Asalam Alaikum,

They told me that since Spitzer was on vacation, this woman was going to interview me as a discussion since she is not the debate type. She caught me off guard when she started attacking and twisting everything I was saying. She came off as very accusatory. Unfortunately they did not show the end of the interview where she shows her condescension and obvious bias towards Saudi.

I think Spitzer would have been a better, more logical, and on topic interviewer but Allah Knows best.

I used the pedestrian issue and having drivers to prove that driving in Saudi culture holds a different value than US culture. The point is that we need cultural context and not to go in arrogantly and assume we know best. It is important for Americans to begin to see that their way is not the only way and that each culture has a right to evolve independently and on its own terms. Perhaps I could have brought this point home better.

Jazak Allahu Khair.

Hebah

I second your hope and pray that there is widespread benefit from these interviews Insha Allah.

I have only been able to find the same Islamic justifications as you on this issue. The Ulamaa in Saudi understand their society better than we do so its hard to try to judge from half way across the world. We can only wait and see how this will evolve Insha Allah.

So that is all Hillary Clinton is to you, AAL, just a kuffar? You and any Muslim is “a million times better” than her, because you are Muslim, and she is a kuffar? You claim that Secretary Clinton does not care about Muslims, and does not do anything to protect women and children in America? On what are you basing these slanders?

Hillary Clinton has been successful at everything she has done she she was a child. She went to Yale Law School, the best law school in the country. Early on, she devoted herself to the rights of women and children, representing needy children and their familes in her law practice, often without pay. She was an extremely successful lawyer and political strategist. Before she held any political office, she helped found organizations to represent the rights of women and children, particularly foster children. As a politician, she has fought tirelessly and well for health care for all, including the most poor members of society. She convinced the Justice Department to make the prevention of violence against women a major part of its mission. She was one of the first major American political figures to call for the establishment of a Palestinian state. As a senator, Hillary Clinton was a fierce critic of President George W. Bush’s neoconservative foreign policy. Mrs. Clinton very nearly won the Presidency, and she might, just yet, become the first female president of one of the most important nation-states in the history of humanity. As Secretary of State, she has made womens’ rights a major focus of US foreign policy, which is undoubtedly why the Saudi Arabian activists see her as a potential ally. You may disagree with US foreign policy, even under Secretary Clinton and President Obama, but there are valid arguments that the US is fighting not only for its own interests, but also against the common enemies of most Muslims. Do you really think that Hillary Clinton, or the vast majority of non-Muslims, wish only the destruction of Muslims? Do you think they do not value human life? Do you think US foreign policy since Hillary Clinton has become Secretary of State is completely indifferent to people in other countries and, particularly, in Muslim countries? In fact, I see a US Administration that practically bends over backwards to be hypersensitive to the interests and attitudes of those living in Muslim countries. Hebah Ahmed, above, even praises Secretary Clinton’s very thoughtful and restrained statements regarding the Saudi Arabian driving ban against women. It seems to me that every criticism you have leveled against Secretary Clinton is patently false. You would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of people on this Earth who have accomplished as much as Secretary Clinton, or are as socially conscious as her. Yet, to you, she is just a “kuffar,” a word that is obviously a slur in your book, but which actually just means someone who was not raised in the Muslim religious tradition (i.e. five-sixths of your fellow human beings). What have you accomplished, other than an impressive sense of pride and self-righteousness, that makes you “a million times better” than Hillary Clinton? I sense arrogance! I sense prejudice! I see naked bigotry!!

I am truly disappointed that no other MM commentators are challenging the anti-kuffar bigotry expressed in AAL’s comment above. It is hypocritical to demand respect from non-Muslims, yet not to return the favor. Why does to take me, an atheist, to point this out? Where are the tolerant, loving, caring and open-minded Muslim commentators? If you are out there, please let me hear you, and restore my faith in humanity.

I wish that was true. They actually did 2 pre-interviews with me and knew my exact position. She was ready to attack before we started and seemed to be forcing her attacks in whether it seemed relevant or not.

I think they have to do this in order to put someone like me on otherwise they come off as too sympethetic to me and that could turn off the mostly ignorant viewers.

Allah knows best.

Jazak Allahu Khair Sister Ify.

Your points are well taken and offer a different and valid perspective.

There are two points I would like to add:

1. You state, “Most likely, it is precisely because the world was watching and talking about the earlier arrest of the activist Manal al-Sharif that other women were not harassed on Friday.”

Perhaps this is true. The issue I take with this statement is that it makes the Saudis seem like horrible oppressive men waiting to pounce if not watched and monitored. I think this is an unfair depiction. It is one I held until I recently traveled there and was surprised at how reasonable and polite many of the scholars and males were there. I also think this is a huge sticking point in the Western world in which they use Saudi as the epitome of repression and backwardsness. We need to create a more balanced view of Saudi without condoning cultural based injustice, specifically against women.

2. This issue is very complicated as Sh. YQ commented on in an earlier post. I spoke with an economics professor there who is appointed directly by the king for certain tasks. He explained that there is a growing conflict between the western educated elite who are liberal in their perspectives and have the ear of the king, against the conservative Islamic Scholarship. This manifested recently in the opening of KAUST, a secluded university complex that is gender mixed and follows a western model. When one of the King’s religious advisors spoke out against it on shariah grounds, he was removed from his position. Scholars are being intimidated to support certain changes and this could lead to an utter disrespect of the scholarship there. I believe the change for women’s driving should and is coming from a slow change in position among these scholars but if it is not done right, allowing the scholars to save face and maintain their credibility, it could be very bad. I think Clinton understands this and sees that western pressure could make this change hard for the scholars. I have also come to understand that as the internal pressure from women and men grows, this will facilitate the change of position among the scholars. This is why I believe the movement must continue to grow organically within until it reaches a critical mass.

This is of course my personal analysis and could be wrong. In any event, the arab spring is proof positive that Allah alone is in control and change will come when He Wills it, not because of western pressure. Allah knows best.

Takbeer!

Well said, Sister Jan.

I’m also calling for more prime space at the Ka’aba for the Sisters.

Glad to hear your perpective!

I received a text prior to the interview from a sister in Saudi who said this, “Priority for Women in Saudi are: 1. lack of social justice in terms of social insurance and healthcare, 2. unemployment, 3. no infrastructure of public transportation. Note: Only upper class can afford cars and some middle class but the most needy cannot afford it”.

I based my interview responses on this and speaking with 2 scholars who have lived in Saudi for over 20 years and confirmed this as well as say that they do not believe there is a large enough movement among the women to change the driving taboo yet.

I guess this goes to show its all about your perspective and experiences.

Salam all,

I just wanted to say, first and foremost, masha’Allah Hebah for your efforts. May Allah produce great good from your actions.

Although I agree with points 1 and 2, I would like to discuss 3 a little bit. Though it may seem hypocritical to outright reject the France hijab ban and demand for its immediate repeal, the situation in France is different than in Saudi. Although, both countries are violating human rights, France’s law is not only violating a human right, but alienating and dehumanizing Muslims into “the other.” This is extremely dangerous as it can cause further encroachment and marginalization of Muslims in France, and can lead to grosser acts of hate-crimes against Muslim communities.

Saudi’s violation of human rights, although repulsive, cannot be equated with dehumanazing and othering Muslims, so it is possible to allow for Saudi Muslims to change their condition in a more organic grass-roots way as Hebah was suggesting. Because this is a Muslim issue in a Muslim country, allowing for an internal natural process to change things will have greater impact on the community and prevalent attitudes. If some people think women driving or having more freedom in public life is immoral and scandalous, not allowing the community to evolve organically could cause social upheaval and result in a general loss of identity, direction, or further extremist measures.

The France ban is more out of fear-mongering and hate against a people, not out of culturally sensitive issues. The French constitution advocates for freedom, liberty, and equality, so the ban is actually going their cultural/state principles. They are just acting on hate and intolerance and not a moral sentiment which is the case in Saudi.

Any comments?

Jazakumullah khair for the responses.

Both of you mention that one of the main difference is that France is not living up to its own values. But that’s painting all democracies with the same brush. France has always been fiercely secular compared to other western democracies and for those who know French history, in a way these moves were not out of line with French values. Not to mention that France, like many Western countries, is going through a period of adjustment with minorities playing a major role in its society.

So on a closer look at the French society, many people might ‘understand’ why France made the move because these people are more familiar with the country. Just like being Muslims, many of us ‘understand’ or perhaps even support where Saudi government is coming from on this law.

Peace, as for bringing about change, there is more room for it in France because the system allows for it. When you look at Saudi, the average person can’t really do much to bring any changes in laws unless they belong to the ruling or scholarly class.

It seems like we all agree in the end that the Saudi laws needs to be changed at point or another.

Jazak Allahu Khair. I stand corrected. :) I really sympathize with the difficult situations many Saudi women are put in (and this is a huge issue in Afghanistan as well) when they do not have access to a mahram. May Allah make things easy for all our sisters and show us the right way forward Insha Allah.

Ameen.

Abu Abdillah, that is not a valid argument. If you disagree with Mezba, put forth your own argument.

I agree with most of what Mezba says, except the part about it being a good thing to “force” one’s values upon others. That sounds too close to an advocacy for violence.

Moderators, why does Abu Abdillah get to make personal attacks against other commentators like this, and I am the one being “moderated” (i.e. censored)? Oh, right, he has a Muslim name, and I don’t. Sorry for showing my ignorance.

-editors note: he doesn’t. His comment deleted when noticed.

Corrections to her statements?
This is a correction to YOUR statements by Islam Sets Me Free

1. Saudis’ culture bans women from driving not Islam. If it was Islam then ALL Muslim countries would be doing that. Even if the Saudi Scholars claim and use religion to make a ban on women driving that does not mean it comes from Islam. 1400 years ago, women rode horses/camels, if it was haram to drive a car it would have also been haram to ride horses/camels since that was the means of transportation back then and cars are today.

Your link http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/45880/women%20driving:
Ridiculous reasons? Such as these two paragraphs?
“2 – Rulings which are based on specific reasons, or where the ruling as to whether a thing is forbidden, allowed or obligatory depends upon whatever good or bad consequences will result from that, and where there is no shar’i evidence to suggest a fixed ruling that does not vary. The issue of women driving cars may come under this heading.” THERE NO SHAR’I EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST A FIXED RULING

“It is well known that it leads to evil consequences which are well known to those who promote it, such as being alone with a non-mahram woman, unveiling, reckless mixing with men, and committing haraam actions because of which these things were forbidden. Islam forbids the things that lead to haraam and regards them as being haraam too. “

My personal opinion I do not see them as ridiculous because they are true. Men and women (non-mahram) should not mix. A small conversation in the car could lead to exchanging phone numbers/email addresses then out to a date for a cup of coffee, dinner, movie, a kiss, etc etc. Shaytan does not come out and say go commit zina with him/her, he whispers his ways step by step. Even if one person’s intention is clean the other person’s may not be. Our prophet pbuh said between every two people the third party is shaytan. “Islam forbids the things that lead to haraam and regards them as being haraam too. “

2. I don’t agree with asking for Clinton’s help, they should ask Muslims within Saudi for help. Clinton’s position would come from her own Christian (?) American culture which is way different from Middle Eastern. I am Muslim Kurdish, from Southern Kurdistan or Northern Iraq, and I tell you most of my people are Muslims like the most Iraqi yet our culture varies.

3. Islam never enforced anything on anyone. Even back then, Muhammed pbuh preached Islam, people converted because they liked it and it made more sense than their jailiya ways. The war between believers and unbelievers started when the believers grow in numbers and the unbelievers hated that.

Allah SWT says in chapter 3 verse 110: “You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah. If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient.” This verse shows it has never been about “ENFORCING” what is right as you stated but rather “ENJOIN” what is right.

4. I have never been to Saudi Arabia, but from the pictures I have seen of Mecca I don’t ever recall seen cars but thousands of people WALKING.

5. I think when she mentioned the upper class she meant for Saudis not any other women from other countries.

I didn’t see her admiration for Saudi Arabia as she did state that she’s been driving since she was 16 and can’t imagine not driving. If there was an admiration she would stand with Saudi law with every word.

Islam Sets Me Free.
Random blogger.

Abu Sumaiyah, in your first paragraph, you claim to know the young woman’s intention in leaving her abaya open. Maybe she was just feeling hot or constricted. Maybe she just wanted to feel more physically comfortable. And if she wanted attention from men, so what? Everyone likes attention sometimes. It might be a little vain, but whose business is that but the woman’s? The man who was stomping at her was acting like a child, and was not minding his own business.

In your second and third paragraphs, you claim, without any significant reasoning, that allowing women to drive will lead to more women dressing casually or seeking attention. I do not see the connection. Driving is about transportation. Loose abayas are about style of dress. You say women who want to be able to transport themselves more freely also have morals that are more loose. You seem certain of this, but do not explain your causation theory. Perhaps if you could explain the connection better, I might understand. Are other countries outside of Saudi Arabia experiencing more fitnah because they allow women to drive? Would Muslims from other countries disagree with your conclusion?

You seem to think this is a Western “campaign” to “pollute” Saudi Arabian culture. I suspect you have an anti-Western bias bordering on paranoia. Am I being unfair in making such a guess? Do you have any evidence of an active Western “campaign?” Who is organizing it? What funds are they using? Why are they doing it? How are they doing it? If we were to ask one of the women participating in the protest, what do you think they would say about such an accusation?

That’s a weird story. But not nearly as weird as the correlation you attempt to make between a weird girl at a mall, the weirder man stomping, and women being able to drive in Saudi Arabia. I’ve been driving half of my entire lifetime, since I got my permit as a 15 yr old, and I’ve never walked weirdly around any malls with my jilbab open, trying to get people to stomp at me. Why haven’t I done this yet-is it because I haven’t been driving long enough? Why is that you were able to witness this strange, latenight mall madness in the absence of women being able to drive in Saudi Arabia if this is supposed to be what will inevitably happen if this rule is overturned? Do tell, inquiring minds want to know!!