about them? Isn’t the government sitting there right now is totally secular. So you prefer secular governments to sharia?

        • Adrian Lobo

          August 19, 2009 at 3:32 PM

          If this is the way people think, and act; no wonder why Muslims are looked down with fear and a violence driven backward looking time frozen people..

          • Suhail

            August 19, 2009 at 4:40 PM

            Look at your own country and then talk about muslims. You have killed millions and millions of people around the globe. Do i need to remind you the ethnic cleansing of native indians, nuclear bombing of two cities, vietnam, south america, iraq, afghanistan and two world wars. Others like India and china do not have a very nice history to talk about.

            Cry me a river. Freaking look into the mirror. West is the most violent and non tolerant society. Bloody hypocrites.

          • L Mirza

            August 19, 2009 at 7:58 PM

            @ Suhail

            Pakistan is a breeding factory of terrorists. These terrorists kill your own people there and they go all around the world killing innocent people. And you say these are good Muslims? What planet are you from?

            Sharia or no sharia is the issue. Pakistan government, Pakistani mullahs, pakistani military, and many Pakistani “ordinary’ Muslims are accomplices in this worldwide violence as long as they harbor these people.

            You can say anything about washing the butt, or specific processes, or “this” Koranic script vs “that”; it is a shame you do not criticize the talibans and their elks, while criticizing the current political leadership. I hope they did not kill anybody (although they stole lots of money); and they were not there when Taliban and extremism were being cultivated by the people there..

            Whatever it is, the country will reap what its people saw. Pakistan is burning because of “one track” mentality people like you. You even had the audacity to say the current leadership is Shia and how Shia can be leaders of Pakistan? Why not? Isnt Shia Muslim too?

          • Suhail

            August 20, 2009 at 10:06 AM

            Mirza don’t act like a joker. Oh really so they kill innocent people. Why is your tirade against muslims only? How many innocent lives have the west taken? Can you count them or they just too many to even count.

            Regarding Pakistan harboring of terrorist I think you are one of the listener of FOX news. Stop watching Orielly and Limbaugh than may be some sense will come to your mind.

            Yes i have the audacity to tell that because i do not consider the leaders of Shia to be muslims. As per the layman shia than i would take the ruling as the classical sunni scholarship have considered them.

            Did Iran have any Sunni member even in there cabinet? The answer is no. Sunni’s cannot even build mosque in Iran. So how come these idiot Rafidhi’s are able to control a Sunni Majority country. And if you are one of them then i can understand your animosity towards Sunnis as you are one of those Rafidi hypocrites.

            -Comment edited. Pls mind your language.

  15. Adrian Lobo

    August 18, 2009 at 3:15 PM


    I just cannot understand why you would say there is something “odious” about an Indian Muslim supporting Indian army vs Pakistani army! Why would he support Pakistan army? Should eh support it because he is a Muslim?

    I am not a Muslim; so I cannot give any religious interpretations; but if he can be a good Muslim only if he supports Pakistan army (vs Indian army, his mother land’s army) , then there is something seriously wrong.

    There is nothing odious about this.

    • Mezba

      August 18, 2009 at 3:21 PM

      I guess that’s why all the Pakistanis supported their so-called Muslim army when it was slaughtering Muslims in Bangladesh in 1971.

      I guess this is why there is still not one Pakistani man enough to admit their country has blood on her hands.

      • MM Associates

        August 18, 2009 at 3:30 PM

        Mezba, you speak out of pure ignorance. In fact, every single Pakistani I’ve spoken to has admitted that Pakistan was wrong in the conflict with Bengladesh, just like many Americans admit that they were wrong in Vietnam.


        • Mezba

          August 18, 2009 at 3:33 PM

          I suppose then you will agree that in that case an Indian should have supported the Indian army’s actions against Pakistan (in 1971) ?

          And if you do agree, then it’s not so odious, is it?

          • MM Associates

            August 18, 2009 at 3:51 PM

            You have an incredibly oversimplified views of things.


          • Amad

            August 19, 2009 at 2:53 AM

            Mezba, I am sympathetic to your position on Bangladesh, to the point that I plan to (inshallah) write something on this subject in the future. I haven’t done all the research yet, but I have had conversations with Bangladeshi friends about their own eyewitness accounts from 1971. I think the Bangladesh issue is one of the skeletons in Pakistan’s closet and only Allah knows, whether Pakistan’s current state is some of Allah’s “reward” for any injustice committed. We all believe Allah is All Just, and that his retribution for injustice always comes, in what format only He knows.

            However, and sorry for the long prelude, you cannot expect to change people’s opinions or affect them in any positive way, by being jarring & in-your-face. This will only invite an emotional reaction. The people who are on these pages are much younger, and 99.9999% had absolutely no part in the injustice committed, and probably have very little idea of what happened. So, the objective should be educate, not to attack and be offensive.

    • MM Associates

      August 18, 2009 at 3:27 PM


      I did not say he should support the Pakistani military necessarily. Rather, I said that it is odious if he were to support the Indian army against Pakistan.

      In such a scenario, religious loyalty and national loyalty would conflict. The solution to resolve this conflict–in my estimation–is for the Indian Muslim to support peace and resolution.


      • Adrian Lobo

        August 18, 2009 at 3:49 PM

        I just cannot believe this! Are you saying that a Muslim American army guy cannot participate in a military attack by US on say, Saudi Arabia?

        If that is the “true belief” how can any Muslim be a citizen of a secular country? How can they migrate to US, Europe?, if they are not willing to abide by the rules of the country? What if India and Pakistan are in a state of war — are you saying a “believing” Muslim jawan in the Indian army cannot and should not fight against the PAkistanis? (We all know war is bad; irrespective of what we think leaders will declare war; and you yourself know Pakistan declared war on India three times)

        If this is true, then the first priority of educated and progressive Muslims should be to reconcile between these types of beliefs and living in a secular democracy. Otherwise, I honestly believe, Muslims will be marginalized more and more; they will have to be in “muslim countries” and really perish — look around everywhere; no Muslim country is doing gangbusters; they are all affected by killing muslim against muslim, poverty, illiteracy etc – Somalia, Egypt, Ethiopia, Sub sahara, Sudan, yemen, PAkistan, Saudi Arabia…

        I just guess solving this “internal conflict” may bring solutions to larger issues.

        • MM Associates

          August 18, 2009 at 3:56 PM


          These wars–such as the one you wish for (against Saudi Arabia)–are illegal and unconstitutional to begin with. America has no business in Saudi Arabia. Rather, all US troops should be stationed in America.

          Furthermore, the draft is unconstitutional.

          Please read the views of Dr. Ron Paul on this issue.

          With regard to your claim that Pakistan started the wars with India, this is incorrect and exposes your bias. All of the wars except for one were on the issue of Kashmir, due to India’s occupation.

          With regard to your assessment of the Muslim world, it would be good to study history a bit. There are actual reasons for this, which have a lot to do with colonialism. Even in India, the British played the Hindus against the Muslims, favoring the former over the latter, for a variety of reasons, which would take much time to discuss. When it was time for partition, the Hindus had a head start because of this, which helps explain why India is so ahead now as compared to Pakistan.


          • Adrian Lobo

            August 18, 2009 at 4:48 PM


            I dont get this. Ron Paul will never become President of US. So let us talk about realities. I love peace and am against wars. Politicians and dictators start war.

            So, whatever ones opinion may be, in the case of Iraq war, are you saying that a Muslim American soldier , “According to the Books” should not fight against Iraqui insurgents, even though his country orders him to?

            Let us take the case of Iran. If the negotiations do not succeed, and US goes on to war with Iran (which is stupid decision, but more stupid things have happened), are you saying that Muslim seargent in the US army should not participate in that war?

            If US had gone to war with Saudi Arabia because 16 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, are you (I do not mean you personally; but the dominant interpretation of the books) saying that a Muslim military officer in US army should not fight that war?

            Let us say India declared war on Pakistan last year as a result of the terrorist attacks in Mumbai. Are you saying the books , or an interpretation of the book, prohibits a Muslim Indian military guy from participating in that war?

            There is a real problem if these scenarios are true. And therein may lie the real solution. How does one reconcile to the demands of a nation state? How can be one the citizen of vibrant democracies like US and UK, but dont follow the direction in a war situation? These situations will arise in a Muslim only country too. What will happen if NWF wants to secede?

            I am not belittling the internal conflict. But unless it is dealt with and reconciled, the issue of confused loyalty, where does one belong to etc all take its own dimensions and lead to destructive behavior.

        • Abu Rumaisa

          August 19, 2009 at 9:54 AM

          yes u r right Adrian. The loyalty is 1st to religion then to nation.

          • Adrian Lobo

            August 19, 2009 at 11:07 AM


            Then does nt this create a major problem? Also, what does loyalty to religion mean? I can understand one being religious — doing the right things, loving all etc..

            Does that mean a Muslim (according to the “books”) can only be involved in a war with a non-Muslim (whatever it means!) state? In that case, how can a Muslim kill and bomb Muslims (as it happens in Iraq, Pakistan, Afganistan etc)? What happens when a part of a Muslim country wants to separate?

            But more importantly, the educated and thinking Muslims have to resolve and reconcile this conflict – loyalty, or how a Muslim can survive and thrive in a secular country without conflicts. I sense, unless this is resolved and reconciled, this conflict will drive people crazy! Or Muslims will have to settle in countries that are declared ISlamic (and that may not be choice also; because those countries can get involved in wars with Muslim countries such as East PAk/West PAk) . It looks like that the learned ones should come up with how one can be religious without subjecting one to hard dogmas that may have made sense at one time, but may not now.

            Thank you for your answer. Actually, it makes me frightened!

          • Amad

            August 19, 2009 at 11:16 AM

            It is amazing that you assume that participation in wars is a condition for a person to be a good citizen. Do you know that the American naturalization process allows you to not accept to be part of any armed force… there are many people who will not participate in armed action based on a variety of reasons.

            As for “loyalty”, read this post.

        • hafeez

          September 1, 2009 at 12:23 PM

          dear Adrian,

          It is true ,at the time of naturalization, muslims along with all non muslims
          take the oath of alegiance to their new country.Their original citizenship is
          cancelled and they get American passport.
          (there are exceptions like dual citizenships like Israel).
          And all people have to abide by the laws of USA

          This issue should be discussed and justly resolved in prudent manner.
          I remember when Ex world boxing champion , mohammad Ali refused to
          go to war, he was jailed. Mohammad Ali’s position was that Vietnam war
          was unjust..


  16. hafeez

    August 18, 2009 at 5:52 PM

    dear brother Hashmi,

    your article is just an old rhetoric blaming everyone except muslims for what condition the muslims are in.
    All people deal with their own problems .All people clean their own houses. Muslims are exceptional.
    They leave their house dirty and then others have to come and clean their houses. It is quite expected that when foreign army comes to clean up menace like Talban or Saddam they do the things they want . foreign armies have their own agenda. It is really not surprising what follows. These are not muslim armies . Why should you even expect them to be fair to local people . did you forget the british colonized and ruled
    indo-pak subcontinent for more than a century.

    All people defend themslves but muslims do not believe in their own defences. The only standing army any muslim country has is the pakistani army , that too, has become terribly corrupt becuse of having civilian powers in past decades. I am surprised why General kiyani did not choose to take the powers of Musharraf.
    The lust of hand outs that pakistani government has been receiving from the west has blinded them . They just cannot see the sufferings of ordinary citizens of Pakistan.

    Nobody says or writes anything about the system of “absentee land-lordism or the old Jageerdari nezam” that is thriving in pakistan . If you recall the secular India abolished this oppressive , repressive ,unjust fudal system way back in 1950. Muslim landlords are eating the lion share of the harvest that has really been produced by their own fellow citizens ( used as slaves ) the poor muslims .They do not even allow schools in rural pakistan. They are afraid the slave work force will disappear if they become educated . Is this the way you treat your own brother . muslims are supposed to be brothers to each other . People should know Allah does not like this .The punishment of this kind of crime comes in the shape of humiliation of an entire country. Today pakistan is being humiliated. Kids are engaged in snatching cell- phone and wallets on the streets of pakistan. pakistani’s are robbing the houses of their own neighbors.
    Pakistani rulers have been robbing their country to put money in their swiss acount. now , the same people have been elected to rule for another terrm.

    When Osama’s gang is expelled from everywhere , they find friendly hosts in muslim lands like pakistan and Afghanistan . The cult of death is operational all over Pakistan now . This is the new edition of Islam
    which justifies suicide as a primary mode of defence. This is relatively new in Pakistan but has been practiced by the followers of Yassir Arafat for several decades in palestine .They were the champions of suicide . now the Pakistani and afghans are beating the palestinian record.

    As far Mullah is concerned , they only can make politically correct statements . They have long abandoned
    their duty of ” Amr-bil- maaroof and nahi-a-anil-munkar”. A lot of mullahs live in the pocket s of their country’s dictators . Haqq just does not come on their mouths. They are stunningly silent on all the evils in muslim societies. now mullah even enjoys political power in Pakistan . Their lives are full of rituals but totally devoid of true Islamic spirit. They silently watch when rights of weaker sections of society is trampled upon . like women’s right or the right of labor etc . Everytime , they try to find some fault with the west for all the ills of muslims .

    I do not know what is there to celebrate anywhere in the mislim world . Violence has become synnymous to
    Islam. Allah says in Qur’an (translation) ” I will most definitely test you with things like : fear, hunger ,
    and losses of money ,losse of lives , losses of crops /fruits and give the good news to muslims who wil
    do sabr (will persevere). These are people who, when hit by adversity and clamity , say “inna- lillahi-wa
    inna -ilaihi raajaoon.” The orders are to persevere and work hard and Allah will make it better later on.
    “inn-a-ma’al usre-yusra. (mentioned on another place in qur’an)

    It is time muslims own up to their condition , understand where they are and work hard to improve them selves and their societies . Alla’h help will come only if we make our own efforts first.

    I certainly do not condone americans killing civilians in pakistan . this is outrageous but Pakistan is helpless. ” taqdeer ke qazi ka yeh fatwa hai azal se,
    hai jurm-e zaeefi ki saza marg-e-mafajaat.

    by the way it is far better to make your own drones than to beg or borrow.


    • L Mirza

      August 20, 2009 at 3:39 PM

      @ Hafeez

      I agree with brother Hafeez. It is high time we look at ourselves and stop blaming others. What a mess has been created.. a hydra with million heads..
      We cannot stand in silence any more and blame everybody else except ourselves.

      I recommend somebody on this site start a “suggestion” stream as to what we all can do to change the current equation; and it cannot be a blame game or about things that happened in the past; it should be about present and now as to what we, the people can do (one of the guidelines for the forum, for example, will be “no criticism of US; but, suggestions for how its foreign policy can be changed by us for our advantage”. My preference is to focus on our own countries (at this time only Islamic countries) and suggest how a change can be brought up (for example, how do we bring Imran Khan to power if he is good for Pakistan; Or Saudi Arabia — if the monarchy is the right thing, how do we preserve the monarchy and eliminate terrorism there, or if democracy is good, how to bring democracy..

    • hafeez

      August 24, 2009 at 8:44 AM

      please read my comments .you may not agree .I only believe i have a right to opinion


  17. Frank

    August 18, 2009 at 9:58 PM

    The author of this piece is obviously bias by stating without any proof there have been 687 “innocent” Pakistani civilians been killed by drone strikes. The reality is Pakistan is full of terrorist and terrorist supporters (sympathizers), and it is just not a few “bad apples” like the media tells us. It is a country with institutionalized bigotry. Let us not forget this is a country that was founded on the killing and ethnic cleansing of millions of innocent people. The only country I know with a history this bloody off the top of my head is Israel, but they did it on a much smaller scale. He needs to rethink his definition of “innocent !”

    • abu abdAllah Tariq Ahmed

      August 18, 2009 at 10:29 PM

      Let us not forget this is a country that was founded on the killing and ethnic cleansing of millions of innocent people.

      With all due respect, Frank, go read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. You just described the USA.

      • Frank

        August 18, 2009 at 11:32 PM

        What’s your point?

        • Amad

          August 19, 2009 at 1:05 AM

          His point is that you are so caught up in your own bigotry that you failed to see that America itself was founded on land stolen from Native Americans whose lives and culture was pillaged and almost completely destroyed.

          The British were the imperialistic force in the subcontinent, just like the pilgrims were in America.

          Anyway, all your comments point you to being a true Islamophobic troll, whose purpose is not to discuss or argue critically but instead to make outlandish, stereotypical comments. And there is no place for that on MM. Bye bye, back to LGF for you.

    • hafeez

      August 24, 2009 at 11:49 AM

      dear Frank,
      It is nice to see your opinion , however
      what you said is not true.
      Pakistan was created as a political process ., with out violence of any kind .
      nobody kidnapped Britishers ,nobody slaughtered them .It was a peaceful, non-violent movement .
      no body commited suicide etc and there was no ethnic cleansing etc.

      this is true that at the time of partition animosity between muslims and hindus
      came to suface and there were hindu-muslim violence in different areas .
      both communities suffered as a result.. Transfer of populations complicated matters further

      This is also not true that all people of Pakitan are terrorists . There are masses of innocent people
      who do not have to do anything with terrorism. They only want to be left alone to work and
      provide for their families. This is also true that there are more than few bad apples .

      This , however is true that the Mullahs and their followers are sympathisers of terrorism
      and violence .The proof of that is that they never speeak l out oudly and clearly aginst this violence.
      That killing of any innocent person is a great sin in Islam.



      • Suhail

        August 27, 2009 at 1:53 PM

        Hafeez you need to learn your deen again. You reply kindly to the non muslims and your anger is towards the muslims. Amazing lesson in al-wala-al-bara. No wonder muslims are being opressed everywhere.

        • hafeez

          August 27, 2009 at 9:46 PM

          respectable brother Suhail

          I can undertand your situation. , That : the truth is often bitter.
          please keep in mind this is only a civil discourse that we engaged iin.
          we are not in combat .everybody’s opinion is valuable. You have a forum to correct people if you know better.

          Allah commands muslims to talk straight and only side with the “Haqq”.
          (the truth). You are not able to dispute a single thing that I have said.
          I only spoke the truth. If I lived in the Taliban controlled territory, you will probably behead me.

          The only things that are sacred is Allah (s.w.t), his messenger (s.a.w)
          The Qur’an and the sunnah of Rasool-Allah. The deen of Allah ,
          Al-Islam .These are perfect .

          Muslims are only ollowers of this faith but they are not sacred.
          Allah will honor you if you are righteous and will punish you if you
          transgress. Our salvation are dependant on our aamal and not
          because we were given a muslim name or claim to be muslims.
          and ultimately upon the mercy of Allah.

          It is our duty to be polite and fair with everybody whether they are muslims or non-muslims . It is also a duty say the the way the things are. even if it goes against your dad or your brother.

          do you know the man will run away from his brother ,his father and his
          children on the day of judgement. Let me tell you Allah says so.

          I wish you well. and khayr

          your brother ,

          • Suhail

            August 28, 2009 at 9:32 AM

            A muslim is protected from other muslims tongue and his honor is protected. That is a right of a muslim. Secondly please go ahead and read Surah Al tawba and maidah. Allah says that be stern with non believers and be merciful towards other muslims. But you display oppositte qualities as can be witnessed on here.

            And why would Taliban behead you because you make baseless comments. There is nothing to answer. Your whole comment is baseless. What you told about Pakistan being formed without any violence is ridiculous. Millions of people died in the partition and majority of them where muslims.

            Secondly the mullahs whom you accuse of terrorism are the ones who teach your kids quran and lead you in salah. Before you open your mouth against them and make sweeping claims learn your own worth. How much of the quran did you learn and how many people have you taught Quran?

            The guy Frank whom you are so kindly responding is an idiot Islamophobic and muslim hater but still you are so kind to him. But with other muslims you don’t even give them benefit of doubt rather you make sweeping generalizations against them. This is why i am telling you go and read more of Quran and Seerah before you talk about Islam on forums and embarrassing yourself.

            -Comment edited. Pls mind your language.

  18. abu abdAllah Tariq Ahmed

    August 18, 2009 at 10:26 PM

    Alhamdolillah alaa kulli haal. It is not easy to write about the state of Pakistan, in any sense of the expression. But if there is any particular drawback to writing about it on a mostly-unmoderated blog page, it is that publishing an angry retort takes as little time as publishing a temperate one. And the words linger just as long, too.

    If I have written anything that was mean to anyone here, I apologize for it.

    With Ramadan so close the time could be counted in hours, let us remember the too many people suffering in Pakistan. Their Ramadan will not be like mine or yours. May Allah open wide His Mercy for them and for us, too.

  19. Gracious Creation

    August 19, 2009 at 4:12 AM

    Subhanallah. An interesting read I might say, especially the comments section.
    I was taken aback regarding the statement on “Indian Muslims being apolegetic and submissive”.
    But then again, we are in a ‘secular’ country aren’t we?
    It is true that the socio-economic status of the Muslims is not that great here. That of course would depend in which areas of India you are looking at. Isn’t it the same in Pakistan also, between the cities and the towns?

    And regarding the wars between India and Pakistan and the Muslims supporting it, then that part of history was made by people who believed more in being pariotic to one’s country. I am talking of both India and Pakistan. The wars were fought for land and for political gains. It had nothing to do with religion.

    Even the movies in India, when portraying defending one’s country against ‘foregin’ countries, shows the Muslim soldier claiming love for his country and his duty to defend it.
    As a side-note of movies, I am sure we all know that Indian cinema does influence a lot of what happens with teh common man in Pakistan.

    It is sad to note about the state of Pakistan. If I remeber right, people during the partition believed that the country would be rules using the Book of Allaah. I wonder if it is still the same today.

    May Allaah swt protect the Muslims from these fitnah and make us strong in our Eeman.

  20. Pakistani

    August 19, 2009 at 8:41 PM

    Leave the Pakistan/Bangaladesh issue alone. It’s like the Turk/Arab issue: complicated, exploited by external self-interested, non-Muslim actors, and generally unhelpful in bringing about reconciliation or harmony among the various tribes/nations of the Ummah. No Pakistani can deny that atrocities were committed against innocents in Bangaldesh; this unfortunately exemplifies the ugly nature of war. However, the numbers and alleged types of atrocities are disputed by Bangladeshi intellectuals and academics as well. Meanwhile, no Bangladeshi can deny that atrocities were committed against fellow Bangladeshis and Pakistani military families by Indian-backed “freedom fighters.” The entire issue is a disgusting chapter in Muslim history much like the unfortunate wars fought by Muslims against each other in the early years after the death of the Prophet (peace be upon him).

    • Mezba

      August 19, 2009 at 9:56 PM

      For harmony to occur one must apologize sincerely for past misdeeds. Here is a detail of the genocide.

      All from independent eye witness accounts. One must also remember the Haroon ur Rashid report (this was a Pakistani report) essentially saying the same thing.

      What is shocking to me is the “gendercide against woman”… what Muslim army , or its leadership, can condone rape of civilian, unarmed women, that also Muslim? That to me is the most shameful chapter in Pakistan’s history for which people are yet to apologize or bear responsibility – rather they say things like “let’s not discuss this”.

      Germany made its peace with rest of Europe by not running away from its Nazi history, but rather working hard, admitting their shortcomings and by proper leadership.

  21. A Mennen

    August 20, 2009 at 5:34 AM

    It is a fact that Pakistan had (and may still have) lots of terrorist training camps. Almost all terrorists that are captured had training in those “universities”.

    Islam, currently, rightfully or wrong, is equated with terrorism by many. Pakistan is considered a terrorist, failing, state.

    It looks like you, the elite Pakistanis, are still discussing how good the Taliban is or how the government is worse than Taliban in following Muslim religion. Whoever follows the better way, I hope you all accept theer are major problems, and unless acted upon by PAkistanis themselves, the whole thing will be totally out of control and will engulf Pakistan.

    I am amazed how many of you are still defensive of the colossal problems and blaming others for the problems.

    • Pakistani X

      August 21, 2009 at 12:31 AM

      While you’re at it why don’t you mention your own country’s problem with indigenous insurgencies, for much longer and far greater than Pakistan. The naxalites, nagaland separatists etc… to name a few.

      • hafeez

        August 27, 2009 at 12:17 PM

        dear Pakistani X

        you are right about insugencies in India .please do not forget Kashmir.
        These are seperatist movements . Thes movements are in china too.
        Remember Bangladesh became a seprate country from your original Pakistan
        These movements do not threaten world community .
        Al-qaeda and taliban are not only a grave threat to Pakistan but also to the entire world.
        that is the reason you see the entire world is focused on them


        • Abu Rumaisa

          August 27, 2009 at 12:56 PM

          Al-qaeda and taliban are not only a grave threat to Pakistan but also to the entire world.
          that is the reason you see the entire world is focused on them

          AQ = Yes, Taliban was & is local thing, it never interfered in international affairs till the international world decided to occupy them. They are still focused on their region.

          If we r talking abt Global Threat then US & it’s fervent allies r to be feared the most.

          • Suhail

            August 27, 2009 at 2:04 PM

            Now Taliban is a global threat. Amazing where do you learn your geography from let me take a guess Fox news. And by the way all your anger is towards the muslims. Really so who from somalia went and bombed western countries or who from Iraq went there. Still you see the west trying to occupy/interfere in these countries on the basis of lies.

            By the way muslims are not faring any better in India. They have the least amount of jobs in government area. There schools are underfunded and there poverty level is much higher then other communities. Even SC/ST candidates are doing better because of the courtesy of government exclusion of muslims. So muslims from India who are crying about Pakistan should just shut up and close there mouth. There is enough problem for muslim community in India to sort out.

  22. Paul Meola

    August 20, 2009 at 9:51 AM

    -Comment removed & author banned. Pls troll elsewhere

  23. Sam

    August 20, 2009 at 12:48 PM

  24. musa

    August 20, 2009 at 5:58 PM

    Assalamu Alaikum,

    May Allah reward the mujahidin in pakistan and grant them victory. amin

    • Aisha

      December 5, 2010 at 1:37 AM

      wa alaikum salam.


  25. Faiez

    August 20, 2009 at 11:27 PM


  26. rameez

    August 21, 2009 at 5:46 AM

    Although Mezba is right, I think, at this time of immense turmoil in the Muslim world, documenting the atrocities committed by Pakistani army against Bengla Deshi is a lower priority.

    The immediate priority must be Pakistan. It is on a “deathbed” due to various factors. The government should be supported and strengthened in its current drive against Taliban onslaught. Muslim world is already in turmoil, nihilists are killing believers; just imagine if some of these get hold of the bombs.

    This may be the opportunity, finally, for us to be the bulwark , foster a stronger civilian government, and hold them accountable to the progress of people. May be 60 years were wasted as brother Hashmi says, but let us not waste the next 60 years.

  27. muslimah

    August 21, 2009 at 9:18 AM

    pakistan is a failed state. just admit it you pakistanis.
    i was totally taken aback by the statement ‘apologetic and submissive’. arent American Muslims the same? making excuses to justify their love and support of the country they live in?
    anyway pakistan needs to stand up on its own. idk if this is true but i heard that majority of the paki population are teenagers. recently there was a paki minister who complained that indian movies were destroying pakistani culture. now instead of blaming India, why not do something sonstructive yourself? maybe ban Indian movies? and stop the piracy that goes on? just ban all indian channels (it was propsoed before..but i guess the plan never went ahead becoz pakis believe in ‘freedom of speech’ lol)

    bro hassan: i am glad im not a paki alhamdulillah. though im not patriotic, i value my deen ebfore anything else..i still think im better off being an indian than a offense. but i hope pakis can solve their mess..and i do care as a muslim..

  28. Ronnie

    August 21, 2009 at 8:25 PM

    @ Hashmi

    Brother Hashmi; I agree with you on certain things, like the notion of sovereignty, wasted 60 years etc.

    However, you cannot accuse USA. They would not have done drone attack if Pakistani govt had done a good job of controlling the vast terrorist network operating there. Section of the army and even leadership is in cohort with the terrorist leaders according to various intelligence reports of various govts. Adm Mullen made nine trips to Pakistan in the last 3 months . So, you know the seriousness of the issue. As you are well aware, they do not do a drone attack on any other countries.

    Let us hope these issues will be behind soon thanks to the work of both countries. SWAT and even Punjab region were in danger of being taken over by the terrorists. It is in the best interest of Pakistan that the terrorists are destroyed. Otherwise they will eat your country. They are killing more people than the collateral damage of drone attack.

    Pakistan’s challenge is multi-fold. Terrorism has to be controlled if not eliminated. Further recruiting has to be nipped. And focus on growth and development. PAkistan has smart people, young population; there is no reason why they cannot join BRIC countries if the country and people could focus. The challenge is that all these have to be done in the next 5-10 years. Otherwise an opening for growth will be minimized because of the looming position and control of the Asian economy by China and India; both with huge populations, they will need all the growth and resources to maintain their quality of life. So, time is of essence; pragmatism has to win over many competing meaningless arguments you are all having, including the ones I see on this site.

    • GThomas

      August 22, 2009 at 10:27 AM

      @Hashmi @ Ronie

      Tend to agree. In fact, independence of Pakistan is more threatened by the internal terrorists and separation tendencies of non punjab-sindh provinces.

      Hope Pakistan with the help of other peace loving countries will be able to control this.

      Happy birthday!

  29. Nada

    August 23, 2009 at 4:00 AM

    Assalamualaikum..Nice article bro. Hashmi. Jazak Allah khair. May Allah show us a way through our problems. Aameen! It appears might is right. Nothing else matters. That is why its so essential to attain power. The Prophet (SAWS) prayed for Allah to make either Umar (RA) or Abu Jahl muslim, because he knew the muslims needed powerful men to lead them.

  30. Zaheer

    August 23, 2009 at 6:40 PM

    It is really pathetric to see what the “Land of Pure” has become! It is for all of us to lead PAkistan out of this abyss.
    Contrary to what many say on this site/subject; mixing religion with governing has done too much har.m. Military, ISI, MUllahs – all exploited this to the detriment of the peopel and country. Religion was supposed to be the glue- now everyday, Sunnis is killing Sunnis, Sunnis killing Shias, and Sunnis killing Christian poors. Military has taken over so amny times in 60 years. We dont ahve institutions. We dont have anything that we built. Still the visage of British leftovers.

    Most likely we will end up into four different countries; and the formation will be accompanied by another bloodshed of brothers killing brothers.

    I think this is what happens when we take our “personal “Allah” to public Allah; that we follow a system established in the middle of the first millenium in third millenium when borders disappear, free flow of people and skills happen, and IQ is more important than any other wealth or capability. Instead of schools and colleges and techniocal institutes, our Arabic brothers wanted us to build 40,000 madrasas. And see what it has taken us to!

    We do not have much time left. We can discuss RAmdan in a non-Muslim country, or ensuure there is a country to celebrate Ramdan! .

    • Suhail

      August 27, 2009 at 2:07 PM

      You know what you really have no idea what you are talking about.

  31. hafeez

    August 28, 2009 at 9:47 AM

    respected folks ,
    I would like to submit couple more things since there are questions about Islamic shariah.
    May be ,some folks do not know what exactly is meant by shariah.
    Shariah is a sacred guideline and series of regulations covering all aspects of human life.
    In my opinion it should be the order of the day for the world as this has been deviced by Allah for the entire mankind.

    The problem happens when shariah laws are implemented by people who do not understand the spirit of Islam. They start abusing the shariah . They start punishing
    and executing people without any consideration. they burn and dismantle women’s
    educational institutions in the name of Islam. They want to establish islamic law by force,
    instantly. They forget that any misguided society will take time to learn back their true
    Islamic values . They do not want to take the rout of educating people about Islam.
    All such things take time and a lot of patience . Instead , they act like dictators and severe punishments are handed to people without any counselling ,notices or second chances etc. The word forgiveness does not exist in their dictionary. No wonder the mention of
    the name of Islamic shariah frightens people.

    If you carefully look at the life of prophet of Islam (s.a.w),the most important seerah is selflessness , forgiveness along with mercy towards mankind. He forgave each and every
    Meccan after he conquerd them without any bloodshed. These Meccans had persecuted
    him and his followers for a twelve year period and were hellbent to kill them all.
    and there are examples after examples of his mercy and forgiveness throughout his life.
    Muslims must understand that what ever Rasool-Allah (s.a.w) did or said is all Islam.

    The shariah in the hands of some ruthless, retarded fantics is like the most precious
    jewel in the hands of mokeys. .the monkeys do not understand the value of jewel.

    Allah is merciful and likes people to be merciful with each other. When all of us will
    stand in front of Allah on the day of judgement , every single one of us will be concerned about our own salvation. How in your sane mind , would you not forgive your brother
    if you are hopeful of Allah’s mercy that He forgives your sins on that very very difficult day.

    Killing any soul without haqq is haram in Islam and Allah’s punishment is swift.

    (Now, for sake of Allah , do not compare yourself with non-believers. They are non-believers . They do not believe in a day when they will be asked to acount for what they did. They are in for a big surprise)

    I want that we, watch our own conducts and see if we can improve the condition of our
    own muslim brotherhood. May be, Allah will grant peace to the entire world as a result.


    • Suhail

      August 28, 2009 at 2:00 PM

      “The problem happens when shariah laws are implemented by people who do not understand the spirit of Islam. They start abusing the shariah . They start punishing
      and executing people without any consideration. they burn and dismantle women’s
      educational institutions in the name of Islam. They want to establish islamic law by force,
      instantly. They forget that any misguided society will take time to learn back their true
      Islamic values . They do not want to take the rout of educating people about Islam.
      All such things take time and a lot of patience . Instead , they act like dictators and severe punishments are handed to people without any counselling ,notices or second chances etc. The word forgiveness does not exist in their dictionary. No wonder the mention of
      the name of Islamic shariah frightens people.”

      Okay so according to you who are working on implementing the shariah really do not understand it. But you who have never worked on implementing it know it. I mean do you see the irony in your tone here and arrogance. Indeed Riya can destroy people.

      • hafeez

        August 29, 2009 at 9:08 AM

        Remember ,taliban ruled 95 % of Afghanistan at one time.
        They tried to implement shariah laws overnight.
        How they destroyed buddhist temples , and did all kind of crazy things.
        I can not believe you do not know that.

        The Ayas that you are talking about have entirely different context.
        Yes you are right :the honor, property and life of each muslim is haram
        on other muslims . I am against that also. But unless you deny, muslims are killing muslims en -mass in muslim lands. taliban are killing innocent people.
        do not you know the daily bombing that goes on in Pakistan.
        Iraqis are killing eachother by dozens daily in the name of shia and sunni.

        why cannot you see that .

        • Suhail

          August 31, 2009 at 10:03 AM

          Which Buddhist temples did they destroy? They only destroyed one of the statue of Buddha. What about when the Prophet(SAW) destroyed the idols of Quraysh of Makksh.

          Regarding there estabilishing the Shairh. They did it with success until the west went to war against them. So it is not me who misunderstood. It is you who do not know jack and claims to know all. It is a waste to discuss with you. Adios.

          • hafeez

            August 31, 2009 at 5:28 PM


            -Comment edited. No personal attacks. If you cannot discuss/argue without using disparaging language, pls refrain from engaging at all. Let’s focus on Ramadan

          • L Mirza

            August 31, 2009 at 8:35 PM


            People like you will accelerate the cancer that has affected us -muslim religion in generala nd muslim people in particular. You may be living in a hunky-dory world. You can sit there and believe everything is Ok until the cow comes home. There will not be an Islam if we get it away from the illiterate mullahs. And, the 40,000 madrasas we have aint going to produce space engineers.

  32. Onyx

    August 29, 2009 at 5:32 AM

    Yeah…that’s right America is evil for murdering those tribal terrorists… so what. we should all hand out medals to the taliban for the thousands of Pakistanis they have murdered? What the hell is wrong with you people? You spend the entire article gesticulating about America, but totally ignore far worse criminals, namely the Taliban thugs and their Al Qaeda flunkies. May the all burn in hell with Baitullah Masood.

    • shoeb k

      August 29, 2009 at 11:26 AM

      I agree with Onyx and Hafeez and Ronnie.

      We have to take the country away from these terrorists and terrorist sympathisers like Suhail. There is nothing Islamic about mass killings and suicide bombings. Pakistan will be lost if we do not do anything.

      • Suhail

        August 31, 2009 at 10:12 AM

        LOL you guys should apply for job with Rush Limbaugh. No wonder we muslims are in such a bad state with back stabbers like you in the ummah.

  33. L Mirza

    August 29, 2009 at 1:29 PM


    People like you are destroying Islam through your blind support for Taliban, Al Queda etc. Islam does not need any enemies with followers like you!

    i find it onerous you do not find any fault with Taliban, Al Queda etc. How can you criticize what bro Hafeez said? he said te right thing!

    • Suhail

      August 31, 2009 at 10:10 AM

      Where did i say i support Al Qaeda. Show me.

      Secondly there are a lot of fault with Taliban but still they tried to impement the shariah while your freaking government is ruling with secular laws which Allah has said that whoever implements anything other than Allah has revealed has done kufr and dhulm. But you don’t understand it.

      Do you really know your Islam or you are just following what you father told you Islam is.

      • LMirza

        August 31, 2009 at 11:21 AM


        I am a Muslim; but unlike you I believe in love and compassion. Youa nd your cohorts are taking Pakistan to a bottom from which it will not recover. Today, they killed 40 army recruits. And you say everything is alright. That place is full of terrorists who are destroying Islam pulling it back to a primitive land.

        You and your likes are bent on seeing the destruction of ISlam; believe me , if we continue like this, we wont need any non-Muslim to sidebar us. We will do ourselves.

        What has the fru– country achieved in 60 years? Other than poverty, destruction, and a group of fat rich army men?

      • Shoeb K

        August 31, 2009 at 2:12 PM


        You are a destructive “fundamentalist” Suhail.

        If Umma is Darfur where Sudanese kills Sudanese, where West Pakistan rapes East Pakistan, where Pakistanis kill Pakistanis, where Iraquis kill Iraquis, where anarchy runs over from Somalia to Pakistan; I rather be out of that Umma! It is time for peace and rethinking how we exist in modern state. Do we want to be in a country like US or UK with all its freedoms, or do we want to be in a country like Saudi Arabia or for that matter, even Pakistan? Are we adaptable to democracy? (in our adopted countries we have been able to; but why not in our own countries??) Are mullas too powerful there? Do we find we cannot oppose them? All these have to be sorted out.

        • Suhail

          August 31, 2009 at 4:29 PM

          You really are blaming all the problems within the Ummah on the muslims themselves.

          I am not even from Pakistan first of all. Where was your love and compassion when you guys butchered tons of people in Bangladesh by your own secular army. This same army which is said to be fighting a war against terrorist bombed a mosque and killed innocent girls inside and no Pakistani came out to street to preach love and compassion. But suddenly all your love and compassion has come out. Where was love and compassion when Iraq was carpet bombed. when civilians were dying of drone attack?

          Where was that love and compassion when MQM terrorist where running on the streets of karachi killing people left and right. Let me tell you one thing. TTP may not be better but it is not worse than the people who are ruling there today.


          Yes i am fundamentalist because i believe in what Allah has revealed. Regarding all your idiotic comments. Let me tell you one thing. Before Gulf war was Iraq a country at the brink of destruction? Who started all the wars in Somalia? Have you looked into other African countries who have nothing to do with muslims e.g. Rwanda? Why are they killng so much? Who was the one who invaded Iraq with a lie?

          Now regarding your citation of US and UK. So yes they have relative peace at home but they create a mess elsewhere in the world. Do you want me to even point that out to you?

          -Comment edited. No personal attacks. If you cannot discuss/argue without using disparaging language, pls refrain from engaging at all. Let’s focus on Ramadan

        • hafeez

          September 3, 2009 at 2:25 PM

          There is no comparison of Kaaba (the Baitullah and Baitul Ateeq ) that was occupied by the 365 idols worshipped by mushrekeen of Mecca to what mulla Umar did to
          ancient artifacts of buddha . Buddhist claimed that they did not worship idols and
          it was only the sign of their civilization. there are many many images of virgin Mary and Jesus all over the msulim world. and so are of other religions .

          Rasool Allah destroyed the idols because they were in Bait-ullah .This is the
          original home of Allah on this earth that syedina Ibrahim and his son syedena
          Ismail reconstructed .There is another such “house of Allah ” in heavens known
          as Baitul Mamoor , where malaika are continuosly doing Tawaf.

          What the whole world knows that Taliban , when came into power braught a degree
          of security in their country .People were hopeful and optimistic among all muslim circles . But soon , when they started executing and punishing their adversries in
          northern alliance and others that disageeed with them ,things started getting worst. No society can sustain on revenge after revenge cycle. (Of course , the northern alliance were the same kind of people). We were expecting Taliban to be better because they were islamic people .They suddenly stopped women from work and education. the world saw the hijacking of the Indian airline aircraft that landed in Afghanistan and what followed.

          The Taliban were given 2 to 3 years by Allah . They could have shown the compassion and mercy to people that is really the hallmark of the sunnah of
          Rasool -Allah (s.a.w) but Mullah Umar did not have those values in his mind.
          It takes a lot of perseverance to bring about a social change that will last .

          He took Osama bin Laden as his house guest. .When the Americans asked him
          to give up Osama the mulla refused . He told the Americans that “this is our house guest and we will not return” . Osama , rightly or wrongly was a fugitive that the Americans wanted . A lot of warnings for several months were given to the mullah but he continued to refuse . American military action followed and ultimately Afghanistan
          was reduced to rubble in several installments. Today , a clown is sitting there
          as president whose jurisdiction is not far beyond his palace. Anarchy reigns,
          muslims kill muslims for nothing. Opium production is thriving .This opium is supposedly ,haram in Islam. the entire country has been brutalized .numerous
          people men, women and children have become disfigured and disabled.


          • Suhail

            September 4, 2009 at 10:48 AM

            It does not make a difference that they worship it or not. It is an idol and destroying it is nothing bad. Why are you so gung ho on a statue? What is its significance. Even if buddhist did not worship it in that place buddha is worshipped by Buddhists all over the world. Mushrik of Mecca also claimed that they did not worship idols but used them as intercessors. By the way have you even read the Seerah of Muhammad(SAW) because from your quotes it seems you haven’t ? Prophet(SAW) sent sahaba to various places around Mecca and Taif and destroyed idols there. It was not just in the Kaaba. Please go ahead and read on that.

            Before taliban came all your Northern alliance warlords where fighting with each other and killing scores of people all around them. The whole Afghanistan was a battlefield after the soviets left why because of the warlords from Northern Alliance. They even went to Mecca and swore at the Masjid Haram to solve there dispute but then they came back and started doing the same thing. Taliban came into power after that. They controlled 95% of the territory. They implemented the hudood of Allah which may be lacking a bit but still they were ruling by shariah.

            Regarding your allegation of not allowing women to work and educate then you gotta read the news more. Taliban said that they do not want Co-ed education so they have stopped those schools and only boys are educated there. They did not have enough resources to build schools for girls so they could not. If you read that time there was severe drought in Afghanistan and all your lovely Western enlightened civilisation was more caring of that Statue of Buddha than the lives of Afghans. Maybe buddha statue is more closer to them than lives of muslims.

            Regarding the hijacking of plane from India well for your kind information Taliban did not hijack it but were done by Lashkar. Taliban allowed them to land there plane there and why in the world they would allow India to do an operation in there land. India is a big supporter of Northern Alliance so why would Taliban allow India to do anything.

            My dear brother this lands belong to Allah(SWT) and he will give it to anybody he wants. If you read the story of the people of ditch in Quran than you will see that they all lost there lives but Allah said in the Quran that they were the victorious party and it was a major victory. Even if Taliban is removed from power it does not mean that in the eyes of Allah they lost. Victory is not determined in this world. It is the afterlife that counts. Why did the sahaba lost the battle of Uhud and were alomst routed at the battle of Hunain when Prophet(SAW) was within them? They should have automatically won. Also if you read Prophet(SAW) seerah again then you will see that in the starting he (SAW) was asking for nussrah from the tribes. Some tribes were ready to give him help but they asked him to give the power to them once he is victorious. Prophet(SAW) refused it and he said that this lands belong to Allah(SWT) and he will give it to who he wills but the afterlife is for the believers. Even to the Ansar when they agreed to give help to Prophet(SAW) he never promised them any land rather when they asked him what they will get in return he said i can promise you Jannah. So really it does not matter if they ruled 2 or 3 years. They tried there best to implement the laws of Allah(SWT). Allah will be the judge and who knows as it seems they may come back. Your claim that Taliban were given time of 2 or 3 years is totally your own imagination. Who told you that they were given this time limit? And just because they are not in power they have lost the blessing of Allah(SWT). How can somebody claim that unless he has the knowledge of unseen. I already demonstrated you above that victory always does not translate in worldly gains or power. Please ponder on what i wrote above.

            Osama was there before Taliban came. Secondly yes he was the guest of Taliban because he is a muslim and taliban allowed him to stay there. First of all why would they hand Osama to America just because they asked him to be handed to them. Are they american slaves that if america orders they do it. Mullah Omar said to them that give us evidence and we will hand Osama to a muslim country or we will punish ourselves. George bush flatly told them that he would not give any proof just give them Osama. They could not give a muslim to a kuffar. Prophet(SAW) has told us not to hand a muslim to a kaffir. Atleast they had the courage and gheerah to stand infront of US and say no to them not like the Tail wagging Pakistani leadership or even Arab leadership who will do anything for there western masters.

            Yes and all the war resulted from the arrogance of the Americans not from the actions of Taliban. India has been asking Pakistan to give them Maulana Masood Azhar for years why did not they just bomb pakistan and get him like how the Americans did. The Americans attacked Afghanistan because they knew there will be no resistance from Taliban as they are not a powerful force. What was the reason for Americans to invade Iraq? Can you care to explain? Taliban at one point was in good books of Americans until they gave the pipeline contract to the Argentinians. You can always argue that if 9/11 would not have happened things would have been different but who knows. This is the knowledge of unseen which only Allah knows. There is a lot of bloodshed in Rwanda why does not Americans care to go there and help them out a bit. Why were they so afraid of ICU in Somalia that they asked Ethopia to invade them? But they do nothing about Liberia, Rwanda and many other african nations who have more bloodshed in them.

            By the way they NATO just killed 90 muslims by bombing a fuel tanker. So much for the enlightened western world. They have killed millions of people in the last 100 years, eradicated 2 cities out of the world by nuclear bombing them, totally eliminated Native Indians, bombed Vietnam into oblivion and still they are the enlightened ones. Israel who kills Palestinians almost daily, killed 1500 people in Gaza, Carpet bombed the who city to rubble, Shabra and Shatila massacare and still they are good guys while the stone throwing Palestinians are the bad guys. It is amazing how this world if totally upside down and more amazing is when muslims also see it that way.

      • hafeez

        September 5, 2009 at 9:56 AM

        Brother suhail,

        I believe ,i will not be able to convince you. Neither do I wish to.
        My statements are only to set the records right for ordinary people
        who choose to visit this website. That the true picture of Islam is presented.
        and not the distorted one .

        The basic of the sunnah that most people ignore is the prophet’s (s.a.w)
        meccan period. The atrocities that were perpetrated on messenger of Allah
        and his sahaba are unparellel but for twelve long years the orders were
        to keep their hand tied and not to retaliate no matter how much suffering comes
        your way. Do you believe the muslims did not have the urge to immidiately
        retaliate. But messenger of Allah ordered them not to.

        The messege was to Never enter enter into combat if you are not strong militarily.He reteated into Medina and organized his people and his forces .It took very hard work, teaching and training people in eeman as well as
        military defences. Then all world witnessed him conquering Mecca with such
        an overwhelmig force that there was not even a combt And the next equally
        important messege is that you be extremely forgiving and merciful to people
        whom Allah granted you victory upon.

        Now ,probably it should make sense that throwing firecrackers on a building or two in world power USA ,or hijacking airplanes , taking hostages , etc do

        • hafeez

          September 5, 2009 at 11:04 AM

          do not impress people.
          The success of muslims can only happen thru following the
          principles of Islam and not any other way. Suicide bombing
          and the other means thes jihadists are using are completely un-islamic.


          • Suhail

            September 5, 2009 at 10:38 PM

            Brother this debate is going nowhere. I stated what i believe and may Allah guide me and you.

          • shoeb k

            September 6, 2009 at 10:57 AM

            Bro Suhail

            I hope and pray people like you cahnge and move in the peaceful path. We, not the west is the reason for the despicable condition the majority of Muslim brothers arnd sisters are in now. We can make this golden religion/culture disappear in 200 years through nthe nihilist activities pursued by a minority; or work towards development, art, writing, scientific accomplishments etc and make us respected. The choice is ours.

            Otherwise, we can continue in our denial mode and drink our own kool-aid.

            Happy Eid

    • hafeez

      August 31, 2009 at 5:13 PM

      dear brither Mirza,

      I am glad that there are sensable people like you.
      ordinary muslims are constantly being misguided by the the fanatics
      both among mullahs and their followers.

      My problem with these guys are that ,they are maligning the name of deen
      of Allah (s.w.t) Al-islam by their bad behaviors. And this is criminal to bring bad name
      to Islam by your bad deeds. Enemies of Islam were never happier.

      What happens to muslims is the direct result of their own conduct. you harvest what you sow.
      Nobody can help as a lot of people are so arrogant . The humiliation of muslims that we see today
      is consequence of their own behaviors . The condition will not change untill we improve ourselves.
      The muallh should be loudly and clearly talking against the crime of suicide and killing of innocent people,on each and every occasion when they address people .They , instead ,only blame America or others . They preach anger, hatred and extremism. I have rarely heard the mention of “Sabr ” from the mouth of the mullah in my own lifetime. That is the reason my priority is defending Islam.
      I only defend muslims if they are oppressed and mazloom not when they are zalim.

      Allah commands us to unconditionally obey “Allah and His messenger” and these are only two . There is nobody else to be obeyed . Allah, in His infinite wisdom , decided not to mention the name of a third person.The fact is that mullas of yahud were already ” selling ayas” of The Torah for the sake of a price. And christian mullahs were already preaching “that Jesus is the begotten son of god” while the Holy Qur’an was being revealed. Nau-zu-billah.

      Then there is conditional obedience to parents ,only, if they ask for you do Haqq .do not listen to them f they ask you to do injustice. There is reverence of ulema , but , only , if they preach you within
      the confines of Qur’an and sunnah. Do not listen to them if they go ouside of that. Suicide is
      completely and unconditionally prohibited in Islam .Killing any innocent soul is great sin.

      There is another terrible confusion about , how muslims should deal with non-muslims.
      people should know that there are few ‘givens” in this life. Fir’aun , namrood have been in all times .
      today they are known as world powers. We did not install them ,.Allah did .This is a have to work around these given while maintaining your eemaan if you are in non-muslim society.
      Muslims have to become politically active in these places and work hard to lobby and get congress
      to make laws that are fair to muslims , like Brother mirza sggested. At the same time try to be the
      good citizen and caring among all people. Then people will respect you.

      Another crazy thing that is being promoted is the hatred among shia and sunni. We must know
      that we have to accept as muslim, any person who takes the shahadah. there is, absolutely no justification to exclude the shia brothren from the fold of Islam. people who do this actually are enemies of the Ummah. Among all muslim countries , Iran is the only one that
      has some self respect. This shia -sunni hatred and violence is a great shame on muslim ummah.

      Establish , godfearing muslims to be your rulers in muslim lands if you live in a muslim country.
      And there are many many more things to do than just to bllame others. Say bye bye to your
      dictators or they will be your ruleres till their death and their sons will take over. This is true in
      many muslim countries particularly in Arab countries.

      extremism ,fanaticism and violence are hurting the name of Allah’s deen.


  34. hafeez

    September 6, 2009 at 9:02 AM

    respected folks ,
    It is our honor that Allah gave us the month of Ramadan one more time this year
    in our lives. May allah forgive us and our parents and give us wisdom to follow straight path.and He accepts our efforts.
    please remember your poor relatives and others who are less fortunate this Eid.
    may be a few dollars of your assistance brings happines to children who may not
    otherwise have anything to celebrate Eid
    I ask Allah’s forgiveness and your forgiveness for what ever excesses I did .
    All of you have a wonderful last ashara of Ramadan and a great Eid.


  35. Solomon2

    September 10, 2009 at 3:16 PM

    The drones thing is very, very unusual. Only in Pakistan does the U.S. employ drones exclusively for attacks on terrorists. In Africa, for example, manned warplanes are used for occasional strikes against Al-Qaeda elements.

    Apparently, in Pakistan the restraints are political:

    “Since 9/11, with 99 per cent of these strikes, the Pakistanis were consulted and they have to approve them” link

    Sure, the American might be lying. But for those of you who know Pakistan and its government, how likely do you think it is that the Pakistani government is telling the truth?

    “Pakistanis know all too well that if they give an inch to the U.S., the Americans will take a mile.”

    Americans working in Pakistan to defeat Al-Qaeda and its associates work in prison-like conditions, surrounded by Pakistanis accountable only to the Pakistani government, and able only to work through agents of the Pakistani government – which admitted a year ago that it was diverting American military aid (the price of such access) to the Indian front and actively supporting the Taliban. So America gave Pakistan billions, and Pakistan took America for a ride. So the idea of Pakistan giving America anything seems incredible, doesn’t it?

  36. Faheem Mirza

    September 23, 2009 at 8:58 AM

    On the sixty-second annual celebration of Pakistan’s independence, Pakistanis question how much independence they still have. The collectively wonder: how far off is the country from simply becoming a sock-puppet?

  37. fais

    September 25, 2009 at 10:56 AM

    lol… “Pakistan’s sovereignty”

    • L Mirza

      September 26, 2009 at 6:32 PM

      It does not have sovereignty, independence — na da..

      Theer are only two countries created out of significant bloodshed and money. –Israel, and Pakistan.
      Israel survived and thrived.
      Pakistan bloodshed was significantly more – both at partition and afterwards. The moneys spent on militarization unbelievable for a poor country..

      What do we have now? What did our forefathers think?

      Why weer we always under military? Why couldnt we develop systems and institutions?

      How do we do welll when we leave that wretched place? But cannot do anything therte..

  38. fais

    September 28, 2009 at 12:24 PM

    • Shoeb K

      September 28, 2009 at 8:17 PM

      That is really funny! We need that in these times!

      Other than words, and financial contributions to “clean” politicians, what else can eb done? How can military be clipped so a political democratic system be established..

      The latest in NYT is that ISI is hiding Omar Abdulla. I am sure there is some congressional provision to take him out wherever he is. .

  39. Shoeb K

    October 11, 2009 at 5:33 PM

    The army headquarters attack today shows how strong extremists are in South Punjab. On one side, I am happy that the corrupt army is exposed; on the other hand I am worried where all this will lead – total anarchy and chaos.

    Can we have a discussion string on what is the future of PAkistaN?

  40. Ghulam

    October 17, 2009 at 6:01 PM

    Well, it is neither independent nor a state! The Sheyek’s discussion on terrorism is apt. That is what terrorism does to a country. We are eating what we saw!

    Our decadence and decline started with Zia-al-Huq. A piuous man, he wanted every person, institution to be like him. And see where that took the country! The ISi and Military would not have been the hotbed of collaborators and sympathisers had he not “ilamized” the military. Now, everybody is watching over everybody else.

    Zia together with Saudi Arabia, destroyed probably the only Islamic country with some potential We could have been all India accomplished and more; because we both come from the same stock. Now, we are known only for terroris, a beggar state moving at 100 mph towards self-annihilation.

  41. L Mirza

    October 20, 2009 at 1:54 AM

    It looks like the question should be “Should Pakistan be Independent”…

    What an abyss after 60 years!

    Does it now have the institutions and structures to be an independent country that can eb governed thru democracy?

    Should it be a permanent dictatorship of Military?

    Or a theocracy?

    would like to hear alternative scenarios

    • Shoeb K

      October 21, 2009 at 2:18 AM

      The last few weeks events have shown how weak the governmental systems are in Pakistan. Our army only trained these people (taliban, JeM and all other garden varieties). Now we cannot keep track of them.
      We will never be independent until we declaw the army. They have taken over everything -land, companies, buildings. They have been amassing all these under the disguise of threat from India.

      Well, there is a sayiing – every country getts the government it deserves. We were not diligent enough; we let our country go through Zia Al Huq which set the foundation for todays calamities.

      Have we ever discussed why we could not institute a system of democracy while our neighbor has been perfecting it for the last sixty years in spite of its multiplicity of religions, languages etc. They have a Christian (foreign born) head of the ruling party, a Sikkh Prime Minister, a Christian Defence Minister, a woman President and people seem to accept in stride.

      We have been sliding from one crisis to another; from one lousy leader to a lousier leader. The whole world knows Zardari is 10%. Still, he is our leader.

      I cannot imagine any apt name for our country other than “Banana Republic”.

      We, the expatriates should take lleadership in changing our country.

  42. a true pakistani

    March 19, 2011 at 4:25 PM

    pakistan is my dearest country.i could not bear that anyone put a fingure on it.americans are bastered rascel discusting people.

  43. a true pakistani

    March 19, 2011 at 4:39 PM

    i love pakistan.

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