We were standing outside the dojang (dojo). They were taking the old sign down and the new owners were putting up a new sign. My children take tae kwon do classes. When I signed them for classes in this particular dojo years ago, it was run by a man from Jordan, (a non-practicing brother, named Master Jordan, who made a musalla (prayer area)  in his office for us).

Along with the new uniforms and saying good bye to their beloved instructor, my children faced a big change in their martial arts instruction.  They had to relearn many of the forms and learn their names in Korean. The friendly atmosphere had been replaced by formality. Last testing, when the kids were being handed their new belts, I saw that the Grandmaster was making everyone bow (almost like a sajdah) to him. Master Jordan never asked the kids (any kid) to bow down to him or to any another sensei. I walked up to the manager and told her that that my children would not be doing the bow.

Unceremoniously, an instructor (not the Grandmaster) handed the belts/certificate out to my children.

The dojo had been bought by a Korean family who were very traditional in the manner that they ran the practice.

After the ceremony, we went into the office and thanked the Grandmaster for the certificates.  I explained the whys: why we do not bow down to anyone aside God, it is for religious reasons,  etc. I offered several other culturally acceptable methods of showing our respect. We received a terse nod of acknowledgement and were asked to leave.

Lost in Translation

“Mama, they won't let me test! I am so prepared for my blue belt.” My daughter was on the phone.  A few months later and it was testing time again, and this time my husband had taken the kids to the center. “Give the phone to Mrs. Lee,” I said.

“Sorry, sorry, they have to come back on Friday, we test them when no one else is here!!” I could barely understand her. She was the wife and the manager and had moved to the U.S. from Korea 12 years ago.

“Please, Mrs. Lee,” I pressed,”the girls are so excited and they worked really hard; they are mentally ready to spar.”

She whispered something in Korean to her 18 year old son, he is 4th degree black belt and an instructor. Soon he was on the phone and his normally friendly voice was very contrived and terse. “This is Korean culture, you have to bow. I am doing you a favor by setting up separate testing.”

'But Master Jordan never…”

“Don't speak to me about him, he didn't run this place in a 'traditional Korean' way.”

I interjected, “But none of your flyers, paperwork list any such rules.”

“Listen lady, I don't want to argue with you.” He said that he had never heard of this religion issue. Generally, Korean society is pretty homogeneous but never heard of bowing only to God!?

I knew I was going to lose my cool; so I asked my husband to just bring the girls home. I wasn't thinking about the instructor or his father, the Grandmaster; all I could think of was my disappointed kids.

My husband was upset, the girls were upset, and the Grandmaster was upset.

And I was really upset and frustrated as I had paid the fees upfront for the whole year. But to me bowing and sajdah are acts done solely for the sake of Allah, to Allah. The thought of making sujood to a human being had me riled up.

These thoughts rushed through my head as I wrote a quick email to my MuslimMatters resources. I didn't want my behavior to reflect badly on all Muslims that the dojo may come in contact with but I wanted to make my point clear.

I didn't want to create a scene, so I decided not to go in right then and make a fuss in front of all the parents who were there for an important time in their kids' life, but I didn't think it was fair for them to send my children home after calling them to test. I didn't want my kids being treated like pariahs, testing separately like there was something wrong with them. Part of the fun of martial arts is the whole dojo testing together.

Why did they need to bow?sparring, do I have to bow, respect

 

I understand that in a dojo martial artists hit & choke each other, they toss each other to the ground; they swing sticks, brandish swords and exchange a gamut of sophisticated bodily punishment. Without an honest and sincere demonstration of respect before and after an exchange, before and after class, they risk the creation of a contentious environment that promotes brawling and discourages mutual benefit. This is the reasoning behind the 'small bow'.

As I researched further, I understood that paying respect can mean to thank someone for training with you.  Martial artists also bow to their opponents and to fellow artists (this bow is more like a bending of the torso).  “It can mean that you desire intensity of training. It can mean you desire slowness in training. It can mean that you admire someone for their abilities. It can mean that you want them to improve. It can mean that you want to see the best they have to offer. It can mean you want them to hit you as hard as they can. It can also mean you want them to go lightly on you. The word respect, to me, implies that you are cognizant of what is going on around you and you are intending to learn from it. It is an act of active participation, versus passive participation,” writes a martial artist. Bows are used to begin and end practice, sparring bouts and competitions, and when entering and leaving the dojo, or practice room.

More ever, a low, deep bow from Koreans at the end of a meeting indicates a successful meeting. A quick, short parting bow could mean dissatisfaction with meetings. Like traditional Muslim culture, elders are treated with respect due to to their age. I finally realized that in the GM's eyes, I had disrespected him when I asked that my kids not bow to him.

Several of MM brothers and their families do martial arts as well and had similar experiences: Br. Iesa said that “when I took Aikido the sensei told me create a salute but I moved before I did, but nowadays in my jujitsu and kick-boxing classes the instructors don't really care so I just nod my head when the rest of them bow.”

Br Siraaj said “My kids do wushu,the  instructors are Non-Muslim and understand why we don't do this (multiple families coming and explaining)”

images

Shaykh Yasir Qadhi replied to my email:

Bowing down in front of others for respect is haram (not shirk). At the same time your kids (not baligh) so rules are lax for them; maybe they could get by if they just 'nodded' and didn't actually bend their backs?!? I had the same issue with my nephews and nieces and we talked to the sensei and he agreed to let them into class a few minutes late because they would bow at the beginning of the ceremony. They are not baligh so the Shariah would not be as strict on them. Parents needs to be as careful as possible and teach them what is appropriate. I wouldn't want my kids to do that. 

(Please excuse the frankness of our discussions, we love our Shuyukh and love that we can ask them questions) As our discussion grew, Br. Wael, a martial artist asked  “why would you say that bowing for respect is haram? There is a big difference between someone arrogantly demanding that others bow for him (or rise for him) when he enters a room, and two people bowing to each other as a greeting.  The martial arts bow is mutual. The instructor bows to the students, and the students bow to the instructor. Then, when students pair up to work on techniques, they bow to each other. Quite obviously it is not worship, and has nothing to do with worship. No one in Asian culture imagines or thinks that bowing is related to worship in any way.  Secondly, the martial arts bow (or Asian cultural bow) is not a deep, 90 degree angle bow like our ruku'. It is a relatively shallow bow. We need to put things in their cultural context. If a Western “noble” walked in the room and expected people to bow, obviously as Muslims we cannot do that. But in East Asia, bowing is a simple greeting. It's a deeply ingrained part of Asian culture. In Japan and Korea (and China to a lesser degree) people bow when greeting a friend or a colleague, or even just running into a friend on the street. Indigenous East Asian Muslims do it as much as anyone else. Are they all committing sins every day by greeting each other in this way? In many parts of South East Asia, people (including Muslims) greet each other or show respect by putting their palms together in front of the chest. In the West, people shake hands. Arabs often hug. Well, East Asians bow. Are we to declare all other greeting traditions valid, and the East Asian tradition haram?”

Some sisters shared Islam Q&A fatwas through which this  hadith was shared:

 Al-Tirmidhi (2728) narrated that Anas ibn Maalik [ra] said: A man said: O Messenger of Allah, when one of us meets his brother or friend, should he bow to him? He said: “No.” He said: Should he embrace him and kiss him? He said: “No.” He said: Should he shake hands with him? He said: “Yes.”
Wael asked the Shuyukh “Is the Prophet ṣallallāhu 'alayhi wa sallam (peace and blessings of Allāh be upon him) flatly prohibiting bowing in this hadith, or is he simply describing what type of greeting is best for Muslims? Because if it's a flat prohibition, then must we also understand that embracing your brother is haram? So a Muslim cannot hug his brother, it's forbidden?  The other fatwas keep saying that “bowing is a kind of worship”. My point is that our ruku' is certainly worship; but the shallow bow that martial arts practitioners give each other is not. No one in martial arts intends or conceives of it as worship. Otherwise we would be worshipping each other, which makes no sense.”

 

Shaykh Yasir replied: “Any type of lowering of the head (ruku and sujud) was allowed in previous nations if done out of respect (angels to Adam; Yaqub and sons to Yusuf). When Muadh tried to do it to Prophet (saw) he saw, “Do not do so.” And in another hadith, “I do not permit any man prostrating to another, but were I to permit it I would do so for the wife. I don't know of any scholar who would say bowing the head is something permissible. It is not done in our religion. Maybe you'll find some who say its strongly discouraged.”

 

A great part of being  MM Family is the access to a variety of scholars, so here is Shaykh Yahya Ibrahim's take which slightly differed from Shaykh Yasir's:

Bismillah,

Some take a very conservative stance and refuse any form of bowing.  That of course is acceptable and prudent.
However, if the children are young, taught well about our worship and how none deserve it but Allah, I find it is acceptable to acknowledge others with a movement of the head and torso that meets the expectation of respect without compromising our faith and education of our kids.  I think the compromise offered is great. I grew up, for 6 years, in tae kwon do gyms… I bowed with a movement from the head and torso slightly throughout.

Wa allahu a'laam

 

The Big Bow

But the big bow as it is called in many dojos was the major issue. This bow is literally called the “90 degree bow” (90도 인사) in Korean because it is. It's a form of utter respect, an intentional showing of service and obedience.  Sabae (큰절) or deep bows that are reserved for special occasions, for example the Korean News Year's. Many Korean traditions stem from Confucianism. Although Confucianism is sometimes described as a religion because of it allusions to ancestor worship Confucius himself never endorsed ancestor worship. He stressed devotion to ancestors out of reverence to their wisdom and moral leadership not as a means of worshiping their spirits.

Here is what Shaykh Abdul Rahman Mangera says:

In the name of Allah the Inspirer of truth. It is not permissible to bow in these circumstances. Although it may not have any religious significance to the art, however, as a Muslim it is an empathetically prohibited act for you. It is an act reserved for Allah alone, and doing it for other than Allah is either unlawful, or can leads one to kufr if done with intention to worship. If it had been permissible, even as to honor someone, it would have been permissible to do it for the Prophet (upon him be peace) or one's elders, which is not the case.
Wael had some practical advice for me: “Sister Hena, I just noticed that you are referring to the full prostrating bow, which resembles our sajda. In this case I agree that it's not appropriate for a Muslim. It sounds like the new instructor is very traditional and formal. This may not be the right class for a Muslim. You might think about switching your kids to another school, or to a different martial arts style. Some styles, such as those that come from Indonesia or the Philippines, do not require bowing because it's not a part of their culture. There are also schools that do not require bowing because they are Christian-run and have eliminated Asian cultural trappings. And some that are simply Americanized.”

The Sajdah

I realized what a great learning opportunity this is for my kids. The kids and I spoke about Sujud- the meaning of the word, sajdah:

S J D-lowly, humble, submissive, worship, adore, prostrate, make obeisance, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head, to salute/honor/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continually and tranquilly.

A sajdah is our body hymning the submission of our souls. How metaphorically we do Sajadah when we obey Allah. We spoke of how one can do superficial prostration while disobeying God.

In our discussion on the MM listserv, we did veer off topic and talked about how sad it is that most parents will not or can not get their kids to make even ruku' to Allah, but will find time and put in the effort to put their kids in karate schools to make ruku' to an instructor. And the reality is most Muslim families are not even getting their kids to pray five times a day.

I wanted to share this topic with our readers as many of us face live in a multicultural environment where our actions/interactions may upset another based on their cultural norms. Bowing to other than God is not a modern issue but its ramifications in a martial arts setting maybe new. I want to share how my family and friends have handled this situation and how shurah with people that you trust can help guide you through a complex situation that may initially seem black and white. My children learnt the important of sajdah, a seemingly physical act and it's profound metaphysical and spiritual meaning in a way that I could not have explained to them if they didn't have this experience. They also learnt how respect is expressed in other cultures.

My children continue to stand up for their belief and refuse to bow down to anyone except to their Lord. They tested separately until the Grandmaster yielded.  As a sign of respect, we took flowers for their instructor to show them respect at their ceremonial testing (American style). Until we left California, when we entered and exited the dojo we did a quick nod of greeting and respect. We hope that their instructors are richer in learning that there are others whose views may differ from theirs, and that respect can be expressed in many beautiful ways. As I search for a new dojo for them in our new city, I will keep my MM brothers' advice in mind.

For my children only Allah is the Grandmaster, alhamdulillah. May Allah always keep them firm in their iman.

35 Responses

  1. Shahin

    This was a verrry interesting discussion. I’m so glad your children chose what they did, Alhamdulillah :)

    Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  2. sstrunks4

    Sun7an Allah I learned so much from this, thank you for sharing. I have been in similar occasions with the exact same reply of action :D!

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  3. Kirana

    See, this is why hadith experts are supposed to train in all sorts, including arab culture of the time of the Prophet, arab language at that time, etc. True, we have the *words* that the Prophet said at the time, but words mean very different things in different cultural contexts, or they may imply an obvious context to someone of the same worldview, yet this context implied by the words is quite lost on someone from another culture or time. Just having the hadith text, especially for acts whose meaning is so culturally-specific and perhaps even era-specific, and then just sort of ‘guessing’ why based on one’s own time and culture, is not at all a reliable means of understanding it.

    bowing in a ‘hello’ context, bowing so that your exercise partner can leapfrog over you, and bowing to signify another person’s authority over you – they are clearly quite different contexts, and i should think only the last one is inappropriate for a Muslim. i’m not sure that bowing like sajdah is a problem if it’s mutual and in a cultural context where it is a normal gesture – mutuality implies a gesture between peers. but bowing like sajdah where only one party bows and the other occupies a higher social position, that probably crosses the line. yoga exercise options are a related issue – some places teach it as just exercise and meditation techniques, but some include certain elements that might be shirik. i personally think that often the best option that offends everyone least, is to choose a different place/activity/style when you find an element that’s problematic. it can really hurt people if you insist on different treatment – it’s like saying, i want your knowledge, but i will continue to disrespect your beliefs and culture while i learn it. if you’ve explained your position, and it’s still ‘no deal’ with the dojo, it is better and respectful to accept that and walk away.

    as a cultural example, to expand views: bowing as a social sign of respect to elders is extremely common among Southeast Asian Muslim peoples in Malaysia, Brunei and Indonesia. the bow is slight to almost a ruku’ angle while clasping an elder’s hand with both of yours and kissing (or pretending to kiss) it – the elder person usually indicates magnanimous dismissal of the gesture by pulling his/her hand away before the younger actually kisses it. if you are dealing with an elder of another race/culture, or if you are a young person of a different race, our norm in Malaysia is that this will usually be exempted without social criticism. anyway, this bow is unanimously not considered the same as ruku’ in salat – in fact i would wager that if you were to suggest it to a random Muslim person in these nations, that would be the first time such a comparison would have ever occurred to them. not least by some of the youngest, who conform to the practice with mischievously defiant grins before jetting off to some new naughtiness.

    another example on the flip side: some forms of the Malay martial art of ‘silat’ have Islamic concepts and faith embedded in the training. obviously a non-Muslim can’t be trained in this form without endangering his faith in whatever his religion is, and should opt for a form which teaches it as a merely physical art or as a pre-Islamic form or an alternative martial art like aikido or karate or silambam – which is what happens in practice.

    Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  4. Waleed Rahman

    SubhanAllah. Perfect timing. My little brother was telling me just yesterday how his old (Muslim, too) teacher used to make the students bow in Taekwondo and now the new doesn’t allow it one bit. Says you bow down only to Allah (SWT).

    Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  5. Dawud

    We faced the same issues. However, my children and others now do the “Hotep” salute with their fists in the dojo
    .

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  6. Liv

    May Allah reward you. My kids also did martial arts and it was very important to me that I found a studio that was accomodating about this and not hardcore cultural. I hope you can find a place that works for you inshallah.

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  7. Ilham

    Assalamu alaikum, thank you for such an amazing and intriguing article. This is definitely an issue many muslims practicing martial arts encounter.
    But I must say I am quite shocked at the response from the instructors at your dojang. I have been doing taekwondo for 2 years now, and I have never heard of such cultural insensitivity before. The day my sister and I began class as white belts, both the instructor and the Grand Master himself asked us if we were comfortable bowing. When we explained that 90 degree bows are not permissible in our religion, he respected our beliefs and acknowledge that we were not in anyway trying to disrespect him or the sport.
    From my own research, bowing 90 degrees at the torso ( similar to ruku’) is not permissible as it is similar to that performed in prayer. So it is better for one to bow no lower that 45 degrees at the torso, but again, as mentioned previously, social context plays a major role as well.

    Jazakum Allah Khayra, I pray Allah (swt) makes it easy for Muslims practicing martial arts and keeps us strong in our faith. Ameen

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  8. ZAI

    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a shallow bow (ruku’ style).
    Something like a sajdah would be more of an issue though…I’m not a scholar, but I’d surmise
    it’s haraam.

    Is something that traditional really a part of Tae Kwon Do instruction here in the states?
    As a kid, I learned wushu for years and neither the Chinese instructors nor the African-American who bought the studio later cared about infusing that level of cultural tradition into the lessons. Most we ever did was a shallow bow w/ fist…It was the same both in the ring and in studio when I learned and competed in MMA in my late teens and twenties…

    Maybe Muslims would be better off seeking out non-Asian instructors who aren’t picky
    about the cultural aspects of these martial arts…or seek out non-Asian martial arts like
    Brazilian jujitsu…

    It’s becoming a more complex and tricky world though…
    I can’t make any suggestions as to shari’ah as I’m not a scholar,
    but I’d tend to lean towards what some of the shaykhs who advised you suggested: that intent
    and cultural context might be important in making these decisions. We have similar issues with
    shaking hands with opposite gender folks, etc. cropping up because of these differences.

    Not being a scholar, I cannot say anything definitively…but in GENERAL I think we Muslims
    will earn a lot of resentment from others if we adopt a stand that we’re not going to respect
    others traditions whatsoever, but that they must respect ours…Some level of flexibility and accommodation is needed on both sides of the issue. Non Muslims should not expect us to go so far as compromising our deen or iman, but we should be more flexible in areas where we can be to the utmost degree…perhaps by thinking more deeply about some issues or considering what have been minority scholarly opinions thus far, as the shuyookh suggested.

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  9. Cartoon Muslim

    To those taking martial arts classes, are instructors give you a hard time if you request training only with the same gender?

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Reply
    • ZAI

      From my experience,
      It is not an issue if you are older…late teens or adults.
      They will usually separate men’s/women’s classes because as men’s strength outpaces women’s
      with age, you can’t really train mixed gender. Children’s classes are usually mixed though…

      Again…this has been MY experience with wushu and MMA dojos I have trained at in Chicago…
      So, it’s anecdotal. Research a place and ask questions…

      Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

      Reply
    • Jessi F.

      Here in Irving, Texas we have arranged with a nearby dojo to give us a class for women only, on Sunday when they are normally closed. First it began as a self-defense and fitness class, but many of us found we desired to achieve ranking in the belts, The teacher is a female blackbelt that normally teaches at that dojo.

      The windows are covered, so we can train without the headscarf if we wish.

      Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      Reply
  10. life is a test!

    Cartoon Muslim, Look for a place that does not require sparring but it might be hard to find.I stopped when I started wearing hijab because of the uniform requirements.

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  11. Asma

    i think it all depends upon your intentions. As Quranic verse states states that all actions will be judged on the basis of the intention, i guess if your kids had to bow down it would have been ok. Allah understands but the people dont. that is why it is even allowed to lie about your iman if your life is in danger. I understand there is no life-death situation over here, but a middle way out like ruku style sajda would have been okay. however, i appreciate for you keeping your cool and not spoiling the day for other kids… see thats what a MUSLIM is!

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Reply
      • Zainab

        In many places it says that in the Quran. everything in Islam is about intention, Allah always mentions how he knows what is in the heart. A simple example in reality would be if I killed a man on purpose or if I killed him by accident (e.g. like what happened with Musa Alayhisalam) or, another example – if i borrowed a pen and forgot to give it back compared to stealing a pen(ill intent) – or another example in the instance of worship – praying in front of people with the intention to look good (hypocrite) or praying in front of people with genuine intentions to fufill prayer.

        The Noble Quran, 2:186)”. Allah Almighty knows what’s in the heart and will judge us according to our intentions.

        Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Muheeb

        Exactly.
        If one was bowing to the sensai with the intention to worship him, that would be bad – in comparison to bowing to the sensai with no ill intention. Allah judges our deeds with our intentions.

        Either way, I would accept my children to bow their heads only – but not like that or ruku or sajdah – just to teach them and make clear the concept of worshipping only to Allah and for the future.

        and Allah knows best.

        Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      • Abdullaah Bilal

        @Zainab & Asma, why then will the Prophet (saw) expressly forbids it, if only intention matters? The point is it is not acceptable, very clear from the hadith mentioned, & all the scholars above. The Prophet (saw) knew Muadh meant respect, not worship, yet he forbade it.
        Applying this is left for you as a Muslim, but unanimously it is haram.

        Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  12. Muhib Rahman

    Aqabah Karate in college park, MD is probably the only full time martial arts program in the US that operates with Islamic principles in mind. Actually, this whole bowing thing led me to establish this program with Darussalaam in Maryland. Styles taught are Korean Tang Soo Do and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. There is no bowing and there are separate classes for boys and girls. I love it when at competitions my students don’t bow and later gets a chance to explain to judges and fellow competitors that we only bow to God. Awesome Dawah in action!

    Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  13. N Iqbal

    The issue here, as with all issues, is to refer to the Quran and Sunnah and not what is in our benefit. If following Quran and Sunnah means giving something up for the sake of Allah then we should happily give it up without any uneasiness or resentment. May Allah (SWT) give us guidance to strive for His deen.

    Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  14. Murtala Alade Adedokun

    Assalam “alaykum. I really wonder how some of you still see nothing wrong in bowing to someone out of respect in spite of the hadith quoted above that a companion asked if one could bow in greeting a friend and the Prophet(s) said no. Of course the questioner couldn”t have meant bowing in worship since the context was clearly discussing forms of greeting. That the Prophet forbade it should be enough to make us reject it unless we’re compelled in a life/death situation. We africans do a lot of bowing in respect too; but it is not justified in the light of the hadith quoted above unless someone doubts the superiority of the Messengers guidance.

    Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

    Reply
    • Gibran

      wa alaykumusalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

      I was wondering that too. SubhanAllah, what is the matter with people who are willing to bow like this?

      Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      Reply
  15. Arif

    Alhamdulillah I don’t fully realize the blessings of going to a professional Muslim dojo until reading about situations like these :) http://www.facebook.com/aqabahkarate

    We also study Korean tang soo do, and have a peace sign we use with a fist in a closed hand embrace before we begin forms and sparring. Even the most traditional schools are cool with it.

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  16. Fulaan

    Masha’allah, the one thing I kept thinking while reading the article is that the concept of “Sujood being SOLELY for Allah” is now so strongly and deeply ingrained in the kids’ minds through this experience, they’ll never forget it for the rest of their lives. In fact, they learned it through an experience that no other book, article, class, movie, lecture or teacher could have ever taught them. Alhamdulillah!

    The only martial arts I have experience with is Silat, from Indonesian. My instructor was Muslim (practicing) so the greeting was to simply put your palms together in front of your chest while facing the instructor with your full body.

    Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  17. Murtala Alade Adedokun

    Dear Shaykh Yasir. Jazaakallaahu khayran for your efforts at da’awah. And may Allah pardon our shortcomings all.
    On second thoughts, I have this to share with you sincerely my brother:
    I’m a little disturbed by your use of “not baligh” in that answer you gave our sister. I hope people don’t generalize from here that whatever is haram for adults can be condoned and encouraged in our kids without there being a definite text exempting kids from that particular prohibition; for even if kids are not punishable for those acts, no correct logic can excuse the parents who encourage them on those haram acts. Imagine acts like stealing, lying, cheating, etc. which would equally not attract punishment if done by kids. Would a parent be blameless to encourage them to do these on the basis of “not baligh” also? The Prophet(s) says we share rewards or punishments with those we encourage to do whatever they do. How can we parents not be culpable then if we agree bowing is haram? I think the key factor to justify the permissibility of bowing (for kids and adults alike) is NECESSITY rather than their being “not baligh”; but how much necessity is there for us? That is the real question oh ikhwah.

    Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  18. Ali Mze

    Great topic Mashallah May Allah strengthen our iman and increase us knowledge of our beautiful religion Al-Islam ameen And jazakallah khairan

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  19. UmmNusayba

    Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah;

    In Debating Non-Muslims-1
    Shaykhul Islaam ibn Taymiyyah [rahimahullaah]

    Reference: Minhaaj as Sunnah: Vol 2 P. 58

    …like the well known story of al Qaadee Abu Bakr ibn at Tayyib when he was sent to the Christian King in Constantinople. The Christians respected him and knew of his standing so they feared that he would not bow to the king when he entered upon him, so they made him enter through a small door so that he would enter bowing down. However, he became aware of their plot so he passed through the door backwards, facing them with his backside, he did the opposite of what they intended.

    Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  20. umaneesa

    Alhamdulillah in Toronto we have separate martial arts for brothers and sisters, across the city. Instead of bowing, respect is ‘saluted’ by a fist held up, covered by the other hand. http://www.ummamartialarts.com

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Reply
  21. East Asian in a Muslim World

    To a Muslim, the teachings in your Quran are final and you will not do anything that goes against what is written in it since it is the word of Allah.

    However, culture is a very important value to people originating from East Asia, especially to those who stick very close to their traditions.

    The Grandmaster insists that everyone must do the bow to show respect, but you find that the Grandmaster was somewhat unreasonable since he cannot accomodate your unwillingness to do the bow, although it is a bow out of respect and not worship.

    Yet from the Grandmaster’s point of view, you are being unreasonable for not respecting their culture since he is not asking you to worship him through the bow.

    From the point of Islam, It is a good thing that your children did stand up for their beliefs by not bowing. However, although the Grandmaster did eventually give in, he might have been slighted and not been impressed by it.

    Imagine your feelings if you were forced to do something which is against the teachings of Islam. That is how some traditional East Asians would feel if their culture is not respected. I am in no way trying to equate a religion to a culture/tradition but I’m trying to emphasize on the importance of culture to East Asians.

    You have already tried to explain to him the reason behind not doing the bow and he still insist on your children doing the bow. In my humble opinion, you should have left this dojo and find another one which is hopefully taught by a Muslim or someone who does not incorporate these traditions in their teaching of Martial Arts. Although it is a good thing to stand up for your belief, I believe that it should be done without creating conflict (or at least, minimal).

    Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

    Reply
    • Abdullaah Bilal

      It is not only Asians that care so much about their cultures, all cultures are the same, but as Muslims you must know that some dawwah will start from you, it maybe very hard at the beginning, but in the end the awareness is created & others might enjoy your effort which amounts to reward for you till eternity. In Africa for example, the greeting is total prostration, in fact, you roll on the flour if it were to be in front of Kings etc, but some people started the dawwah, and today it is known that the Muslims do not bow or prostrate for others. It is not always the best to run away, what if there is none nearby?
      Do we want to continue under other cultures rather the culture of true Islam? If we take that approach people wont be able to differentiate between Muslims culture & what Islam forbids.

      Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      Reply
  22. April Lamda

    I don’t get it. IF you don’t want to bow then why are you in tae kwon doe? Also your children are too young to think about shirk or even be thinking of doing shirk! How is bowing for respect and culture worshiping them? Just as shaking hands with the opposite gender is not ;lustful, just a western greeting (if you live in the west)!

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

    Reply
  23. E. Wilson

    Here is an excellent article which reveals many things in the martial arts, like bowing to the sensei or sifu, which are hidden to the casual observer. I pray that it will be of help to you.

    secretdangersofmartialarts (dot) wordpress (dot) com
    Sincerely,
    E.Wilson

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

    Reply
  24. M. Joseph

    I take issue with this prohibition on bowing AND a waste of time to make ANY sort of big deal. It seems EVEN more arrogant that you would complain about this cultural practice that has always been a part of any traditional Chinese Korean or Japanese tradition of martial arts. Did you expect to take the cultural practice of the art form itself and then expect that the Master will shave off parts of the discipline just to fit YOUR worldview? This is the height of arrogance. Maybe you should just have your children only attend Muslim martial arts training if you’re so incensed by the beautiful and disciplined practices. I am sorry but you’re misguided here.

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

    Reply
  25. Abdullaah Bilal

    When Islam meets any culture, it sought to retain all the beautiful things in the culture & remove all the evils therein. She is paying for the service, it is not a free gift!

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Reply

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published.