So Very Tired
Dear brothers and sisters in Islam, and specifically you in North America who will understand this best.
I have a problem.
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I know where I came from, I know who I am, and I have a pretty good idea of where I want to go.
But I am tired.
Tired of the Muslim Identity Crisis Conferences. Tired of Muslims in America conferences. You’re a human being that was created for the sole purpose of worshipping the One who created you. Get over it and move on.
Tired of confused pseudo-intellectuals who keep trying to legitimize their deepest, darkest insecurities under the cover of academic acceptance. Women can’t lead men in prayer, and homosexuality will never be acceptable.
Tired of the explicit condemnation of Muslim terrorists that comes without the explicit condemnation of all terrorism, particularly against Muslims. Can the Ummah of Muhammad please unite, the Ummah of the likes of Umar ibn al Khatab, Khalid ibn Waleed, Sad ibn abi Waqqas, and Hamza please find the necessary pieces of spine required to call George Bush et al what they are?
Speaking of which, I’m tired of the games Muslim politicians and political organizations play to put a position forward that deludes no one except yourselves for believing they’d believe you.
Tired of victim-culture fatwas that turn every situation into a necessity, and that coddles our ummah into weakness for the sake of ease and some overarching goal of dawah that never seems to be properly articulated in simple, coherent language.
Tired of Islamic teachers of any calibre who complain about the adab and khuluq of people and are badly in need of it themselves, in all forms of communication.
Tired of all the acronymed organizations and their leadership, and their inability to establish an agreed upon method for moonsighting. Really. All the opinions are correct, so please, just put them all in a hat, draw one out, and if you all unite on it, we’ll follow it. Even me. I promise.
Tired of the word Islamophobia. Who came up with this ridiculous word? Whoever it was, they need to be shot…with a super soaker. I want to curl myself up in the fetal position every time I hear that word.
Tired of you telling me we need fiqh of minorities, and that we should combine prayers in the work place. This isn’t Muslim Spain, we have rights that can be exercised – please stop cowering in the corner, or at least stop trying to get us to join you there.
Tired at your exasperation over Barack Obama not wanting to talk to you during the election. Who would want to talk to a pack of sniveling lackeys who have no respect for themselves and act as though they are embarassed at the religion they profess to follow?
And I’m tired of you acting like Obama’s theMahdi incarnate. We only rooted for him because we wanted to stick it to GWB, not because we like his politics of homosexuality, late term abortions, and worst of all, restarting the war in afghanistan.
I’m so, so very tired of it all. And if you looked at the list above, you may be tired of it as well. But you know what? I’m tired of you too.
Tired of you sitting behind your computer, writing in a style that makes you sound like ranting and raving lunatic.
Tired of you complaining about everything and doing absolutely nothing.
Tired of the online chickenhawk hate brigade who hates everything about America and happily pay their taxes after clicking “Submit” on their latest online rant against it.
Tired of people who call for Hijrah and never go, citing the reasons of the people who are against hijrah – “But dude, there are no ANSAR on the other end, otherwise, like, I’m sooo there!” It’s called planning, genius, see lessons of the Prophet’s (SAW) escape from Makkah for a primer on how to plan AHEAD.
Tired of your open hatred of all nonMuslims / kafirs in the name of al wala w’al bara. Yes, I said kafirs. Does that make you feel better? Then I’m also tired of your pettiness.
Tired of your delusions of mind and intention reading. Don’t you see the potential aqida problems here?
Tired of your PDF refutations. I have absolutely no idea who the author of the document is, or his credentials to say and interpret as he has. Please tell me what you understand, or don’t bother.
Tired of you taking every fiqh issue and making it an aqeedah issue such that if it’s not in accordance with what the scholar du jour spoonfed you yesterday, that person must most certainly either be off the manhaj, a sell-out, or both.
And I’m tired of you not knowing anything about the fundamentals of Islam, like, for example, the Seerah!
Tired, tired, tired.
Did you like the list above? Really? I’m tired of you too.
Tired of you expecting everyone to follow you blindly and stupidly.
Tired of you looking down your nose at people who are far more qualified to deal with logic, analogy, and argumentation and telling them, “But you don’t know Arabic.” Yeah, I don’t know latin either, but if I have a medical condition, my doctor will still explain it to me, and if he’s any good, he’ll tell me to get a second opinion if I have doubts.
Tired of your partisanship, and tired of you calling it a mercy. Really? Coulda fooled me. Visit my community on the first and last day of Ramadan, I’ll show you mercy.
Tired of you expecting me to disconnect my mind on fiqh, believe the most ridiculously esoteric ideas about God, and then strive for spiritual ecstacy. Are you kidding me?
But I’m not done yet, oh no – I’m tired of you too.
Tired of you prioritizing your career, your family, and all your weaknesses over the worship of Allah.
Tired of you complaining to scholars about what a victim you are.
Tired of you saying you need to live in a house. You liar. You can rent a house – you just don’t want to lose money. Admit it.
Tired of you looking for easy fatwas rather than picking yourselves up by the bootstraps and working at being a Muslim, and struggling with the challenges.
Tired of your back home mentality that keeps the child you think is fair from marrying an African American. The only thing black here is your heart.
Tired of you believing your donations entitle you to run the masjid.
Tired of the way you run the masjid. It stinks, figuratively and literally.
Tired of you complaining about the poor ethics of Muslim governments, while you have the same ethics, the only thing separating you and them is the scale of the violation.
Tired, tired, tired, so very tired.
The ironic thing of all this is that despite all that, I still love you for the sake of Allah. As I said to begin this letter, you are my dear brothers and sisters in Islam. I have my flaws, I have my weaknesses, and I am by no means perfect. At any point in my life, I could have fit into multiple categories in that complaint list.
But do you know why I’m tired? I’m tired because we have so many issues, and I feel obligated to do something about all of it. I want to fix it. I want to make it right. You probably do too.
In the end, we are here to worship Allah. I don’t know a lot, but I know that much. All I can do is ask Allah to guide us all to come together, to be the people whom He Loves, to be people whom He will be pleased with.
#Culture1 month ago
Abu Hayyan
February 24, 2009 at 1:24 AM
I’m tired of this shallow rant filled with facile arguments! :D
Really, some of these issues are more complex and deeper than this, and Muslim scholarship has devoted more to it than you give them credit for.
The solution is thoughtful engagement and discussion, not irritation and exasperation.
A Nightingale
February 24, 2009 at 1:25 AM
Wow. Absolutely wonderful. Such a perfect and comprehensive list of any and everything wrong with Muslims today. You took the words right out of my mouth, and also slapped me in the face at the same time. Much appreciated, by the way! :)
May Allah relieve you and this Ummah of its tiredness and sickness. May He fill us with the energy and passion to be better Muslims and cleanse our hearts of impurities, ameen!
SaqibSaab
February 24, 2009 at 1:29 AM
Love the ending. Because just when you begin to think that the post is a never ending rant of epic proportions, it all comes together in the last three paragraphs. Ameen to the du’as.
sincethestorm
February 24, 2009 at 2:08 AM
Well I’m going to start a tired thread cause I’m tired too.
I’m so tired of people having a wedding with music and cutting it off for 10 minutes for the Quranic recitation. And then jacking up the music again.
I’m so tired of people bickering and labeling each other as ISNA, ICNA, Quran and sunnah, Sufi, Deobandi…
I’m so tired of people raising money for masjids but not buying any air freshners.
I’m so tired of people coming to the masjid for a free dinner and NOT picking up after themselves!
I’m so tired….well its late so I’m just tired lol. great post.. ;)
Tauqeer
February 24, 2009 at 2:59 AM
Ameen.
Pingback: Sick and Tired « Seeker’s Digest
Osman
February 24, 2009 at 5:39 AM
forgive me but that rant has Amad written all over it, haha.
Abdullah
February 24, 2009 at 8:12 AM
you will not be tired if you just concentrate on the abilities and qualities that Allah has given you and use them to help the humanity. if everyone does just that, all the problems will be solved and no one will get tired.
Hassan
February 24, 2009 at 8:53 AM
You forgot to mention knee-jerk takfiris. They are really annoying.
aSister
February 24, 2009 at 10:39 AM
Bismillah, Alhamdulilah, Wa’Salatu Wa’Salamu A’la Rasul Allah
…until we all change as individuals, Allah wont change the people around us or our leaders.
As a wise person once said, sometimes darkness come’s over that He may make you aware of the value of His blessings upon you.
soOOoo Alhamdulilahi Rabil Alamin :D
Lets start with a smile and ourselves!
gohar
February 24, 2009 at 11:20 AM
Well said. The pendulum has swung too far to the other side in recent years.
Ayesha Fatima
February 24, 2009 at 12:04 PM
Ameen to your dua . The most repeated verse in the Quran is “which of the blessings of Allah swt do you deny?”[surah Rehman].When we start to count all the blessings of Allah swt , then also we will be tired .
salaam
Anisa
February 24, 2009 at 12:22 PM
Asalaamu Alaaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatu
Love this post.
Tired of you complaining about everything and doing absolutely nothing.
Something we all suffer from!
Tired of you expecting everyone to follow you blindly and stupidly.
Tired of you prioritizing your career, your family, and all your weaknesses over the worship of Allah.
Tired of your back home mentality that keeps the child you think is fair from marrying an African American. The only thing black here is your heart.
Those stuck out to me for some reason. Great post. Change starts with ourselves. So let’s get to work!
BarakAllahu Feekum
Wa’alaykum Aslaaam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatu
Dawud Israel
February 24, 2009 at 12:27 PM
Hehe. :D
Inni uhibuka fi-llah
So true. But according to psychology research, releasing anger only results in increasing that anger…so if that is the case, remember that!
Anyways, I’m frankly tired of ranting articles (especially the ones here on MM). This article talks about people who rant- and yet it’s a rant itself. I used to do the same, I think most of us do, but it’s such a thorn on my heart. Makes you think you did something…and is just a release on our anger and make us feel good?
Let’s focus on the khayr and priorities…
Ahmad AlFarsi
February 24, 2009 at 1:46 PM
Alhamdulillah, the author must be tired of me then. I have open hatred of the kuffar due to alwala wa albara. I hate them for their kufr, just as I would hate a murderer for his murders, except more so. I hate the kufr AND the one who commits it. (Alhamdulillah we are not like the Christians who claim to hate the sin but love the sinner). I firmly believe that holding such hatred (for kufr and its people) is an important issue of aqeedah, just as important as loving Islam and its people.
And of course, I will mention the necessary disclaimers:
– Such hatred is specific religious hatred (i.e. the hatred of the individual is only because of his kufr, and we do not hate the individual “through and through” as a person), as such, it is also quite possible for one to combine natural love of the kafir for other reasons (such as blood relations) with the hatred of kafir for their kufr. (see the article by Sh. Salman alOadah for clarification of this point).
– Such hatred is in the heart, but, on our limbs and tongues, we are still to deal with kindness and justice (birr and iqsat) to those who do not fight us.
I will end with the statement of the sahaabi, ibn Umar (may Allah be pleased with him):
Ahmad AlFarsi
February 24, 2009 at 1:48 PM
By the way, here is an excellent article on the above issue (alWala wa alBara) by Sh. Younus Kathrada (who also resides in the West :) ):
http://www.islamicawakening.com/viewarticle.php?articleID=1464&
MR
February 24, 2009 at 2:15 PM
Anonymous articles are always weak.
Algebra
February 24, 2009 at 2:29 PM
Aslamu-alaikum:
“Anonymous articles are always weak.”
Yes i somewhat agree. Sometimes credibility is need. WHO IS THE AUTHOR?
salam
Amatullah
February 24, 2009 at 2:55 PM
Ameen to the duaa. I completely understand where the article is coming from, we need a reality check…but, the tone it was written was not appealing to me personally.
So now that we’ve come to the conclusion that we’re all sick and tired…what are we gonna do about it? I hope there’s a more delightful part two :D
Algebra
February 24, 2009 at 3:15 PM
Aslamu-alaikum:
Contrarily, I APPRECIATED THE TONE.
I am not promoting speaking in that tone a habit. However, sometimes it is needed. The article cut through the bull and got to the heart of the matter.
anyway…..
salam
AnonyMouse
February 24, 2009 at 3:29 PM
If we have a problem with the tone, it’s because we’ve all been mollycoddled far too much. Quite frankly, I’m just as sick and tired as the author is! Why do we always have to be saccharine and “sensitive” when talking about these issues? Why do we strive for political correctness all the time? Come on people, toughen up. What a bunch of wusses we all are, if we can’t handle having the truth said to our faces with no holds barred!
Amy
February 24, 2009 at 3:51 PM
Tired is how I feel before I lay down and fall asleep… Probably not the best state to be in during troubled times…
MR
February 24, 2009 at 4:03 PM
I’ll quote myself again in response to those who say that we need to “toughen up”
always
:-D
Atif
February 24, 2009 at 5:29 PM
Personally, I don’t think it’s enough to just raise awareness (or remind) of issues without calls for action. That’s my gripe about this article; there’s little call to action.
P.S. For those who think I’m being hypocritical by complaining and not calling to action myself, my complaint does implicitly call for action by implying that all complaints should be followed by calls for action. :)
mcpagal
February 24, 2009 at 6:05 PM
Tired of you complaining about everything and doing absolutely nothing.
Wow, this elegantly sums up how I feel! [about this article, that is… :P]
The poor word TIRED has been drained of all meaning now.
Amad
February 24, 2009 at 6:09 PM
Osman:
I am sick and tired of being wrongly attributed and misunderstood :)
Anyways…. Nope, not me… my rants aren’t usually that deep and lengthy.
And by the way, I am also sick and tired of lengthy posts and even more tired of lengthy 2-pager comments.
Amatullah
February 24, 2009 at 6:35 PM
@Anonymouse: ukhti, I don’t think it’s a matter of toughening up, but a matter of saying things in a manner that will be accepted by people. People will be more receptive to advice if you speak in a less harsh tone.
I love what the article is saying, and everything mentioned is completely true -may Allah ta’ala bless the author, BUT it didn’t do what an article of this nature should have: ‘riled’ us up to act, rather as you can see from the comments…most people became caught up in the tone of the article instead of the content.
And Allah knows best. I wonder how this would be if spoken! I can see it making a cool PSA.
AnonyMouse
February 24, 2009 at 6:43 PM
Oh yes, I get that… however, I think it’s interesting to note that these days we are so resistant to taking advice/ learning things in a way that doesn’t flatter us and make us feel ‘good’ about it first… there are actually many ways of giving da’wah and teaching, as we can witness in our history: wasn’t al-A’mash famous for his cutting sarcasm and harsh methods of teaching?
So even though this is an anonymous article by an anonymous writer, we should still take the good from it and benefit from the lesson it’s trying to get across instead of quibbling about how mean it sounded :)
mg
February 24, 2009 at 6:49 PM
i think the point of the ranter was to point out what most people aren’t willing to profess publicly. Admitting the problem is the first step.
i like the rant … with all the other ranting out there, this was one of the better ones in recent times…
AsimG
February 24, 2009 at 7:34 PM
Tired of reading this halfway thru…
Abu Sabaya
February 24, 2009 at 10:03 PM
Although I didn’t read through each complaint listed, I did like the overall tone that picked at the spinelessness, compromise, and inferiority complex that seems to have affected even the most educated and well-respected du’at in this country and the West in general.
It would be great if we could turn this into a positive trend, and see more articles aimed at reminding Muslims of their honor, strength, and power instead of their weakness.
This, I believe, is the road to recovery.
P.S. Excellent comment, Ahmad al-Farsi, about wala’ and bara’.
Amad
February 24, 2009 at 10:48 PM
At the same time, we should not forget some of the spineless “still-to-be-du’at”, may Allah forgive them and increase them in wisdom, in the East, who spend day and night slandering and back-biting the du’at in the field, in the West. Honor and strength should be coupled with respect, wisdom and action to be truly effective. Otherwise, their message is as hollow as those that they are condemning to be.
QasYM
February 25, 2009 at 12:18 AM
I am sick and tired of being sick and tired…
abu abdAllah Tariq Ahmed (Associate)
February 25, 2009 at 12:50 AM
bismillah walhamdolillah. i read a lot of the comments, but i could not read the whole article. not sure if you can see it, but here’s the link to my response.
tired of counting black dots.
AnonyMouse
February 25, 2009 at 2:01 AM
Keep an eye out within the next few weeks for a series on that very same subject, insha’Allah.
Faiez
February 25, 2009 at 2:04 AM
Sounds like the author (who I am going to guess is a sister) needs some Red Bull.
Al-Madrasi
February 25, 2009 at 2:16 AM
It was a good reality check on ourselves…
btw, I am tired of reading rants and the comments too :)
may Allah guide us
mystrugglewithin
February 25, 2009 at 10:29 AM
I am dumbstruck and embarrassed :(
Abu Sabaya
February 25, 2009 at 2:00 PM
We can all use Forgiveness and wisdom, and I see where you’re coming from. However, these criticisms* stem from a legitimate and valid feeling of being let down.
* I use the term ‘criticisms’ because speaking against individuals whose misguidance or innovation is carried out in public is not classified as neither backbiting nor slander, as al-Ghazzali, an-Nawawi, ash-Shawkani, etc. point out in their respective writings on the topic.
I certainly look forward to it.
Amad
February 25, 2009 at 2:50 PM
Br. Abu Sabaya,
I agree that the loop-hole that you mentioned exists. But I am sorry, and I think you will agree, that legitimate back-biting, even if we were generous in its application here, is not equivalent to slander. This is especially the case when the “misguidance or innovation” is a matter of opinion of some people, where not everyone or even the majority explicitly agree, which should automatically make people resort to the private channel FIRST. Neither is legitimate back-biting equivalent to intention-policing. Nor is it an opening for the sort of abusive, insulting and childish banter that has become commonplace from some of the so-called students of knowledge, and their cliques. Furthermore “legitimate and valid” feelings are not sufficient, in fact nothing could be sufficient, for some of this nasty behavior.
We all know well that this is exactly the sort of excuse/loop-hole that the SPUBs and TROID crowd has been using for their attacks on shayookh and students of knowledge. Now, it is just another set of people with a different name, engaging in nearly the same type of behavior. There is a certain level of respectable discourse that the lay-people, like me, expect from our Shayookh and the students of knowledge, because we would hope that knowledge leads to respect and a recognition of a person’s own lack of comprehensive knowledge. I am sorry but some people have failed this test on many accounts. And by the way, people notice it. Even in criticism, people can separate gold from copper, based on how it is conducted.
May Allah forgive all of us, and increase us in wisdom and mutual respect, especially the ones who are supposed to be students of knowledge. Because people of knowledge are more looked upon and up to, than the laymen.
bedou
February 25, 2009 at 3:52 PM
Excellent piece, mashaAllaah. If you think the piece is a rant, you might have missed the point.
Abu Sabaya
February 25, 2009 at 3:54 PM
My initial point exactly, my friend.
UmmeAmmaarah
February 26, 2009 at 3:31 AM
Dear Rant-er…
We Rant-ees already have enough to drown our spirits – family troubles, the economy, our ilm-lessness, ‘Islamophobia’ ;), Gazza, Somalia, Chechnya, etc., and so forth and so on………. Honestly, i am more inclined to visit ‘islamic’ blogs/sites when i’m feeling low, for some pepping up, some Ilm-rush, eeman-rush, hope-rush and and the other sundry ‘rushes’ I’m unlikely to find elsewhere, so maybe you should address one issue and it’s solution at a time, rather than just ranting, because i don’t see what good it is likely to bring this way. On the other hand, maybe if we were trying to do something about these issues, and u made us realise that there are so many millions of problems we need to solve, that our individual efforts are kind of pointless, we would give up even that and our efforts would only deccelerate. Yes, we can’t do without Du’a and beseeching Allah, and that’s a given. May Allah make us a stronger and unified ummah.
AsimG
February 26, 2009 at 1:40 PM
Insha’Allah if I ever write an article I’ll make sure people know it’s me so people will vandalize my facebook wall.
SO many ideas…so little time.
brother
February 26, 2009 at 5:35 PM
Pardon me, was it my misunderstanding or is this only directed towards NA Muslims? How is this any different from Muslims in the East?
The post is full of vast generalizations that clump all Muslims into one category.
I’m tired of Muslims making such vast generalizations. They dont get us anywhere. : )
iraaqi
February 26, 2009 at 11:15 PM
Maybe your tired because you haven’t slept? I know i’m tired as heck bcs of that:)
Siraaj
February 27, 2009 at 2:29 AM
Maybe it’s just me, but I thought I saw practical solutions within the majority of the rants. I suppose it’s just a matter of focus and perspective, wallaahu a’lam.
Siraaj
Sister
February 27, 2009 at 2:55 AM
*Smile*…I only scanned the entire article and found it very refreshing. It made my day! I feel kind of the same these days…well, maybe not at such a sophisticated level…but you get the point! More articles of such nature must be written…then maybe I won’t feel so tired of being a loner who is so tired!!
maghi85
February 28, 2009 at 11:28 AM
focus on positivity
watch the Secret or read the book
J
February 28, 2009 at 2:00 PM
As-Salam Alaykum.
I am questioning the belief that we must hate all of the Non-Muslims. From my own reading of the Quran, I have understood that we must hate only those Non-Muslims who openly fight us for our faith, drive us out our homes, and oppress in the land.
Brother Ahmad Al-Farsi said:
Well, I read the summary of what Shaykh Salman al-Oudah, and it says:
http://muslimmatters.org/2007/03/29/part-2-between-natural-and-religious-loyalties/
The above is basically what I believe. (The PDF link is not working.) Can anyone counter this? Not with words of scholars, but definitive proof from the Quran or authentic hadeeths? Even the verses I see them using as a proof are actually a proof against them, such as the beginning of chapter 60 of the Quran, which is a very big proof against them, in my opinion.
I know that the first thing that will happen as that people will condemn me of heresy, revisionism, blah blah blah. I could care less. I have given up the idea of ever being accepted or tolerated by those sort of people.
Furthermore, I am only tentatively holding the view I do, and I am open to new ideas if presented with proof and evidences. I want this discussion to be a learning experience for first and foremost myself.
Wallahu Aalim.
-PDF Link has been fixed. -editor
Ahmad AlFarsi
February 28, 2009 at 6:26 PM
J, isn’t the statement of ibn Umar (which I quoted) evidence enough of the understanding of the sahaabah on the issue of love and hate? Remember, it is a principal of Ahl usSunnah that the sahaabah did not hold any differences in aqeedah (and this is certainly an issue of aqeedah).
What did you think of the article by Sh. Younus? I felt that was an excellent summary of the basics (where as Sh. Salman’s article, on the other hand, is aimed more at clarifying a specific issue of alwala wa albara (the permissibility of natural love) rather than teaching the basics).
Amad
February 28, 2009 at 7:57 PM
Shaykh Salman is one of our scholars of today’s time, and I think the application and nuances are more important than just compiling basic texts, because they provide a proper context and a proper sense of what is going on. It is precisely the taking of verses and hadith out of context and in a purely literal form that we have people who have gone to extremes. I think, and I believe most of us agree, that there is quite a bit of confusion about proper application and understanding of wala wal bara… and I hope that our shayookh will take the time to properly formulate a deeper contextual response to this. We have to understand the balance, its nuances and its context for people living in the West.
J
February 28, 2009 at 8:09 PM
As-Salam Alaykum, brother Ahmad al-Farsi.
You quoted as follows:
I think that you are super-imposing a doctrine onto a text. The above quote doesn’t seem to say anything about Muslim vs Non-Muslim, or anything of the sort. It simply says that we love those who obey God and hate those who disobey God. I totally agree with that. I don’t see how disobeying Allah [swt] is exclusive to Non-Muslims at all; rather, Muslims disobey Allah [swt] as well.
This is just what I get out of the text. Again, my view is tentative and I am open to correction. I hope that this discussion can help me learn.
As for Shaykh Younus’s article, I did look at it: but what do you find in it that was a strong proof from the Quran or authentic hadeeths? Basically, I want a strong proof from the Quran or the authentic hadeeths. Why don’t you (or someone else) provide that (Quran or hadeeth only!) and then I will respond by either (a) explaining why I don’t think this justifies the doctrine of hatred towards ALL non-Muslims, or (b) I’ll concede that I am wrong. I am not averse to either result; I just want to learn and this style will let me explain all my doubts.
Fi Aman Allah.
J
February 28, 2009 at 8:14 PM
Also, can someone provide the proof from the Quran or authentic hadeeths where it talks about “religious love” vs “natural love”, or is this just a latter day development?
hmmm
February 28, 2009 at 11:10 PM
Br. Ahmad Al-Farsi gave a quote from ‘Abdullah ibn Umar radiallahu anhu, as recorded in Ihya Ulum ad-Deen which mentions “hatred in my heart for those who disobey Allah”. Let us also take into consideration the quote of another Sahabi which further clarifies this topic.
Perhaps this is where Shaykh Salman al-‘Awdah is coming from when he says:
http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=474&main_cat_id=22
hmmm
February 28, 2009 at 11:36 PM
salaam aleikom brother Ahmad AlFarsi,
I had to comment on this statement:
What you are trying to convey is correct – that the sahaabah never differed on any certain or unequivocal matter (irrespective of whether it related to beliefs or practice). However, they did not have this distinction between aqeedah and fiqh. To quote Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah:
Taken from: http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=29&sub_cat_id=2107
*Such distinctions can be introduced for the sake of facilitating teaching and dividing learning into different subjects, but not for the sake of deriving a methodology.
*As a matter of fact, one can actually list a few issues of aqeedah wherein the sahaba differed, but they were minor issues open to interpretation.
*This doesn’t necessarily relate to al-Walaa wal Baraa’, but I wanted to point it out so people did not acquire an incorrect understanding regarding the methodology of Ahlus-Sunnah.
wa Allahu ta’aala ‘alam
J
February 28, 2009 at 11:46 PM
Brother Hmmm…Jazakh-Allah khair for your excellent post. But can you please translate the Arabic you quoted:
عن أبي قلابة، أن أبا الدرداء مرعلى رجل قد أصاب ذنبًا، فكانوا يسبونه فقال: أرأيتم لو وجدتموه في قليب ألم تكونوا مستخرجيه؟ قالوا: بلى، قال: فلا تسبوا أخاكم، واحمدوا الله -عز وجل- الذي عافاكم، قالوا: أفلا نبغضه؟ قال: إنما أبغض عمله، فإذا تركه فهو أخي
صفة الصفوة: 1/640، حلية الأولياء: 1/225.
“*As a matter of fact, one can actually list a few issues of aqeedah wherein the sahaba differed, but they were minor issues open to interpretation.”
Yes, like the issue of amulets (taweez) from the Quran. (Although I don’t think it’s really that minor.)
hmmm
March 1, 2009 at 12:25 AM
Here is a translation which appears to be based on more than one narration of the event.
J
March 1, 2009 at 12:31 AM
^ ^ ^ ^ Whoaaaa, that’s like a huge point in favor of the ‘hating the sin not the sinner’ idea. Although brother Ahmad al-Farsi’s quote seems to be a point in favor of the opposite argument. Hmmm…
But in any case, I don’t think either of these quotes have anything *directly* to do with hating all Non-Muslims…one can only make *indirect* arguments with them.
Ahmad AlFarsi
March 1, 2009 at 1:58 AM
to clarify one thing, akhi J, when I mentioned hatred of the kuffar, i definitely mean non-Muslims who openly reject the truth once it is presented to them (not those who are simply ignorant of the truth)… i.e. those who will be ahl un-Nar. In that sense of the word ‘kafir’, one can say for certainly say all kuffar are disobedient to Allah, and in that sense do we hate the kuffar for their kufr.
The above narration you mentioned, hmm, in any case doesn’t seem to deal with the sin of kufr (it seems the person mentioned in the narration was a Muslim). It is certainly conceivable that the above narration can be interpreted to say that Abu Darda’s love of him for his Islam overrode the lesser hate that would come from some sin smaller than kufr. It needs not contradict the statement of ibn Umar.
Certainly this issue is not a difficult issue to understand, but certainly, there are nuances and context to be considered. and Allah knows best.
J
March 1, 2009 at 2:33 AM
Brother Ahmad al-Farsi (may Allah [swt] preserve you), you said:
The bolded part leaves much to interpretation. I personally feel that most Non-Muslims in America are ignorant of Islam, and what they do know of Islam is worse than lack of knowledge; it is outright lies and misinformation. Therefore, if we say what you said: then shouldn’t we say that we don’t hate all Non-Muslims but only those who openly the reject the truth when it is clearly presented to them, and also make it clear that most Non-Muslim Americans don’t fit this description?
I engage in dawah, and I am telling you: people don’t even know the basics about Islam…they don’t know Who Allah [swt] is; some of them think we worship the moon, most of them don’t think we worship the same God as the Jews and Christians, etc.
My point is this: the extreme conservatives in our Muslim community–and I think you all know who I mean–seem to be making sure its well known that we hate the kufaar, full stop. That gives the impression that we hate 98% of Americans, whereas in reality–if we go by what you said in bold–then we would only hate like 5% of Americans. There is a huge difference! So it’s important to clarify!
In any case, I find it very easy to reconcile what I said earlier to what you are saying now: we hate those who openly reject al-Haqq, and the way we see that is by the people who oppress Muslims, fight us for our faith, etc.
An interesting discussion.
Fi Aman Allah
hmmm
March 1, 2009 at 12:45 PM
Only Allah knows who will be from Ahl un-Nar. We don’t know that unless they have been named specifically in the Qur’an and Sunnah. Take a look at these comments by Sh. Yasir Qadhi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1m7-8AtrWo#t=53m35s
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2846912343385719080&hl=en#13m24s
First, the narration of Ibn ‘Umar also speaks of ma’siya and not necessarily kufr when he says “and no hatred in my heart for those who disobey Allah”. Disobeying Allah includes the fasiq.
Second, Abu ad-Darda stated that he hated the individual’s actions. This is similar to the verses in the Qur’an which mention having baraa’a from someone’s actions.
Surah ash-Shu’aara, v. 216
فَإِنْ عَصَوْكَ فَقُلْ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِّمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ
{Then if they disobey you, say: “I am innocent of what you do.”}
And Surah Yunus v. 41
وَإِن كَذَّبُوكَ فَقُل لِّي عَمَلِي وَلَكُمْ عَمَلُكُمْ أَنتُمْ بَرِيئُونَ مِمَّا أَعْمَلُ وَأَنَاْ بَرِيءٌ مِّمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ
{And if they reject you, say: “For me are my deeds and for you are your deeds! You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do!”}
wa Allahu ‘alam
Ahmad AlFarsi
March 1, 2009 at 5:19 PM
br. J, i should also add that if someone is actually making shirk, even if they are ignorant of islam, that would certainly be abhorred as well.
br. hmmm, i meant that we know that those who die upon kufr will be in the fire. of course we don’t know if a specific individual kafir will go to hell, because he might repent before he dies (or on his deathbed), and he might have had an excuse before Allah if he never was given dawah to.
i actually wanted to make a few clarifying points, that inshaAllah will make many thing easier to understand.
let’s begin on the points where there is no confusion whatsoever inshaAllah:
1) we all agree that we absolutely abhor the kufr of the kafir and the shirk of the mushrik greater than any other action. there is no greater crime than shirk and the shirk of the mushrik is the most abhorrent action imagineable.
2) we all agree that we love the best for any human, be he Muslim or kafir. we love nothing more than for a kafir to embrace islam and thus be granted true happiness and reward in this life and the next. We love the best for any person, and want nothing but the best for all people inshaAllah.
from there it seem the confusion is what does it mean if one says ‘we hate the kuffar for their kufr.” in order to clarify this point for myself as well, today, i approached the shaykh that i am studying under and i asked him for clarification. i told him that i was having a discussion with some brothers and that some of them were saying that we hate the kufr of the kafir, but not the kafir. I asked him, ‘”are we not to hate the kafir as well?’ he replied: “yes, but why do you hate him? for his kufr or as a person?” i replied: “for his kufr of course, since he is the one committing it, we don’t hate him as a person” he replied: “then it seems there isn’t really a disagreement here, you are both saying the same thing”
After some reflection, it seems to me that this is almost more of an issue of semantics and what you define as ‘hating an kafir only for his kufr’, more than a real disagreement. as i said above in my very first comment on this issue:
in that case, there is no real contradiction between the aathaar mentioned above, nor between what sh. salman said and what other esteemed contemporary shuyookh have said on the matter (along the lines of what i wrote).
br. J and br. hmmm, what do you think?
and Allah the most high knows best.
hmmm
March 1, 2009 at 6:20 PM
Wa alaykum salaam br. Ahmad al-Farsi,
I agree 100%. There really is no confusion about the issue of walaa wal baraa here, the problem is that when we translate certain terms into english we lose the accuracy and misunderstandings occur. No one ever said that baraa means you should have an aggressive and hostile relationship with peaceful non-muslims, but that’s what people (especially non-muslims) think when phrases are translated without clarification. We are commanded to actually maintain positive friendly relationships so that they see the beauty of the message of Islam, and that command does not in any way contradict the fact that we despise disobedience to Allah and free ourselves from such misdeeds. When someone commits a sin or disbelief, we hate that aspect of his persona/character responsible for committing the sin or disbelief, which is really the same thing as saying we hate the action.
Ahmad AlFarsi
March 1, 2009 at 6:30 PM
alhamdulillah akhi, i believe that your bolded words which i quoted here is what i was trying to convey all along.
J
March 1, 2009 at 9:28 PM
As-Salam Alaykum,
My dearest brothers Ahmad al-Farsi and hmmmm….first, I want to say I am enjoying this conversation a lot, and benefiting from it. I am nowhere near the level of knowledge of you two, and I only wish to learn. Forgive me for expressing my doubts, but perhaps by doing so, I can clear them up, insha-Allah.
Dear brother Hmmm said:
Well brother, I am still confused. Forgive me. I have a few issues still:
1) If people say we hate the kufaar for their kufr, then don’t we also hate the faasiqoon for their fisq? If so, then why do people say “we hate the kufaar” full-stop, which conveys an extremely intolerant belief to Non-Muslims. By limiting our ire to Non-Muslims, we are guilty of bigotry, are we not? And don’t we see this bigoted attitude in the extremist youth who literally think that they are superior to the Non-Muslims? I remember reading some comments by one such youth who said that he likes to “shoulder bump” Non-Muslims because they are inferior and he is superior…and then saying things like “the worst of the Muslims is better than the best of Non-Muslims.” But how true is that if what Ustadh Yasir Qadhi said is true, namely that we don’t know our own fate in the next life…we may be resurrected as disbelievers, right? Since our belief was simply from our tongues and not from our hearts…whereas a Non-Muslim may be a believer by his heart and not his tongue and thus be superior to us?
2) If we love people for the good in them and hate them for the evil in them, then does this rule not also apply to Non-Muslims? So shouldn’t we say “though we hate Non-Muslims for their non-belief, we love them for the good they do”, instead of simply “we hate Non-Muslims”, full-stop? The Quran itself said that the Prophet [s] loved Abu Talib, who helped the Muslims greatly. Don’t we love the good in those self-less Non-Muslims who dedicate their lives to eradicating poverty in the Muslim world, who volunteer their time to teach our kids, etc?
3) In any case, I have still not yet firmly accepted the idea of hating the kufaar at all, even with all the above conditions and stipulations. I would still like to see the proof from the Quran and authentic hadeeths. I ask this because I have read the Quran multiple times and from my own reading, it seems that the Quran says to hate/oppose only those who drive us out of our homes, fight us for our faith, etc. I don’t want someone to quote something and then have to explain it; I don’t want to have to make logical (or not so logical) conclusions based on a text; I want the text to say it clearly for me, just like everything else in our religion is so clear. I rejected Shi’ism because of the fact that my own reading of the Quran tells me that we pray only to Allah [swt] alone. No matter how institutionalized the doctrine is in Shi’ism, I could not accept it because the Quran is a “clear book” which expounds our doctrine for us. We don’t super-impose our doctrines on it! So again, if you can provide proof, that would be nice. Until then, I am left with my doubts and keep thinking it is just a doctrine that was invented later on.
Lastly, I just want to say to brother Ahmad al-Farsi: I am not really asking about the doctrine of hating the sin and not the sinner. This just came up later in our discussion. I am rather saying that my own understanding–based on my reading of the Quran–is that we hate/oppose/fight those who fight us for our faith, drive us out of our homes, etc., but we can be kind and nice to those who don’t do that. I also don’t really acknowledge the difference between hating someone in your heart and being kind/nice to them….To me, that’s like saying “well, you can be kind and nice to kufaar, but don’t be generous to them.” I mean, it’s just picking a word that wasn’t used and claiming that there is a difference. Furthermore, the Quran itself says that the Prophet [s] loved Abu Talib, we are to love our wives who might be Non-Muslim, etc. As for this distinction between Religious Love and Natural Love, I’d again like to see the proof of that.
Fi Aman Allah
Anti-Jaysh
March 2, 2009 at 6:28 AM
EDIT:
Dear brothers and sisters in Islam,
Today, I decided to be a bad boy (or girl). I chose to exemplify the worst manners in sharing my ideas, and so all the benefit and points that I could have said in a better fashion have been edited out.
In the future, in order to have my points and arguments heard at MuslimMatters, I will do my best to call to the Sunnah by using manners from the Sunnah rather than manners that are bid’ah.
Thanks for your time. Insha’Allah, I’ll do better next time.
Lovingly yours,
Pro-Jaysh
gohar
March 2, 2009 at 7:44 AM
You’re being out of order anti-Jaysh. I (unlike J) have no doubt that the worst muslim is still (ultimately) better than the best non-muslim, but you’re wrong to call someone an idiot for asking perfectly innocent questions. Also knowing he’s a fellow muslim should be even more reason for you to cut him some slack.
hmmm
March 2, 2009 at 11:00 AM
Salaam aleikom brother J,
Your understanding is correct. And the points (#1 and #2) you made about the confusion of certain phrases is correct, which is why I mentioned earlier the problem of using certain phrases without clarification.
Now do you agree with the fact that we must despise any act of disobedience towards Allah? Or that when someone commits a sin or disbelief, we despise that aspect of his persona/character responsible for committing the sin or disbelief, which is really the same thing as saying we hate the action (since one’s behavior is part of what defines their persona/character)?
J
March 2, 2009 at 4:30 PM
As-Salam Alaykum.
Dear brother Gohar: Jazakh-Allah Khair for your kind words. With regard to this here:
I do not doubt this either. My issue is with the interpretation of this statement. Is not a Munaafiqh considered a Muslim in this worldly life? The Zakat is taken from them, they pray in our congregations, and they even marry Muslim women, etc. Yet, we know that munaafiqoon are worse than the kufaar, correct? Won’t the munafiqoon be in a worse position than the kufaar on the Day of Judgment?
So my point is: yes, I know that the worst true Muslim (isn’t mu’min a better word?) is better than the best kaafir, but is there not a difference between a Muslim in this worldly life and a Muslim in the hereafter, and a Non-Muslim in this worldly life and a kaafir in the hereafter? Couldn’t a Non-Muslim in this worldly life be a person from the People of the Interval, pass the test in the hereafter, and thus be higher than a person in this worldly life who is a Muslim by tongue but who is a munaafiqh in the heart?
Is this all correct what I am saying? If not, please explain to me what is the incorrect part.
My issue then is this: when we say statements like “the worst Muslim is better than the best kaafir”, then this is a bit misleading, no? Shouldn’t we explain that by this we mean a Muslim of the heart, not just a Muslim of the tongue? And not just a Non-Muslim of the tongue, but a kaafir by the heart?
Dear brother Hmmmm, you said:
If what I said is correct, then I really think that the extreme conservatives in our ranks are doing quite an injustice to Islam by simply saying “we hate Non-Muslims”. It is really quite wrong of them to just say that.
With regards to what you said here:
Let me be clear: If we stipulate the entire thing like you did, then I do not think that the concept is bigoted at all. So from that angle, I am cleared away. My only issue though is–no matter how fair or balanced the doctrine is–I just want to see the proof for it from the Quran and the words of the Prophet [s] as authentically transmitted to us. So from a logical standpoint, I get what you mean. I am just asking for the proof. I am not saying the proof is not there; it might be. I just haven’t seen it and would like to, in order to end the doubt in my heart.
Lastly, I want to thank you for your posts. They have been very helpful.
Fi Aman Allah
hmmm
March 3, 2009 at 1:07 PM
Wa alaykum salaam br. J
I agree that such statements do not do justice to the concept of walaa wal baraa, are inaccurate for the numerous considerations mentioned earlier in the discussion, and quite misleading because they suggest something that the scholars never intended – aggression and hostility towards peaceful individuals. The problem is in translation and using english terms that come with their own added connotations that end up shifting the meaning.
I am quite hopeful that the shuyukh and du’aat we have today in the west are more cognizant of the communication gap and the reasons for such misunderstandings and will be able to articulate the concept of walaa wal baraa with this level of greater precision and accuracy for the muslims living in non-muslim communities. We do not need “modernists” or “progressives” who will try to dismiss the concepts or twist them to be in accordance with western secularism, but true scholarship that will do justice to the texts and convey the meaning in a language that is comprehensible to the people.
The proof can be found in many of the evidences pertaining to walaa wal baraa. Here is one example from the Qur’an:
ولكن الله حبب إليكم الإيمان وزينه في قلوبكم وكره إليكم الكفر والفسوق والعصيان
{But Allah has made beloved to you the faith and has made it pleasing in your hearts and has made hateful to you disbelief, defiance and disobedience.} (Al-Hujuraat, v.7).
So this establishes that we are to hate any act of disobedience, disbelief/ingratitude, sin. These actions do not occur in a vacuum, but are rather perpetrated by individuals, so we hate their commission of such sins, or the aspect of their persona/character responsible for such behaviour. We declare ourselves innocent of such deeds and remain firm on the true path and correct beliefs. None of this negates the fact that we act with mercy, compassion and justice towards all people regardless of how strongly we dissociate ourselves from their views and that we show them the true message of Islam.
wa Allahu ta’aala ‘alam.
please let me know if this verse establishes what you were looking for. if not, please let me know which aspect exactly you are looking for proof.
wasalaam