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nuqtah
May 22, 2007 at 2:43 AM
assalamu alaikum,
Humm, I find the content of this ‘blog round up post’ a bit ironic. I won’t go into reasons though.
Anyway, I happened to have a look at the post by the blogger ‘organic muslimah’.
It seems that she was quite insistent upon connecting ‘physical’ disciplinary acts with ‘sexual abuse’. This is quite a ludicrous and absurd ‘connection’, so to say.
What she failed to recognize, a simple fact that any anthropology or sociology student would recognize, is that different societies and cultures have different methods and modes of ‘disciplining’. Physical discipline of one sort or another has always been part of it.
Even in the very ‘west’ which she tends to glamorize all the time, the concept of ‘caning’ was quite common only a few decades ago.
So, I don’t see why she is *horrified* beyond bounds if a qur’an teacher physically punishes a child, by either slapping them lightly or making them stand in an awkward position. It is only there for them to correct themselves. Yes, there are limits, it should not be excessive.
So, the connection between ‘discipline’ and ‘sexual abuse’ seems very very prepostorous. As there isn’t always a connection. Hence, she has made a gross generalization.
Even our beloved Nabi (saw) allowed physical discipline as an ‘option’ if child fails to play. Is she going to accuse him from high horse aswell?
So, in conclusion; discipline is something common across all cultures, it can come in many different forms, physical being one of them.
nuqtah
May 22, 2007 at 2:44 AM
[quote]Even our beloved Nabi (saw) allowed physical discipline as an ‘option’ if child fails to play[/quote]
it should be PRAY* not play, typo :s
Amad
May 22, 2007 at 8:56 AM
ASA, I will have to agree with Nuqtah on this one. The sister’s post started out well enough, because absolutely sexual abuse is becoming so common that it is difficult to not know someone who has gone through it. Usually, and sadly enough, it is the close relatives, the maharims (uncles esp.) who are engaged in this.
As I started to read the ‘Quran sheikh’ story, I was expecting this to be in the same vein. But, strangely enough it jumped to corporal punishment or beating the children. HOW are these two issues related? If one disagrees with hitting the children for discipline, then that should be addressed separately.
Let’s not conflate the two issues because they are completely unrelated. Drawing attention to a story of a Quran teacher hitting kids is akin to mere sensationalism because of lack of relation to the subject (furthermore, how hard the teacher is hitting them, is it normal for kids to be a little scared of their teachers, etc. are all questions to be asked). Also, especially, if the sister does not have experience teaching the memorization the Quran, she cannot understand the difficulty and frustrations that are involved in it. And a little spanking may not be completely uncalled for, esp. if the kid is grossly misbehaving.
The best lessons are of course from the Prophet (S), and this post shares those instructions:
Children Driving You Crazy? A Shaykh’s Beautiful Advice…
Umm Reem
May 22, 2007 at 9:00 AM
–” I don’t believe in child beating and I honestly suspect sexual abuse.”–
la hawla wala quwatta illa billah…I don’t know if we can just ‘suspect’ someone for this. I mean hitting a child is one thing but this is a serious accusation!
However, I do agree with her about leaving the children unattanded with some male, even if they are family member.
I’ve heard a few horribile stories, actually some of them were my own students (now in their teenage years) but they were sexually abused by their own close relatives. These girls complained that their parents didn’t help them either. They wanted me to talk to their paretns and when I did, lo and behold, the parents were just ‘hush…hush’ about it!
I couldn’t believe this happened among Pakistanis!!
khawla hurayrah
May 22, 2007 at 9:47 AM
asalamualaykum
A sister kindly sent this to me yesterday,
if you havent seen it yet… “Desert Rose” by muhammad al shareef
part one of a series…everyday they will post the next part inshaAllah
http://www.reelopener.com/
iMuslim
May 22, 2007 at 10:34 AM
@Nuqtah
I didn’t see that connection, personally. I mean, i don’t see where she was insistent on this. It was a very short entry. She mentioned one example of a sheikh beating children – there is a big difference between light discipline, and beating. She also mentioned right at the beginning that her subject matter was both sexual and physical abuse:
Although i am not a parent, i am of the opinion that the only person who should be allowed to physically discipline a child, is the parent. Even close relatives are pushing it. I am happy for teachers to tell them off, take away privileges, make them sit in the corner, etc, but when it comes to laying hands on my child, that is my domain and no-one elses, because i would be the only one who loves them enough not to go too far, inshallah. There are plenty of ways to discipline children without the need for corporal punishment. And yes, let us look to the example of Rasoolallah, sallalahu ‘alayhi wa salam, who never raised a hand to woman nor a child.
I find it barbaric to ‘beat’ the Qur’an into the mind of children, whether it be through actual physical punishment for not learning quickly enough, or through psychological abuse. You are associating a very bad experience, with religious education. I can tell you from personal experience that i absolutely hated the madresa that i attended as a small child cos i was petrified of the apa teaching us. I may have learnt my alif, ba, ta, but i never learnt love for Islam from her, i can tell you. Eventually my mother left me with an old lady. She was so sweet, mashallah, and never shouted at me, or the few other children in her care, may Allah bless her soul, and never threatened us with anything. Yet we all behaved well, and learnt our surahs, and duas, and what-not. Perhaps we were good children, but that was due to good parenting – so once again, discipline should be in place in the home, so other people don’t have to do your dirty work, for you.
My bad memories of madresa are so strong, that i don’t really want to send my children there, as long i can do the job myself, inshallah. There will come a time when they will have to be sent to someone more qualified, but inshallah, i will be in a position to choose someone who has a good reputation for treating children kindly, like the Prophet, ‘alayhis salam, always did.
Do you know how bad that sounds? She was not on any kind of horse, Nuqtah. Your points, though valid, have been somewhat undermined in my mind, by that derogatory statement. Please be more careful in future, inshallah.
And i can only think that the beating our beloved Nabi, sallalahu ‘alayhi wa salam, was talking about was the LAST option, of many options, and just think about it… if you have to beat your child in order for him/her to pray the obligatory salat, don’t you think that this is a sign that you have failed in your duty to communicate the beauty of Islam to him/her through your own example? I have seen a one year old try to pray salat, cos he saw his mum/dad do it on a regular basis. Kids copy their elders very naturally when they get the impression that what they are doing is fun/interesting.
So, please concentrate on the basic message of her entry which is: we must be very careful who we leave our children with.
I hate to say it, but i also doubt the trustworthiness of some RE teachers, only cos of my friend’s experience. A man brought by her parents to teach her Qur’an etc, sexually abused her in her own home. There are people who have knowledge of such great things, and yet can go to such low depths of depravity, that i wonder how the blessed knowledge can stand to remain in their hearts. Subhanallah, we are all capable of evils beyond imagination; i seek refuge in Allah from this.
The message is, be careful who you trust – these are your children, your hearts, don’t fail them in a way that will leave them scarred for LIFE, na’authobillah.
May Allah forgive me if i have said anything incorrect.
abu ameerah
May 22, 2007 at 10:45 AM
Well…I do like the posts by Br. IbnalHyderagoodie ….
Amad
May 22, 2007 at 10:47 AM
salam iMuslim: Since I shared Nuqtah’s concerns on the essence of the sister’s post, let me clarify one point you mentioned:
You see, I did recognize that she was was going to talk about both these subjects. But the problem is that this combination itself insinuates that somehow the subjects are related. It would be more useful and less incidenary if she would have chosen to keep the subject separate.
Just as you found some of Nuqtah’s comments sufficiently derogatory to cause their undermining, similarly when people conflate issues and talk about them in the same vein, it can take away some of the useful punch associated with them.
As for teachers and hitting, if I know the teacher well, and it is a sort of light hitting and furthermore, if this doesn’t cause the sort of dread and fear that you refer to, then I may be ok with it. Of course, this has to be on a case by case basis and within carefully set limitations and understanding of parents with teachers.
iMuslim
May 22, 2007 at 10:49 AM
I couldn’t believe this happened among Pakistanis!!
Why not? It happens everywhere else in the world. :(
And i can see happening even more amongst certain close knit communities such as the Desis (of which i am one, before anyone accuses me of racism) because it’s all about the family name. Yeah, let the pervert get away with it, cos my family’s honour is worth more than the welfare of the children. It may be unIslamic to say this, but i would KILL anyone who i found doing this to my baby – na’authobillah. As i said, i am not even a mother, but i can already feel the pain that it would cause me. It really does sicken me what people get away with… but Allah is Al-Adl; no-one gets away with anything, Subhanallah.
iMuslim
May 22, 2007 at 10:52 AM
Amad, i understand where you guys are coming from, and i am sure that sister Organic will accept constructive criticism on her posts, inshallah. The high horse remark just wasn’t worthy of a comment from Nuqtah, that’s all.
iMuslim
May 22, 2007 at 10:58 AM
P.S., sorry if i am coming across as a little “emotional” but you can understand why the topic would cause such strong emotion in any person with feeling. The news of such injustice to innocents really does drive a stake through my heart. :(
Amad
May 22, 2007 at 12:07 PM
No problem Sr. iMuslim… the subject is really painful. Especially because not only is the injustice taking place with children who are unable to defend themselves many times, but so many times it is instigated by people who they trust and look up to, esp. relatives.
If there is any person who is reading this, who is either the victim or the instigator of such abuse, please GET HELP, both of you. If you wish to write here anonymously, if that will help you in any way, feel free to do so. Furthermore, as for the instigator get help before Allah’s punishment seeks revenge for the innocent souls that you have ravaged.
AnonyMouse
May 22, 2007 at 12:50 PM
It seems to me that we’re all pretty much agreed on the topic of sexual abuse; it’s physical abuse that’s a bit touchier…
Regarding physical abuse by ‘Islamic’ teachers/ madrasas, I’ve actually been meaning to write a post on this subject, because one of the mothers of a student at *our* Madrasah was talking about another madrasah she’d sent her sons to, and how later on she found out that students were physically and mentally abused, and so she pulled out her sons ASAP.
There’s more to the story, which I will insha’Allah mention in my next blog post…
muslimmatters
May 22, 2007 at 6:06 PM
*Note on comments’ deletion*
From Muslim Matters’s “Modus Operandi” (House-rules in other words):
Br. Nuqtah, we love you as our brother. We refer to your posts many times because you have a great knack for putting many things in their proper context. But, we cannot allow judgemental, harsh, and personal comments. Ad hominem arguments are for those who do not possess control of language or understanding. And that does not reflect you. So, if you have an issue, STICK with the issue. No need to discuss a person’s affiliations, nicks, etc. because (a) we all have limited knowledge of others, and we have zero knowledge of what is in their hearts, and (b) it serves no benefits except to hurt feelings and create a hostile environment.
Ruth Nasrullah
May 22, 2007 at 7:11 PM
Asalaamu alaikum.
You know what? I don’t think someone being a so-called progressive (or hanging out with progressive bloggers) is reason to be uncivil. We should talk to each other as we would face to face, especially brothers to sisters.
iMuslim
May 22, 2007 at 10:22 PM
Salaams again
Although i don’t want to dwell on this for too long, but i think i know why i may have came across as dissing Islam in my earlier comment:
It is my use of the word “beat”, which is most likely different to what is referred to in the English translation of the hadith about ‘beating’ children if they do no pray.
In my mind, the word “beat” has extreme connotations, where the result is physical harm to the victim, such as bruising, swelling, bleeding, etc. I cannot see this as being Islamic.
However, when used in the context of Islamically permissible means of physical discipline, i believe the word “beat” means something entirely different. I am taking this from the fact that the scholars say that if a man resorts to physically disciplining his wife, he must do it lightly, so as to be more of a symbolic action rather than a means to cause harm or pain. He is not allowed to hit her in a way that would cause marks.
In my comment, i meant the extreme form of beating, where the child would feel a lot of pain, and may be affected psychologically in the long-term. Light hitting on the hands with a miswak doesn’t qualify as beating in my mind (i only had that done to me once in my life, and it stung like crazy). However, i would prefer that other methods were first used, such as separating the child from other children in the class, refusing them a playbreak, lines, detention; tried and tested methods, that don’t involved physical discipline.
I am not against parents smacking bottoms, hands, or backs of legs (not sure what goes these days). But i would feel very uncomfortable with a teacher smacking children. I personally do not feel it is their place. If they have that much trouble with the child, they should consult with the parents, and ask them to discipline the child at home.
So, i hope that clears up any confusion, inshallah.
Apologies for any insult, arrogance, or general annoyance. Inshallah, it won’t happen again. :)
Wa’salam
Nuqtah
May 22, 2007 at 11:20 PM
Your clarification is appreciated.
Organic Muslimah
May 22, 2007 at 11:23 PM
Salamu alaikum
Nuqtah:
You said:
The only reason I mentioned physical abuse is because that is how the story was told to me. I am recounting a true story, I didn’t feel comfortable cutting off the story for the purposes of my particular post, which was to discuss SEXUAL ABUSE OF MUSLIM CHILDREN IN OUR COMMUNITIES, not disciplinary actions with regards to culture. I merely touched the topic. I guess you are missing the main theme here.
I am not an Anthropology student but it seems that you are. Thank you for enlightening me!
You said:
Well. I don’t know where you pick up that attitude. I am an Egyptian American who has lived both in the West and the East for the majority of my life. My Aqeedah is Islam and my education has been in the Western and Eastern world. I am at the advantage of picking up the best of both worlds, of course as long as this doesn’t contradict with my Aqeedah, which is an Islamic one.
I have discussed many flaws with the Western society. You may want to check out my posts about how Muslim youth find it hard to fight peer pressure of their non-Muslim friends and my “a href=”http://organicmuslimah.blogspot.com/2007/04/going-to-bar.html “>how Muslim youth are asked to go to bars.
I would appreciate it that you don’t make unfair generalization about my blog or attitude.
You said
I still don’t understand where is the connection? My entire post speaks about NOT LEAVING ONE’S CHILD ALONE WITH ANYONE, EVEN IF THEY ARE RELIGIOUS. I DON’T GO ON AND ON ABOUT PHYSICAL ABUSE,ETC. I merely touch the subject and express my extreme dislike to using physical force when teaching a beautiful subject as Quran. Growing up in Egypt I was beaten up by teachers when I failed to memorize a surah or understand an Arabic grammar concept. And let me tell you something–it never worked! I was only terrified of my teacher and did everything out of fear. Quran shouldn’t be memorized out of fear, it should be out of love. The Quran are the words of Allah (swt).
I would like you to bring up an incident where the Prophet (pbuh) has beaten a child or woman. And I would also like you to explain, as you seem vastly knowledgeable in semantics, the difference between “beating” and “hitting.”
I appreciate the criticism. Thank you!
Organic Muslimah
May 22, 2007 at 11:26 PM
Amad:
Jazzakum Allah Khair for your valuable comments.
You said:
If you read my analysis of the story, you will find that I discuss one major theme: sexual abuse. If I wanted to speak about physical discipline I would have started a new topic or touched it more thoroughly.
Akhi, I am a Sunday School teacher who has helped students memorize various parts of the Quran for years. And I understand it’s difficult. And for this particular story, the children are beaten. And I mean beaten.
I am trying not to explore the topic, as it wasn’t the objective of my post
Again, I appreciate your comments. I am learning something new everyday.
Organic Muslimah
May 22, 2007 at 11:26 PM
Okay, apologies about the funky formating. IMuslim just taught me how to do the block quoting formating. Sorry about the mess up!
Organic Muslimah
May 22, 2007 at 11:33 PM
Amad
Hehehe, I guess it’s your turn again :)
Okay, you said
Akhi, in the beginning I don’t mention what I am going to discuss in the post. I didn’t say “these are the objectives of this post” I only stated the following
And I even divided the rant in the beginning to the actual post.
I was only stating the things that bother me the most. If you are a regular reader, you will find that I write about physical abuse of men, women and children.
However, for the sake of my post, the topic is :Sexual abuse with children–even the title insinuates that I will discuss sexual abuse.
However, I can see how I might have made it confusing. Please blame it on my limited writing skills :). And inshAllah in the future I will be more careful to make my intentions clear and precise.
Jazzakum Allah Khair
IMuslim Shukran sister for your insight on the issue. As always, you say the right thing!
Nuqtah
May 23, 2007 at 2:40 AM
wa alaikumussalaam,
[quote]The only reason I mentioned physical abuse is because that is how the story was told to me. I am recounting a true story, I didn’t feel comfortable cutting off the story for the purposes of my particular post, which was to discuss SEXUAL ABUSE OF MUSLIM CHILDREN IN OUR COMMUNITIES, not disciplinary actions with regards to culture. I merely touched the topic. I guess you are missing the main theme here. [/quote]
I did not miss the main “theme”. I didn’t feel a need to address because I did not have a problem with it. I felt a need to point certain undertones that you were (supposedly) insinuating.
[quote]I am not an Anthropology student but it seems that you are. Thank you for enlightening me! [/quote]
Neither am I a formal student of anthropology. And your words are a bit ambiguous, I don’t know whether sarcasm is intended or not. So, I will hold my judgment.
[quote]Well. I don’t know where you pick up that attitude. I am an Egyptian American who has lived both in the West and the East for the majority of my life. [/quote]
With your vast experience which gives your word legitimacy, I hope I am at the same level of comprehension as you are.
[quote]My Aqeedah is Islam and my education has been in the Western and Eastern world. I am at the advantage of picking up the best of both worlds, of course as long as this doesn’t contradict with my Aqeedah, which is an Islamic one. [/quote]
I never doubted your Islam, why throw in an irrelevant point?
[quote]I have discussed many flaws with the Western society. You may want to check out my posts about how Muslim youth find it hard to fight peer pressure of their non-Muslim friends and my “a href=”http://organicmuslimah.blogspot.com/2007/04/going-to-bar.html “>how Muslim youth are asked to go to bars. [/quote]
I’m not directing this towards you, but criticizing certain aspect of a culture does not discount the fact that the person critiquing it is still not intellectually subservient to its thought.
[quote]I would appreciate it that you don’t make unfair generalization about my blog or attitude. [/quote]
Human beings think in terms of ‘generalizations’. My opinion is not an unfair generalization, but it’s based on what I’ve read and seen on your blog. And I stand by it.
[quote]I still don’t understand where is the connection? My entire post speaks about NOT LEAVING ONE’S CHILD ALONE WITH ANYONE, EVEN IF THEY ARE RELIGIOUS. I DON’T GO ON AND ON ABOUT PHYSICAL ABUSE,ETC. [/quote]
A “connection” does not have to be implicit.
[quote]I merely touch the subject and express my extreme dislike to using physical force when teaching a beautiful subject as Quran. Growing up in Egypt I was beaten up by teachers when I failed to memorize a surah or understand an Arabic grammar concept. And let me tell you something–it never worked! I was only terrified of my teacher and did everything out of fear. Quran shouldn’t be memorized out of fear, it should be out of love. The Quran are the words of Allah (swt). [/quote]
To an unsuspecting reader the way you conveyed it, it seemed like a rabid belittlement of qur’an teachers in their entirety.
[quote]I would like you to bring up an incident where the Prophet (pbuh) has beaten a child or woman. [/quote]
I would like you to disprove the hadith of the Nabi (alayhi salatu wa salam) wherein he allowed ‘physical disciplining’ of a child if he didnt pray, albeit, as scholars opine as a last option.
[quote] And I would also like you to explain, as you seem vastly knowledgeable in semantics, the difference between “beating” and “hitting.” [/quote]
I never claimed to have any knowledge of semantics or linguistics. Please do not attribute something to me that I do not claim.
[quote]I appreciate the criticism. Thank you [/quote]
I don’t. But you are welcome.
Nuqtah
May 23, 2007 at 2:45 AM
[quote]A “connection” does not have to be implicit. [/quote]
oops, this should read as:
A “connection” does NOT have to be “explicit”.
Umm Reem
May 23, 2007 at 9:28 AM
I couldn’t believe this happened among Pakistanis!!
Why not? It happens everywhere else in the world.
Because Pakistani put so much emphasis on ‘extended-family’ values and the joint family system.
On hitting a child to discipline, memorize, study, in all honestly, those who are thinking that it can be done without ‘physical discipline’, are not married and don’t have children yet. All I can say, is wait until you have your own.
However, there is a huge difference between ‘disciplined’ hitting and ‘reaction’ hitting.
Prophet, sallallahu alihi wasalam, didn’t hit a child/woman himself, but he didn’t disapprove it either. I haven’t read any student of knowledge/shaikh disapproving hitting as a mean to discipline, however with conditions and last resort.
As for a teacher hitting his/her student, I do believe that teachers have certain rights over their students. If I find a good teacher for my children, someone I trust, I wouldn’t mind that teacher hitting my child. If that teacher invests so much time and effort on my child, I would also like to give him/her authority.
I think one of the reasons why our children/youth do not respect their teachers is because they don’t take the teachers as an ‘authority’. Whenever the poor teacher tries to ‘physically’ discipline the child, parents interfere and the teachers don’t have an option to use any deterrence method on their students anymore.
But I also agree that it cannot be like what happens back in Indo/pak where teachers can do whatever they wish to their students. Once my mother-in-law told me that a Qur’an teacher hit her nephew so hard with a stick that his arm started bleeding!!
Now that is where the parents must ‘keep an eye’.
And Allah knows best.
Hassan
May 23, 2007 at 10:47 AM
Imam Malik (RA) ordered his class monitor to hit (beat whatever) a student (forgot his name) who came all the way from As-Sham, his mother sold everything so he can come and study under Imam Malik. (and rest of the story..), which shows that among salaf teachers would have authority to discipline students by physical means.
I studied in Pakistani school from KG, all the way to 12th grade. I think getting beaten by teachers (without killing you) only toughens you. When I look back, I have no grudge against any of my teachers, but lots of respect. I do not see students in west having respect for any elder like that. May be they need some beating/hitting.
Plus its thrill (getting beaten, or ways to avoid it, etc)
Umm Reem
May 23, 2007 at 11:57 AM
I can never forget Abdullah ibn AzZubair, radiAllahu anh, when it comes to toughen up through childhood hitting!!
And in reference to Br. Hassan’s story of Imam Malik: The student was Hisham ibn Ammar, one of the teacher of Bukhair and Muslim.
AnonyMouse
May 23, 2007 at 12:16 PM
“I think getting beaten by teachers (without killing you) only toughens you. ”
I disagree. Call me a wimp, a weak female, wish-washy, subservient to Western intellectual thought when it comes to discipline, whatever, but I STRONGLY disagree.
Children are young, vulnerable, their minds soaking things up like sponge – soaking up not just words and knowledge, but feelings and emotions as well. For many children, being beaten is a horrible experience that will carry extremely negative connotations for a very, very long time later on.
My first Qur’an teacher used to scream at me and twist my ears whenever I made a mistake in reading or recitation, and for a long time after I loathed reading or reciting the Qur’an because all I could remember was the inner pain I felt at being called stupid, idiotic, dumb, etc. and the outer pain as well. I only got over those negative feelings relatively recently, wal-Hamdulillaah.
And it’s not just because I was a girl: my younger brothers had the same teacher for a while and suffered the same thing, and I’d often find them crying later on because of what the teacher had said to them. (None of us go to that teacher anymore)
Now that I volunteer at the Madrasah, teaching Qur’an, I do understand the frustrations of teaching… but even though I sometimes feel like screaming or smacking someone, I’ll never do it because I know how awful my own experience was. We want to bring kids closer to Islam, not drive them away.
Furthermore, I don’t understand why some people think that beating kids makes them respect you as an adult or your authority. My parents have always been firm with my brothers and I, and we know not to mess with them. Yet, the few times that they raised their hands to us are the times I felt LEAST respect and was more inclined to rebel. (Call me a disrespectful kid or whatever, but that was how I felt)
Authority can be demonstrated, and respect instilled, without resorting to physical violence. Mind you, there ARE some kids so badly behaved that speaking to them firmly, or even raising your voice to them, won’t work. In those cases, a smack may well be needed: but as teachers, neither I nor my father would do it ourselves: instead, we’d make a note of the kid’s behaviour, inform the parent, and tell them that they need to discipline their kid.
In fact, we’ve found that treating the kids well, praising them and encouraging, is actually a way to *prevent* kids from acting up. And if a child persists in behaving badly, what we do is take something away from them (usually withhold from giving them candies, which are distributed regularly at the end of class). It’s worked pretty well, and we have loads of kids of all different backgrounds: Indian, Arab, African, the lot of them.
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but when it comes to kids’ behaviour, there tend to be two extremes: kids who aren’t disciplined at all, and kids whose parents/guardians go at them like a boxing bag. In both cases, these are the kids who act out the most. But those kids who have a good relationship with their parents, but who are also disciplined well, tend to already have a respect for authority instilled within them and they’re the ones who don’t give much trouble to teachers.
Maybe it’s an old world/ new world thing, a society thing. Many FOBs (including my grandfather) seem to think that screaming at kids and hitting them so hard they bruise/bleed is totally okay; whereas the rest of us think otherwise.
Arabs and Indians are also inclined to be of the former opinion, although I noticed that the African kids (the ones in our classes, anyway) are a bit softer.
In my family however, having our parents’ voice raised to us is enough to let us know we’ve gone far enough.
AnonyMouse
May 23, 2007 at 12:20 PM
“Plus its thrill (getting beaten, or ways to avoid it, etc)”
I think that’s another reason beating doesn’t work well as a method of discipline: beat a kid enough, and s/he will get so used to it they won’t even care about it much anymore. And isn’t the whole point of discipline to MAKE them care, to make them realize what they’ve done wrong and what they need to fix?
Less is more, as they say, and it’s definitely been true in my experience.
Hassan
May 23, 2007 at 12:30 PM
Anonymouse, thanks for disagreeing, can you explain Imam Malik’s actions? Secondly the bottom line is to discipline the kids, which we both agree on. Now if kids can be disciplined with words, thats fine, why need to go beyond that, if they need slight punishment (like go to your room, write on board), then do that. And if they need beating, then beat them. So basically it varies from child to child, and also gender to gender, its easy to deal with girls and you would not need beating, while boys can be more problematic.
Ofcourse moderation is required in all matters, but there is no way I can say keep beating off the table, its sometimes necessary, and its important to keep men tough and not girly-men.
Also as far as feeling goes, my feelings get hurt with words, even said without anger, and they are more lasting, than getting hit/beaten my teacher/father, and you get some bruises, and thats it.
nuqtah
May 23, 2007 at 12:37 PM
Hassan don’t you know!
Imam Malik’s action do not conform to our enlightened, modern and civil standards! He’s barbaric!
(wal iyadhubillah)
nuqtah
May 23, 2007 at 12:38 PM
[quote]Maybe it’s an old world/ new world thing, a society thing. Many FOBs (including my grandfather) seem to think that screaming at kids and hitting them so hard they bruise/bleed is totally okay; whereas the rest of us think otherwise.
[/quote]
Yes yes blame it on the FOBs, very intellectual and impartial indeed. Not to mention very logical.
AnonyMouse
May 23, 2007 at 12:40 PM
“can you explain Imam Malik’s actions?”
Nope, I don’t think I can. Personally, I don’t get it/ don’t think it’s neccessary; but like I mentioned in the first comment, I guess it’s a societal thing (some cultures consider it normal to discipline a child that way).
“its important to keep men tough and not girly-men.”
Yes, absolutely! But I do think that it can be done without beating the ‘softness’ out of the guys – after all, Uthman ibn Affan (radhiAllahu anhu) was an extremely gentle and soft type of person, but he was also a ferocious warrior.
“So basically it varies from child to child, and also gender to gender, its easy to deal with girls and you would not need beating, while boys can be more problematic.”
Heh, not always. Some girls need a whack upside the head while the guys are the ones who actually need to be sat down and talked to…
AnonyMouse
May 23, 2007 at 12:43 PM
“Yes yes blame it on the FOBs, very intellectual and impartial indeed. Not to mention very logical.”
*Sighs* I just said that it was perhaps a societal thing. Like I said, my own grandpa (whom I love with all my heart) used to beat my dad – and honestly, I don’t get it, because my grandpa is one of those really mellow guys whom I can’t imagine raising his fist to anyone.
So, I guess it’s a culture thing. Here in the West, beating kids is frowned upon; as a result of growing up here, I guess I’ve gotten that understanding too. Such has been my upbringing, and my personal experience.
May Allah forgive me if I’m saying anything contrary to Islam!
AnonyMouse
May 23, 2007 at 12:45 PM
“Imam Malik’s action do not conform to our enlightened, modern and civil standards! He’s barbaric!”
Subhan’Allah! I have never called ANY of the Salaf as-Saalih ‘barbaric,’ nor do I consider myself better, ‘enlightened’ or ‘modern’!
What I stated was my personal opinion, and it could very well be wrong – may Allah forgive me and correct me!
nuqtah
May 23, 2007 at 12:45 PM
[quote]Nope, I don’t think I can. Personally, I don’t get it/ don’t think it’s neccessary; but like I mentioned in the first comment, I guess it’s a societal thing (some cultures consider it normal to discipline a child that way).
[/quote]
You are contradicting your own principles. First you contend that beating children is totally unacceptable and wrong. And then you say you can’t explain Imam Malik’s action. By direct implication, and by direct qiyas…you are calling Imam Malik of being barbaric.
If that’s not the case, save yourself the embarrasment and be a bit more coherent.
nuqtah
May 23, 2007 at 12:47 PM
[quote]Subhan’Allah! I have never called ANY of the Salaf as-Saalih ‘barbaric,’ nor do I consider myself better, ‘enlightened’ or ‘modern’!
What I stated was my personal opinion, and it could very well be wrong – may Allah forgive me and correct me!
[/quote]
Then stop contradicting yourself (?). Ever thought about doing that?
Btw, there’s great wisdom in the words of beloved nabi sal Allahu alayhi wassalam, when he said “man samatan najja” (whoever remained quiet has saved himself)
AnonyMouse
May 23, 2007 at 12:53 PM
“If that’s not the case, save yourself the embarrasment and be a bit more coherent.”
I’ll try, but I don’t know how successful I’ll be. Please just bear with me…
Okay, let me try to put it this way:
I think it depends on the context. Back then, and even now in some societies/ cultures, it was the norm. Nowadays, it’s far more frowned down upon. As a result, people (me included) react more strongly to hearing about a kid being beaten than we would if we lived in a society where it was normal.
Now, I still disagree with kids being beaten wherever it is. However, I will NOT point to any of our great predecessors in Islamic history and say that they were acting in a barbaric manner or whatever – Allah knows best what/why they did and He is the one to judge them, not me.
(Did that make any more sense? I have a feeling you won’t be impressed, though.)
abu ameerah
May 23, 2007 at 12:56 PM
@ Hassan:
You GAVE IT…FULL FORCE…FULL ON!
Umm Layth
May 23, 2007 at 1:16 PM
as-Salaamu `alaykum
Firstly, regarding the article of abuse: We shouldn’t live in suspicion about every single person that is out there and assume they will harm our children.
Secondly, let us take it easy on AnonyMouse and the other sisters.
My person thoughts are that there is a fine line that we can’t cross and that is bashing those who do use the hand sometimes for disciplining. It was something that was used in the past by everyone, including the Salaf and those that came after, and is still being used today. Even amongst Americans it is something normal sometimes and not looked down upon. The only ones who may say something are CPS really but you know the ones with the bad kids probably hit their kids too.
I’m personally not for hitting a child when he is memorizing Qur’aan because I also hated learning the Bible when my grandmother would smack me. However, she smacked me for not paying full attention which is considered disrespect of the book and I think that is something we need to pay close attention to. We live in a time where disrespect is shown to everyone. We speak about children disrespecting us and if tactic A doesn’t work we move on to tactic B, but what about disrespect for Allaah’s Words? Seriously, if they are of sound age, don’t listen the first time when they get the warning and they know that their actions are wrong, they do deserve a small disciplinary action that is beyond a warning. Obviously, if a warning doesn’t work, it probably won’t work the 2nd time or the 3rd time or the 4th time. And believe me, I have seen parents who constantly give warnings and the children just make a mock of them because they realize that is as far as their parents can go.
Every child is different. Age matters. If they know their action is wrong matters. What steps were taken prior to show them their mistake matters. In reality it is called wisdom. Some girls are harder than other boys and vice versa. There is no reason to call war on each other over this. But I do want to say to those who are against using the hand at all that you get married and have children first. If you get lucky because of your OWN wisdom, your children won’t need more than a talk but with all honesty, that depends on you. If you end up with a kid who just won’t listen, throws stuff at you, hits you – try your tactic and see how long you go without breaking. Also a reminder: don’t ever hit your kid because of your anger. If it has to be done, do it to make him learn. Remembering the example of Ali (radhiyallaahu `anhu) is something well worth our time in such instances.
Umm Layth
May 23, 2007 at 1:17 PM
personal*
AnonyMouse
May 23, 2007 at 1:23 PM
Wa ‘alaikumus-salaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatu,
Jazaakillaahi khairan Umm Layth for the measured response… I do think your comment was the best during this whole discussion! :)
Hassan
May 23, 2007 at 1:44 PM
Sister Anonymouse, since its matter of culture or time, then we have to agree to leave it there at our cultural differences. If in your culture beating/hitting is not practiced, upto your culture, my culture practices it, and has been practiced through centuries and produced numerous scholars, warriors, geniuses. Also I think age matters, meaning I may have some reservations being beaten/hit by my father/teacher 10-15 years ago, but now I thank Allah everyday for having such parents/teachers for keeping me disciplined, and after Allah, credit goes to them for whatever my achievements in life are.
On a slight tangent, FOB vs ABCD, I think it could be a good post for blog by someone like Amad who was FOB, and apparently upgraded(in his view, could be considered downgraded) to American who can discuss the wide bridge between two. I would have much more to comment on that post.
AnonyMouse
May 23, 2007 at 1:47 PM
Yes, I suppose this is one of those “agree to disagree” things…
BTW, good suggestion! Actually, I have a draft of a post that’ll touch on this subject, but from a slightly different angle…
Umm Reem
May 23, 2007 at 2:00 PM
I could remember was the inner pain I felt at being called stupid, idiotic, dumb, etc. and the outer pain as well.
Now, this is what I don’t agree with (YES even me who believes in physical discipline).
I have never called my children ‘stupid or dumb’, walhamudllilah, at the most I have told my children that what they did was silly.
My children immediately tell me, ‘that was not nice what you said.’
And even in my anger I have to emphasize, ‘I am not calling you silly rather your action silly!’
That makes me feel better that walhamdulilah I am not a dictator figure in their minds because they can object, even if I am angry :)
Anonymouse: You can well see the difference between the eastern youth and western youth’s respect level of elders and esp. teachers.
Besides, as i kept saying, a hitting which is merely a reaction of a child’s misbehaving vs. a hitting that is a ‘consequence’ of several warnings has a different effect.
As for hitting while teaching Qur’an, I don’t think anyone would have the heart to hit a child merely because they make a mistake or can’t pronounce something correctly.
It is usually because either they start playing around, or they waste time or they disrespect etc.
And I do believe in the necessity of explaining the child that hitting is not because they made a mistake but because of their playing around, misbehaving etc.
Honestly, hitting doesn’t mean bleeding your child rahter it is merely to embarrass and instill fear in the child, so that he doesn’t repeat his mistake/action to save himself from the embarrassment and/or out of fear.
Umm Layth: (long time no post!) I agree that every child is different and not every child need to be hit.
OH and as for Imam Malik’s story of hitting Hisham ibn Ammar, it is a beautiful story. If I get a chance, inshaAllah, I will post it later.
But just to summarize, when Hisham started crying, Imam Malik immediately stopped and asked him if he had hurt him (because the intent was to discipline and not hurt) and when Hisham said that he had, Imam Malik asked Hisham how he could compensate…I mean this shows that hitting can be done in a way different then ‘abuse’ or ‘humiliation’.
Plus, hitting has to stop after a certain age and can only work during a certain age. What can be used as a deterrence for a child, who does not even perceive ‘long term’ punishments.
KashifN
May 23, 2007 at 6:27 PM
I haven’t had time to read through all the comments here, so i apologise if i’m just repeating what someone has already said. Organic Muslimah, the connection i saw you making between physical abuse and sexual abuse is right here: “I was ready to call the police on this man because I don’t believe in child beating and I honestly suspect sexual abuse.” You what?
But overall, i think the worst thing about the post is that it encourages people to mistrust their own families, and all based on the perverted actions of a few. What an awful, awful thing to do.
nuqtah
May 23, 2007 at 6:44 PM
[qoute]Umm Layth for the measured response… I do think your comment was the best during this whole discussion!
[/quote]
agreed. She put it quite poignantly.
SrAnonymous
May 24, 2007 at 8:50 AM
Assalamu alaykum
On the opposite end of things, just a word of advice. If you ever are involved in a children’s program and you have the luxury of having enough volunteers, then use the policy that the they have in Scouts, to avoid any accusations..never be alone with a child e.g. when you take them to the bathroom etc.
Too sad that you hear of abuse cases that are with relatives that a parent is most likely to trust.
Anyways, this was just a heads up about the volunteering thing. At my daughter’s Islamic school, the teachers don’t even go into the kids’ bathroom, for better or for worse.
ibn alHyderabadee
May 24, 2007 at 10:45 AM
I got beat up back in school……don’t regret it either……