What Do We Do?

33 Comments

1. 

   iMuslim

   May 24, 2007 at 1:37 PM

   Bismillah hirahma niraheem

   Assalamu ‘alaykum wa rahmatullah

   If what you say in your entry is accurate, i cannot see it as being anything other than abuse, full stop.

   To be honest, if we put all the hoo-ha of the blog round up “discussion” aside (and that includes the hoo-ha i made), it is clear that no-one is against smacking, which in my understanding, is light physical discipline that may be required when a child is misbehaving, and ignoring all warnings. This type of discipline doesn’t leave scars, or bruising, internal injury, or cause long-term psychological problems. It’s just a smack, and we’ve all had one them before, no doubt.

   But abuse is clearly different, and beating (my definition of beating, which is extreme) children is different to smacking. If you cannot beat a Muslim adult (Hadd punishments excluded) who can defend themselves, how can you beat a weak, defenseless child?

   Wrt what should be done about the school, the community should try to deal with it sternly, within their own circles. It cannot go unchallenged, but to bring outside forces such as government agencies may cause more harm than good – Allahu ‘alim. Community leaders should challenge the school board, cut funding if necessary. If children are being abused, then it is an injustice and it cannot be tolerated by any decent human being. However, one must be absolutely sure that things are as they seem, before accusations are made. From what you say, it seems there are plenty of witnesses available to testify against the school.

   I pray that the problem is resolved swiftly, with the minimum level of disturbance to the community, and families involved. Ameen.

   Wa’salam

   Reply
2. 

   Ahmad AlFarsi

   May 24, 2007 at 1:40 PM

   Assalaamu alaykum,

   I have a practical question… more for Houstonites (Sr. Ruth, Br. Amad, Sh. Yasir, et al.)…

   How are the Islamic institutions of learning for children in the Houston area? Are there any? I dont mean a simply Islamic elementary school… I mean a place where kids go to memorize Qur’an, etc. How are they over there? How are the teachers? Do they employ this kind of unnecessary, mentally-disturbing form of discipline at all? (e.g. hitting for mistakes in recitation is abuse, whereas hitting (lightly) for disciplinary problems after repeated attempts with other forms of discipline is acceptable).

   I don’t want to send my (future) kids (inshaAllah) to hifz school to have them come back with mental trauma everytime they hear the Qur’an! My goal is to have them CRY from hearing the Qur’an for the opposite reason (LOVE for the Qur’an) inshaAllah… rather than out of mental trauma.

   Any thoughts? Jazakumullaahu khayran.

   Wassalaam,
   Ahmad

   Reply
3. 

   iMuslim

   May 24, 2007 at 2:17 PM

   Just remembered the ayah:

   O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do.
   ( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #135)

   And hadiths i just read, which seems to be applicable to the difficult situation you face:

   “A person should help his brother whether he is an oppressor or an oppressed. If he is the oppressor he should prevent him from doing it, for that is his help; and if he is the oppressed he should be helped (against oppression).” [Sahih Muslim, Book 32, Number 6254]

   “A Muslim is the one who avoids harming Muslims with his tongue and hands. And an Emigrant (Muhajir) is the one who gives up (abandons) all what Allah has forbidden.” (Sahih al-Bukhari)

   And two Q&A answers on disciplining children:

   Islam Q&A
   SunniPath

   Reply
4. 

   Ahmad AlFarsi

   May 24, 2007 at 3:42 PM

   Assalaamu alaykum,

   Br. Musa, your (hypothetical) anger is certainly understandable, and I think that mine would be even greater. But, I would put aside my emotions and think of the greater impact such an action (involving the police, etc.) would have on the ummah. I think the best way to resolve it would be internally. And if he (hypothetically) roughed my (hypothetical) kid up… I would just go and give him a good rougin up myself (at least when there is no Islamic justice system).

   Reply
5. 

   Ruth Nasrullah

   May 24, 2007 at 4:04 PM

   Walaikum asalaam.

   I see the point of not involving the authorities, but silence for the sake of saving face has kept women and children in abusive situations for a long time.

   What if the media or the authorities found out about a situation in which kids were being abused? They would blame Muslims all the more for covering it up.

   (BTW, the story about this madrassa doesn’t make sense. If a governmental authority had investigated the school, I wouldn’t think they would only take action if someone pressed criminal charges. But the larger question of whether or not we go to civil government for help is a separate issue.)

   Reply
6. 

   AnonyMouse

   May 24, 2007 at 4:19 PM

   @ sis Ruth: Apparently (and Allah knows best), the charges were dropped and the investigation closed when the people in charge of the school promised to change things. The sister of one of the students says nothing has changed, though.

   Reply
7. 

   iMuslim

   May 24, 2007 at 5:21 PM

   I see the point of not involving the authorities, but silence for the sake of saving face has kept women and children in abusive situations for a long time.

   Hmm.. you are correct. It is difficult. I mean, it’s not just about saving face, but rather, preventing something worse. Can the authorities be trusted to deal with the matter in a just manner, without any kind of prejeudice? I think, if the school does not respond to calls from communtiy leaders to shape up, they should be threatened with criminal prosecution. They cannot be allowed to get away with this.

   Reply
8. 

   nuqtah

   May 24, 2007 at 6:46 PM

   Yes, the problem is real, and the abuse is real. However instead of playing the ‘blame the madrasah’ game, where the holy institution itself is scapegoated, why not talk about how such a problem can be rectified?

   The problem with most people today is that they rant on and on about how bad islam or muslims are, yet they dont offer any solutions?

   We need to shift the way we think about these issues. Talkin about how bad some madrassah is, isnt going to help much. What would be useful is to discuss how we can change such a problem.

   Reply
9. 

   Umar Lee

   May 24, 2007 at 6:52 PM

   There is a tendency in the Muslim community to try and cover up problems and not talk about them and when something does arise to hush-up. I will give you two examples of this from the past.

   There is a a masjid in Brooklyn that has a mostly Arab congregation and there were repeated instances of sisters being beaten and abused by their husbands and when they would go to the masjid and complain they got ZERO help from the masjid. The brothers who were beating the sisters were more than likely friends of the the people running the masjid and brothers stick together.

   So what happened? The Muslims never gave the sisters any help so a local womens organizations, comprised of mostly liberal Jewish women, started hiring Arabic speakers per the request of the local police precinct who didn’t have anyplace to refer these battered women to who didn’t speak English.

   Another example is when a Muslim boy was reportedly sexually abused by a teacher at a school in the Midwest. As soon as this was found out, and I mean that very moment, Muslim brothers began attacking the kid and his family and defending the brother and making all kinds of crazy allegations without even having the most basic facts.

   Thats how the Muslim community tends to settle the problems internally; by ignoring it or blaming the victim!

   If you want to take care of it yourself that is understandable; but understand as Musa said, that will more than likely mean you will be getting locked-up.

   Reply

10. Pingback: New Blog and Thought Prooking Piece and Discussion « Umar Lee

11. 

    Baba

    May 24, 2007 at 8:53 PM

    As salaamu alaykum involving the police isn’t a good idea,but we can not sit by an let this take place if what is said is the truth.I wanted to take my sons alhamdulillah over seas to study an they are young.For this reason I can’t unless i go an stay as well.By me being Muslim American I don’t take kindly anyone putting there hands on my children until they have proved to me that they love them as much as I do for the sake of Allah(swt).If you don’t want the police involved people have to step up before someone get hurt an it get to the police an the media anyway.Allah(swt)knows best

    Reply
12. 

    sister

    May 25, 2007 at 12:30 AM

    Assalam w alaikum wr wb wm
    This IS NOT a waste of your time. check the websites for urself!
    Please send this message to all your contacts!!!
    If you dont…. A Muslim(s) around the world could be receiving false information about Islam which you know about, so I would send this messages as soon as u have read it.

    Beware of the following websites:

    websites removed

    moderator note – i have removed the website and publication names because the only way they get publicity is when we pass them around and give them attention. In any case, this is a chain email that was probably created so that Muslims can help, ironic how that may sound, market for the websites.
    -ibnabeeomar

    Reply
13. 

    Anon.

    May 25, 2007 at 5:37 AM

    I’m being serious here (please don’t make fun of me for it)- what is wrong with beating women, islamically? Not saying I would necessarily do it, but I’ve never read anywhere it’s haram. Please, no knee-jerk reactions: Abu Bakr, maybe you could explain things to me?

    Reply
14. 

    Hamdi

    May 25, 2007 at 8:48 AM

    Maybe someone with more knowledgeable should answer that question, but obviously you shouldn’t beat your wife. The Prophet sall Allahu ‘aleyhi wa sallam never did it according to a hadith and the only thing that is allowed is to do the kind of thing where you jokingly push/shove someone when he/she says something shocking or funny (I hope it’s clar what I mean), in terms of how much hurt you are allowed to inflict I mean. And even this has conditions.
    So doing what I presume happened in the case, which is abuse, obviously isn’t right.
    I hope someone can elaborate.

    Reply
15. 

    veiled_muslimah

    May 25, 2007 at 12:28 PM

    Assalam Alaykum

    Interesting post [and blog]. Maybe if the community got together and did something about it as a whole, it would make a difference? I do not know how things happen in that part of the World, but if something like that were to happen [I’m in Dubai] in any of the Schools here or to any of the Students, the School would be closed down and the teachers would be questioned.

    There is a difference between abuse and discipline in Islam.

    I know a family, where the Father would beat his Sons for absolutely no reason, or for little things. And this was not just light beating, he would use belts. Now the Sons have reached a point where they are not afraid of getting beaten. Infact, they do whatever they want to do and when their Father threatens them with beatings, they are not really bothered so it is become ineffective.

    Reply
16. 

    Cafe Alpha

    May 25, 2007 at 1:48 PM

    People have it exactly backwards when they try to avoid publicity and public condemnation of the problem.

    If you solve this problem without public awareness, then you’ve only solved it for your own child if that. The problem will come back, unless there is public pressure to keep the institution running well.

    Embarrassment isn’t your enemy, it’s a tool that you use.

    The absurd result of worrying about “the reputation the ummah” is that only kafir can solve their problems and thus the the ummah get a reputation for being too backward to solve it’s problems.

    Reply
17. 

    Anon.

    May 25, 2007 at 4:43 PM

    ‘The Prophet sall Allahu ‘aleyhi wa sallam never did it…’

    Simply isn’t sufficient proof that it is wrong. He (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) never beat a slave, but we know that it is OK to do so under certain circumstances.

    Reply
18. 

    Hamdi

    May 25, 2007 at 5:16 PM

    I didn’t say that it’s sufficient proof. Just look up the tafsir of the ayah where this issue is discussed and see what the mufassirun said about how much damage you are allowed to inflict and you’ll see that it’s not allowed to abuse someone. Again, if I’ve understood it correctly, we’re talking about hurting someone as much as you do when you playfully shove/push a person while joking around. It’s not supposed to cause damage.

    Reply
19. 

    UmmZahra

    May 25, 2007 at 8:12 PM

    Well I think the issue goes deeper then just this school or a school. The question is how do Muslims value their children? What is the proper way of parenting or caring for children?

    I’ve seen Muslimahs shout, hit, and slap their children like it was nothing. In fact, I’ve seen some hitting their infants over trivial things (a baby pushed a folded chair down, one incident in a masjid no less).

    What are realistic expectations of children? I was at a friends has and we had a lengthy debate on spanking. We placed a simple scenario. Her 2 1/2 year old daughter drops a glass and it shatters. A month later, she does the same. She said she’d spank a child. I find that absurd. A child is still developing coordination at this age. Is it realistic to expect a child not to accidentally break a glass ?

    This same 2 1/1 year old playfully kicked the mothers leg. (You know the way kids fidget while standing infront of someone). The father immediately shouts at the child.

    I have other friends who would say “Yes we beat our children. We were beat as children and look at me now.” Or the most common, “It’s just our culture.”

    I see Muslims (not all of course) belittling, humiliating, and physically punishing (to the extremes) their children. I really think we need to be educated on raising our children. How do we educate them, discipline/guide, and really what can we expect? Is it really realistic to expect a child to sit still for long periods of time? to not have mistakes while learning something new?

    Sorry to keep rambling, but I really think we need to learn how to be better parents and care givers for our children.

    Reply
20. 

    Umm Reem

    May 25, 2007 at 8:48 PM

    “I was at a friends has and we had a lengthy debate on spanking. We placed a simple scenario. Her 2 1/2 year old daughter drops a glass and it shatters. A month later, she does the same. She said she’d spank a child.”

    hmm…so what happens when an adult breaks a glass….OOps cuz I break a lot :)

    Reply
21. 

    UmmZahra

    May 25, 2007 at 9:08 PM

    Exactly Umm Reem!

    We also had the topic of another sister who’s 9 year old always forgets the lunch. The same sister said…well I forget my lunch to so it’s okay.

    Reply
22. 

    Amad

    May 25, 2007 at 9:25 PM

    ASA… I didn’t read all the comments thoroughly so excuse me if I am repeating any of what I am about to say…

    Being on the outside, I feel that there are two alternatives available for those that can influence/affect the situation from the “local-outside” i.e. outsiders who are in proximity, like for instance Sr. mouse’s dad and other concerned parties:

    1) The “Low-Key” approach: Give them a time-line, may be a month or so to clean up their act (literally) or face the music of authorities. Then FOLLOW-UP on the the ‘threat’ IF the follow-up is not satisfactory.

    2) The “Heavy-Key” approach: In this approach, the “local-outsiders” get more involved and requires more of their time but keeps Muslims more involved and a greater part of the solution. So, the committee of “local-outsiders” write up a summary report, perhaps even a page, with a list of milestones at certain interval levels. So, for instance:
    a) Hygienic improvements to ‘acceptable’ specs. as determined by a follow up visit by the committee by XX date.

    b) Standards improvements to ‘acceptable’ standards by YY date (later than XX)

    & and so on and so forth.

    The milestones should be reasonable and achievable. In the absence of an acceptable goal achievements, the authorities would be notified and follow up action passes on to them.

    As for authorities, let’s get this straight: we are in a country not run by Muslims… We pay taxes for protection by police, firefighters, etc… it is our right to expect and use such services; nothing wrong with it IF the benefit exceeds the harm).

    IMHO, it is much better to shut such a school than to cause psychological and even health scars on the lives of children. Perhaps if we leave them like this, a few of them may turn out like our friend Isaac Schrödinger, the never-was-really-a-Muslim-qadiani-apostate who has linked to this post to show how ‘bad’ our madrassas are. I guess Columbine must have been a great place since no Muslims ran it.

    Anyways, not to get off on tangents– we do NOT need to be afraid of petty ‘hide our dirty laundry’ motivations. We need to be MUCH MORE concerned about OUR CHILDREN than OUR REPUTATIONS. In fact, instead of throwing a negative light about squalid conditions in the school, a proactive response by the Muslim community may throw positive light in that Muslims were engaged in reporting it. I think Br. Ahmad, if someone broke into your house, even if he was a Muslim, you would be not be thinking about ‘Muslim community reputations’ to prevent you from dialing 911 immediately.

    I hope someone will take action sooner than later before these kids get hurt further.

    Br. Ahmad forgive me if I was a little edgy… May Allah forgive me for any mistakes.

    Reply
23. 

    Cafe Alpha

    May 25, 2007 at 10:08 PM

    In fact, I’ve seen some hitting their infants over trivial things (a baby pushed a folded chair down, one incident in a masjid no less).

    A german psychologist named Alice Miller studied a few of the worst monsters of Nazi era and came to the conclusion that corporal punishment of babies and very very young children can create evil.

    She alo suggested these practices were common in Germany at the time and contributed to the country being willing to commit atrocities in WWII.

    “Am Anfang war Erziehung”, 1980
    English translation:
    “For Your Own Good”

    Reply
24. 

    Ahmad AlFarsi

    May 26, 2007 at 2:18 PM

    Assalaamu alaykum,

    I think my point was greatly misunderstood… it is not about “hiding dirty laundry” at all. I will write a more detailed reply later inshaAllah when I have time.

    Wassalaam,
    Ahmad

    Reply
25. 

    AbdulHasib

    May 26, 2007 at 3:19 PM

    As-salaamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatAllah,

    Um.. just a helpful suggestion.

    Can the people who are trying to make a point, actually go ahead and make their point.

    It’s almost a task trying to sift through all the superflous, seemingly didactic, and tacit sentence structure to actually find, much less decode, your respected points.

    My point: Just get to the point -).

    JazaakumAllahukhairan

    Reply
26. 

    AnonyMouse

    May 26, 2007 at 8:06 PM

    Sorry about not having responded to any of the comments yet; I’ll get to that tomorrow, insha’Allah…

    Reply
27. 

    Didi

    May 26, 2007 at 10:55 PM

    If you sent your children to a non-muslim school and they were subjected to this level of abuse, you would alert the school board immediately. The same should apply to muslim schools. These people are beating your children. Alert the authorities.

    I understand that you’re concened about putting muslims in a bad light, but if this is how you treat your children, you deserve all the negative publicity you get. All the media is going to do is report the truth, and if you’re so concerned about that, then maybe you should abandon your medieval ways and move into the 21st century, where people don’t feel that they have the right to beat each other senseless for tiny things like having imperfect diction.

    If you live in western countries, you have to abide by western laws. It’s illegal in western countries to beat children, so these people are breaking the law and should be locked up. QED.

    Reply
28. 

    Um Abdullah

    May 27, 2007 at 9:01 AM

    Bro. Amad an excellent comment.

    Its completely about hiding dirty laundry. Its also about not trusting outsiders which is common in many insular communities. But we live in 21t century. Commenters here sound like the mafia.

    How about the culture of sexual abuse in Madrassas, which is real. It still exists because no one wants to talk about it or get anyone in trouble. Well its a pathetic excuse and when we see our children leaving Islam left and right (as many are although we are in denial about it) we will know why. More importantly we as a community we will be held accountable on the day of judgment for not protecting children, who are given to us as a trust from Allah.

    Reply
29. 

    Abu Bakr

    May 27, 2007 at 2:54 PM

    I dont think it can or should be salvaged: the men who are running this school have amply proven they cannot be trusted to take care of children.

    My point: shut it down

    Reply
30. 

    AnonyMouse

    May 27, 2007 at 5:22 PM

    JazakAllahu khair to everyone who commented… this is such a serious matter, and I fully intend to do something about it (whatever it is that I can do).

    Please make du’aa that we’re able to stop this injustice and cruelty, and that we have the strength, patience, courage, and faith to withstand the numerous obstacles we’ll face in doing so…

    Reply
31. 

    Umm Layth

    May 27, 2007 at 6:48 PM

    as-Salaamu `alaykum

    Stand strong. Replace the trouble makers. Tell parents to take care of their children and not to whine when they are to blame for leaving them there.

    Reply
32. 

    doobiedoo

    May 29, 2007 at 3:34 PM

    I definitely disagree with solving this probably “internally” and I don’t buy into the argument of not airing the dirty laundry because it’ll give people something else to complain about muslims. Embarrassment and public humiliation work wonderfully when it comes to solving problems caused by adults. I think the public authorities like social services should be notified and involved. The Catholic Church is a prime example of what happens when you attempt to solve your problems without notifying the proper authorities because they don’t want to air their dirty laundry. And look how well that worked :sarcasm:

    Reply
33. 

    Ibrahim

    June 13, 2007 at 6:05 PM

    I would also take the “board of directors” to task—those who established the school and brought such teachers from Pakistan or wherever. I agree with people that this school should be shut down to stop such abuse and to prevent this from becoming a fodder for those who would love to make this an “example” of Islam.

    Also, I just want to point out to people to read some sentences of the post with caution. Some, especially people born and raised in the West, could get the idea that the “Pakistani model” of a madrasah is what that has been described here. Yes, abuse is real and that happens in some madaaris back in Pakistan, but the level of abuse and other filthy conditions described here is exception rather than a rule. So, be careful how you word the post. If I weren’t from a Muslim country, I would think shoot, this is how Islamic schools are run there. These madaaris serve a noble mission and almost all people come out of them respecting and loving Islam and Quran and sunnah and not being scared of reciting the Quran! If that weren’t the case, many people who come out of these madaaris in Pakistan would despise reading Quran and following Islam, which isn’t the case.

    I can bet the teachers running this madrasah are villager/’arabi/non-worldy and in fact illiterate. Yes, they might know some Quran and tajweed and some rudimentary stuff on Islam, but they don’t have proper understanding of this religion—the education, the knowledge, the mannerism, the maturity that Islam helps develop. People who have lived in Pakistan would know what I mean.

    And, just to clarify—this is not a discriminatory remark on villagers. But, even in hadith books you read that an ‘arabi came and started relieving himself in the masjid, etc. etc. The point is if you come from an uneducated environment (like most villages might) and you only stay at the fringes of knowledge of Islam (like learning to read Quran (not understanding), some basic stuff about how to pray, etc.) you can end up with a distorted understanding that can lead to applying old, uncivilized mannerism in teaching Islam, such as the case here.

    Reply