Lara Logan, I’m sorry.
I won’t say it on behalf of the Muslim world because I don’t speak for them, so I’ll just say it from my heart, just me personally. I’m so sorry for what you experienced in Egypt on what must have been the worst night of your life.
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Readers may be wondering why I am offering my apologies. Of course there is the expression of offering your sympathies. That aside, I am also apologizing not only as a person and a woman, but as a Muslim.
Watching Lara’s interview at 60 minutes, I felt a great many things, but when I finished and shut my laptop, the overriding emotion I felt was shame. But not for Lara. Rather, I felt it for our ummah, our collective Muslim body the world over.
Of course, we are quick to say that the violent, carnal actions of a mob in Cairo are not representative of Islam or Muslims, and I agree. In the ten years since I became Muslim, nothing has made me incline more towards goodness and justice than adherence to my faith. But, brothers and sisters, nothing has shamed and embarrassed me more than the actions I see taken by Muslims on a regular basis.
Unfair media coverage, you may say. A latent agenda to malign Muslims, an imperialistic ideology by Western governments, a hysterical fear of Shari’ah, a scapegoat in a cascading economy. We are quick to become defensive, and I agree that the accusations hurled at us are more often than not spawned from deep-buried phobias and political agendas.
But not today. Today, brothers and sisters, I believe it’s time to look inward.
We’ve been on the defensive for a long time, so much so that it’s become second-nature for us to craft responses to these stories that reek of denial. We dare not admit our ummah‘s weaknesses for fear that if we expose ourselves, we will be playing into the very hands of those politicians, political pundits, and average-joe racists who so desperately want to convince the world that Muslims, and in particular Muslim men, are barbaric, oppressive monsters. We fear that if we admit to anything, we’re putting bullets into the revolver and handing it over to the people who would love to pull the trigger.
We live in fear, and our reactions (and inactions) are driven by it. Rarely are we ever intellectually honest with ourselves, let alone the public. The counterpoints we construct to accusations flung at us are lifesavers we cling to with sure knowledge that if we let go, we’ll drown. But what we don’t realize is that unless we take a risk and just let go, we’ll eventually drown any way.
What am I talking about? I’m talking about how it’s time we felt some embarrassment for our ummah. It’s time we felt ashamed. And if you don’t want to feel it, that’s fine. I’m here to tell everyone that I feel it. After watching Lara Logan’s interview, I felt embarrassed and ashamed to be a part of this ummah. I don’t feel ashamed to be a Muslim. I will never feel ashamed that I believe in one God, that I adhere to the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the guidance of the Holy Qur’an. I am always proud of that, but I am ashamed that when I look around, I see such disgraceful behavior from other people who also claim to follow this great religion and call themselves Muslims. I am ashamed that with the mantle of Quranic teachings, which seeks to reform human beings and bring them to dignity and justice, are people who stoop to the lowest behavior — behavior that not only runs counter to our religion but to basic human manners, courtesy, and common sense.
We are a collective ummah, which means it’s not your problem or my problem, it’s our problem. We have many problems and I think that we’ve been in defensive mode for so long that we even justify our wrongs in light of other wrongs transgressed against us. Except for a few of us, we don’t want to take ownership of our own social ills. We don’t want to admit that what happened to Lara Logan in a group of Muslims would probably not have happened in a rally in any Western country. When a story like this breaks, we usually feel a sort of sinking feeling, like “Oh my God, this is going to be so bad for us. Everyone is going to think all Muslims are crazy, again.” This is often mingled with anger – anger at feeling that, in general, Muslims are misrepresented, and negative stories that involve us are sensationalized.
These emotions of fear and anger are so reflexive that we fail to even address whether the story suggests a real problem that needs our attention. We are always deflecting, denying and excusing our own behavior, even if we have to dehumanize people like Lara Logan to do it. Some Muslims have refused to accept her story (denial) because she is a not a Muslim or have accused her of inflating it. Others have stingingly commented that it happens to Muslim women too, but only someone like Lara Logan gets coverage, so Lara’s injustice can or should be ignored because Muslim women are not getting any air time for their own grievances (deflection and conspiracy).
My bottom line? Our responses to these types of stories revolve around self-preservation from non-Muslim attackers. Personally, I think it’s high-time we made ourselves the first priority and PR towards non-Muslims the second. It’s time we looked ourselves in the eye and admitted that, by virtue of our backwards priorities, we are silently allowing the very behavior that we are so eager to distance ourselves from because we never want to take ownership of it. Instead of railing on “the actions of a group don’t represent the whole” to the non-Muslim populace, it’s time to say, “While these actions don’t represent Islam or all Muslims, they do represent a problem that needs to be dealt with by Muslims.” And as for what we should be saying to one another, we have to call it out, both because it’s wrong and because it’s the only way to eliminate it from within. And if you ask me, it’s not enough to have a handful of organizations put out a condemnation statement – that’s PR. It’s time we changed the status quo amongst ourselves. Muslims should be the most disgusted, the most horrified, and the most sympathetic to someone like Lara Logan. And finally, yes, I do believe we should feel embarassed. After all, how would each of us feel if our brother sexually and violenty assaulted a woman on the street? Is the concept of the ummah only for when we experience injustice and atrocity, or is it constant, even when the tables are turned? Saying that doesn’t mean we’re responsible for all Muslims, but it does mean we have a responsibility to all Muslims.
#Islam3 weeks ago
Ify Okoye
May 18, 2011 at 1:17 AM
Thank you Olivia, I watched this devastating interview on the Sunday night just before the news broke about the death of bin Laden. As a woman, a human being, a Muslim my heartfelt dua goes out to the abused everywhere from Lara Logan to Eman al-Obeidy and those whose names we don’t know. And it certainly gives one pause in reflecting on our own state and that of those around us.
Someone once said something along the lines of the most boring or regular thing in the world is that we continue to be shocked at our inhumanity and cruelty to others.
Amman Abdul Adl
May 18, 2011 at 1:41 AM
You know, it all could of been avoided if women listened and stayed in their homes until they need to leave out of necessary. So to the women who want to be “active members” of society, look what happened to Laura Logan. She had “good” intentions even though she’s a kaffar. She didn’t have to go there in Egypt? What was she trying to prove? This should be a lesson to all women that there is no need for you to get involved in politics or the society. Stay at home, obey your husband, and take care of your families. Leave societies problems to the men who are more capable of handling them.
So instead of being ashamed, let it be a wake up call to the all muslims (especially the women).
Allah Knows Best
AnonyMouse
May 18, 2011 at 4:08 AM
The ignorance of that statement floors me. Thank God the Prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) is our example, and not people like you!
al-Haarith
May 18, 2011 at 7:44 AM
Assalam alaikum Would you kindly specifically explain specifically the ignorance of the statement of “amman Abdul Adl”
Thanks
Wassalam alaikum
Tom
May 20, 2011 at 2:21 PM
The ignorance of the statement is this:
Amman Abdul Adl’s statement is that it is the right and proper role of Muslim men to force women to remain at home by raping those who venture out in public.
al-suyuufi
May 22, 2011 at 12:52 PM
That’s not what he was saying…
AFS
May 22, 2011 at 7:53 PM
No. What he was saying is that it was Lara Logan’s fault she got raped because she had the opportunity to avoid it by not being in the field in the first place. This is still an ignorant statement. There are no grounds to establish the claim that Logan deserved to be raped. You are putting more blame on the victim than you are on those that raped her and this is just absurd.
I understand the desire to make excuses for your brother, but there is no excuse for rape. Perhaps the temptation of being in the mere presence of a woman might be too much for some brothers to handle, but the solution would be for such people to remove themselves from society, not to remove all women from society.
Sadia
May 18, 2011 at 4:20 AM
What you are saying is so incredibly problematic and backward. This is exactly the kind of perspective the author is arguing against. Don’t you see? It’s time to ask the hard questions and not put the burden of responsibility on someone else. So its okay for a man to attack a woman if she’s outside her home? When is sexual assault EVER okay? Regardless of your view on whether Muslim women should stay inside or outside the home, it still does NOT justify sexual assault. And being the educated Muslim I’m sure you are, you would agree.
Siraaj
May 18, 2011 at 4:42 AM
So what you’re basically saying is that women should fear Muslim men because they’re not honorable enough that they can’t keep control of themselves? I hope you realize the silliness in this.
Siraaj
Maajid
May 18, 2011 at 4:58 AM
Systems preaching Islamic morals while implementing Liberal Secular values has put the Ummah into utter confusion and chaos. Islam is not just a set of morals but a total system which governs the society based on these morals and helps the society flourish while upholding these morals along with a comprehensive implementation of Islam in social, economic, judicial and political aspects of the society which then bring the fruits of Islam and its beauty as it brought in the past when Islam was really implemented.
The cause of this is emulation of western liberalism mixed with Islamic morality creating conflicting personalities. The fruits of this unholy collaboration cannot be so holy as some people expect and apologize about. If we want to really see the fruits of Islamic morality, then we also need to call and encourage the people who are calling for the system which respects the aspiration, emotions and beliefs of the people in Muslim lands which is not secular democracy or liberalism but a system based on Islam and Shariah. But, no – we only apologize but we do not give solutions which Islam clearly gives and which was the reason for Quran in the first place – to guide mankind and organize our lives in accordance with the Ahkaam of Allah, which include all aspects of governance and economic and social policy.
The western myth about this ‘modern apologetic’ Muslims is unfounded, in that Muslims will apologize for every crime committed by anyone with a Muslim name but they will not write such articles denouncing and condemning in clear words the foreign policy or western agenda in Muslim lands which is propagating this liberal inhuman culture to other lands in the name of ‘freedom’. While we do not apologize for the women raped every few minutes in USA, then why is it surprising that a woman was assaulted in Muslim land which is being cultured into this same culture by foreign interventions and imposition of tyrant dictators to promote this culture?
Until few months back, the same organizations said not a single word against the tyrants upheld by the western kuffar and the same masajid did not allow Khutbahs against Hosni Mubarak or Ben Ali or Saleh Abdullah, saying that it is not allowed in masajid to talk about those issues and today when western media has jumped into this topic, the same masajid are loudly talking about these same very tyrants. Did the shariah change? did the Ahkam of Allah change suddenly for this transition? Or are we following someone else’s agenda and we jump on issues when they say it is allowed to jump and we remain silent when they say we should remain silent?
Mayubelle
May 18, 2011 at 5:31 AM
What a great article Olivia! Mashalla. Some of the reponses we’re getting here, such as that from Mr Maajid, and even uncharacteristically ‘the truth seeker’ who otherwise seems fairly reasonable, are pretty disgusting to put it bluntly, and exemplify the very problems u have alluded to in your article, a strongly entrenched culture of denial and deflection.
Siraaj has been pretty civil in his responses to comments of this kind, I would have found it hard to be. The truth seeker states that “the torture and humiliation suffered by muslim women by the hands of foreign forces in muslim land is much much worse than this.” I think that very often the worst torture and abuse suffered by muslim women is delivered at the hands of thier co-religionists, and is not confined to isolated incidents but is systemic and highly prevalent, and sanctioned by the law of the land. But I doubt that the most hideous instances of this intra-communal abuse make maajid remotely indignant, while the mere mention of ‘the west’ will be enough to whip him up into a frenzy.
The Truth Seeker
May 18, 2011 at 5:43 AM
Mayubelle
I don’t know who you are but after reading your comments , I can certainly say that you lack knowledge and live in the world of illusions .
Never mind . There are a lot of people like you .
Maajid
May 18, 2011 at 5:49 AM
By ‘reasonable’ if you mean conforming to western liberalism or upholding democracy and secularism, or if you mean those responses which apologize for every scratch someone gets while in a riot zone where dozens of Muslims got hurt and killed while uprising against a western backed dictator (for 3 decades) then perhaps reasonable has a different meaning to different people.
Nobody is in denial nor ignorant about the incident. But, what use does it bring to study one incident in isolation and ignore all the collateral issues and the root cause of this conflicting values in the Muslim society, which on one hand seeks to uphold Islamic values but on other hand is being subjugated under liberal rulers who try to impose liberal values upon them under total support of western governments?
If such violence is ‘systematic and sanctioned by the law of the land’ in your own words, then again you cannot help but discuss who is being imposed upon the people as the ruler and what can be expected from a tyrant ruling with an iron fist, what kind of system emerges and what will be its fruits? How can we deny this reality and talk of an isolated incident which results from this ‘systematic’ corruption.
Now who is in denial, the one who studies isolated events without a comprehensive picture or the one who wants to discuss the comprehensive issues surrounding this isolated event and provide solutions from Islam which came as guidance to take mankind from darkness of kufr into the illumination of emaan. From the worship of other people (or majority people like in democracy) to the worship of Allah where majority cannot tweak the laws, nor the elite can buy the lawmakers as the laws are from Allah SWT which mold the society not just by moral and preaching but a comprehensive Islamic socio-politico-economic system.
Mayubelle
May 18, 2011 at 7:16 AM
Salam Maajid,
I think one problem is that people often conflate 2 different concepts, i.e They equate the western liberal democratic political model with the adoption of a libertarian, highly permissive and islamically reprehensible lifestyle. Basically the former refers to a set of institutions which endorse the Rule of Law (ensuring that no one is above the law), The separation of Powers (i.e having a totally independent judiciary, which cannot be influenced by by the executive and legislative arms of governement so as to ensure fairness and prevent corruption) and rule of the people via thier elected representatives( so that leaders have to deliver and can be removed procedurally if they are ineffectual or corrupt). I think that these are largely sound working principles.
I understand that u are also alluding to the fact that Allahs laws are timeless and should not be subservient to the changing whims and desires of the electorate.
This is a reasonable concern, but I dont believe that it renders Islam fundamentally irreconcilable to democracy. It is not difficult to entrench core Islamic principles and legal tenents in a constitutional instrument which sits supreme, and cannot be subverted by ordinary electoral processes.
And indeed, it is common to find, particularly in the muslim world, people who have libertarian or licentious lifestyles, but who otherwise hold extremely illliberal views. By illiberal here, I mean unegalitarian, unconcerned for those less priviledged than them etc. I don’t think that the tyrranical rulers you are adverting to are particularly ‘Liberal’, or come with a liberal agenda. Nor do I think that this is just a case of ‘Poor besieged muslims” versus “the Rapacacious, murderous, expoitative West”. I think that muslims have often been very much complicit in thier own downfall, and that there are many oppressive dynamics operating in muslim societies which occur wholly independently of west political or economic imperatives .
On another thread I was discussing something very similar with another blogger, in the context of the Arab uprisings and i’ll just replicate what I said in that instance to try and illustrate what I mean :
-I’ll say in advance i’m sorry for the long comment, and replicating a huge chunk of what i said from another thread, but my point is basically that we cant go on blaming others for our problems.
“I am a muslim woman living in the middle east, and I have to say a lot of young people here are extremely weary of the whole ‘America is Satan†narrative. I’m tremendously proud of the recent revolutions that have taken place in Tunisia, Egypt etc, and how the nationals of these countries have conducted themselves in overthrowing their leaders and seeking institutional reform. For decades these despotic regimes have also legitimised thier institutional failures,failed attempts at national building and failure to provide adequate service, education, employment etc by recourse to the whole ‘everything is a zionist/american conspiracyâ€â€¦a common ploy by all these states irrespective of whether they simultaneously recieve substantive US aid, be it in the form of arms or non-military assistance. The Zionist bogeyman is perhaps the most common deflection mechanism. I am not contesting the fact that US policy has been injust and very destructive ramifications in the past. But I believe that the fault lies primarily and overwhelmingly with us.
Where u take responsibilty for your own failures, take heart, put your trust in Allah and endeavour to change things, thats when Allah will facillitate change for you. The rallying cry of these recent movements was not “Death to America†or “Death to the Zionists’, it had a strongly domestic orientation, and it was about facing and addressing our own internal failures, and the systemic corruption which plagues our own society’s….not about pointing fingers and blaming others. And when u face your own problems, realise that they are primarily of your own making, and strive to address them, thats when you win other peoples respect. I think these recent revolutionary movements have generated a lot of respect for Egyptians and Tunisians (and indeed muslims) all around the world. I disagree with Lance that religion had nothing to do with these revolutions, it was a inspiration for many. Weeping and Wailing and screaming about how everyone is purportedly dead set against us and all out to get us would not have had the same effect. Respect has to be earned, it can’t be demanded. These dictatorships e.g Saudi might be backed by the US, but we have been endowed with agency, Allah has endowed us with agency, and the absence of a flourishing civil society, lack of foresight, lack of vision, lack of creative dynamism, and lack of courageous individuals in some of these countries cannot and ought not be attributed to the US. The blame game has gone on for too long, and it is petty and unbecoming for us as muslims”
SubhanAllaah
May 18, 2011 at 8:01 PM
@Maajid, MashAllaah may Allaah reward you brother.
be
May 21, 2011 at 12:17 PM
Although I thank Olivia for her initiative because it is sunnah to distinguish ourselves from evil acts and actions no matter who acted and who was the vicitim and condemn them….
I could not help but agree with the last part of Majiid comment!
I felt this way for so long and that is what I do not take too seriously shouyoukh stand on politics even though I respect and often obey on their knowledge and wisdom about Coran, sunnah etc… I mean what meat is hallal/haram, fiq of salat etc… is all good but when it comes to politics, civic actions well…NO!
I still remember some shouyoukh who laughed at people boycotting Israeli goods saying that Muslims were just too emotional and that the boycott was ineffective when it has been proven that it works to the point that Israel forced countries like France to pass a law making illegal because antisemitic (!) the same for GB you can google it, I will just pass the details….
The same for leaders …Muslims should never ever revolt against the ruler etc….but then when the event in Egypt and Tunis prove them wrong they suddenly were all supportive of the populace !?
And of course when the Libyan uprising started some went ahead and attacked Kadaffi and supported the insurgents – rebels whatever . ..when a quick read online from respected website hold by anti mondialist and progressists or by depicting the message of politicians who are hard core sionists supporters of Israel (such as Sarkosy, Liberman etc…) were all ready to help those poor Libyans against the horrible Kadaffi …Well this would have been the time to say you can not rebel against the ruler cause more misery and destruction will be coming up after that…Look at Libya OTAN bombing civilians, Israel supporting the rebels and lobbying at OTAN for more raids in exchange of a military base in the border of Libya and Algeria if the rebels win…. nice….
so yes Br Majiid I ask too ; ” Did the shariah change? did the Ahkam of Allah change suddenly for this transition? Or are we following someone else’s agenda and we jump on issues when they say it is allowed to jump and we remain silent when they say we should remain silent?”
a muslimah
May 25, 2011 at 2:48 AM
salaam
this is unfortunately true…
Aishah Kelly
May 18, 2011 at 7:47 AM
really? That’s your response? I know we are supposed to make excuses, and cover the sins of our brothers and sister; but if they are OPENLY committing sins, we cannot just sit back and blame the women. I agree that it would have been prevented if she had not been there, but that doesn’t change the fact that it did happen. I don’t think that a woman should be in the midst of a crowd of men under any circumstances. The thought of if horrifies me, but it still does not excuse this behavior. This is NOT the Sunnah of Rasulullah (salallahu alayhi wa salaam). Neither he nor his noble companions (radi Allahu anhum) behaved this way. The Qur’an orders men to lower their gazes. Do you think that the Muslim armies were going insane like this when they conquered new territories? Some of these territories consisted of slave women who were required to go topless, and yet these noble Mujahideen did not forget their religion when faced with this temptation. If they desired a woman, they married her. Even the slave women were treated with dignity and respect. I suggest to you, my brother, that you study your Seerah. Read the series on the women of Islam for starters, read about the wives of the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wa salaam). Stop making ignorant statements that make Muslim men seem like barbarians to the rest of the world. For the record, I do believe that women should stay in their homes, unless they have reason to go out (be it recreation, seeking knowledge or for business). I believe the woman should be accompanied by her mahram whenever possible, and I believe the women should obey her husband feesabillah. (It will be our means to enter Jannah). I just don’t think that a woman who, (either in ignorance or blatant disobedience), puts herself at risk is an excuse for men acting like savages. When they stand in front of Allah on the Day of Judgment, will they be able to use that excuse? I don’t think so. My husband is living in a European country. He has women proposition him on a regular basis, and he does not take them up on the offer. He passes women dressed like they are selling themselves on the streets on a daily basis, and he just lowers his gaze and seeks refuge with Allah. If Muslim men can control themselves in this type of environment everyday, how is it EVER excusable for them to behave this way towards a women. She is not their wive; they have NO right to put a hand on her. It is a real shame that this happened in the midst of what should have been a shining moment in our history, subhannah Allah.
Maajid
May 18, 2011 at 10:56 AM
Salam, we are not really making excuse for a sin and crime committed by a mod of civilians. We do not even know their religions as people of all religions were in the crowd apparently.
What makes us trolls is that we are not stopping at this apology but also extending our thinking to look at the historic, socio-political issues surrounding this isolated event, which sometimes is not so pleasant to those who are trying to appear ‘moderate’ and trying hard to ‘fit in’ into the secular liberal ideology dominant today.
The very fact that, one set of people are totally denied any responsibility does not give justification to the other set of people who are denying or completely overlooking any larger issue which surrounds this whole situation.
I under she got an apology from the Muslim Ummah but do we stop at the apology or go forward and talk about the Islamic solution which does not come only with preaching morals but with a full set of guidelines from Allah with a complete code in the Quran about how to uphold these morals and mold society into those ideals which we are expecting to see from Muslims. Why is it that the whole apologetic crowd gets upset at the thought to calling for Islam as our deen and suddenly they want to fit-in Islamic morals into a secular democratic socio-political system? Did Allah SWT not give a full system and just moral ideals which we need to uphold? Does the present system of tyrants/democracy/kings totally upheld by the western governments throughout 4-5 decades in Muslim lands really uphold moral values of Islam in its laws? Did we write articles about those and if not, then it is time Muslim Matters starts reflecting on the Islamic system as an alternative and use its media and resources to call this Ummah to come towards the deen of Allah and not just morals which is only one aspect of Islamic Deen. I wish, someday I see an article on this website inviting the Muslims to uphold their deen and shariah and implement Islam as a system in its entirety. May Allah help this Ummah counter these tyrants and reach its aspirations of living by the deen of Allah, Ameen.
just a sister
May 19, 2011 at 2:01 AM
May Allah reward you greatly brother.
Amman Abdul Adl
May 18, 2011 at 11:34 AM
Salaam to all,
I expected such an outcry after I posted my comment. Making assumptions and jumping to erroneous conclusions after reading my post.
Did I mention anywhere that Laura Logan deserved to be treated this way? Did I say that the men shouldn’t be punished? I simply addressed the reality of this issue. The men who did this should be punished and no one should tolerate this type of abuse. No man has the right to sexually assault or rape any women. The situation could of been avoided if Laura Logan was not trying to be “Wonder Woman”. She has been to these areas before. She knows the culture. Why did she go? Because that’s what journalist do…she says.
Think about it, even with 3 men protecting her she was treated this way. There will never be a perfect world, and people (especially our women) need to wake up. Bad things will happen and women will be the victims.
You have Muslims in the west and the east who are in denial about what’s happening in the world because there emotions are getting the best of them. I don’t agree with Maajid and Truth Seeker’s approach (even though they’re speaking the truth). They’re simply mentioning the other side of the story…
If i’m being harsh or insensitive, then please forgive me.
Allah Knows Best
Sumaya Um Sara
May 18, 2011 at 11:28 PM
*their
Wow, even in elementary school I knew the difference between their, there and they’re. Someone hasn’t been to school in awhile :) I guess all men aren’t as smart and capable as you would like to believe.
Just want to say ALLAHO AKBAR ALHAMDULILAHi RABBIL 3LAMEEN Allah blessed me SOOOOO much with a husband who uses reason, intellect and is on the true Sunnah of the Rasool saws. After reading some comments I realized how truly dumb and lost members of our Ummah are sobhanAllah. Allah yahdee kol al muslimeen, ameen.
Hidayah
May 18, 2011 at 10:35 AM
That is the most insanely crazy and ignorant post I think I have ever read.
The wives (ra) of the Prophet and the women of the early community were out and known by the people.
May Allah guide us all.
Amman Abdul Adl
May 18, 2011 at 11:50 AM
Salaam Sister,
I think you really need to reevaluate your understanding about the Prophet’s Wives. They would of never walked around like the women are today. They spoke their minds and then were ordered to stay in their houses (which was commaned to all women by the way).
Men and Women are both disobeying Allah’s commandments and that is why the ummah is this state.
Allah Knows Best
Neutral
May 21, 2011 at 8:11 PM
Sister stop denying and start accepting. Believe it or not there are muslim women that are raped in their houses in front of their husbands. We seriously need to look inward. And to all the mothers, please take care of our childs deen. The problem starts from negligence of parents in matters of the deen right from childhood.
SabrunJameel
May 18, 2011 at 2:23 PM
Assalaamu alaikum,
My first reaction to ”You know, it all could of been avoided if women listened and stayed in their homes” was a big laugh, because I couldn’t believe people STILL use that line.
What if Lara was a boy; who will be up for blame now ? Will you deny that this is a problem among muslims too? Akhi I know cases where muslim men rapped muslim teenage boys in my own little community; should they also be locked up in their homes?
UmmSarah
May 18, 2011 at 2:49 PM
That is so disturbing and sick. I can’t fathom how human mind can sink so low.
Mayubelle
May 18, 2011 at 6:47 PM
Amman Abdul Adl’s response is truly disgusting and sick. Particularly the line
“No man has the right to sexually assault or rape any women (unless she is whom your right hand possesses.”
Me
May 18, 2011 at 11:52 PM
You should stay home and never leave and while you’re at it keep your mouth shut.
Abd al-'Azeez
May 19, 2011 at 8:27 AM
‘Ayb ‘alayk.
People like you have no honour to speak from behind a screen without any manners. We will see your face on the Day of Judgement.
chuck hird
May 19, 2011 at 12:55 AM
I am disapointed to see this kind of response to a very sincere apology by a Muslim for bad behavior of other Muslims. Bad behavior is not a Christian thing or a Muslim thing, it is just bad behavior and we all should be opposed to it. By responding that Ms. Logan was at fault and should stay at home and let men deal with these things, is what Islamaphobes mistakenly expect to come out of the mouths of Muslims. What Olivia had to say was appropriately appologetic about some bad acting Muslims. We know the majority of Muslims do not want these bad things going on, and we need to let everyone know the majority agree with the action Olivia has taken with a public apology.
chuck hird
May 19, 2011 at 1:00 AM
This comment refers to Amman Abdul Adl comment.
Amad
May 19, 2011 at 9:28 AM
I agree with you Chuck… Very disappointing comments.
a muslimah
May 25, 2011 at 2:52 AM
exactly Chuck. Lets blame the people who did harm not person who actually went out in defense of the Muslims
Faatimah
May 19, 2011 at 1:18 PM
shame on you for such a disgusting comment. instead of getting angry at the criminals, you’re blaming the victim.
Carlos
May 20, 2011 at 2:52 AM
Amman Abdul Adl, comments like yours are the problem, not the solution.
Osman
May 21, 2011 at 11:15 PM
WhaaaT????
EDIT: Disagree, but express yourself w/better words.
Free
May 23, 2011 at 4:23 AM
I would just like to say, as an adult woman born and raised with amazing freedoms and opportunities in Canada, that the majority of the comments coming from men on this issue confirm all of the stereotypes and negative bias towards Muslim men in western culture. When I get into a debate with a Muslim defending the purity and righteousness of thoughts, actions, and teachings of the community, I will direct them here to see a true example – one of disgusting, backwards human beings.
This apology was beautiful and heartfelt, but the replies make it a shining contrast to that of the apparent major belief and practice system.
Sabeen
May 26, 2011 at 11:34 AM
Seriously? Are you actually saying this?
Nafees
June 4, 2011 at 6:37 PM
That is a very misogynistic statement. You do realize that Muslim women during the Prophet Muhammad’s (peace be upon him) time had an active role in society and politics? So a woman is not allowed to pursue intellectual desires? You may have not stated that directly, but you certainly implied it.
May Allah guide us all towards the path of Truth.
R
May 20, 2015 at 4:33 PM
Asak I demand from my brothers should have high standard of morales than any others . Follow and put your gaze down even if a naked women (not that I am advocating such indecency) pass my brothers faith should win not they impulse period.
Allah o akbar
Maajid
May 18, 2011 at 2:05 AM
Salam,
> Perhaps an apology is also due to the public of Egypt persecuted and harassed since decades due to the continuous and unrelenting support by US media and government to the dictators and tyrants which crushed the aspirations of the people while fulfilling the western agenda.
> Perhaps an apology is also due to those millions of Iraqi children who died due to lack of medicines during a decade of unjust sanctions by the US while the world watched nonchalant.
> Perhaps an apology is also due to the hundreds of Afghan kids being killed in drone attacks and ‘fun killing’ as reported in the news in the past months and years, not to mention the adult civilians.
> Perhaps an apology is also due to all those African children who are victims of the hypocrisy of the west in breeding snakes to control lands while shedding crocodile tears when their own snake bite the innocent civilians.
> Perhaps as a Muslim it is also necessary to put things in perspective and explain a bit in detail of all that lead to this lady facing what she faced, decades of open, widespread support to a tyrant and their tyranny, illegal arrests, nonjudicial killings and torture chambers under the direct supervision of these very tyrants whom the Muslim Ummah has rejected and removed only to be facing with new faces appointed by the same hypocrisy of the west to undermine the real aspirations of the people.
> Perhaps while we are apologizing for a mob’s actions as a Muslim, we should be apologizing to those Muslims who are not even alive to hear our apology for decades of silent and apologetic attitude ignoring the double standards and trying to fit Islam into the western agenda instead of fitting our own lands into the agenda of Islam.
Perhaps those innocents who live and face those things daily in those lands will not even get an apology… perhaps their blood is cheaper than the blood of a journalist who was a victim of the same tyrannic mob-rule system encouraged and supported by these very western nations.
The Truth Seeker
May 18, 2011 at 5:45 AM
Majid …
What a interesting and a marvelous piece of justification
Zak
May 18, 2011 at 6:55 AM
Perhaps it is time we stopped blaming everyone else, and started looking at ourselves. We blame the Jews we blame the Christians; we blame everybody else but over selves. Enough is enough. Just because everybody else is like that do we become like them? No, we are Muslims. MUSLIMS.
“Perhaps an apology is also due to those millions of Iraqi children who died due to lack of medicines during a decade of unjust sanctions by the US while the world watched nonchalant.” – The blood of these children is on our hands. We didn’t help them. We as 1/5 of the population of the world didn’t help them. So we should be apologising, not only apologising but sincerely asking for forgiveness. What will become of us if we are questioned on the day of judgement? Are we going to blame the US, the Jews and Christians on the Day of Judgement too?
@Amman Abdul Ad: It could have been avoided if people feared Allah, and didn’t bow down to their whims and desires. It is high time men learnt to control themselves.
Amman Abdul Adl
May 18, 2011 at 11:58 AM
@Zak,
you’re 100% right but I want to add something to your statment:
“It could have been avoided if people feared Allah, and didn’t bow down to their whims and desires. It is high time Men And Women learnt to control themselves.”
Allah Knows Best…
SabrunJameel
May 18, 2011 at 2:34 PM
” Zak
May 18, 2011 • 6:55 AM .
Perhaps it is time we stopped blaming everyone else, and started looking at ourselves. We blame the Jews we blame the Christians; we blame everybody else but over selves. Enough is enough. Just because everybody else is like that do we become like them? No, we are Muslims. MUSLIMS.
“Perhaps an apology is also due to those millions of Iraqi children who died due to lack of medicines during a decade of unjust sanctions by the US while the world watched nonchalant.†– The blood of these children is on our hands. We didn’t help them. We as 1/5 of the population of the world didn’t help them. So we should be apologising, not only apologising but sincerely asking for forgiveness. What will become of us if we are questioned on the day of judgement? Are we going to blame the US, the Jews and Christians on the Day of Judgement too?
@Amman Abdul Ad: It could have been avoided if people feared Allah, and didn’t bow down to their whims and desires. It is high time men learnt to control themselves. ”
WORD
Well spoken mashAllah
Nafees
June 4, 2011 at 6:39 PM
Zak, I entirely agree with your statements. We need to stop blaming the media, the West, or anything else. We as Muslims are human beings. We aren’t perfect angels; we ourselves have human flaws. We keep blaming this or that, but what efforts have we ourselves made to better our situation?
Hena Zuberi
May 19, 2011 at 2:32 PM
At first I didn’t understand Olivia’s need to apologize either- I think the word apology carries different meanings to different people and varies culturally.
Linguistically- the root word apo means to separate
from the original meaning “frank expression of regret for wrong done,”
When I initially heard about this-I too felt that why is one assault greater than all the other assaults carried on Muslim women-
but that didn’t diminish my feelings of despair for her and being so so ashamed. Hearing her story in detail makes me think this was more than a sexual assault, they would have killed her if the women and the soldier hadn’t saved her. Her experience reminded me of the other mob killings like Mujeeb and Mughees, when the anonymity of being in a mob, break all social barriers.
This is a letter that the churches in our community sent to us when the Quran burning pastor was threatening to burn the Quran.I read Olivia’s heartfelt post in this perspective and appreciate that she wrote it. Maybe it will help you understand-
They did not need to do this- they did not burn a Quran personally- It made me as a Muslim living in this city feel solidarity and support -Many good people in this country don’t believe in the nonsense that is spewed on FOX TV or support the crimes done in their name by their government aboard.
Amad
May 19, 2011 at 4:05 PM
Excellent. It helps my earlier point of why apologies have a special meaning in American psyche.
Amman Abdul Adl
May 19, 2011 at 7:45 PM
Sister Heba,
Its a shame that you post a letter by the kuffar. The kuffar should not be emulated or even admired. Regarldess if they do good, it is pointless in the end. We could never trust the kuffar. By all means it could be a cover up just to show their true intentions.
May Allah protect us from the manipulation and the plots of the kuffar…Ameen!
Allah KNows Best…
Aly Balagamwala
May 20, 2011 at 9:53 AM
Dear Brother Amman
I would like to learn more about your viewpoint on this subject. You mentioned that
“The kuffar should not be emulated or even admired. Regarldess if they do good,”
Does that mean that we do not learn anything from the “kuffar” about any subject? Whether it be business, science, etc? Or is it just good manners and morals?
The Prophet (SAW) said that he had been sent to perfect good character. He (SAW) also said that were a certain human rights charter he was part of before revelation been done after revelation, he would still have been part of it. So can you say that he did not want us to learn anything at all from the non-Muslims?
I personally have learnt a lot from non-Muslims and a lot of things I learnt helped make me a better Muslim.
And indeed Allah does know best.
-Aly
Amman Abdul Adl
May 20, 2011 at 4:20 PM
Brother Aly,
Just like many “radical” muslims are told not to take on incident and take it out of context, I tell you the same thing. Looking at one incident of the Prophet (S) does contradict my statements at all. He did things to an extent to pacify the kuffar, but he did not mention them in khutbah’s to prove a point or to make us feel guilty.
Look at how Allah mentions them in the Qur’an:
“For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.” 8.55
“Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle;- nay, they are worse astray in Path.” 25.44
“O you who believe! Take not as (your) bitaanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made clear to you the aayaat (proofs, evidence, verses), if you understand. Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures [i.e., you believe in the Tawraat and the Injeel, while they disbelieve in your Book (the Qur’aan)]. And when they meet you, they say, ‘We believe.’ But when they are alone, they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage. Say: ‘Perish in your rage. Certainly Allaah knows what is in the breasts (all the secrets).’ If a good befalls you, it grieves them, but some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it” 3.118-120
So brother, you should reevaluate what you have learned from the kuffar. Again, i’m not trying to make people angry. Why are we believing in an Islam that doesn’t exist. Its upsetting to see so many muslims watering down the religion just to pacify themselves and the people they around.
Allah Knows Best…
Aly Balagamwala
May 21, 2011 at 9:26 AM
Dear Brother Amman
You are correct that one incident does not set a rule. However, I do believe that the Prophet (SAW) was sent to perfect good character and unfortunately often in all these forums and quest to PROVE THE OTHER WRONG we forget that major point: good character.
I do not claim to be very knowledgeable or well read on a lot of aspects of Islam, but I truly and strongly believe that first and foremost Islam advocates turning the non-believer towards Islam and not pushing them away. By the harsh unyielding attitude that is often adopted we ensure that non-believers are pushed away from finding the true beauty of Islam. I am not saying that we should take them as close advisers, confidants, or our source of guidance. I am however saying that we CAN NOT discard their knowledge as HERETICAL just because it is THEIR knowledge. If something is not contradictory to Quran, Sunnah, and the understanding of the Salaf I will Insha’Allah be the first to reject it. However, to say that Allah (SWT) meant by 3:118-120 that we should not take any outside source of knowledge is a bit too much.
I am sure there were plenty of things you learnt in college that had their origins from non-Muslim sources. Are you telling me that you do not utilize any of it? How about the Internet? Isn’t that from a non-Muslim inventor? Should we not use it then?
I know that my statements will not influence you immediately to look at the world from my view point and neither will I immediately start seeing yours. And I know that we may never really change our views. But I do know that I will not be disrespectful to a fellow human being because of his differing views. And I will not be disrespectful to a non-Muslim even if he continues to disbelief. I believe that the purpose of Islam is not to hate the person but his values and disbelief.
In the end it is Allah (SWT) who will guide both of us and the non-Muslims to His path. So we should pray to Him to guide all of us. Aameen.
Carlos
May 20, 2011 at 3:02 AM
Maajid, how dare you try to justify this mob sexual assault with some juvenile and half-baked geopolitical propoganda points?! Your kind of thinking is what is wrong with humanity. You are part of the problem. I know you are too much of a bigot to take advice from a kaffar, but you really need to do some serious introspection.
simple
May 21, 2011 at 3:26 PM
Muslims should not bury their head in sand and deny about this crime and injustice nor should they cover their heads in sand to try and appease others by hush hush about atrocities against the innocent civilians across the world by people in uniforms. One crime does not justify other crimes, but it often happens that one crime without justice does become a motive for other crimes. Sometimes it is just revenge, sometimes rage and sometimes just mental imbalance or mob rule. So we need to look at the comprehensive picture surrounding this event and try to find a solution from Islam.
Carlos: I do not see him justifying any crime here, rather reminding people that we need some more articles with apologies to thousands of more raped and still being raped daily and thousands of kids left orphans, etc etc. If we cannot identify and catch the culprits in this case, why not we try and at least catch those in uniforms and clearly identifiable and taken to courts for ‘justice’? To begin with, why not you start reading up on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and also add some news and case of dr.aafia siddiqui… your whole life might not be enough to write for every person just 1 article each and apologize for what was done to them.
Sarah
May 18, 2011 at 2:21 AM
What happened to Lara is ugly, horrific & I symapthize with her completely,
and any victim anywhere in the world, no matter who they are.
However, I did not hurt her personally,certainly my religion & ethnicity do no promote or encourage such behavior. On the contrary, such things are complete anathema to them.
A crime is a crime. Wether it happened in Srilanka, Austalia or Morocco.
Apologizing on behalf of a criminal just because I share something in common with them & not with the victim is really nonsense. What makes me or my community personally responsible in any way? I am not emabressed at all, such crimes happen worldwide because humans are the same everywhere. A criminal is not my brother, I had no say at all in his life or decisions. I do not have control even over my real brother’s behavior, but at least I would have some influence.
I had a very several racist encounters last summer in Canada, which has great reputation for tolerance. Would I like an apology? Yes but from the racist person not ALL Canadians.
Sadly, we are desescending to the point of apologizing even for looking or having a different belief than what is considered acceptable or cool by the media.
midatlantic
May 18, 2011 at 7:05 AM
THANK YOU Sr Sarah! It is sufficient for us that the Prophet disassociated such actions from our deen already: the Messenger of Allah, salllalaahu alaihi wa sallam said, “A fornicator does not commit fornication while he is a believer, and someone who drinks does not drink wine while he is a believer, and someone who steals does not steal while he is a believer. Someone who robs, while people raise their eyes to look at him doing that is not a believer when he robs.”(Bukhari)
Nayma
May 19, 2011 at 5:48 PM
Agree Totally
Abu Maryam
May 19, 2011 at 6:05 PM
Sister Sarah has replied with the best answer possible – Masha’Allah!
Sister Olivia, although you apologised to Lara from your own self and as a Muslim – it SEEMS indirectly
you are also apologising for the sins of our ummah, when you say “Lara Logan, I’m sorry… the overriding emotion I felt was shame. But not for Lara. Rather, I felt it for our ummah, our collective Muslim body the world over.”
Why are we feeling ashamed of the ummah of only this horror incident? The fact of the matter is, the ummah is doing sick things every minute!! I had one sister come to me, this week, to get advice on that a friend of hers wants a divorce because her husband is committing some sort of zina… with his own sister! A few years back – a sister confided that her father was sexually abusing her!
I try to be active in the community and people trust me and tell me their problems – I did not feel ashamed of being a brother or a father or a Muslim- I look at things in isolation and put it into perspective- people will sin and do the most vile, horrific and unimaginable things.
Of course I felt rage, disgust and probably wanted to wish death on these men – but do i need to apologise to the victims personally myself? Please tell me – I may be wrong.
The mob who assaulted Lara were vile people, regardless of whether they are Muslims, Christians, Jews, x,y,z or Atheists. Having watched the interview, Alhamdulillah, these people on 60mins, did not refer to any religion; the victim, Lara herself, did not mention religion but mentioned Egyptian men! So why are you apologizing as a Muslim, sister Olivia? It is understandable that yor emotions have overwhelmed you.
I would agree in apologizing to her as an avenue in giving her da’wah – that would seem fine. But to send an open letter type apology does not seem right – you can correct me and show me the wisdom in that then I have to agree!
BTW, The sister Lara had security with her 3 to 5 men, she organised it beacasue she knew she had to protect and prepare herself for teh worst case scenario; however, for a woman, she failed to secure herself in the best of ways – wear the hijab, beacuse Allah says, in approximate meaning:
(33:59) O Prophet, enjoin your wives and your daughters and the believing women, to draw a part of their outer coverings around them. *110 It is likelier that they will be recognised and not molested. *111 Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. *112
So, here you go Islam has the answer to her security startegy!I am sure if she wore a proper hijab she would not have had anything happen to her unless the men thought she was a fake.
This “You Muuuuslims give us an apology or condemn so and so” hysteria is something new to the UK too – everytime some misguided or sick Muslims do misdeamonours or crimes, they (secularists) expect us to go on tv, media or whatever, and apologise and condemn ‘Abdullah so and so and Mohammed so and so… and also make sure you say… this not part of Islam, this is extreme, this is this or that…. The fact of the matter the crimes are so blatant that any idiot knows that this wil be wrong regardless of what religion or belief or un-belief you follow! In a way it is good da’wah but don’t forget on other hand, why don’t they get the Christian, Jews, Atheists to do the same?
Like I said there is good in it – do it for da’wah!
This is my top 5 list, of what I would be ashamed about Ummah of, in rank order:
1. Islamic State – we have so many islamic states, republics and ‘stans’ – yet none of them can implement the true Islamic systems and laws
2. Palestine – the only people/county in the world which is occupied by a foreign people and eat away into the lands, hearts and souls – yet the ummah, and the whole world, cannot do or doesn’t want to do anything about it. The UN takes votes;200 countries support a resolution for Palestine, yet 1 country, USA, vetoes it and renders and paralyses the 200 votes to the trash can – how is that fair: their democracy?? [or “the mockery” as I like to call it.]
3. Poverty – people starving and dying everyday when our zakah from our ummah alone can maybe keep the whole world alive and in prosperity.
4. Weak leadership: at all levels- Imams scared to talk,Scholars scared to talk. Doesn’t ahve to be blatant but talk with wisdom about serious issues in your locality, country or ummah-wide
5. Not enjoining the good and forbidding the evil: People are remind/advice other. for e.g. scared to go to the Muslim store and remind/tell the brotehr, in a brotehrly way, not to sell alcohol! I know a brother who did this, and the store saw the error of their ways and stopped! How much reward will this brother get?
For the mob – no.5 was absent – maybe the good guys could not see it – if they did, then Lara would have saved from her hell.
Allah knows best – Maybe I got somethings wrong here, in terms of my perception of what sister Olivia is trying to convey/discuss – if you can correct me – by all means I open to that!
For those people who love to see Shakespearean English and would love me to go back to school – if there are mistakes in the English then you can be the proof-reader as i have not done much on this : )
Abu Maryam
May 21, 2011 at 4:08 PM
Please MM moderators – brother Siraaj or Amad can you delete the reference to the zina story and sexual abuse story – it is a sensitive issue and subject and I don’t want certain people to discover this and it causes problems -plus comment itself too. JazakAllahu Khairan
Abu Muhammad
May 21, 2011 at 2:48 PM
Jazak’Allah khair, Sister Sarah for your comments.
I have read the comments on other new sites as well regarding this incident and nowhere have I seen anyone blaming this on the Muslims or for that matter Egypt. Many Europeans are all too aware how such situations can generate into this type of disgusting behavior. A famous scandal took place in the 90’s where some women in the US Air Force were assaulted by their own peers.
Too bad, there is no shariah law to lash these degenerates with whips for their rotten assault on this lady.
The Truth Seeker
May 18, 2011 at 3:24 AM
Have you forgotten all those thousands and thousands of muslim women who were raped in Bosnia, Iraq ,Afghanistan and Kashmir .
The west never punished or executed any one of their people against this crime … did they ??Nobody from the west apologized for them . Then why do you expect muslims to show soft side . Don’t you think its a double standard .
http://www.asiantribune.com/news/2009/10/03/rape-iraqi-women-us-forces-weapon-war-photos-and-data-emerge
http://www.countercurrents.org/kashmir-hashmi310307.htm
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/pakistan-affairs/194151-gang-rapes-and-molestation-of-women-by-indian-army-in-kashmir.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_Bosnian_War
STILL EVERYDAY I DON’T KNOW HOW MANY MUSLIM WOMEN ARE RAPED … HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN THEM ….
As the sexual harassment issue in Egypt , let me tell you , in U.S.A itself , in every 2 min , one woman is raped .
P.S I have my full sympathy with Ms.Lara logan but that doesn’t change the fact that the torture and humiliation suffered by muslim women by the hands of foreign forces in muslim land is much much worse than this .
Carlos
May 20, 2011 at 3:08 AM
Wasn’t it the Americans who stopped the Serb rape of Bosnian Muslim women? Do you only see the facts that fit your worldview?
simple
May 21, 2011 at 10:01 AM
The Americans did that to fight the Russians, if they were so concerned about stopping rapes.. they better stop the rapes and ‘fun killings’ by American troops in several countries. If you do not know and want evidence, then just read 100s of news articles in mainstream media as well as 100s unaccounted in Muslim media with photos, narrations, eye witnesses and even sometimes apologies from the US commanders when they are unable to hide or whitewash those incidents. Stop living in a fantasy world and look at what your troops do to people which drive them to extreme reactions, shame shame. Now go ask your govt to release dr. aafia siddiqui after raping her million times and torturing her without a trial and now a trial with a sentence for what? we have photos and witnesses of her torture and rapes in jail, but no photos of witness of her alleged crimes, so you asking for evidence? go ask your govt and fight for her release and the hundreds detailed in guantanamo and several secret prisons without trial.
WAJiD
May 18, 2011 at 4:33 AM
Salaam Alaikum,
Good article and important message. I did a very similar article recently that may be useful:
http://tinyurl.com/4ywgam5
Mr GQ
May 18, 2011 at 4:33 AM
Wow! Seems like someone is running for office. Text book example of someone who is apologetic because they want to be accepted.
When are we going to read an apology for the Muslims that have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Edit: Can’t wait to read an apology regarding the NFL lockout.
Siraaj
May 18, 2011 at 4:44 AM
@TruthSeeker @Maajid @Mr GQ: The points you raised in your comments are already covered in the article – the atrocities of others against us doesn’t excuse our injustices towards others. We don’t base our standards of honor and dignity on how we are treated, but by the example set by the Prophet (SAW). I would encourage you to read the details of the Ba’ir Ma’oonah tragedy in the Madinan era.
@Sarah: As Muslims, we are not responsible for the crimes of others, only our own actions. We are, however, responsible for enjoining good and forbidding evil, starting with ourselves, our families, and our communities. In many Muslim majority lands, this behavior from men is far too common AND socially acceptable. Also, as I mentioned to someone elsewhere, we often apologize for the behavior of those close to us when they violate someone’s rights. As an example, if you’re spouse, parent, or some other relative was rude to a friend, you might apologize to the friend even though you had nothing to with what was said – you might even feel embarrassed, though you did nothing.
Siraaj
Carlos
May 20, 2011 at 3:17 AM
Siraaj, it is wisdom from people like you that makes me think that Islam does have positive ideas to contribute to human development.
simple
May 21, 2011 at 10:07 AM
You pat my back and I pat your back!
a muslimah
May 25, 2011 at 3:04 AM
Brother Siraaj you are awesome! She did mention all those points and it does not hurt you or make you any less if you apologise whether you did something or not. People say sorry even when they did not do things. Such as I’m sorry your father died. I’m sorry you got hurt. I’m sorry this happened to you. And Yes Laura as a sister, as a woman and even as a Muslim (I’m assuming the men were Muslim) I am extremely sorry this happened to you.
mohammad
May 18, 2011 at 4:55 AM
Assalamualaykum, I sympathise with the woman if she is speaking the truth, as Allah tells us to verify the news of the faasiq firstly and secondly, as the truthseeker mentioned, this is a whole article on the attack on one non muslim(which isnt’ justified in anyway) but where are the articles mentioning the thousands of sisters who are raped? Where is the sympathy there? They are getting raped on a daily basis, our brothers are getting raped on a daily basis and yet I have not seen any articles on that…
It’s easy to brush it aside and say yes it was mentioned in her article, so we are saying that a whole article for her and a slight mention of the muslims suffering is sufficient??
Carlos
May 20, 2011 at 3:24 AM
Who are these Muslim brothers and sisters “getting raped on a daily basis?” Who is doing the raping? Please be more specific. Please give some examples, and explain whether and how the authorities are complicit. Right now, it sounds like you are almost trying to justify a documented rape against a Western kaffar woman with some vague allegations of rapes being committed by unknown persons against Muslims.
simple
May 21, 2011 at 10:11 AM
Dude, you really need some catching up to do about media and war crimes of the US troops. Infact, most of the cases are in the mainstream media with photos and witnesses. Several times, with apologies from the US commanders when they are unable to white wash those incidents and so on. You are talking about a mob doing a crime here, what about ‘disciplined’ soldiers on a killing spree killing for fun (search for the ‘the fun killings’ reports from afg-stan online). Wake up my brother, you are still dreaming. NO those crimes DO NOT justify this crime, but you are in total denial about those documented facts while the above crime is just a self-narration whose other eye witnesses do not even agree with this narration. Come out of the denial and embrace the truth.
The Truth Seeker
May 18, 2011 at 5:34 AM
Muslims are blind now ….
U.S FOOLED every person on this planet earth even United Nations that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction . They invaded that country on that basis .
Now show us where are those WMD’s , where are they ?? . MUSLIMS CAN’T SEE THAT HUH ??? , BUT WE HAVE THIS AUDACITY TO WRITE A WHOLE ARTICLE FOR A SINGLE KAFFIR WESTERN WOMEN DESPITE THE FACT THAT OUR SISTERS AND BROTHERS ARE SLAUGHTERED EVERY DAY . What a joke .
What I personally think is that Muslim matters shouldn’t even publish this article . After reading this article , many muslims must have been disillusioned by this site .
Muslims have now become hypocrites so that they can mix up with the west .
All this secularism , democracy and every single system is CRAP .
NO SHARIAH , NO PEACE .
Na
May 18, 2011 at 7:51 PM
We, as Muslims are told not to harm people especially non Muslims, and Allah inshallah will reward those Muslims that have died in vain and at koffar’s hands. But we must NOT be like them. Allah wants us to be peace keepers not corrupters. Non Muslims are always reverting to Islam and I think Lara will not be one of them now.
Have you heard of this Hadith?
“A funeral procession passed in front of the Prophet (pbuh) and he stood up. When he was told that it was the coffin of a Jew, he said, “Is it not a living being (soul)?” (Book #23, Hadith #399)
He (pbuh) respected every human being, why shouldn’t we?
I don’t like what happening but I can’t get caught up in it and start hating. I can only feel sorry for them.
Amman Abdul Adl
May 20, 2011 at 4:26 PM
Na,
Is that a Sahih Hadith? But still, it doesn’t prove your point. One isolated incident doesn’t take away the general rule on how we should think of the kuffar and treat them.
If Ms. Logan doesn’t convert to Islam because of whats done to her then she will still be amongst the losers…
Allah Knows Best…
Aly Balagamwala
May 21, 2011 at 9:43 AM
Dear Brother Amman:
Yes the Hadith is Sahih.
If Ms. Logan doesn’t convert to Islam because of whats done to her then she will still be amongst the losers…
I am not sure why Ms Logan would convert to Islam BECAUSE OF what was done to her. We pray that she will Insha’Allah be guided but to think that such an incident (even if it is an exaggerated account as some say) would be the reason for her conversion is not very likely. Yes Insha’Allah she may choose to understand her attackers and this may lead her to study and accept Islam (which is not the actions of those men).
Let’s pray that Allah guides her to the Straight Path and get to know Islam.
-Aly
Mr GQ
May 18, 2011 at 6:19 AM
Siraaj,
Was there an apology when the World found out that Osama’s body had been dumped into the sea?
Siraaj
May 18, 2011 at 12:19 PM
There have already been articles written by other non-Muslim intellectuals condemning these actions. I suppose that’s the difference between us and them – within their group, they’ll call out wrong for wrong, regardless of which side their on.
I believe we should be leading on this, not following. Leading for the sake of Allah, not for PR points.
Siraaj
Maajid
May 18, 2011 at 12:35 PM
Salam, the difference between non-Muslim intellectuals writing about it and Muslims writing about it is that Non-Muslims do not accept the Islamic deen and Islamic system from their Aqeedah perspective, so we cannot expect them to go further than apology or analysis towards a solution, as the western countries could not solve their own violations against women and now high growth of those acts against innocent children with the jails full and the law unable to handle this phenomenon.
As Muslims, we certainly need to take the lead and as you said, not for PR points but for dawah to Islam. This is the very important difference between them and Muslims, is that Muslims have their Aqeedah and the Deen, a system which emanates from this Aqeedah which came to solve these very problems of humanity. It would be very beneficial to the Muslim world as well as the Western world if we showed the perspective of how Islamic system has a comprehensive Shariah and rules which solve these problems and not just stop at apologizing, because apologizing is good but it won’t solve the root cause and as intellectuals you would want to remove the problems from its roots and Islamic system/deen came to accomplish that task and not only brought rituals and morals theoretically.
So, how many of the writers here will have the next article on Islamic Shariah law as alternative to the status quo in Muslim lands? (not even talking about western world for now)
How many ‘concerned Muslim intellectuals’ will begin demonstrating the solutions to these social and other economic issues of Muslim Ummah and awaken the Ummah to embrace Islam as its ideology and help to promote public opinion in favor of Islamic system in Muslim lands? And promote the overthrow of dictators, kings and tyrants to replace with Islamic system and election of ruler under Islamic system?
If we are really seeking a change to better, then perhaps the western system have nothing better to offer as the world already watches the fruits of liberal values emanating from secular democratic systems under capitalism. And moreover as Muslims, don’t we already agree that Islamic deen is the ‘best’ of all the deen/systems? We need to learn more about the Islamic system and discuss more about how the Prophet SAWS replaced the kufr system to Islamic during his 11 years of struggle in Makkah, inshallah then we will proceed one step forward from apologizing and to action for solutions inshAllah. May Allah help us all in promoting and bringing the change promised by Prophet Mohammed SAWS.
Prophecy of the return of the Khilafah upon the Prophetic example
تَكÙون٠النّÙبÙوَّة٠ÙÙيكÙمْ مَا شَاءَ اللَّه٠أَنْ تَكÙونَ Ø«Ùمَّ يَرْÙَعÙهَا Ø¥Ùذَا شَاءَ أَنْ يَرْÙَعَهَا Ø«Ùمَّ تَكÙون٠خÙلَاÙÙŽØ©ÙŒ عَلَى Ù…Ùنْهَاج٠النّÙبÙوَّة٠ÙَتَكÙون٠مَا شَاءَ اللَّه٠أَنْ تَكÙونَ Ø«Ùمَّ يَرْÙَعÙهَا Ø¥Ùذَا شَاءَ اللَّه٠أَنْ يَرْÙَعَهَا Ø«Ùمَّ تَكÙون٠مÙلْكًا عَاضًّا ÙÙŽÙŠÙŽÙƒÙون٠مَا شَاءَ اللَّه٠أَنْ ÙŠÙŽÙƒÙونَ Ø«Ùمَّ يَرْÙَعÙهَا Ø¥Ùذَا شَاءَ أَنْ يَرْÙَعَهَا Ø«Ùمَّ تَكÙون٠مÙلْكًا جَبْرÙيَّةً ÙَتَكÙون٠مَا شَاءَ اللَّه٠أَنْ تَكÙونَ Ø«Ùمَّ يَرْÙَعÙهَا Ø¥Ùذَا شَاءَ أَنْ يَرْÙَعَهَا Ø«Ùمَّ تَكÙون٠خÙلَاÙَةً عَلَى Ù…Ùنْهَاج٠النّÙبÙوَّة٠ثÙمَّ سَكَتَ
“There will be Prophethood for as long as Allah wills it to be, then He will remove it when He wills, …
then there will be Khilafah on the Prophetic method and it will be for as long as Allah wills, then He will remove it when He wills, …
then there will be biting Kingship for as long as Allah Wills, then He will remove it when He wills, …
then there will be oppressive kingship for as long as Allah wills, then he will remove it when He wills, …
*** and then there will be Khilafah upon the Prophetic method” and then he remained silent.” (Ahmed)
May Allah hasten the glad tidings of Mohammed SAWS by bringing back our Deen as our system to govern us under Islamic social, economic and political justice
Siraaj
May 18, 2011 at 12:42 PM
Maajid, eloquence is not in writing paragraphs of unrelated material, it’s in staying on point in the discussion. I admire your passion, but I have to also ask you to stick to the discussion itself, or the comments will have to be moderated or edited, and I’ve already stretched MM’s comment policy so that everyone could “vent” (thus proving the point of the article :)
Your response about apologies proves the point further – everyone on your side of the discussion has been asking, where are their apologies? When they are shown, for various reasons, they are not good enough anyway. Thus proving the point – nothing is good enough for our victimhood.
Siraaj
Maajid
May 18, 2011 at 12:52 PM
Perhaps the article was trying to analyze the event and look at the possible solutions? I am not sure what was the intention of the article, was it only to apologize and stop there or extend it into analysis for a solution and if a solution is to be considered then my comments would not really be terms as ‘irrelevant’ rather they provide the solution which come to Allah to eliminate these kinds of incidents.
As you can see from my various posts here, I have not ‘screamed’ victimhood in every post, rather a look at possible solutions from Islam and Islamic Aqeedah. Victims will get their due compensation on the day of judgement as per Allah’s judgement, what we need to concern about is the guidance of Allah which has already come to us to avoid or mitigate such atrocities.
It would certainly be more logical and productive to apologize and discuss further the solutions, this will benefit both the Muslim Ummah as well as the rest of the world inshAllah. I can see that my post of comparison between democracy and Islam is awaiting moderation. Why do have to stop at apologies and make it end there, why not discussion is extended to the solution of these problems instead. JazakAllah khair.
Muddassir
May 18, 2011 at 7:04 AM
Well brothers this is due to increased incidence of watching pornography by Muslims, and increasing muslim males have lost all respect for women. And some of the comments made by presumably muslims here are frankly disgusting. One wrong does not justify another wrong. Please stop watching pornography and consider the fact that the same women that you are watching is someones sister and daughter. Even though the porn actress has no respect for herself you must have respect for all women. And women are not just made to be in the home only. They are also working women and we require muslim doctors and engineers, etc. Even if she were a jew that is no reason to rape her. Even if she is uncovered that is no reason to rape her. Remember that one day we have to stand before our Lord.
This disgusting mentality of some of the muslims has to be condemned. But I won’t apologize for someones action just because they happen to be Muslims. I would rather want these people to be identified and appropriate punishment according to the Sharia be given to these rapists.
Aishah Kelly
May 18, 2011 at 7:52 AM
Good point, masha Allah. May Allah protect our men from this fitnah. May Allah make it easy for us to protect our daughters from marrying men with these afflictions. AMEEN ALLAHUMA AMEEN!
Sohan
May 18, 2011 at 3:38 PM
Pornography, by far, depicts female participants CONSENTING to sex. You know, not screaming, not crying and not desperately resisting? Not having to be subdued and mounted like a sack of potatoes? Often even revolutionary (by standards of traditional patriarchal societies) concepts like women initiating and enjoying sexual relations? How these translate to brutally thrashing, forcibly stripping and violently violating women until they tear and bleed and black out from the agony … hmm, I really can’t see the connection here.
I call red herring.
MW_M
May 18, 2011 at 7:22 AM
Wow, seriously guys? The comments on this article are enough to make want to crawl into a hole and never come near the Muslim blogosphere again. What kind of perverted reasoning do you people have that you can seriously criticize someone for condemning rape??
Abdullah
May 20, 2011 at 6:20 AM
Correct. And this is why the admins of this website should not allow these fruitless discussions that turn people away from Islam and weaken their faith. I stopped reading this blog a long time ago since many times the articles descend into name-calling and personal attacks, not to mention the proliferation of conspiracy theories and radical ideology.
Nusaybah
May 22, 2011 at 1:08 AM
@MW_M No one is criticizing her for condemning rape. You know very well that no one here agrees with rape. What is being criticized is the fact that she feels the need to apologize to this reporter, as a Muslim, for something that (unless she caught a flight there and back) has nothing to do with her or Muslims. And the fact that she is ashamed to be a part of this ummah because of this incident of which there is no proof.
Just because something is said in the media doesn’t make it true. They themselves have admitted to being dishonest on many occasions. I’m sure everyone remembers the recent media blackout in the USA involving the CIA agent in Pakistan.
Amad
May 18, 2011 at 7:24 AM
What a disappointing thread of comments. Where did all the trolls show up from??
The Truth Seeker
May 18, 2011 at 7:45 AM
Wow … now we are labelled as trolls …. Mashallah …..
LearningArabic
May 18, 2011 at 3:38 PM
How did you know that he was talking about you…lol
Abdullah
May 20, 2011 at 6:22 AM
This is why the admins need to do a better job moderating the comments. People are turned away from Islam when they see the bad behavior on these threads. This is endemic to Muslim Matters.
a muslimah
May 25, 2011 at 3:09 AM
I think the administrators are doing a GREAT JOB! MASHALLAH MAY ALLAH SWT REWARD THEM TENFOLD FOR ALLOWING EVERYTYPE OF OPINION AND SIDE
F
May 18, 2011 at 7:53 AM
Assalamu Alaikum sr. Olivia,
The point about no one helping from the crowd is actually a very common feature in such cases. Studies have repeatedly shown that when someone needs help and a crowd of people are present, majority of the time no help will arrive because no one feels the responsibility to act because they are in a group and assume the other person will.
Whereas if someone needed help and an individual was passing by, most of them will help the victim because they feel responsibility since no one is around.
Very counter intuitive but does explain the odd phenomenon of groups of people not reacting to emergency situations.
Aishah Kelly
May 18, 2011 at 8:00 AM
Sometimes I think that there is a group of non-Muslims who go onto these comment sections and pretend to be Muslim for the sake of further tarnishing the reputation of Muslim men. At least I hope that’s what it is. The Prophet (salallahu alayhi wa salaam) said:
“The best among you are those who have the best manners and character.” [Sahih al Bukhari, Vol. 8 No.56]
I think we all know that Allah Subhannah wa ta’ala said:
“Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is aware of what they do.” (Quran 24:30)
Allah is aware of what they do! Thanks to sixty minutes the entire world is aware of what they do. I did not see a proof that this attack happened, but if it is the truth then shame on these men. Shame on them for tarnishing a great moment in Egyptian history with backwards and barbaric behavior reflective of the Jahiliyyah. May Allah forgive us. Ameen
a muslimah
May 25, 2011 at 3:11 AM
LOL I thnk the same thing sometimes! That certain nonmuslims are just pretending to be Muslims to make Muslims look bad Allahualim
Ahmed
May 18, 2011 at 8:04 AM
Absolutely well written and expressed Sr. Olivia. When I first heard about this horrific crime and then later watched the interview, I cringed and was horrified this could take place. Though knowing the reputation of the men in Egypt and their treatment of women that I’ve read in the last few months, I though that at least during a unifying time and moment in history that the Revolution provided, we would not have seen such despicable action. Sadly, this is an especially shameful deed in my eyes as a Muslim man – having grown up with loving women, both older and younger than myself, hearing about this made me feel so repulsed at our sex – everyone has a mother don’t they??? Even if you don’t have a sister (I don’t, not by blood at least), the fact that you have a mother, and that a given woman is someone’s daughter, could be someone’s mother – how can you even dare to dishonor, humiliate, molest, rape and almost kill any woman, regardless of background?
Indeed, shame on us, shame on those men.
UmmSarah
May 18, 2011 at 8:18 AM
Comments on this article are proof Sr. Olivia’s point. Muslim ummah of these times would never admit to any fault, there are always the victims of all sorts of injustice, but they themselves are never the perpetrator. Someone with an ounce of human decency would not dismiss these heinous crimes or blame the victim, but that’s the default thinking mode for a lot of Muslims, self preservation.
What I truly fear is that people like Amman Abdul Adl, TruthSeeker, Mr GQ, Maajid are not the exception but the norm of our Muslim ummah. There is no sense of self reflection in these people, trolls indeed they are.
Amad
May 18, 2011 at 8:47 AM
UmmSarah, they are not the norm. Most, if not all, have been on our automod or banned lists at some time.
Maajid
May 18, 2011 at 11:13 AM
Salam, firstly what makes me a troll? Did I say it is acceptable to do such an abhorring act like the one perpetrated by the mob, irrespective of who is a victim, a crime is a crime.
I was only encouraging people to move forward from this apology and look forward and ask themselves, ‘now what?’. Instead of sitting and apologizing and stopping, what solutions does this Ummah have and what issues surround these problems? What is the comprehensive picture of the state of this Ummah?
1) We are apologizing because this sin was committed in a Muslim land by a mob (supposedly Muslim) although the crowds consisted of Muslims & Christians from several reports in the media. I understand we apologized for those crowds not upholding the moral values of Islam.
2) But, then what? Do we apologize and go back to our lives? Why do we have to be such reactionary people. Why can’t we discuss the surrounding issues in a civil manner without being labelled as ‘trolls’ and thrown into a ‘ban list’? One hand the ‘moderate Muslim’ groups uphold freedom of speech and liberal values on the other hand they talk about ‘ban and censor’ while my posts did not even contain a single statement condoning this sin, nor did I use swear words, nor did I incite violence, nor did I deny this issue- my crime was that I tried to look behind and ahead of this issue and see what is missing in our ummah which has thrown it into this kind of lifestyle which is associated with western world really where domestic violence and assaults against women are mere statistics of every minute and a convicted rapist can go free after a few years in jail for ‘good behavior’.
3) This is the very system being promoted in Muslim lands under the guise of ‘democracy’ we are actually being fed with secularism and liberalism while our rulers are imposed upon us by the same west who is now shedding crocodile tears against the same very dictators it installed and upheld for decades against the civilians. You tell me, what kind of people will come out from this system, morally sound society or a corrupt and degrading society? What kind of people come out of US society looking at the statistic? What kind of people came out from Islamic societies when Islam was the system implemented?
4) Once again, something for reader to think about: Does Islam give only morals and not a full deen to reach and propagate such morals in the society? Does it ask to chop the hands of some thieves while not making it mandatory on the ruler/Imam to provide food and clothing to every citizen and the currency /economy without riba and based on real value and the ruler being elected and not imposed by others or from dynasties? Does Islam not have its unique system of law which is not subject to majority desires but subject to evidences from Quran & Sunnah? Is Islam a deen or is it a set of theoretical moral values which will implement themselves as a system automatically?
If this makes me a troll, in looking for a comprehensive solution and turning to Islam as a deen being the solution, then the readers need to contemplate what is being fed to us here- a Muslim is a good Muslim if they fit into the secular framework and uphold morals of Islam and a Muslim is a troll if they talk about solutions from Islam contrary to secular democracy.
WAJiD
May 18, 2011 at 8:52 PM
Salaam brother Maajid,
What you say makes sense and is undoubtedly true. How can anyone argue with you when you are essentially saying that we must treat the disease (the lack of Muslim unity upon Islam) rather than the symptoms?
However, I do think that maybe your previous comments have been misinterpreted and give the impression that perhaps you feel that we need not be apologetic for an action that is visited a hundred times a day on Muslim women in more reprehensible ways and at the hands of state actors rather than unknown assailants in a crowd.
Both of you and sister Olivia are right. Olivia is right that what happened to Ms Logan is unacceptable and should not have been allowed to ever happened in the first place. And you are right in that the best way to comprehensively deal with such a sick mentality is to unite upon Islam. One does not preclude the other.
Abdullah
May 20, 2011 at 6:25 AM
It sounds like you’ve been listening too much to Hizbu Tahrir.
muslim
May 20, 2011 at 8:27 AM
What does Hizb say, why not we all go and look up right from the horse’s mouth instead of middlemen? I shall read both aspects inshAllah
Mr GQ
May 18, 2011 at 8:29 AM
Seems like I have struck a nerve.
Not once did I say that the acts of some perverts are justified. If I did, please show me where I either justified or condoned. Until then, let’s not get all excited.
All I am saying is let’s be consistent. If you want to call out some Muslims for such an indecent act, then be balanced and call out the kuffar for indecent acts. Otherwise, articles such as Olivia’s scream, “Look at me, I’m a nice Muslim so accept me.”
Where were the apologies for Osama being dumped into the sea?
Where were the apologies for the Imams that were kicked off the plane a couple of weeks ago?
You know very well what U.S. is doing to the women captured in Iraq, Aghanistan, during the raid of Osama’s compound, in Gitmo, etc. Why aren’t we apologizing to the Muslim World for those acts?
Siraaj
May 18, 2011 at 12:29 PM
GQ, the problem with your post is that it tries to read the intentions of another person (last I checked, only Allah knew that) and that it assumes MM doesn’t already have articles covering other atrocities.
In both cases, your problem is a lack of knowledge. For the former, you should resign yourself to the idea that there are some things you will never know, and for the latter, you can do a search of the site and quickly remedy this misunderstanding, insha’Allah :)
Siraaj
Abdullah
May 20, 2011 at 6:30 AM
Where are the apologies from Al-Qaeda for blowing up thousands of innocent Muslims and non-Muslims in the name of Jihad?
Where are the apologies from the Muslim Brotherhood for spreading their toxic anti-Semitism-for-votes across the Muslim world?
Why do we always want to take the focus off of what our community is doing wrong and instead blame someone else?
zaynab
May 18, 2011 at 8:33 AM
Assalamulaikum Sr. Olivia,
JazakiLlah khayra! The sunnah is to be brief and you, mashaAllah said everything in your article. Well done and well said!
Khadeejah Islam
May 18, 2011 at 11:21 AM
Dear Lara,
I know my apology may not compensate for the horrible incident that you endured, but I am apologizing in the hope that you get a small amount of relief. I also commend you for your courage in speaking up against injustice. Please do let us know if there is anything we can do to ease your sufferings or to help you in your quest towards justice. You will be in my prayers always insha’Allah.
May Allah grant you a quick recovery. May Allah heal your wounds. May Allah grant you patience. May Allah grant you justice both in this world and in the hereafter. May Allah protect you. Ameen.
Dear Olivia,
I completely agree with you and I have shared your article in the hope that it raises some awareness in the Muslim ummah, so that we can collectively denounce such oppression and so that Sr. Lara gets quick justice insha’Allah.
May Allah reward you immensely for bringing this topic to light and not forgetting your sister in humanity. Ameen.
Regards,
Khadeejah Islam
Writer at http://www.habibihalaqas.org
wade
May 18, 2011 at 11:22 AM
i would never apologize for folks i do not kno.
Mansoor Ansari
May 18, 2011 at 11:22 AM
I don’t think we have to apologize for someone else does but if I read the article, the author is apologizing not on the behalf of Muslims or other Muslim women… i don’t really understand on whose behalf she’s apologizing at the same time.
yes, modesty is part of Islam and when women go out they need to make sure they are dressed modestly as not draw attention to their beauty.
With that being said, even if a NAKED woman is standing front of a you, it doesn’t give a man the right to TOUCH her, rape is too far. A Muslim man should lower his gaze at this time & walk away… that’s what Islam teaches us.
Having lived in Middle East and muslim & non-muslim third world countries, I don’t think this is a muslim issue. The way I see it, these r conservative societies which r being fed liberal values thru the media. After watching movies, shows which r fiction not reality these men tend to think, it’s not women who don’t want to be flirted with, have sexual relations, etc but it’s the society who’s stopping it and that Women r fine with it.
They need to wake up & smell the coffee, plug the plug on that TV!
islam first
May 18, 2011 at 3:24 PM
good point
Sohan
May 18, 2011 at 3:57 PM
“these r conservative societies which r being fed liberal values thru the media. After watching movies, shows which r fiction not reality these men tend to think, it’s not women who don’t want to be flirted with, have sexual relations, etc but it’s the society who’s stopping it and that Women r fine with it.”
Hmm, I can’t quite recall having watched any “liberal values” TV show or movie that depicts women as having a positive perception of sexual harassment and rape. Surely if “liberal values” TV shows and movies are inspiring men to think that women like to be treated this way, they should be depict these acts positively. For that matter, they all seem to depict women enjoying consensual sexual relations. But how can that be?
I call red herring.
Mansoor Ansari
May 20, 2011 at 12:56 PM
Yes, TV doesn’t show positive perception of rape but sexual harassment – YES!
Not to sound crude but there r countless movies & music videos that come out that show men oogling at women especially the those that don’t dress up modestly and women taking such oogling as a compliment. The hero pursuing (stalking would be more appropriate), teasing, smacking them, making her life hell till she falls in love with him. Doesn’t happen in reality but movies & music depict this and YES believe it or not many men think this will work in real world! Many in the developing world perceive western women to lacking in morals & are loose… where do they get this from Hollywood.
I m just saying it like it is for many men as I grew up in that world & perception of western women in not positive at all, one knows the reality only after coming here. Even here in the west I have witnessed men make very inappropriate comments in public & the surprising part was to see majority of women taking these as a compliment!
When Allah(swt) ordered women to cover up & travel with mahram etc I m sure it so bcoz he knows what’s best for us & he knows nature of his creations. When we abandon his teachings, we will face fitna.
Siraaj
May 18, 2011 at 11:37 AM
@mayubelle – thanks for the kind words =) A lot of these responses were expected, as were the arguments. Most responses break down into:
– Look at all the wrong done to us and…
– Where is my apology?
– I’m not responsible for this, so it’s not right to apologize
The basic premise in all these arguments are exactly as the article above states – deflection. My wife will respond soon insha’Allah, she’s taking care of the kids right now =) Suffice it to say, the response probably won’t need but a paragraph or two.
@Amad – Normally, comment spammers are trolls, but I think the emotion the topic generates is natural and may not apply here. As the article points out, even the most well-intentioned in our community will deflect on this issue. Let all the comments in, I think the discussion will be educational and productive, insha’Allah.
Siraaj
ahlam
May 18, 2011 at 11:54 AM
Wait, I don’t think they were humans at that point…they were animals?Those should be sent to Saudi for public flogging, putting them in jails for a brief time is not enough. They should be publicly humiliated : named and shamed.
A thankyou to the egyptian soldiers and women who did the right thing. BarakAllahu feehim.
Saba
May 18, 2011 at 12:48 PM
Agreed! may Allah bring these criminals to justice. SubhanAllah we need to tackle this problem. A woman should be the most safe on the streets of a Muslim country ..yet the sad reality is that they are more safe in non-Muslim countries at times. The ummah needs to rid itself of these vices and bring to justice those who think they can sexually harrass women…..we will never get any respect until we start respecting our religion and abiding by Its laws.
a muslimah
May 25, 2011 at 3:16 AM
AGREED what animals! Thank you to those Egyptians who stopped it !
Sarrah B.
May 18, 2011 at 12:30 PM
Olivia, that was so eloquently on point! Jazakh Allahu Khair for this piece.
Olivia
May 18, 2011 at 12:54 PM
Just to let everyone know, I will insha’Allah be coming on this evening to respond to comments. Thanks for your patience! =)
SakinaS
May 18, 2011 at 2:34 PM
JazakAllahu Khayran Olivia for writing this. No matter how much we apologize to Lara Logan or any other woman who has been through this tragic incident, it wouldn’t be enough. Especially those people who had this kind of experience with Muslims.
It’s not about women going out and reporting news or women being out there in general. No human being deserves to go through this experience. And while all of us can argue with each other with how things should really be, remember that we all have to answer to Allah swt, and that on the Day of Judgement we (each person) will have to answer to their deeds in this world, good or bad. As muslims, we have the responsibility of being the BEST possible Muslim but we fail to become that. And this article reminds us, that we need to fix our act and start acting like Muslims and not arguing over every little thing.
Faatimah
May 18, 2011 at 2:38 PM
In the interview, she said that some of the crowd were calling her a jew, and she of course isn’t a jew. But to those ignorant losers — so what if she was a jew? that doesn’t give you a right to lay a finger on her. astaghfirullah. I can’t believe how ignorant and disgusting so called muslims can behave. i am ashamed of the muslim ummah right now.
what a brave woman. i hope Allah takes good care of those losers who did that to her.
is there a way we can personally write to lara or email/contact her?
Alistair Coakley
May 18, 2011 at 3:28 PM
Olivia, your Bravery in submitting this is Amazing! The interview with Lara is harrowing, and the tears in my eyes are still flowing- she went through a living Hell, not because of Islam, but because of some opportunistic thrill seekers, that abused her..Simple as that! There is nothing different about Right-Wing Christian Fundamentalists, that think that can impose Misery on People! ( I, like Lara used to, live inSouth Africa, where certain People thought it noble to rob People, not of their colour, of their Dignity- and couch it Biblical terms…Hewers of Wood, etc.) It is not about that the Faith movement that you subscribe to, because they all emphasise Love, but how you live you life. I have not looked at the other comments, because am sure that you have received a lot of invective, which is cruel, and unfair. Thank you for your Candour, and Lara’s Bravery. Much Love, Alistair
Marwa
May 18, 2011 at 3:46 PM
Assalam Alikum everyone,
I`m from Egypt,
I want to tell everyone that what happened to Lara CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED, NEVER !. Don`t try to justify because of similar deeds that are done to muslim women. Actually neither can be justified.
Allah will not change the condition of a the Ummah as long as we do not change our state ourselves.
“لاَ ÙŠÙغَيّÙر٠مَا بÙقَوْم٠Øَتَّى ÙŠÙغَيّÙرÙواْ مَا بÙØ£ÙŽÙ†ÙÙسÙÙ‡Ùمْ”
We`re not doing enough for the sake of the Ummah, and for our beautiful religion,
I would say sorry for what happened to Lara as i would say it to any woman who was in her position (whether a muslim or a non-muslim) because this is the right thing to do.
I actually hate it when some people say that “These are muslims, this is who they are………..etc etc” but i kinda feel that they start to say so just after we say “This is not Islam, this is not Islam”.
Do not put yourselves in a defense position, Islam has absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Abu Muhammad
May 18, 2011 at 4:36 PM
Salaam,
What Lara Logan went through is regrettable and unfortunate but the way Sister Olivia wrote this letter seems over the top to me. Some of the brothers comments might not jive with some people on this site, but essentially they are right. Muslim women have been raped by American and European troops in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan but do you see anyone condemning it in the west. Nor are we, the Muslims, putting a collective blame on Americans and Europeans for the behavior of these criminals.
Siraaj
May 18, 2011 at 6:10 PM
“Muslim women have been raped by American and European troops in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan but do you see anyone condemning it in the west.”
Yes, all the time – now what?
Abu Muhammad
May 18, 2011 at 7:06 PM
Not really and only if the situation can’t be ignored.
Siraaj
May 18, 2011 at 8:30 PM
Your response is exactly the point – even if someone did it sincerely, you’d never believe it. Victimhood 101.
Siraaj
The Truth Seeker
May 19, 2011 at 12:43 AM
I have seen this horror myself Mr.Siraj . If I try to list their stories . You would cry to death . Do you think we are nuts , to rant about muslim women .
You seriously need some reality check .
Siraaj
May 19, 2011 at 1:39 AM
Absolutely not, you’re not nuts for caring deeply about what happens against Muslims, but you are living in denial when you act as though Muslims don’t have their own problems to solve within the community.
Again, read the incident of Ba’ir Ma’oonah in the seerah, then return and comment.
Siraaj
Abu Muhammad
May 19, 2011 at 6:54 AM
Br Siraaj,
If I need to be psyco-analysed, I’ll ask advice from a proper professional. So spare me your “victimhood 101′ comments. I am fully aware that one of the reason why the Muslims are in such a state is because of the neglect of their deen. Also, I am not gonna sugarcoat how women are treated in the Muslim world. There are scores of examples, what’s happening in Bahrain right now, for example.
Islam teaches us to show kindness and gentleness to everyone irespective of who the person is as long as they are not attacking you. I’ll repeat again in case you haven’t read it: what happened to Lara Logan is very unfortunate and regretable but the people who committed it are criminals just like you will find in the U.S. after all, the highest number of rapes are committed in this country every year.
Siraaj
May 21, 2011 at 1:21 PM
Salaam alaykum Abu Muhammad,
Missed your comment in all this (it was deeply embedded), my apologies.
I agree with you that our leaving of the deen is the most critical factor – a couple of years ago myself and sister Anonymouse wrote a series together on ‘Izzah, and you’d find what I wrote mirrors what you’re saying about falling off the deen.
The question, however, is it only ‘ibaadah? What about ethics? What about accountability? What about fairness? To give an example, it’s not uncommon for good, practicing Muslims to engage in unethical behavior without even thinking about it (cheating on exams, fudging resumes, lying on car rental contracts about who is and isn’t driving, downloading pirated software, and so on).
It’s not just one aspect of the religion – how about our manners, and how about our sense of justice? As I mentioned below, certain people disagreeing with this article decided that, rather than criticizing the article, they would simply call the author a munafiq and appeaser in another forum – is this really the behavior practicing Muslims should engage in?
My wife and I both hold the view change starts with ourselves first – if we can’t accept a problem, or if every time someone brings up a problem we have, it turns into a, “yes, but…” the problem exists, but so what? I think that thought process has to be broken so that we can solve our problems.
to give you an example you might appreciate, when approaching people who don’t pray 5 times daily, they will say, “Yes, but people who do pray are such hypocrites and at least I’m nice to people and not harsh to them.” True, but that doesn’t justify the behavior, so we focus on the behavior, call it out, and work on fixing it, not dodge, deflect, and justify.
Siraaj
a muslimah
May 25, 2011 at 3:25 AM
Brother Siraaj I LOVE your explanation. THAT is actually a serious problem, the ‘yes, but’ . We truly need to focus on the behavior. It would be nice if there were classes on this type of thing… to imams as well. That is the problem. We know this is happening to other people. Lets not complain about other stuff. Lets focus on the issue at hand. Right now we are talking about Laura not about other Muslim woman. Lets focus on what happened to her.
To the other Brother: Please understand that even when they write about a post on the rapes of Muslim women certain people start complaining and say well what about the muslim men who rape. Do you understand. There is never satisfaction? This way there are never solutions So the best way is to focus on the issue at hand Allahu alim
Abdullah
May 20, 2011 at 6:32 AM
Women are raped all over the world by people from every religion. The United States does not command its soldiers to rape anyone, so stop pretending like it does. This is just Hizbi propaganda-for-votes.
Abu Muhammad
May 20, 2011 at 3:43 PM
“Women are raped all over the world by people from every religion.”
That is exactly my point.
Where did I say that the US is commanding the soldiers to do these crimes? tBUT, nor are they following the Geneva conventions. Pictures from Abu Ghraib are there for all to see. You obviously live in a fantasy world.
sadia
May 18, 2011 at 5:15 PM
“nothing has made me incline more towards goodness and justice than adherence to my faith. But, brothers and sisters, nothing has shamed and embarrassed me more than the actions I see taken by Muslims on a regular basis. — i feel this way alot of times my self and unlike you i’m not a revert!
thanks for writing — my apologies to all the victims of crimes of this nature.
Sabour Al-Kandari
May 18, 2011 at 5:41 PM
After hearing this story and reading the other articles about these issues in Muslim countries, one can’t help but wonder about the other untold stories, and how many other women had similar experiences on that day alone.
Gheerah should always override deflection, especially when it’s happening in your own back yard by your own brethren, it’s men who understand responsibility that will always feel responsible, and this isn’t to the exclusion of everything else we feel responsible over.
Just because this article can’t solve everything, doesn’t mean it doesn’t help something.
Excellent work, masha’Allah.
Farhan
May 18, 2011 at 5:57 PM
“While these actions don’t represent Islam or all Muslims, they do represent a problem that needs to be dealt with by Muslims.”
That sums it up.
I don’t know what to say about this other than that I would NEVER do something like this, and I’d never allow something like this to happen.
Iesa Galloway
May 18, 2011 at 5:58 PM
Sister Olivia jazakAllahu khairan for this excellent piece. I am not at all a fan of moral equivalence, that is a sickness that prevents progress and stifles growth.
Iesa
shams
May 18, 2011 at 6:30 PM
This is the worst that could happen to a human bieng, and this is the worst act a human bieng can do to another.
Alaa Suliman
May 18, 2011 at 7:50 PM
Jazaki Allahu khyran for taking the time to write about something so disgusting and bringing it to light.
Its a shame that some of us are NOT addressing the real issue here – which is the perverted behaviour of those men and how can we go about eliminating this problem – and jumping into “women should do this and shouldn’t do that”, “why apologize for them?”, “but what about what happened to OUR women”…etc.
Islam’s First and Foremost message is to bring goodness to humanity and to prevent harm. And as Sister Olivia said, let us stop being defensive….lets stop telling ourselves all these stories and Lets Get to Work.
WAJiD
May 18, 2011 at 8:14 PM
Salaam,
Maybe a couple of points… I’m a doctor and I regularly see people at tragic moments in their lives. Standing there in a room and telling someone that their cancer is back and has spread, watching their relatives break in tears and they stand in stunned silence – the first words usually out of my mouth are “I’m sorry…”
This is not me saying that I had anything to do with the cancer, this is not me even saying that someone else more deserving isn’t actually suffering far more… the “I’m sorry” is simply a human to human connection.
What I (and I think sister Olivia) am actually saying is “I’m sorry that you have been through such a difficult time and traumatic experience…”
When it is put like that, I hope that it makes sense and doesn’t sound so controversial.
(Oh, and by the way, debate is good people. Keep it civil, keep it logical and keep remembering that what unites us is far greater than what divides us.)
Olivia
May 18, 2011 at 8:51 PM
I find it very ironic that some people would think I submitted this piece in order to gain acceptance or pleasure or to seem “nice.” That, I think, is absolutely nonsensical. I knew when I submitted this piece that I would essentially be “throwing myself under the bus.” This isn’t a “feel-good don’t you like me now?” sort of article. I knew I would receive loads of criticism and emotional spasms from people (point proven). Those who accuse me of such a thing are merely trying one of the old rules of argumentation–if you can’t debunk what someone is saying, debunk the one who is saying it. By trying to discredit me or my intentions (which only Allah knows) you are trying to discredit what I wrote with one broad sweep. Nice try *waggles finger* That being said, the only people who would cheer me at writing such a piece would be non-Muslims. Seeing as this isn’t a blog for them, this article is quite misplaced.
Anyone who knows me knows that I raise issues about how Muslims are treated, like all the nameless people in iraq and Afghanistan or Dr. Aafia, on almost a daily basis. And what makes that even more special is that I raise these issues to non-Muslims. Check my facebook status on any given day, and you will see me posting articles about Dr. Aafia or the “Kill team” while other people are posting about the waffles they ate for breakfast. Coming from a non-Muslim background and having been a Muslim for ten years, I have exposed non-Muslims not only to Islam but to the “crimes of America” in a way that most of you cannot match. I do not seek to curry favor with anyone, but only to share what I believe is right. For that, I am no one’s friend and everyone’s. You want to know how to operate without acceptance? Take that spoon of your mom’s biryani out of your mouth and take a walk in my shoes. This article, in which I brought up Muslim problems, is like a drop of blue dye in an ocean of red, compared to what I have done on behalf of Muslims.
Regarding apologies, if I were to ever go to a Muslim country and meet the native people there, I would be the first to apologize to them for what America has done to them. That’s because I identify myself as an American–I have a responsibility to this country, thus I do what I can to make it a better place. That sense of responsibility also turns into accountability, when I see that the govt that “represents me” is killing Muslims. Wasn’t that OBL’s justification for Sept. 11? The people are responsible for the govt, thus the people are responsible for what the govt does? I don’t agree with that simplistic and convenient narrative, however I do believe that if I think my govt is wrong I have to call them out and I cannot help but feel that I owe that apology to Muslims who are being hurt and killed by American troops or bombs. I apologize not only because I am sympathetic, but because people who are associated with me are doing it, even if I am not personally to blame. I would probably say something like, “As an American, I am so sorry for what my country has done to you. I want you to know that there are others, like me, who do not support this war and feel pain knowing of your situation. If there’s anything I can do to ease that pain, please let me know.” If you want a response to “what about all the Muslims who were raped…” just take a look around this website.
Many of you on here are doing exactly what the article mentions: deflecting and excusing. It’s pathetic. Honestly, in my experience, non-muslims in this country accept their country’s wrongs far better than we do of our ummah’s. I have heard many Americans say “I am embarassed/ashamed to be an American” or “this is so wrong, I cannot believe an American did that” or “This is not what American principles are about, this is outrageous!”, etc. I’d say about 50% respond that way, while the other 50% say things like “they deserve it!” or “just bomb them all to Hell” and “look what they did to us?! remember 9/11!” So I thought I’d test the waters and see what the Muslim response would be like if I wrote an article that was flipped and, for once, pointed out some of our own issues and highlighted just how we are prone to this deflective, self-excusing behavior. And even with that red-flag in there about how we usually do that, the response on here was about the same: 50/50.
This leads me to a very interesting conclusion. This is not about Muslims or non-Muslims. This is not about democracy or shariah. This is about people who are one way and people who are another way, regardless of their faith or identity. There is one group that inclines toward justice regardless of whose side it’s on, people who are willing to admit error and strive toward self-improvement, people who are observant and reflective and solution-oriented and proactive, people who are humble enough to apologize when they believe it’s right, and people who are not willing to withhold an apology just to prove a point (he hurt me and didn’t say sorry, so why should i tell him sorry!? *sucks thumb*)
then there is the other group, who are, more or less, part of the problem. they are the thumb-suckers i just mentioned, the hostile accusers, the tit-for-tat-ers, the vexed children who won’t be fair because they’re too mad, the deflectors, the excuse-makers, the insulters, the emotional ranters, the blamers, the negative, self-righteous, well, trolls.
Finally, I know it is controversial that I apologized. I knew it would be, but I did it because that is honestly how I felt. I felt sorry that a group of Muslims stripped and raped this woman. I felt sorry that a group of Muslims could do that, in a time when they should have been thankful to Allah. I feel embarassed that I have to defend this great religion regularly because so many disgusting people defile it on a regular basis. I feel sorry that so many non-Muslims, many of whom are my loved ones, have to be bombarded with our bad behavior, signficantly decreasing the likelihood that they will actually ever know Islam for what it truly is and accept it. I also feel sorry for what America has done, I already mentioned that and for the sake of length I won’t repeat it. It is not the sorry of taking blame. It is the sorry of regret. And I personally believe that each of us is either part of solving our problems so we can reduce such regretful situations or we are part of the problem that allows them.
and if i had to guess, i’d say you could probably divide us about 50/50. good to know.
Amman Abdul Adl
May 18, 2011 at 10:47 PM
Sister Olivia,
I understand your intentions, but as a muslim we can not show love for the kuffar. Also we are forbidden to even take them as friends, being aware that our affection can cloud our judgement and take us away from Islam.
That said, how in the world can I show sympathy for them. Regardless of their circumstances, I think your clouding your judgement because of your past relationships with the kuffar. Our job is to show and outward appearance to them and inward hatred, until they accept Islam. And for the muslims, we show love to them regardless of their actions. So this might come as a shock, but whatever has happened to Laura Logan; I still have love for the perpetrators. The deserve my mercy and the kuffar do not. And if people ask how do If know if the perpetrators were only muslims, I would pose that same question to Olivia…
And brothers and sisters, i’m not trying to cause a controversy here. I’m simple tired of accepting an Islam that clearly does not exist. We have watered-down our religion to make it appeal to the kuffar. So please don’t call me sick or disgusting unless you have authentic sources to tell me otherwise.
Allah Knows Best…
Siraaj
May 18, 2011 at 11:32 PM
So the Prophet didn’t love his uncle Abu Talib?
Siraaj
Amman Abdul Adl
May 18, 2011 at 11:40 PM
Brother Siraaj,
I would think not, but instead of asking me the question why don’t you give me an article to read or some statement of a scholar about it.
You’ve done this before brother Siraaj, just posting a questions expecting some reply. I’m learning just like everyone else. So if i’m wrong then please just be straightforward and let me know…
My apologies for being defensive…
P.S. – I know you are the moderator, some comments were not posted. Why?
Siraaj
May 19, 2011 at 12:01 AM
It’s well-known that he loved his uncle greatly. Pick up any book of seerah and it becomes immediately clear. His uncle was a nonMuslim.
About comments moderation, I’m moderating on this article, but you should know that allowing many of the comments that came through was not easy as most of them were replete with attacks and poor manners.
Special exception was made because the comments basically exemplified the problem portrayed :D
Comments that were considered not directly related to the article were immediately removed regardless of manners.
Siraaj
Amman Abdul Adl
May 19, 2011 at 12:25 AM
@Sirraj
Thank you for the kind reply. I’ll look into the Sirah, and hopefully its a general rule not the exception that you had mentioned.
also, I understand the “editing” of certain post. But I think the Ummah needs to the truth about certain issues. Hopefully you and the MMatters Team could post an article about POWs and its ruling. That would be well appreciated.
Thanks again and my apologies for any trouble…
The Truth Seeker
May 19, 2011 at 12:53 AM
I am really not surprised by comments over here .
I will only reinforce the point that Amman Abdul Adl.
Most of the people who are commenting over here have not seen the true horrors of war in muslim lands .
I think it is useless to comment here any further
Yunus
May 19, 2011 at 1:28 AM
I want you all to define love.
Is the love of your favorite dish the same type of love that you have for your mother? Or is the love for your wife the same type of love for a brother in the masjid? What is the difference between the love for Allah (swt) and the love for the Prophet (saas)?
Is it all the same type? Or is it just varying degrees? Define love for me, and and apply it to the above situations.
Abdullah
May 20, 2011 at 6:36 AM
We should hate kufr but love for kuffar what we love for ourselves. So I think Olivia’s approach is good because she presents the beauty of Islam, unlike those who are severe in their understanding of Al-Wala wal-Bara.
Answered by Sheikh Salman Al-Oadah at Islam Today
Question:
What does Islam teach us about hating unbelievers? What should we feel for our non-Muslim family members?
Answer:
The Muslim is taught by his book, the Qur’ân, to hate falsehood, distorted beliefs, and deviance, and consequently, to hate the representation of falsehood and deviant beliefs at the hands of the unbelievers. He does not, however, hate the people themselves. In fact, he should wish for them every possible good and hope that they will attain guidance and be saved from the Hellfire. When one of the unbelievers attains guidance, the Muslim should be as joyous for his sake as our Prophet (peace be upon him) was when a Jewish boy converted to Islam just before he died. The Prophet (peace be upon him) left his home saying: “All praises are for Allah who saved him from the Hellfire.†The hatred one should have is for their deviance or sinful behavior, not for the people themselves. This is why a Muslim cannot be blamed for his affection towards his son, wife, and others, even if they are not Muslims. However, such affection should not cause him to neglect any part of his religion. That is why the Muslims who, on account of their wives and children, failed to emigrate to Madinah as they were commanded were rebuked for staying behind. Indeed, Allah describes our wives and children as a trial. In fact, the ones who encourage hatred are certain Western and other non-Muslim politicians and media personalities who seem to be doing everything in their power to instigate conflicts against Muslims in various parts of the world. By their practices, they seem to be trying to give the Muslims lessons in hatred and rancor. If there are some moderate and reasonable voices in the West and in places like India, they are being drowned out by the overwhelming clamor of extremism and anti-Islamic rhetoric. Admittedly, the same thing can be said for the Muslims as well. However, I must stress that the West is suffocating the moderate and temperate voices in the Muslim world who are on the correct Islamic methodology, the methodology that is the way of salvation for the Muslim nation.
Amman Abdul Adl
May 20, 2011 at 4:30 PM
“O you who believe! Take not as (your) bitaanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made clear to you the aayaat (proofs, evidence, verses), if you understand. Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures [i.e., you believe in the Tawraat and the Injeel, while they disbelieve in your Book (the Qur’aan)]. And when they meet you, they say, ‘We believe.’ But when they are alone, they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage. Say: ‘Perish in your rage. Certainly Allaah knows what is in the breasts (all the secrets).’ If a good befalls you, it grieves them, but some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it…†[Aal ‘Imran 3:118-120].
Brother, you’re telling me that Allah (SWT) is telling you hate them ONLY because of their disbelief?
Allah Knows Best
Muddassir
May 19, 2011 at 12:19 AM
Lol if you as an american and a Muslim starts to apologize for all the evil acts done by your fellow americans and muslims, then you have a lot of apologizing to do!
Olivia
May 18, 2011 at 9:06 PM
“The west never punished or executed any one of their people against this crime … did they ??Nobody from the west apologized for them . Then why do you expect muslims to show soft side . Don’t you think its a double standard .”
I do have a double standard for Muslims, because we follow Allah’s Divine guidance and are a witness over mankind. As Muslims, we shouldn’t do what we do based on what somebody else does or doesn’t do. We do what we do based on our principles of the Qur’an and Sunnah. I expect Muslims to be better than everyone else. No other person is the barometer of whether or not I apologize or offer my condolences.
This comment is exactly what I am talking about. Currently, we only do what we do, based on non-Muslims, whether it is our over-eagerness to appease them or our overzealousness in despising them. We revolve ourselves around our relationship with them, rather than the Quran and Sunnah. It’s time to just do the right thing, regardless of the rest of the world.
The Truth Seeker
May 19, 2011 at 1:01 AM
Oh just great Ms.Olivia , just great .
I really wanted to give you a very serious replay with hard hitting evidences but whats , the point . My comments will get moderated and removed any way . I think Muslim matters cannot accept reverse arguments , huh ?
I am done talking here . You , people live in west . Have, you ever once went over to Iraq , Afghanistan , Kashmir or Palestine . Have you seen the what is happening to people over there . Ms.Lara logan should be thankful to God that she made it alive . Most of the women don’t even make that far .
Ignorance at its peak .
Abdullah
May 20, 2011 at 6:39 AM
Olivia is correct and you have responded with poor manners. Do us a favor and do not speak here until you correct your manners. Barak Allah feek.
Aspirer
May 18, 2011 at 9:32 PM
Salaam Alaikum,
It is likely that the harassment in Egypt is a result of Islamic standards of marriage preparation being violated and substituted with Western norms. To wit;
1) in Egypt, it costs an obscene amount of money to get married due to absurd requirements
2) in Egypt, unemployment is high and salaries are low, especially among young men.
The two above may couple to form:
3) A pervasive culture of sexual harassment, a particular sort that affects sisters who are covered more possibly (I say possibly because this part is speculation and therefore not authoritative) because the young men view Islam as a tradition and see it as similar or the same to the culture that prevents them from getting married to have a halal outlet.
Over time, it is possible that they build up a resentment towards covered women, as they are the foremost representation of the tradition; to bring them ‘down’ to another level, they engage in harassment and perverted actions.
This is not to excuse the perpetrators of this act, forbidden and vile as it was; but merely to point out the social conditions that lead to the prevalence of such behavior, and the solution, which is, as it ever is for whatsoever problems may arise, to be found in the Glorious Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (sallalahu alayhi was-salaam); wherein many encouragements towards early marriage to safeguard the gaze and the religion are found, and excessive mahr discouraged.
Implementation of a state fund for earlier marriages and a revitalization of the economy of Egypt (however that may be accomplished, I’m certainly no economist) would certainly (inshallah) have a positive effect on this unfortunate circumstance that the sisters of Egypt find themselves in. It certainly would be ironic if this fund were drawn from the soon-to-be-recovered funds of a particular deposed ruler (hint, hint) whose policies encouraged this situation in the first place!
So continue, brothers and sisters, to call yourselves, and by proxy those around you, to Islam, and implementing its glory in your life and following it wholeheartedly; the ripple effect applies, and perhaps the Ummah can self-reform to some extent before we are forced into more strange and terrible circumstances.
RCHOUDH
May 19, 2011 at 3:21 PM
Salaam,
Lovely letter Sister Olivia you’re right about us looking inwards. I think by looking at ourselves first we can say that the reason why such a horrific action occurred is because of lack of completely following Islam as an Ummah.
Like Aspirer I think it helps to look at the social/economic/political conditions that led to LL’s sexual assault and to the disturbingly increasing trend of assault towards women in general in Egypt (including hijabis/niqabis).
Besides the oppressive economic conditions (inflation, unemployment, expensive dowries) and the inability to hold the government accountable under Mubarak, you had young Egyptian Muslim men acting out by taking out their frustrations upon weaker members of society (in this case women). I remember reading about how during British rule in India Indian men, both Muslim and non Muslim, became domineering and oppressive at home towards their families because they had no say in dominating the social/political discourse in their society due to colonialism. I would say the same situation applies here in Egypt’s case.
Mubarak was definitely for pushing “liberal, secular” values onto Egyptian society that’s why he legalized things that are clearly haraam (like alcohol, mixed beaches, semi-nudity, clubs) in society. Egyptian media has also been known to push “liberal secular values” and to instill disrespectful and unIslamic attitudes towards women. See this post written by a sister on another site about these distasteful sexist ads that came out in Egypt a few years ago advertising “halal beer”: http://muslimahmediawatch.org/2008/11/a-girls-personality-is-the-last-thing-you-notice/
So on the one hand you have Egyptian men living under oppressive political/economic conditions under a Western puppet ruler, and being told to uphold social/religious values all the while being fed contradictory “liberal secular” values through the media and educational system. All the assaults and other such crimes is the result of these conditions. Unfortunately the remnants of this vile behavior towards women will take time to change (which explains how this behavior has still manifested itself onto LL after Mubarak’s ouster). The solution therefore is to not adopt democracy (which will just extend the life of the “secular, liberal” values already implemented under Mubarak) but Islam wholeheartedly, its solutions to all problems in life be they political, economic, or social.
Muhib
May 18, 2011 at 10:31 PM
I pray for a truly severe punishment for the inhumans responsible for assaulting Ms. Lara. Caution to all parents: raise you sons well so they learn to truly respect ALL women.
syed
May 18, 2011 at 11:34 PM
Lara, I feel very sorry for you. I have tears in my eyes.
I sincerely apologize to you and your family. And as being muslin, let me call you ‘ ukhtee ‘ which simply means ‘my sister’
Ashamed
May 18, 2011 at 11:52 PM
How ashamed and saddened I am to see this article, well-meaning though it may be.
“And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another.”
“for us are our actions and for you are yours”
The muslim in his discourse is fair, honourable, and just. And he is dignified. This article unfortunately doesn’t meet that. No muslim, let alone the ‘ummah’ should apologise for the crimes of others (muslim or not). We seek justice, condemn where needed but condemn fairly and consistently. If we feel responsible to apologise to one victim for crimes committed by some, why not for other victims for crimes committed by others? If you are American or European, please be fair and also write a personal apology to the literally hundreds of thousands who are victims of the deeds of your fellow country men. Do we even find any Americans/Europeans doing that? No, and rightly so because you do not owe anybody any rights here. The rights are owed purely by the perpetrators. What you can do is seek justice and speak the truth. It is one thing to raise awareness of problems in our community and deal with it, and it is something else to belittle ourselves in this way of inadvertently taking responsibility for the crimes of others. Take one glance at the seerah and I dare you to find the prophet sws ever apologising for the crimes committed by any other human being. You can free/distance yourself from the crime committed in your name and even offer sympathies to the victim (and not selectively, but to all victims), but that is very different to begging for forgiveness for something you were not responsible for in the first place and was not even done in your name.
Muslims do no favours to their image by humiliating themselves in this way and buying into the narrative forced upon them by their opponents that they are responsible for the crimes of every other of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. Please do not contribute to your own humiliation.
Siraaj
May 19, 2011 at 12:04 AM
Salaam alaykum,
Please see the story of the well of Ba’ir Ma’oonah in the seerah in the madinan period, and tell me your thoughts on the Prophet’s decision to pay the diyah.
Siraaj
Ashamed
May 19, 2011 at 12:37 PM
Seeking and delivering justice from the waliyyul amr/muslim leader is different as said already, and by all means, we must help bring people to justice and help people obtain their rights. Please explain how this incident from the seerah is the same as apologising for the crimes of someone else and taking responsibility for it while you are not responsible for them and nor were their actions done in your name.
Ashamed
May 19, 2011 at 10:46 PM
Seeking and delivering justice from the waliyyul amr/muslim leader is different as said already, and by all means, we must help bring people to justice and help people obtain their rights. But please explain how this incident from the seerah is the same as apologising for the crimes of someone else and taking responsibility for it while you are not responsible for them and nor were their actions done in your name.
Abdullah
May 20, 2011 at 6:42 AM
So many negative nancies on this thread… What an Iman-kill! =/
simple
May 21, 2011 at 9:24 AM
So, you iman is killed by reading a blog with some comments? Guess, its time to think how and why we have ‘iman’ if just reading people’s comments can be an ‘iman kill’. LOL
Truth Seeker
May 21, 2011 at 10:03 AM
Haha right simple
Gbolahan
May 19, 2011 at 12:02 AM
Assalam Aleaykum,
I feel for Laura Logan and I do think we as Muslims need to deal with issues like these though I remember vividly the feelings on this site during the uprising in Egypt. I remember all the articles celebrating the Egyptian revolution especially that of YQ and I felt sad then the same way I am feeling now. How can we celebrate a mob, what did we expect from a mob, Laura Logan spoke out but do we know the number of Muslim women who also got this type of treatment. Certainly now I am more empowered to say that there cant be any barakah in a mob-styled revolution.
Sumaya Um Sara
May 19, 2011 at 12:19 AM
I thank the author greatly for this post. I couldn’t agree more. I am sickened by what Lara Logan experienced. It is so easy for Muslims to make excuses on account of “a group of Muslims doesn’t speak for all Muslims or Islam” But I’m sick of this mentality. We do need to address these issues as a global community. Rape, groping women on the streets, child molestation, modern day slavery against “domestics”. Sorry if it’s not convenient for some to read this article, but if we don’t address these issues they will never lessen. Alhamdulilah that she made it home safe to her daughters and husband. I pray that she finds peace and the wounds of her attack ease with time.
… and to the “men” who wrote that it was her fault as women should stay at home, blah blah blah, need to take a serious re-look at their deen and remember that they will be held accountable on youm al-qiyama even for any misinformation they spread. It is not enough to put “Allaho Alim” at the end of a post, yes God is the all-Knower but he has sent down some of his knowledge and intellect on the human race FOR A REASON. This behavior is inexcusable and those making excuses for it are just as guilty.
By the way, one man wrote that women should not leave except out of necessity (well I believe he used the wrong grammatical form there) but regardless, I ask you this: WHAT CONSTITUTES NECESSITY??? If fighting for human rights, helping to end a murderous and corrupt regime, isn’t necessity, then what is???
I also disagree with letting men take care of politics. Look how much they’ve screwed up the world thus far… Some men severely lack the gene of compassion which was bestowed to women when they become mothers.
And again, I repeat, ALHAMDULILAH ALLAHO AKBAR LA ILLAHA ILLA ALLAH, God blessed me with a zawj sali7 who is on the right path, the true Sunnah, and uses his common sense, compassion, reason and intellect. He is a true mu’min and reading some comments have made me appreciate him so much. Alhamdulilahi rabbil 3lameen.
Abu Ibrahim
May 19, 2011 at 3:59 PM
Asalamu alakum,
Everyone is talking about what is says in the Quran and Sunnah, yet I have hardly seen any posts with any reference to the Quran or Sunnah.
I feel like a lot of people are just posting comments with a lot of emotion, especially the sisters (who are created emotional, alhamdullah :) ).
1. Before we respond, we should cool down and respond with good words as Allah told Musa in Surah Taha when he was to speak to Pharoh, who was the worst of the worst
“And speak unto him a gentle word, that peradventure he may heed or fear.” – (20:44)
So, if Allah commanded Mosa to speak to Pharoah with gentle words, we should be gentle with everyone, especially other Muslims. So, no need to insult each other.
2. Regarding your comment
“WHAT CONSTITUTES NECESSITY??? If fighting for human rights, helping to end a murderous and corrupt regime, isn’t necessity, then what is???”
There are many hadith which talk about how we should deal with unjust rulers and regime. Such as
“There will appear after me rulers, they will not guide by my guidance, and they will not establish my Sunnah; there will be amongst them men whose hearts will be hearts of devils in the bodies of men!” He was then asked: “How should I behave, oh Messenger of Allaah, if I reach that time?” He replied: “Hear and obey the Ameer (ruler), even he beats your back, and [illegally] takes your wealth – Hear and obey!”
(Saheeh Muslim – Book of Rulership)
If that doesn’t describe some of these leaders I don’t know what does.
And I know there are hadith saying that if we see unjustice we should change it with our hand etc. What I am saying is that we can’t say things without looking at all the evidences. Also, I personally believe this does not involve most of us so we shouldn’t get involved. Just like many of the sahabas did not get involved during the fithna.
We tend to let our emotions get the best of us. have patience.
3. After what happened to Lara I thought about this verse:
Verily! Allâh will not change the good condition of a people as long as they do not change their state of goodness themselves (by committing sins and by being ungrateful and disobedient to Allâh). But when Allâh wills a people’s punishment, there can be no turning back of it, and they will find besides Him no protector. (13:11)
SubhanAllah we thought that getting rid of Mubarik will change the state of the people?!?!?! Often we blame the rulers for everything, but who is to blame here?
4. Often we make strong statements and do not look to see what Allah and his messenger said about a certain subject. We take our own intellect and sometimes our intellect is wrong according to what Allah and his messenger have said.
“And again, I repeat, ALHAMDULILAH ALLAHO AKBAR LA ILLAHA ILLA ALLAH, God blessed me with a zawj sali7 who is on the right path, the true Sunnah, and uses his common sense, compassion, reason and intellect.”
Are you saying others here are not on the right path? Again I would advise you not to make strong statements when you are in an emotional state.
wasalam
Sumaya Um Sara
May 20, 2011 at 1:18 AM
Haha I agree with you women are created emotional and when I wrote my comment, I was filled with emotions after watching the video and seeing some comments. :-(
I agree with most of what you wrote and I felt it earlier today when I went back to re-read my comment and felt embarrassed. :-( I tried to delete my comment but I couldn’t figure out how… sorry I am new to Muslim Matters.
May Allah forgive me and give me the wisdom to hold my tongue and not speak until I am clear from emotion.
Abdullah
May 20, 2011 at 6:44 AM
You are correct that our Ummah needs to learn patience with the rulers. The Sunnah is clear on this issue, but try telling that to all the arm-chair takfirists in Hizbu Tahrir.
muslim
May 20, 2011 at 8:29 AM
Takfir is not the job of Hizb but certain groups which claim to have been ‘guided’. Hizb has people from all aspects of all schools of thoughts and it is a political organization and not a fiqh one to takfir groups of the ummah. It rather says, we can all unite under Islam as we did for 1300 years under Islamic rule under one khalifah until the nation states were formed under secularism 1900s onwards. Can you quote where they gave any ‘takfir’ and against whom?
Debugaboo
May 19, 2011 at 2:05 AM
We sit here listening to this interview and have different feelings. However, all I can think about is how Lara felt. there is no way I can ever understand what she or any other women who have been sexually assaulted must go through trying to move on with their lives. We as Muslims need to get over our fear of being outcasts and bring resolution to these horrendous acts. I am angry at how much we have to see before we even dare to speak up. The good from evil is very clear here and we really need to stop hiding behind the excuse of being oppressed and actually help those who have been!
Saad
May 19, 2011 at 2:57 AM
Salam all,
My sincerest condolences to sister Logan. What that mob did to her was completely wrong and against islam and those men should be put to justice on earth or else they will reap what they sow on the day of judgement. Thank you sister Olivia for a sincere meaningful article.
Salam
AnonyMouse
May 19, 2011 at 5:04 AM
To be brutally honest, while I get what Olivia’s trying to get across, I think that there many other ways that we are trying to tackle our own problems as a Muslim community. Masha’Allah there are plenty of articles on MM that touch on “taboo” social issues.
I feel that this post was not needed.
Not because I think we shouldn’t care about what happened to Lara Logan, or because nonMuslims (Americans in particular, I should say) are committing atrocities against Muslims right, left, and center everyday, or that kuffaar aren’t worth caring about… but because this post is bringing up so much anger and misplaced statements, for something that doesn’t really relate to these points in the first place.
While I put myself at the risk of sounding callous and cold, I have to say that if we’re going to apologize for the attack on Lara Logan, then does that mean we have to apologize for every single rape in the Muslim world? I think not. We have no need to apologize; we have a need to ACT.
YES we have problems in the Muslim community/ Muslim world; YES we need to be aware of them; and YES we need to actively combat them!
But singling out something that happened to a nonMuslim, Western woman over all the other Muslim women out there who have experienced the same, and worse, simply contributes (in my mind) that what happens to a nonMuslim or a Westerner, by Muslims, is considered “worse” than what happens to Muslims by Muslims and nonMuslims alike.
What happened to Lara Logan was sickening. But so is what is happening to Muslims in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kashmir, and elsewhere. For that matter, the same things happen here in our Muslim communities in the West.
While Lara’s case shouldn’t be ignored, neither should it be raised and elevated as a point about which we must apologize. Rather, it should be an example amongst many others, equally horrific, and instead of apologizing, it should rather be a reminder and rallying call to us as Muslims to evaluate ourselves and our behaviour, and how we can tackle the many, many problems that we have in the Muslim Ummah.
Amad
May 19, 2011 at 9:24 AM
Didn’t expect the glib statement from you. Write about all these incidents, who’s stopping you?
Do you understand the impact this one assault is having on opinions about Muslims? Do you follow the news on these issues? Do you see how this incident is being used to again characterize Arabs and Muslims? Not all rapes are created equal. Not all attempted rapes are created equal. Consider the case of the Kahn assault. Should no one talk about it because it is just one assault and those assaults happen every day in every country? What do you think?
Seriously, just sometimes keep the ummah emotions aside, and think in a cool and calm way. Not all issues need to be conflated. Not all crimes are equal in the bigger picture, even if the crime themselves are literally the same. Give due respect to the amplification of an issue and the need to de-amplify.
Hala
May 19, 2011 at 9:56 AM
x2
By that logic, we really can’t discuss ANY current event because someone in the world will always be going through the same trial or worse.
Why do we Muslims do that? I can’t understand it.
Amad
May 19, 2011 at 10:27 AM
Exactly. The excuse of “it happens elsewhere†is one of the laziest and most-demotivating line common among the Muslims. Because not only will we not do anything about the specific issue, because “it happens elsewhereâ€, but we won’t do anything about the “elsewhere†either.
AnonyMouse
May 19, 2011 at 11:06 AM
Didn’t expect the snide tone from you either, I must say…
And indeed, insha’Allah I do hope to start writing about these things. Time restraints are my excuse at the moment.
Of course I do. And that’s exactly why we need to show that there is no need for us, as Muslims, to apologize for actions that go against our religion in the first place. We condemn, yes, but apologize? For what? It’s like apologizing for terrorism. We don’t apologize, we condemn!
Maybe I’m quibbling over semantics here, but the emotional connotations of the idea of an “apology” is what gets to me.
Again, I stand by my final statement:
While Lara’s case shouldn’t be ignored, neither should it be raised and elevated as a point about which we must apologize. Rather, it should be an example amongst many others, equally horrific, and instead of apologizing, it should rather be a reminder and rallying call to us as Muslims to evaluate ourselves and our behaviour, and how we can tackle the many, many problems that we have in the Muslim Ummah.
Amad
May 19, 2011 at 11:23 AM
it wasn’t snide, it was in surprise coming from someone as bright as you. Pls excuse me but I don’t buy the time-constraints excuse. All of us are really busy, and we find time to complain and argue endlessly and when it comes to doing the necessary due, its time excuses again.
Your final statement doesn’t go far enough, because it makes it about “us”. Only us. What about the victim here? Why is your concern about rallying Muslims? Why is that mutually exclusive to apologizing? I keep hearing the same thing, “what happened to Lara is wrong” and then the inevitable “BUT” and then the same whining “it happens to us all the time too”. What if we stop and the first line and focus on that all the way?
Apologies have a special meaning and place in the American psyche — thats where most of our audience is…
I think part of the issue for a lot of people who are here raising the “ummah issues” is that they spend a LOT of time in forums and blogs that are echo-chambers of whining and criticism. It raises the blood-pressure so much that all they see in every issue is Aafia, Afghanistan or Iraq. And you know what, I have written about these issues more than anyone else here. There is no bigger injustice on any woman in the world than being imparted on Dr. Aafia, may Allah release her and protect her. But I know how to separate them in my mind and in my writings, and to be just to the extent possible, one issue at a time.
AnonyMouse
May 19, 2011 at 11:20 AM
Well… the ironic thing is that the Lara Logan incident did happen “elsewhere.” She wasn’t sexually attacked by Muslim men in America. She was attacked by men in Egypt (most likely Mubarak goons, whom I’m pretty sure none of us have any liking for).
To somehow link the religion of her attackers to the attack – and we are doing so when we say “sorry that my fellow Muslim attacked you” – especially in a country where the majority of the population will identity themselves (or are identified) as Muslim, even if they aren’t religious at all… it doesn’t help anyone at all.
On one hand, we don’t know who the attackers were/are, or if they’re even Muslim. The only reason that the word “Muslim” comes into play in the first place is because again, Egypt is a Muslim-majority country and it will automatically be assumed that her attackers are “Muslim” (and here I would refer to it as being a culture-type identity, rather than a truly religious one).
To blame Lara’s attack on Muslims is like blaming a Caucasian American rapist on Christians (because after all, America is considered to be a Judeo-Christian society and white people are more likely to be considered Christian unless otherwise specified).
The real problem here is not that Lara was attacked by Muslims and we have to therefore apologize for it.
The real problem is that Lara was attacked by members of a Muslim society, and the fact that it happened goes to show that there are problems with that Muslim society. The need here is for that society to be aware of those problems and actively try to combat them.
On that, I believe, we are all agreed.
DG
May 19, 2011 at 9:27 PM
No one has an issue with condemning injustice and seeking justice for people and even showing sympathy for the victims of injustice, regardless of their faith. What everyone does have an issue with is the total and utter blunder of apologizing for the crimes of another, when their actions were not committed on your behalf or in your name, but were crimes like many other crimes. Therefore, what an apology does here is it accepts the Islamaphobic argument and demand that Muslims must take responsibility for the deeds of every other Muslim in the world. This is an unislamic and totally unjust concept. It will hurt for some to hear me say this, but giving into this – as this article has done – is defeatist.
Let us judge matters by our Islamic values and principles. Speak the truth, hate the evil and condemn it, work to secure people’s rights within your capacity, offer your sympathy to the victims, and be consistent in all of this. The concept of apologizing and taking responsibility for the crimes of others is alien to our deen and has the harmful effects already mentioned above (hence the backlash from readers). Take the examples of the prophets (peace be upon them). They freed themselves from the deeds of their people, but they did not ever take responsibility for the crimes of the criminals.
In other words, had Sr Olivia simply omitted the apology and all the baggage it comes with, there would have been less exception to her article. But even then, Muslims should be aware by now that trying to affect public opinion (as implied from br Amad’s statement above) in Muslims’ favor by constant apologies is a tried and tested and failed tactic (and I feel the need to ‘amplify’ this story by singling it out was partly for this purpose). I personally respect loonwatch.com’s approach that actively challenged to influencing public opinion by offering an alternative and more accurate view that shatters the Islamphobic opinion-shaping powers out there with hard facts; that this problem of sexual harrassment is widespread everywhere, and is very widespread in the West as well, and cannot be used as a shoe to beat Muslims with again. Much of public opinion as a result of the Logan story was skewed in the direction of thinking that Muslims have an inherent and specific problem with sexual harassment. Loonwatch’s response actively challenged that while Sr Olivia (and I truly mean no disrespect to her) unknowingly contributed to that skewed perception.
Ideally what would have been more fair was to have a discussion on sexual harrasment amongst Muslims (as Hena Zuberi’s article did a few weeks ago) and other social ills and taboos (as MM does mashallah), and also simultaneously put up a challenge to skewed public opinion with hard facts and analyses like loonwatch’s, not emotion and (unjustified) apologies that go little way in altering public opinion positively. That would have dealt with this issue in a very fair manner, instead of mixing it all up.
DG
May 19, 2011 at 9:28 PM
[please delete my first comment, not the one above.]
Abdullah
May 20, 2011 at 6:50 AM
Everyone wants to blame kuffar for our backwardness when it is obvious the problem is within ourselves as individuals and as a community. Allah says,
“Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves.” (13:11)
So we want to change our political situation without going through the difficult process of reforming what is wrong in our communities.
Honestly, this whole blame-the-kuffar discourse was invented by the Ikhwanu Muslimeen and Ayatollah Khomeini and other Islamist politicians to scapegoat “the West” for their own failures. Perhaps they forgot the Hadith Qudsi, “Whoever sees good, let him praise Allah. And whoever sees evil, let him blame no one but himself.”
Maajid
May 19, 2011 at 5:56 PM
AnonyMouse, Salam,
I agree with your comment that it is time to ‘ACT’ and not just stop at ranting about issues and apologizing, because if we really apologize for every rape in Muslim lands then our time 24/7 is not enough to apologize, not even considering the number of secret jails run by western backed tyrants used for torturing and raping Muslim men women and children whose screams do not even come out of the prisons and when they come out we see the west cold and unrelenting as in the case of our beloved sister Dr. Aafia Siddiqui, may Allah accept her Sabr and grant her the highest Jannah and His pleasure and make for us more Muslimah for this Ummah patient and brave like her.
Now, to ACT my fellow Muslim, what is the solution we need to hasten towards and call the world towards and what is the system which came to eliminate and erase such social problems and crimes against women and men. What laws and social system did Allah our Creator prescribe for us as Muslims, what reminder do we need to give to this Ummah other than remind them about morals alone? Along with morals did Allah SWT command us certain limits in our laws and our social systems?
DG
May 19, 2011 at 9:11 PM
Well said. No one has an issue with condemning injustice and seeking justice for people and even showing sympathy for the victims of injustice, regardless of their faith. What everyone does have an issue with the is the totally and utter blunder of apologizing for the crimes of another, when their actions were not committed on your behalf or in your name, but were crimes like many other crimes. Therefore, what an apology does here is it accepts the Islamaphobic argument and demand that Muslims must take responsibility for the deeds of every other Muslim in the world. This is an unislamic and totally unjust concept. It will hurt for some to hear me say this, but giving into this – as this article has done – is defeatist.
Let us judge matters by our Islamic values and principles. Speak the truth, hate the evil and condemn it, work to secure people’s rights within your capacity, offer your sympathy to the victims, and be consistent in all of this. The concept of apologizing and taking responsibility for the crimes of others is alien to our deen and has the harmful effects already mentioned above (hence the backlash from readers). Take the examples of the prophets (peace be upon them). They freed themselves from the deeds of their people, but they did not ever take responsibility for the crimes of the criminals.
In other words, had Sr Olivia simply omitted the apology and all the baggage it comes with, there would have been less exception to her article. But even then, Muslims should be aware by now that trying to affect public opinion (as implied from br Amad’s statement below) in Muslims’ favor by constant apologies is a tried and tested and failed tactic. I personally respect loonwatch.com’s approach that actively challenged public opinion by offering an alternative and more accurate view that shatters the Islamphobic opinion with hard facts; that this problem of sexual harrassment is widespread everywhere, and is very widespread in the West as well, and cannot be used as a shoe to beat Muslims with again. Public opinion as a result of this the Logan story was skewed in the direction of thinking that Muslims have an inherent and specific problem with sexual harassment. Loonwatch’s response actively challenged that while Sr Olivia (and I truly mean no disrespect to her) unknowingly contributed to that skewed perception.
Abu Muhammad
May 19, 2011 at 9:38 PM
My sentiments exactly.
Abd al-'Azeez
May 19, 2011 at 8:32 AM
May the Lord of the angels curse those who took part in this disgusting and cowardly attack on an innocent sister in humanity. Instead of sharing our beautiful religion, they shared only their inner animalistic disgrace. Justice will be done on the Day of Judgement.
Amad
May 19, 2011 at 9:31 AM
Ameen
Sidiq
May 19, 2011 at 4:40 PM
Cursing, really?
Khadeeja
May 19, 2011 at 10:57 PM
May Allah guide them and teach them how to respect women…
Curse is too harsh. We should wish for the best and if they do not change and ask for forgiveness then Allah will deal them.
a muslimah
May 25, 2011 at 3:37 AM
umm why is it too harsh? What they did is harsh so what they deserve is harsh
Amman Abdul Adl
May 19, 2011 at 7:54 PM
“O you who believe! If there are those among you who should turn away from their religion then Allah will bring forth a people whom He loves and who love Him, and they are humble to the believers and powerful and harsh towards the unbelievers. They struggle on the path of Allah and they fear not the censure of any censure. This is the super abundance of Allah that He grants to whom He wills, and Allah is all encompassing, all knowing.” (5:54)
How could you curse them? You should have pity for them and pray for their forgiveness. I say, May Allah Have Mercy On Those Men. The Prophet (S) never cursed at another muslim, regardless of what was done. If a woman who committed adultery could still be prayed over the Prophet (S) because she constantly asked for forgiveness then the same could be applied to the perpetrators.
Allah Knows Best…
Yunus
May 20, 2011 at 11:26 PM
Brother you have yet to define what you mean by love in your above comment.
madam
May 19, 2011 at 9:01 AM
ya allah,
has the state of islamic intelligentsia sunk so low? where in order to be “right”, you say things and approve of things that pleases your own ears?
Islamic ruling is pretty clear. You can’t guarantee your safety don’t go.
It’s prevention, self regulation and management.
Prevention..
You can’t guarantee safety.. your safety comes first. Don’t go.
Self Regulation…
If you are the men in the mob.. you should have controlled your carnal desires.. now just wait for Ya Allah, the Punisher to serve you your punishment in Akhirah….
Management..
If you have to go to the mob.. bring security.. which Lara Logan did… the only thing she miscalculated was the level of indecency that some of our Muslim brothers would degrade themselves to..
To say that the prophet’s wives remained cooped up all their lives in their apartments is complete nonsense.
The prophets wives traveled in groups. In everything that we do, Islamically.. there’s only a certain degree of protective measures that anyone can undertake.. the rest you can and have to rely on Allah, and there’s such a thing that keeps our bond as a human society together.. trust and love of Allah.
When one breaks a trust, the person who transgresses is the sinner. That’s it. He or she is accountable in the court of justice. The thing about our Muslim societies.. the justice system is run by complete idiots.
And then the other set of idiots are the ones who don’t understand the corruption and idiocy that they are supporting but just lap it up.. simply because they don’t think, and don’t know what they are talking about.
I think what Olivia is irritated about is the culture of being completely blase about the act of sexual harrassment and assault against women. It is a sin that is for some strange and idiotic reason not taken too seriously by Muslim communities.
For too long our patriarchal systems have put it in Muslims heads that women just have to deal with it. For you are women. And men.. you may get away with it, for this is your nature. The strange thing about sexual harassment laws and the way it is pratised in Modern Muslim societies.. is that the deterrent for women to be an active and productive member of society is much more stronger than the deterrent against errant men who think they can get away with disgusting perverted behaviour.
Isn’t this completely against Islamic teaching?
amina
May 19, 2011 at 9:07 AM
assalamu alaikkum to all
People who has given negative comments , do you know how it is to be sexually abused, stripped of in the public ?. Only a women who has been raped or abused can relate to Ms. Logan. So guys please hold your comments to yourself. One who says women to be in home, forgets that Islam says men to lower their gaze even before it talks about hijab for women. Any man who lays his hand on a woman unlawfully is the most cruel and not worthy of mentioning him as a human. They for me are animals and not humans unless they ask Allah’s forgiveness for their sin. How can these men go back to their mothers, sisters , daughters and wives and live with them. How can they hold their own baby daughters in their hand?.
Also, the lesson i have learned so far in my life , do not take the blame on yourself unless otherwise you did it. Do not apologize for what you have not done. But Sr. Olivia i think (thats what i could understand from the article) apologizes because she is a muslim and the cruel monsters who did this horrific act call themselves as muslims (are they muslims really?).
I pray to Allah,subhnata’ala shows Ms,Lara Logan the real islam and not he islam potrayed by these criminals and guide her to the right path. Ameen.
Maajid
May 19, 2011 at 10:05 AM
Salam Alaikum everyone,
Alhamdulillah, it is nice to see MM is not fully censoring the comments which do not agree with its methodology although some of my comments discussing the solution to such a problem and its root causes and the explanation of how Islamic system came to eliminate these crimes from society is still ‘awaiting moderation’, I am still trying to get some thoughts out there for concerned Muslims to think about inshAllah.
A platform like MM is looked upon by the Muslims in the west to show them direction and guidance towards the right path, I did not expect MM to publish articles which stop at the symptom and problem itself and discourage discussion about Islamic solutions.
We are Muslims, why not we limit our opinions and perspectives to Quran and Sunnah and not begin tweaking our deen ourselves? A woman was degraded and assaulted in a Muslim land, no matter who she was, it is a crime and nothing can justify it because Islam does not allow it even in the time of war to enemies. So, no Muslim can justify it based on any evidence from Quran and Sunnah.
But, after we apologize, now what? Do we have a bigger purpose as Muslims in the west? Do we see that western system of capitalism, secularism and democracy as giving the solutions looking at their own track record? Now, as Muslims do we even have permission to adopt a system other than Islam as our system of life / deen? And for those who are putting Islam to trial here, how many of you really think that Egypt and those tyrants out there installed and supported by the western governments really implement Islamic law there? Saudi too for that matter, really? The currency is in riba, the laws are a mixture of Islam and secular, the ruler is either a dictator, king or a tyrant. The social system is a mixture of Islam and secular, the economic laws are capitalism and the judiciary is a mixture of Islam, secular and personal opinions of the king or tyrants and the oppression against Muslim activists for Islam is unprecedented. For those who are taking Islam to the trial here, do you really think Islam can be responsible when Islam is not even adopted as the system? Or do you mean Islam is just a set of morals without anything surrounding them, the education system, the social system, the economic system the independent judiciary and the Islamic criminal laws which all together mold the society into the gem of the world as witnessed in the past centuries of Islamic implementation.
So, now will we stop at just apologizing or will we discuss the solutions intellectually and begin calling our own lands as well as the western people towards the just and balanced system of Islam as a ‘deen’ and not just a set of morals like christianity or judaism buddhism or hinduism etc etc. Allah has asked us to come into Islam ‘Kaaffah’ completely, not into morals of Islam while our social system is secularism and our laws are from france or our economic laws are from capitalism, is this the reason Allah SWT gave us the entire Islam as a deen and complete system addressing every aspect of human existence?
Now, would MM begin writing articles inviting the Muslim lands to implement the Islamic system and come back to the Islamic Shariah and will MM begin activism towards Islamic revival and help in the spread of awareness about the complete system of Islam. Now since the western media backed these uprisings (to make the change controlled and convenient to the western agenda) we all began talking about these lands, will now we take initiative and begin talking of a real revolution (a real change to Islamic system) and not just change in faces and names of tyrants or dictators?
I will be longing to see MM publish articles inviting the Muslims to embrace Islam as their ideology in all aspects of life and help those nonviolent and intellectual groups working out there to implement the Islamic system as our system and get rid of tyranny and unite this Ummah into one Ummah under one Imam as prescribed by the Quran & Sunnnah of prophet Mohammed SAWS with the justice and social system of Islam which works at the roots to eliminate this evil acts from the society.
No woman shall ever be harmed so brutally and no criminal should go free after harming any woman ever again in Muslim lands inshAllah. Oh MM writers and management, work to invite the ummah to Islam in its entirety and take this message to the Ummah and hasten the revival towards the Islamic revolution with real change to Islamic system under the Shariah.
ادْع٠إÙلَىٰ سَبÙيل٠رَبّÙÙƒÙŽ بÙالْØÙكْمَة٠وَالْمَوْعÙظَة٠الْØَسَنَة٠ۖ وَجَادÙلْهÙمْ بÙالَّتÙÙŠ Ù‡ÙÙŠÙŽ Ø£ÙŽØْسَن٠ۚ Ø¥Ùنَّ رَبَّكَ Ù‡ÙÙˆÙŽ أَعْلَم٠بÙمَنْ ضَلَّ عَنْ سَبÙيلÙÙ‡Ù Û– ÙˆÙŽÙ‡ÙÙˆÙŽ أَعْلَم٠بÙالْمÙهْتَدÙينَ
“Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.” Noble Qur’ân 16:125
وَلْتَكÙنْ Ù…ÙنْكÙمْ Ø£Ùمَّةٌ يَدْعÙونَ Ø¥ÙÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ الْخَيْر٠وَيَأْمÙرÙونَ بÙالْمَعْرÙÙˆÙ٠وَيَنْهَوْنَ عَن٠الْمÙنْكَر٠ۚ ÙˆÙŽØ£ÙولَٰئÙÙƒÙŽ Ù‡Ùم٠الْمÙÙْلÙØÙونَ
“Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity (bliss)” Noble Qur’ân 3:104
Amad
May 19, 2011 at 10:30 AM
Some of your comments are unapproved not because we disagree. We disagree all the time. Most of your comments have been off-topic and tangential. If it were up to me, more of your comments would not be up.
We are not here to solve world hunger. You are wrong to believe that Muslims should come for ultimate guidance here, except perhaps where shayookh write. This blog discusses issues and where possible, provides some food for thought in terms of solutions. We are not here to establish khilaafah online.
P.S. Your future comments along the same line will remain moderated until MM moderators discuss pros/cons of it. So, if u dont see your comments come up immediately, u know whats going on.
Maajid
May 19, 2011 at 10:41 AM
Jazak Allahh khair for your response, I know most of my comments do not go up :) O’contraire not because they are off-topic rather because of disagreement. If we are discussing a social problem and apologizing on behalf of Muslims for an assault on a western woman in a mob during a social unrest. I assume the educated Muslim readers here would be interested to go forward and talk about the solutions to these problems inshAllah. Apologizing and stopping at it will only lead to further similar acts and we will run out of space to post apologies for every woman or man.
What solution other than calling the Muslim Ummah to our deen Al-Islam in its entirety would you suggest concerning such atrocities against men or women in Muslim lands?
And if we call the Ummah to Islam in its entirety what other system is there other than Islamic system by default as prescribed by Allah and demonstrated by centuries of implementation.
“Mankind was [of] one religion [before their deviation]; then Allaah sent the prophets as bringers of good tidings and warners and sent down with them the Scripture in truth to judge between the people concerning that in which they differed. And none differed over it [i.e. Scripture] except those who were given it-after the clear proofs came to them-out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allaah guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allaah guides whom He wills to a straight path.” [Quran 2:2 13]
AnonyMouse
May 19, 2011 at 12:28 PM
Challenge is on, then :)
(After I’m done with the booklet project and a few other side ones I’ve got going on at the moment + traveling… I come to MM in my free time)
Well, isn’t it about us anyway? Isn’t Olivia trying to say that we as Muslims need to solve these problems that we face in our community?
As for the victim, I think everyone here so far has expressed horror at what happened to her. We aren’t dismissing her, or belittling her terrible experience.
About apologizing, as I mentioned already, I don’t think there is any need for us to apologize. It simply reinforces the idea that somehow, Muslims are inherently guilty. (Plus I pointed out thing about how it’s just assumed that Muslims did it ‘cuz Egypt is a Muslim majority even though everyone might not be religious, etc.)
Unless America is that radically different from Canada, I’m kinda confused about what you mean here.
The problem is when certain issues ARE interlinked and have something to do with each other. We cannot simply isolate Ms. Logan’s case (for example), because it gives an impression that such things are ONLY committed by Muslims. Whereas we hear precious little on the same (worse) crimes being committed daily by, say, American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan… and those who do bring up these stories regularly are the same ones who are dismissed as “armchair jihadis” and “spewing fodder for hatred.”
Alas, it seems to me that there are certain parties which will only focus on political issues affecting the Ummah (Afghanistan etc.); and then there are other parties which only focus on the Muslim-PR-to-America type presentations.
I truly wish that we could have a more thorough balance of both.
N
May 19, 2011 at 12:53 PM
I didn’t read all the comments but after reading most of the article and most of anonymouse’s comments I have to agree 100% with anonymouse.
I think many of us who only watch western media or somehow completely influenced by it have maybe subconsciouly bought into certain messages they send out? Either way im not sure.
I am sorry something horrific happened to this non muslim lady and I will condemn the ppl who did injustice against anyone , but there’s no need for me to APOLOGIZE for it. Why do we need to get so appeasing? Is non muslim life somehow more precious than muslim life??
Its unfortunate for me because Im a very regular reader, but lately the articles on here are getting to be very strange. in my opinion ofcourse. There is extreme pressure in the US on the muslims, and it seems they don’t even feel it consciously but I can see ppl’s tones changing to accomodate that pressure.
Amad
May 19, 2011 at 1:00 PM
How did you get this idea? Try to prove it in your own mind by reading the post again… I think you’ll find many obstacles to finding any evidence for this sentiment. This is a perception you have created yourself.
N
May 19, 2011 at 1:04 PM
Br Amad I read your comments often and I’m not sure what’s going on w/ the moderation team on muslimmatters but your comments seem to be routinely very rude and sarcastic with anyone you seem to disagree with.
N
May 19, 2011 at 1:02 PM
If people really want to know if they do *something* to help Muslims.. how about stop funding the american wars.
is it fardh to reside in america and pay the taxes? how about move to another country that isnt actively funding wars and killing muslims and make dawah there(the excuse of the majority which only a minority actually do)
Amad
May 19, 2011 at 4:03 PM
Actually living here gives muslims a better chance to work within the system that is open to everyone, to lobby for common interests. If we all leave, the lack of our pittance of tax money (relative to total budget) will not stop any wars; rather there will be no one to protest it. In any case, such a discussion is utterly impractical, and really off topic, don’t u agree?
N
May 20, 2011 at 1:17 AM
Brother Amad I find that argument to be very logical.
Unfortunately, most of the Muslims in the west are very very very busy. Busy earning money and working and money and working while their kids are being raised by public schools and facebook.
You know and I know that the percentage of Muslims ‘lobbying’ for our interests is very minute.
Maajid
May 19, 2011 at 1:08 PM
I agree there is an intellectual battle going on in the world to win the hearts and minds of the Muslims and the pressure on Muslims living in the west is extreme. But, as Muslims our situation and circumstances do not mean we begin reacting to someone else’s agenda rather we put things in perspective and look to Islam as a solution and search within the Quran & Sunnah about how Islam would solve these problems.
Although, you are right Muslims are under pressure and acting to accommodate that pressure and turning into ‘apologetics’ there are still Muslims alive in the western world who have not stopped from putting things in perspective, although they are banned, censored and shunned by the more accommodating soft ‘progressive’ sector. Islamic revival does not mean violence or oppression, the Prophet Mohammed SAWS was intellectually inviting people to Islam as a system and deen and he did not retaliate physically until he implemented Islam as a system in Madinah. Not every Muslim activist or inviter to shariah is asking you to promote violence, rather the way the west preaches democracy and secularism, these Muslim forums such as MM should be promoting Islamic Shariah and the Islamic system for a real revival and revolution in Muslim lands and not just a change of face or names.
Abu Hamzah
May 19, 2011 at 4:17 PM
I find this article really silly. First, how do we know this woman is telling the truth. She had four bodyguards with her and they couldn’t stop this from happening? granted there was a mob, however, I still don’t think her story is true. It seems so perfectly orchestrated. This story reminds of of Jessica Lynch. The Americans needed a hero in the Iraq war so they exaggerated what happened to her. I think this woman is just trying to make a name for herself in journalism. I think she is a fraud.
Also, I am confused as to why someone would feel the need to write an article saying sorry to this woman.
Sidiq
May 19, 2011 at 5:01 PM
I think the author fails to indicate the context in which this crime has occurred. As I understand it, this occurred during the uprising against the former Egyptian regime, considering the possibility also that perhaps the victim has chosen the wrong place and the wrong time, and dare I say the wrong dress code, this could have facilitated the the venting of fury against an innocent reporter, tragic. I’m appalled by people defending this action.
On the other hand, the whole tone of the article is also embarrassingly weak, there are many fantastic writers on here, surely one person amongst the MM staff could have realized that the entire article is nothing short of a rant. The intention may not be to paint a specific negative image of Muslims, but this article itself is negative. A superior author would have probably used some anecdotes, Qur’an etc. being slightly more positive to prove the point, but this is a rant, it’s no wonder it’s gaining hostility, it’s because its almost confrontational. And the retort is an embarrassment by the author. Take some criticism, it will only make you a better author, this is not a quality article unfortunately, nobody wants to read a rant. And I’m quite sure that those who are applauding this article are only doing it for the cause, not the content.
I have exposed non-Muslims not only to Islam but to the “crimes of America†in a way that most of you cannot match (Kompier)
I feel humbled.
Sidiq
May 19, 2011 at 5:12 PM
“What am I talking about? I’m talking about how it’s time we felt some embarrassment for our ummah. It’s time we felt ashamed. And if you don’t want to feel it, that’s fine. I’m here to tell everyone that I feel it. After watching Lara Logan’s interview, I felt embarrassed and ashamed to be a part of this ummah. I don’t feel ashamed to be a Muslim. I will never feel ashamed that I believe in one God, that I adhere to the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and the guidance of the Holy Qur’an. I am always proud of that, but I am ashamed that when I look around, I see such disgraceful behavior from other people who also claim to follow this great religion and call themselves Muslims. I am ashamed that with the mantle of Quranic teachings, which seeks to reform human beings and bring them to dignity and justice, are people who stoop to the lowest behavior — behavior that not only runs counter to our religion but to basic human manners, courtesy, and common sense.”
There’s a lot of negativity here, lol. I think some of it could have been worded better.
F
May 19, 2011 at 6:39 PM
I just watched the video and the description of the assault is hair raising. My heart began to sank as I tried to picture how a group of men can actually do this for 25 minutes (while also taking pics on their phones).
I wonder how many of the posters who are going “This was bad BUT…..” have actually watched the video? I wouldn’t be surprised if overwhelming majority of the readers have not bothered to do so.
'Abd al-Kareem
May 19, 2011 at 6:39 PM
Curious that Mrs. Logan can go through such an ordeal (25 minutes long) and come out without any broken bones, any dislocations or fractures, nor even some basic bruises. Not a scratch on her entire body!
Also curious that she claimed to see the alleged molesters and witnesses whipped out their cell phones to snap up pics and video clips, yet not a single one managed to surface online or otherwise.
Also very curious that Témoris Grecko, a foreign non-Muslim reporter who was also in Egypt at the time, claims (amongst others) to have seen the incident as it happened, although his version of events is much different than Lara’s.
Abu Maryam
May 19, 2011 at 8:13 PM
The article seems like a rant; from the delivery and tone of the article it seems a valid conclusion to make. There is nothing wrong with that: having a rant!
Everyone without doubt will agree Lara went through hell and the criminal mob are the worst of creatures and deserve to face justice (definitely on Day of Judgment). No one is blaming the victim! It is a case of wrong person at the wrong place at the wrong time; however not in Allah’s qadr!
Our MM ummah is arguing about whether. sister Olivia, or we, should apologize to Laura or not: that is a sad and sorry state to see ourselves in. And shall I say it and start part 2… I am embarrassed and would like to apologise about this : ) ; )
There have been some presumptions made…
1. Muslims were involved.
2. Some people of Egyptian society, as part of their “culture”, treat women as sex objects or violate them.
3. The testimony of Lara in relaying her story is 100% as she states, including the few who witnessed it.
…to what extent Allah knows best .
Having read most of the comments, I can categorise people’s comments into these camps:
1. We need to apologise because….
2. We do NOT need to apologise because….
3. 1. attacks 2. and vice versa
4. 1. + What do we do about it?
5. 2 + What do we do about it?
6. 4. attacks 5. and vice versa
7. Permutation of 3. and 6!!
8. Other people supporting 1-7 depending on how much power of persuasion 1-7 holds!
9. Some people judging other people’s intentions
10. Some people did not apologize for 3, 6, 7 and 9.
I agree with 1,2,4 and 5 – if backed up with wisdom, but cannot agree with the rest!
Amazing thing is – whilst we’re arguing about a apologizing for the crimes of others, yet we do not apologise and fail to see our ‘crimes’ or errors, no matter how big or small, in this post!
For defending the ‘apology is OK to make’ camp – brother Siraaj made the most sense when he simply stated : “we often apologize for the behavior of those close to us when they violate someone’s rights. As an example, if you’re spouse, parent, or some other relative was rude to a friend, you might apologize to the friend even though you had nothing to with what was said – you might even feel embarrassed, though you did nothing.”
For defending the ‘No apology is needed camp’ – sister Anonymouse made a convincing case: “…While Lara’s case shouldn’t be ignored, neither should it be raised and elevated as a point about which we must apologize. Rather, it should be an example amongst many others, equally horrific, and instead of apologizing, it should rather be a reminder and rallying call to us as Muslims to evaluate ourselves and our behaviour, and how we can tackle the many, many problems that we have in the Muslim Ummah.”
Can we close this post now and move on and do what’s best – provide solutions to ourummah’s, even or one’s personal problems! If we do not agree with others, accept that there will be differences, but we learn to accept valid opinions and other’s perspectives that have wisdom – agree?
WAJiD
May 19, 2011 at 8:29 PM
“We are not here to solve world hunger. You are wrong to believe that Muslims should come for ultimate guidance here, except perhaps where shayookh write. This blog discusses issues and where possible, provides some food for thought in terms of solutions. We are not here to establish khilaafah online.”
I think you do MM a disservice here. Although the point about this not being a fatwa-bank are taken for granted, why shouldn’t MM have a vision that is more than just being a talking shop? No one is saying that MM is THE solution, but it can and should be at least part of the solution to the problem of Muslims not being united upon Islam.
Through debate, discussion, reflection, unity of purpose and not a uniformity of views – we can make solving world hunger seem easy inshaAllah.
Siraaj
May 19, 2011 at 9:28 PM
Salaam alaykum all,
My wife will insha’Allah respond later tonight. In the meantime, I’ll share my thoughts on this article and how it came about.
I came upon this story when it first broke months ago, and I was deeply troubled with what I read (without knowing the details). When the details were released in the interview, let’s just say I wasn’t thrilled and my wife asked me why. When she saw the story, it disturbed her as well.
The piece wasn’t written to score PR points with anyone. I’ve seen that accusation multiple times now, and I have a pretty good guess who is reading completely with an open mind and who, well, appears to be going through the usual knee-jerk reaction to an apology to a nonMuslim for anything. It’s been stated multiple times now that there is no attempt to curry favor with Western media or nonMuslims.
But I know that nothing will convince of what I’m saying. When it comes to this woman’s case, many have demanded proof for the event and have quoted verifying news, even from a fasiq, yet without proof of my wife’s intentions have already concluded she’s a sell out trying to curry favor with the west, and apologizing to take responsibility (though it’s already been said this is not an apology of responsibility).
And I guess that was really the point behind this article. Many of us are an unjust bunch. I don’t disagree with you, that we should aggressively call out harm and wrong that is done to our community, but I think we need to be willing to call out the evil within our community for what it is without, “This is wrong, but…” The point here is, “This is wrong.” Full stop.
Some of you have said, let’s talk about solutions – I agree with this. In order to get to that point, we have to first acknowledge there is a problem, and we have to know how to prioritize our problems. The response, “Yes, it was bad, but…” demonstrates that we’re still stuck on how the problem is, “out there.” Yes, there are problems out there, but before we can solve the problems out there, we have to solve those, “in here”. That means taking a good look at ourselves (meaning the Ummah as a whole) and aiming for change.
When one is hurt in the Ummah, we are all hurt. When one is corrupt in the Ummah and we ignore, deflect, and justify it, we are all harmed by it because even if we are not directly responsible for the behavior, we are responsible for enjoining good and forbidding evil as much as we can. More than enough Muslim sisters have complained about the treatment they receive from Muslim men in Muslim countries (not just egypt).
Some of you have asked, what about writing about the atrocities that have occurred to others – MM has done that so much for Muslims, and we encourage those of you who wish to report more to do so. Some of you have said, where is their apology and outrage for what happens to us, and my response is, go to any story where atrocities are reported against Muslims by US soldiers (try the Esquire story on the US Kill Team), and see the response from Americans. It’s painful to see that Americans, nonMuslims, people who do not have the guidance of our Prophet (SAW), have better manners in the face of injustice than many of our brothers and sisters.
There is an infamous Muslim forum right now examining my wife’s article, and without knowing her, or asking her about her intentions, or proving it, labeling her a munafiq and sell out. Our family doesn’t mind the backbiting or the hypocrisy in saying, “Where’s the proof?” and then condemning someone without it because it’s simply more reward in her direction anyway, and I’ll refrain from saying anything negative about them beyond that we don’t see the kindness, mercy, and justice the Prophet (SAW) exerted when dealing directly with his oppressors in the Madinan period.
For those who have said, where is the proof that these were Muslims, or that these weren’t Ahlus Sunnah Muslims, or what have you, or that there’s a conspiracy, or that her wounds have disappeared. Somehow, I don’t think you’ll be faking a medical examiner’s report which state the injuries are consistent with the story, and there’s really nothing to be gained by saying on the one hand, Egyptian men attacked her, and on the other hand, niqabi women and Egyptian soldiers saved her. There is only one group of people I can think of who would be inflamed at the idea that she’s a Jew, and I’m doubtful it was Coptic Egyptians.
I was asked, what was the relevance of story of Ba’ir Ma’oonah. The Prophet (SAW) had sent a group of Muslims to teach a specific tribe about Islam. A man from that tribe wanted to capture and kill the Muslims, but it was not accepted from his leader. He went to another tribe and incited them to attack and kill those Muslims, and they did, except for one. This one escaped, and on the way, he killed two men from that very same tribe that killed the Muslims, two men who had just taken protection from the Prophet (SAW). When the Companion returned and related the story of what happened, the Prophet (SAW) paid the diyah for their death, acknowledging that what was done was wrong, even though their tribesmen had just slaughtered the Muslims. The point is that the wrong that this tribe did towards the Muslims didn’t cause the Prophet (SAW) to say it was ok since they just killed ours – he honored his word, even after their people did what they did, and didn’t say, “Well, it what you did was wrong, but what they did was worse, so don’t talk about what you did.”
In the end, what was written was written because it was heartfelt. Not because of her race, or because of her looks, or, as one MM author said above (intending well, I’m sure) that the case has more value because it affects Muslims. I think that was definitely the last thing on my mind, and I know my wife’s mind. It was just one person to another. Take it for what it is, make fun of it and call it naive, and it is to Allah we ask to show who is telling the truth in their statements, and who is speaking from ignorance.
Finally, for those of you who have written in comments that have been moderated, I’ve read your comments and I hope that even though we can’t post them, you’ll find in my response answers to your questions. If there was some point I missed, please forgive me for missing it.
Siraaj
Inqiyaad
May 20, 2011 at 1:03 AM
Wa ‘alaikum as salaam Br. Siraaj,
I personally cannot see that anyone whose comments were posted here was arguing that what happened to Lara was justified, and is acceptable because worse crimes were perpetrated against Muslims. If anything, the people who are criticizing the article are also calling for justice (So Bi’r Ma’oonah incident would be out of context). I know you have access to comments that are not posted. If those suggested that this incident was justified then you did a good job of not giving them airtime.
Alhamdulillah, you and your wife did a good job maintaining your composure while being faced with harsh (though I believe it was valid) criticism. May Allah accept this from you both.
What I write below is a general observation and not directed at your family.
The details of the incident were horrific. Even horrific were the details of the Mahmudiyyah gang rape and killings. Please don’t even try to deflect this to, “oh, shame on you for justifying one crime with another.” No, not me, not anyone whose comments were posted is arguing on those lines.
Rather, the argument is this. If an apology is due to a fellow human being, fellow national or any victim on behalf of your namesake co-coreligionists, an apology is due to your Muslim brothers and sisters who are raped, maimed and killed. The namesake coreligionists are/were not abetted by you financially or morally. While the troops that gang raped the 14 year girl are directly supported by your tax dollars. After any such incident we hear the well rehearsed lines, “Our troops are brave men and women. This behavior, if indeed it happened, is not representative of our troops.” And from the Muslims, “we condemn this.”
Brother Iesa, It is not about moral equivalence of Muslims to Non-Muslims.
My (our) questions are directed at Muslims, and specifically people here (and some of them moderators) who are arguing in a very rude manner. Did you apologize to Abeer? Oh, she is dead!
You condemned the incident. You or anyone here on this blog never apologized for it and rightly so.
I clearly remember what Shaykh Waleed Basayouni told a questioner at the peace conference in his lecture about Islamic extremism. The question was basically, “why why don’t you apologize for the American terrorist activities?” He just said, “why do you hold me responsible for my governments actions?”, and I agree. If you do this as an American, please, extend this courtesy to yourself as a Muslim.
@Br. Amad
I am not a fan of calls for Hijrah based on misplaced/incomplete understanding of the concept. However, because your tax dollars contributed to the rapes you should have started apologizing long ago. If your tax dollars are a pittance, so are your protests.
You blame people of making assumptions about the life of Muslim vs non-Muslim. I can vouch that you do not estimate a Muslim’s life as inferior. But, I can also vouch that the assumptions about people being in denial about the existence of this problem (sexual harassment), or about justification of one wrong with another are misplaced. Do you believe that decent people in those societies see this as acceptable and somehow MM has to show them the daylight? It is the bad sheep!
Improve your PR with your Rabb before you do so with the mankind, and He will place love for you in their hearts.
Brother Amad, excuse me if you find me rude but, this really touched a nerve. As someone here mentioned your disagreements come of as very rude. Please take this as a naseehah from your younger brothers and sisters.
——————-
In conclusion, I cannot put it more eloquently than Muddassir, “if you as an american and a Muslim starts to apologize for all the evil acts done by your fellow americans and muslims, then you have a lot of apologizing to do!”
“Apologies by unrelated parties mean zilch. Condemnations are a step forward. Justice is the whole nine yards!”
Siraaj
May 20, 2011 at 5:18 AM
Salaam alaykum Inqiyaad,
If the article was all about accepting responsibility on behalf of the Muslim community, you and everyone else complaining about the apology would have a point, but this article isn’t about one Muslim apologizing and taking responsibility for all Muslims and Islam. As has been stated the article and in the responses, apologies are of different types, and one is to take responsibility, but others are to offer condolences, and still others occur when a person close to you does something harmful to someone else, though you are not held responsible or have anything to do with the behavior.
Siraaj
Muddassir
May 19, 2011 at 10:18 PM
Guys have you read the previous article in muslimmatters where a sister was courageous enough to share that she faced sexual harassment during umrah near the kaaba. So what would your advice be for that sister, that she stay at her home, that she was not appropriately dressed during umrah, and all that nonsense? Hence let’s condemn these sick people who take pictures of a naked lady who is being raped, and there is no need to put the blame on the lady. Also I agree that there has to be no ‘but’ after the condemnation. Lets separate the issues, and not to club everything together. However no need to offer an apology, condemnation and demanding punishment is sufficient.
N
May 20, 2011 at 1:24 AM
It seems that muslimmatters started out being a website that published articles that incorporated knowledge within them and it seemed they were edited by others..im assuming cuz of quality.
But starting from around the time of the revolution in egypt…the articles that have come out .. some even that i just would never expect to read on muslimmatters..that seem like no one grounded in knowledge ever proof-read…why?
This article, the article about the lessons learned from the revolution in egypt…these are topics to be dealt with by someone who is grounded in knowledge so they can deal with it in a thorough educated fashion, not in an emotional way.
I’m not coming to muslimmatters to read rants. I’ve got the whole blogosphere to do that. I come to muslimmatters to read quality articles that deal with reality but through the lense of Islamic knowledge.
Isn’t it better to publish fewer articles with more quality?
Olivia
May 20, 2011 at 2:19 AM
This is quite a heated discussion, I don’t even know where to begin.
Firstly, I wanted to send my heartfelt thanks to all the people who have called me, point blank, a munafiq. Thank you very much for all of your hasanat. I think that if there’s one thing we can learn from this whole experience, it’s that some people are so filled with rage and so hell-bent on their views, that anyone who disagrees with them is deserving of the most hideous title that can be doled out. Such boldness, to throw out a label like that when only Allah knows a person’s heart. Truly disturbing. But I appreciate the good deeds! That is, unless they’ve already been given away to the last person you slandered…
Another person mentioned that my association with the kuffar has clouded my judgment. On the contrary, I think my association with them, having disbelieving family, has prevented me from dehumanizing them as some Muslims are inclined to do.
To the person who is expounding on the Shariah and calling people to Islam, I agree with you that we should be making dawah to this, and this is yet another reason why I think we need to call these things out. It’s bad enough when its an internal problem, but it adds a whole new dimension of bad when we, the nation sent to be a witness over mankind, is making the most horrible and unjust witness. The rest of the world looks at our deplorable situation and cringes or sees an incident like this and feels repulsed by the Muslim presence. How can we call people to the light of Islam when our own lands and communities are so full of darkness? We are not fit to be leaders. So what do we have to do within ourselves to change that? Allah does not change the situation of a people until they change what is within themselves.
Secondly, all this bringing up of “look what is happening in Muslim countries” is major deflection, like so major I can’t believe you’re doing it but that’s okay, I’m trying not to be surprised. Trying to discredit me is equally as typical. Just like people tried to discredit Lara Logan so they wouldn’t have to accept her story you discredit me so you don’t have to accept anything I say. If you don’t like what you read or hear, just find a way to turn the speaker into chopped liver. I mean, My God, we are so predictable!
Thirdly, to all of those who respectfully and intelligently disagree, I address some of your points below.
I see that the main focus on this article is my apology. I don’t know why it’s so upsetting for people to see me apologize to a woman who was raped and passed through a crowd of 300 or so men for everyone to take a turn. I even explicitly stated that it was just from me to her. I never called upon anyone else to apologize, nor did I call upon us to take the blame, yet everyone is acting as if I did. You may not like it that I said sorry, but honestly, I don’t apologize or not apologize based on other people’s feelings. Yet it floors me that it is so infuriating for people to just witness me saying sorry to a non-Muslim who was raped in this fashion. Why is saying sorry that a sign of weakness or defeatism? I think it’s an expression of mercy and sympathy. It is nothing else. I mean, to hear so many commentors say “Yes, what happened was horrible and I feel bad for her but I WILL NOT SAY SORRY” sounds so petty and self-indulgent now I feel embarassed all over again, sorry guys. You don’t really feel anything for her, you’re just covering your bases so you don’t sound like total cads before you launch into an explanation as to why what happened to us is far worse so therefore we shouldn’t really care about this. And this is just my point. People are so firm on not saying sorry because of what all the non-muslims think, allowing what you do and don’t do to be based on them. I apologized for Lara, the victim. You guys won’t apologize for Mike Savage and Bill O’Reilly and Fox News and the racist next-door. Why are we more sensitive to them then to the victim? Why are Islamophobes the people we craft our responses for?
To whoever said that “we don’t know who was in the crowd or if they were Muslims” etc., to me that’s just PR. To say “to say that this was done by Muslims bc it was Egypt is like saying every white person who committs a rape is a Christian” is, in my opinion, just the usual PR stuntwork that’s delivered to nonMuslims so that the heat won’t get turned up on us. I think in a country with such an overwhelming population of Muslims, who identify themselves as Muslims, we can be pretty sure it was Muslims. 90% of Egypt is Muslim. And considering the trend of flagrant sexual violence of varying degrees against women in Muslim countries, I think we can safely say this is a problem that is stemming from some people’s demented blend of Islam and Jahiliya. If you look at the role that religion plays in Egyptian society and how Egyptians feel about it, its far different than how Christians view Christianity and identify with their religion. Why are we trying to pretend this isn’t the case? As Muslims we put our religious identity to the forefront, while in America people put their nationality first, like they do in every other country, because frankly, the vast majority of them don’t care about their religion that much. Agnosticism is quickly replacing Christianity. We are called the Muslim world while the rest of the world is not defined my religion–this isn’t a coincidence. When will we admit that many of these problems, like a woman being sexually assaulted by a crowd, are “Muslim” problems? Let’s be real, there is definitely an overtone of male sexism that permeates Muslim countries (that means devaluing women based on their sex), and unfortunately many men feel that this is sanctioned, to some degree, by Islam. When I say that, it doesn’t make me a sell-out or a progressive. I’m just a conservative Muslim who isn’t in denial or who won’t allow Islamophobia and PR concerns to trump what I believe is a greater problem. As a conservative Muslim I can say with utmost confidence that I know that my religion does not sanction this behavior, unlike the progressives who aren’t so sure. People get all shaky when we start talking about this stuff, because they think the next thing coming is a call to reform Islam. Sorry, I’m not that person, although many would like me to be so that they can just dismiss everything I said.
People can bring up all the harassment and rape in the West, etc. and once again, this is just deflection. No one is saying that there isn’t a problem here in the west, but just because there is a problem here doesn’t mean it makes our’s more “okay”. And even if it is more common here, the bigger question is why in this country does it happen in secret and women are able to press charges with justice? Why in Muslim countries is it more socially acceptable to harass and rape and law enforcment doesn’t take it seriously, if they even care? Why are some laws so backwards as to condone it?
Why did I bring up Lara Logan’s case and not just write a general article about how we need to address our own problems? Because I think it’s one thing to hear something general that sounds good and in theory we’ll address our problems, and its quite another to have a real-life scenario presented. Now when it’s not just “in-theory” anymore, subhanAllah, everyone’s true colors come out. I also wrote about her because I think that a case like hers is the prime example of an atrocity happening on Muslim hands, one that isn’t just some fringe group like Al Qaeda, that is alluding to bigger problems that we need to collectivity address as an ummah. This was just a mass of celebrators in tahrir square. It wasn’t just a handful of criminals, it was 200-300 men that shoved their hands into this woman’s vagina and anus and raped her and beat her. She wasn’t just dragged into an alley where no one could see by a few guys. As soon as the light went out on her camera, it was as if the veil of darkness was a green flag to *whisper whisper*”Let’s take off her pants…” Wouldn’t that be so funny? What a good joke. I guess they never meant it to go that far, but you know what they say when it comes to sex, one thing leads to another. And then “shes a jew!” AWESOME, now we really don’t have to care about this woman! screw her and kill her! this attack was not in stealth, this attack was flagrant and massive and no one held back because she was a hot “jew”. I mean, massively hand-raping a hot, blonde “jew”, and you want to tell me that our religious identity is not involved in this at all? Give. me. a. break.
I don’t think we need to apologize every time a Muslim does something wrong. I won’t apologize for fringe groups or handfuls of criminals. But a mass crowd of Muslims mauling a single woman? I personally feel that something like that is attached to our collectivity. You can disagree with me all you want, but i think that if a woman walks into a Muslim country believing she is safe, and a huge crowd of people there betrays her in such a flagrant and disgusting way, we should feel some embarassment over that. I mean, if the tables were turned, we would be hopping mad. If a Muslim woman from Egypt walked into an America rally reporting for AlJazeera and was raped by the crowd after it was shouted “Take off her pants, she’s a Muslim!” would we just say, “Oh, you can’t really know who was in the crowd” and “This has nothing to do with how Americans feel about Muslims” or “Americans shouldn’t feel bad that islamophobia is rampant in their country” or “I don’t really care if Americans are doing anything to combat Islamophobia and their social ills”.
Finally, I will point out that the people who saved her were, niqaabis and hijaabis, men too, in other words, practicing Muslims. Saving her was something they did at risk to their own safety. i just hope how we respond when we hear of these incidents is a reflection of those Muslims and not a reflection of those who collectively convinced themselves to turn away.
The Truth Seeker
May 20, 2011 at 2:49 AM
I said it earlier … No point in arguing . You definitely are not aware of the horrors and the brutalities which are happening on daily basis to muslims .
It’s better to leave people on their own when they refuse to acknowledge the sensitivity of the matter .
I guess you have never seen the gruesome situation in front of your eyes . I won’t blame you because you are not aware .
The Truth Seeker
May 20, 2011 at 2:57 AM
And I am sorry but everybody does not have Shakespeare type english and dictionary opened in front of them .
Sebkha
May 20, 2011 at 4:00 AM
Seriously if this is the kind of nonsense that’s making it past moderation here, I’d truly hate to see what’s been held back!! (not a criticism of the mods, just a criticism of the ever increasing absurdity of “the truth seeker’s” comments) While Olivia’s article and comments have been compelling, intriguing, thought provoking, and eloquent, they’re not Shakespearean by any means!
If one’s language and reading comprehension aren’t up to snuff, it would behoove you to maybe crack open a dictionary, or just ask for clarification on something you’re reading here, rather than embarrass yourself like this with the silly comments you’ve been making. Whether you agree with her points or not, there’s no issue to be had over her writing style. It’s clear, concise and to the point, and she doesn’t use a bunch of fancy embellishments or flowery language. If her manner of writing is incomprehensible to you, that’s your problem, not hers.
Mayubelle
May 20, 2011 at 2:53 AM
A feisty and excellent response Olivia! And very comprehensive…u said it all. Glad to see that u aren’t in the least intimidated or daunted by the negative feedback coming your way. Some of it is, as you said, extraordinarily petty, others have framed their responses more thoughtfully. We are indeed a very unjust bunch and ” the nation sent to be a witness over mankind, is making the most horrible and unjust witness”. Our compulsive need to qualify every bit of well-deserved criticism taht comes our by “yes its bad, but looks what happens to muslims etc” is the most maddening part of it, and is what partially prevents us from rising out of our stagnant state. Hope u continue writing such articles, and I hope to start contributing articles to this blog as well on what I think are pressing issues muslims need to address. Thanks again!
Sebkha
May 20, 2011 at 4:10 AM
I agree!
In our defense, a whole lot of people have this problem, in addition to Muslims, but most of the negative commenters would do well to remember that there can be more than one wrong thing in the world. And recognizing that there are other wrongs in the world does not mean you’re making excuses, qualifying wrongs, or being dismissive of them. Just realizing that while numerous atrocities are being perpetrated on Muslims right now, bad things are happening to other people too. And we can and should protest against those other wrong things too. Injustice anywhere threatens everyone.
n
May 20, 2011 at 5:59 AM
I think if you travelled here to egypt, you’d realize that alot of times ppl do bad or good things not just because of islam, but because they are humans. I think human beings all over the world do extremely disgusting and also some incredibly amazing things. Such is the nature of mankind.
The problem is we have been duped to always connect the actions of Muslims to their monolithic character which is a bunch of baloney. I mean just like some barbaric humans did this crazy deed some decent people saved her.
If something like this happened in America, I don’t think ANYONE would be talking about the ‘christian’ or the ‘jewish’ or the ‘agnostic’ character or that this is an american problem. No we would be talking about the DERANGED INDIVIDUALS who did this.
I think what happened to this lady is absolutely horrific.
I also know that people in Egypt think the US funded their oppressive government which oppressed them for DECADES and whatever little some ignorant idiots can do to ‘get back at them’ they will do. That is their mentality.
Surprisingly I don’t recall reading any article addressing this massive issue.
Just like you live near non muslims and don’t dehumanize them, its really important to be in touch w/ the muslim ummah before you start talking about it, don’t you think, because then inadvertently you come across as talking about them as one big mass, without any idea of the nuances of their lives. Knowing select muslim communities in the US does not mean we are IN TOUCH W/ THE UMMah and know its issues. Such a statement would be more acceptable coming from a muslim scholar or da’ee who travels widely and actually deals with ppl’s issues.
The reason I am saying this is because if we were really in touch w/ the Muslim ummah, we would have started apologizing to muslim brothers/sisters LONG AGO.. who have WAY MORE rights on us about the HORRIFIC policies/treatment of them by the US.
Who do you think it was that telling Egypt to keep its borders closed when the gaza muslims were being massacred. No it wasnt the egyptian government. It was the sold out egyptian government being fed dollars by our very own US government. but i think that doesn’t move us because they are so far away from us, that we are able to somehow dehumanize them in our minds Allah knows best.
and dont tell me oh its because the government sold out:
Just like the US likes to get to the ‘source ‘ of these alqaeeda terrorist threats..(remember ali tamimi?) and get the main guy…ask yourselves which government is known to wreak havoc in the world…
On another note…what about apologizing to Pakistanis about routinely bombing innocent Pakistanis using drones. and im not talking about one. Im talking about dozens, hundreds!. I’m talking about random CHILDREN being “accidentally” killed.
Or is that somehow not on our list of priorities because none of them is able to come on to a US news channel and have an interview?
Siraaj
May 20, 2011 at 6:27 AM
Salaam alaykum N,
In response to your previous comment and this one:
1. The vast majority of articles are published by non-shaykh authors.
2. This article was approved for publication by one of our shuyookh who read through it and offered feedback.
3. We’ve had less consistent editing in past articles, and more so during the past year or so.
For those looking for an account from Egyptians who witnessed the attack, try the following:
http://www.rue89.com/caire-annee-zero/2011/05/03/ils-ont-sauve-la-reporter-de-cbs-agressee-sexuellement-au-caire-202234
It’s in french, so put it through an online translator of choice to read it if you don’t speak french.
Finally, the article is clear that the problem isn’t islam, it’s muslims and their behavior, as is the response. In your previous comments, you’ve made no bones about calling out desi and pakistani culture and how women are treated, and I don’t see that this article doesn’t anything different except to call out what happened to a nonMuslim instead of a Muslim.
Injustice is injustice and should be called out regardless. If I call out one injustice done to a nonMuslim, it doesn’t mean I must also qualify it with over 1000 injustices done to other Muslims. There are numerous articles on this website from other authors on injustices perpetrated against Muslims, and I know my wife has spent considerable time with her own contacts spreading the news about injustices against Muslims.
I could not imagine meeting any nonMuslim woman, a victim of rape, and telling her, “I condemn what happened to you, and btw, I condemn what happens in Muslim countries around the world by your US troops, and…”
Our defensive mindedness is so thorough, the arguments so rote, that we don’t stop to consider that what we’re arguing against is not even what’s being said or claimed.
Siraaj
N
May 21, 2011 at 10:53 PM
agreed, i would never meet a victim of rape or any injustice and tell her that either.
AnonyMouse
May 20, 2011 at 8:26 AM
As-salaamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh,
First off, I just wanted to say that I love how you respond. Masha’Allah you’re keeping your cool very well… may Allah reward you. I’m absolutely disgusted at how quick certain folks are to scream “HYPOCRITE!” at opposing views.
Secondly, while I probably shouldn’t bother arguing finer points (I’m all for agreeing to disagree), I had to pick on this:
Having lived in Egypt for about a year and a half, I can safely say that a vast percentage of Egyptians are more secular than “all-inclusively religious.” Though many of them will identify themselves as “Muslim,” it is, again, more of a cultural identity. Though Islam may be more at the forefront of Egyptian society than Christianity is in American society, it is not by a significant margin.
Furthermore, the context of the attack plays a huge role in how I and others are viewing this incident. Most of us are aware of the statistics of sexual harassment in pre-revolution Egypt and we agree that it is a major problem of this “Muslim society.” None of us deny it. The additional accusations of her being a Jewish spy are also alarming and disgusting, but I do believe were a flimsy excuse to attack her.
We can probably go ’round and ’round debating details, but in the end I’d like to say that I don’t consider myself as deflecting the issue. I believe myself to be one of those who holds myself and fellow Muslims accountable for their problems, however “sensitive.”
And if we’re going to choose “real life” examples of these problems in the Ummah, I’d also like to point out the ongoing saga of Mukhataran Mai, a woman in a Pakistan who was gang-raped by men of her village, allegedly on a point of “honour.” These men were also “Muslim.” They used the age-old “honour” excuse (and most of them would probably link it to Islam somehow) to commit a terrible atrocity.
Problems in the Ummah? Hell, yeah.
Singling out just one example, the context and details of which are somewhat murky and controversial, and in a manner that implies that it’s more serious because it happened to this particular individual, to point out just how bad we are? I dunno, it just doesn’t sit right with me.
I think I’ve probably lost the thread of my point(s) by now and opened up many holes that make me open to attack, so I’ll stop now :/
Amman Abdul Adl
May 20, 2011 at 4:52 PM
“Another person mentioned that my association with the kuffar has clouded my judgment. On the contrary, I think my association with them, having disbelieving family, has prevented me from dehumanizing them as some Muslims are inclined to do.”
Sister how is it that you can’t dehumanize them when Allah has said that they are “Worst of creatures”. (Qur’an 8.55).
Sister “Olivia”, showing so much sympathy to the kuffar has made the muslims weak and negligent. You quoted eloquently “Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (with their own souls)†[Quran 13: 11], Maybe it applies this situation as well…
Allah Knows Best…
Siraaj
May 22, 2011 at 12:38 AM
Salaam alaykum Amman,
It may be better to take care of how the Qur’aan is quoted – you quoted part of an ayah, and missed the rest of it:
Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are those who have disbelieved, and they will not [ever] believe –
This is referring to people who die in disbelief, not in people who are currently disbelievers – people may be disbelievers all their lives and become Muslims, and people may be Muslims all their lives and become disbelievers.
I would suggest also reading the ayaat before and after, and I would also encourage reading a tafseer explaining the context of the revelation.
Siraaj
Junaid
May 22, 2011 at 2:27 AM
even if taken out of context, there are rights and actions reserved for Allah as the creator what allah reserves of his actions, mercy and wrath is not what the creation can take on themselves. As Muslims we submit to his commands. This Ayah is a ‘description’ if you will of what allah dislikes and is not a directive to dehumanize.
Junaid
May 22, 2011 at 1:45 AM
and the same Rab commands you to invite them to the Deen and with beautiful teachings and Wisdom, how would you do that – by hating, dehumanizing?
The Messenger(SWS) prayed for one of the two most against Islam to be guided and Allah Guided Omar(RA) and the list is long.
Do not cherry pick from the Quran/Sunnah to attack anyone, not just the author. It is not from the character of a Muslim.
Carlos
May 26, 2011 at 5:41 PM
Amman Abdul Adl, I am assuming you are an extremist, and not any sort of a typical Muslim, since you appear to be arguing in favor of dehumanizing non-believers. I believe you argue that Lara Logan deserves no sympathy from Muslims, because she is a kuffar, and her assailants are presumably Muslims. Do you really think your god wants you to dehumanize any humans? I may just be a kuffar, but I can’t think of anything that could lead to more evil than dehumanizing the majority of humanity. If your interpretation of Islam is true, what does that say about Islam?
Brother
May 20, 2011 at 8:54 PM
I agree with you Olivia. Honestly, this incident left me speechless (can’t find appropriate words to describe my feelings). Without Islam, our ummah truly is nothing.
Carlos
May 20, 2011 at 2:48 AM
Mrs. Logan, I have watched you for years, and have always admired you. In learning of your assault, my admiration for you has only grown. Now I admire your personal strength too. I apologize on behalf of men, even though I do not have a moral obligation to do so. Sadly, I think we men can fall to lower states of civility under the right (wrong) circumstances. That is true regardless what religion or lack of religion we profess.
The Shardul of Allah
May 20, 2011 at 6:48 AM
According to an eye witness, who is also a journalist, Lara’s description doesn’t match with what the journalist saw with his own eyes:
http://temorisblog.wordpress.com/2011/02/21/rape-women-stripped-what-really-happened-to-lara-logan/
May be Lara has faced some sort of sexual harassment, but if this eyewitness is honest, than we have no other option but to conclude that Lara and her employer CBS news have grossly exaggerated the facts to defame the Muslims.
BTW, your following statement is tremendous, and it undermines your article:
I felt embarrassed and ashamed to be a part of this ummah.
There will always be bad apples. Does it mean that I should feel embarrassed to be part of this ummah? Doesn’t our ummah also include the Messenger of Allah (ï·º) and his noble companions?
BadKat
May 22, 2011 at 7:25 PM
Temoris has his own agenda, and I note that there is not a single reporter anywhere who corroborates what he posted, let alone that he was even present. He believes that there was not any incident of assault, anywhere in Tahir Square.
That tells me all I need to know about him.
a muslimah
May 25, 2011 at 3:45 AM
That is how SHE FELT. That is HER opinion. And she made some very valid points.
I will tell you this. When a women is abused and has to have been in the hospital and immediately sent back the same day she IS NOT LYING.
RCHOUDH
May 20, 2011 at 7:32 AM
I’m praying that the ouster of Mubarak will lead to a just government ruling completely by Islam (with no influence from foreign systems of rule) which will industrialize the country, thereby finally giving the vast majority of people jobs and a livelihood so they don’t have to worry about barely making ends meet anymore day-to-day. I’m praying that the educational system is overhauled so as to teach younger Muslims the correct tenets of Islam (which includes teaching them about giving women their due rights and teaching them how haraam it is sexually harass/rape women, any women). I pray that the media isn’t used anymore to spread secular liberal values and used to sexually objectify women through ads and music videos. Instead the media is used to spread an educational campaign towards older Muslim men that rape/harassment of women is NEVER ok and anyone caught doing it anymore will be punished.
Not to excuse their behavior but I remember reading about this issue of the mass harassments/rape in Egypt occurring because young Egyptian men want to take out their frustrations on weaker members of society like women due to political/economic oppression under Mubarak and due to the sexual objectification of women through Egyptian media (gyrating bellydancers in music videos for example). Older Egyptians said that sixty years ago sexual harassment was rare in Egypt, in fact the harassers were shamed and attacked by bystanders for daring to bother women! This changed as the political/economic oppression worsened over the years in Egypt. So I pray that now the government adopts Islam as the complete system of life to govern by and works to take advantage of Egypt’s God-given resources and industriousness of its people to diversify its economy. I fear that simply calling for democracy in Egypt (and other Muslim countries) will prolong the problems of oppression/ignorance because as a democracy the US will try to manipulate the political system to support rulers it deems “acceptable” towards its own interests and it’ll try to keep Egypt from diversifying its economy too much in order to not let it compete with neighboring countries (cough Israel cough). Also without complete independence from foreign meddling due to implementation of democracy, Egypt’s economy will remain dependent upon tourism as a source of revenue and that entails continuing to promote secular, liberal values (the promotion of mixed beaches, alcohol, semi-nudity, nightclubs, etc).
Misha
May 20, 2011 at 1:20 PM
Excellent article Sr. Olivia and I completely agree. It is so disheartening and actually disgusting to read some of the comments left here though. It’s a good thing the Prophet (SAW) was NOT like these men.
Abu Ibrahim
May 20, 2011 at 2:09 PM
Amman Abdul Adl: “Stay at home, obey your husband, and take care of your families. Leave societies problems to the men who are more capable of handling them … So instead of being ashamed, let it be a wake up call to the all muslims (especially the women).”
Asalamu Aleikoum Wa Rahmatolah wa Barakatoho,
The above remark, and other remarks like it on this thread, reeks of male chauvinist **** , who are still living in the seventh century. They need to come out of their caves and join the 21st century, and let the sunshine cure their diseased mind and outlook on life.
BTW, my hats off to Sister Olivia for a most thought provoking article. I would encourage muslimmatters to publish more thought provoking articles, similar to Sister Olivia’s. It is time that we, as muslims, go on the offensive, bring the skeletons out of our closts and publicly discuss them instead of going on the defensive every time.
Thank you so much, Sister Olivia! Let everything that has breath praise Allah swt …
JazakAllahu khayran,
Abu Ibrahim
Amman Abdul Adl
May 20, 2011 at 10:28 PM
Mocking the 7th Century! The century in which the greatest man ever lived changed the world. That century knew more about Islam than anyone living in the 21st Century.
It was that century that eradicated all the problems the muslims are facing today. It was that century that changed the world. So show some appreciation brother. Because i’ll tell you this, I would rather live in that century knowing that we had an iconic figure living and teaching us how we should live. Today, we have so called righteous scholars misleading the muslims with their watered down, disney land version of Islam. Call me a chauvanist or a misogynist, because in the end I have the courage to accept an opinion that doesn’t go down any one else throat.
May Allah forgive me for rudeness and my anger…
Allah Knows Best
Hobbit
May 22, 2011 at 3:21 PM
Oh come on, why was my reply to Amman not posted? I didn’t say anything off-topic or offensive
Coorled38
May 22, 2011 at 9:25 PM
“so called righteous scholars misleading the muslims with their watered down, disney land version of Islam”
That is truly an ironic description of what passes for Islam today…considering we have such extreme measures passing for Islam as in how Muslim women are treated in Saudi, Pakistan, Afghanistan. THOSE dont sound like watered down, Disneyland versions of Islam. But then again, unless YOU are personally affected by those watered down disneland versions than I can see how easy it is to make such a statement.
For heavens sake, I lived in Bahrain….it has a very “western” like reputation…and they still treat women as second class citizens there…not as bad as Saudi for sure but still bad.
Watered down and disney like?…my god, where have you been for the last 50 years?
Muddassir
May 20, 2011 at 10:30 PM
As far as I know the most forward people on earth lived in the seventh century, and women participated in all aspects of society. In fact women were first recognized as human beings and given their rights in this century due to the advent of the last and final religion. Hence please don’t use the oft repeated false statements of the nonMuslims. We don’t need the vulgarity of the 21st century, the pornographic and drinking culture of the 21st century which is directly responsible for this disgusting incident that happened to Logan. If the muslims had practiced Islam and lowered their gaze like they did in the seventh century this incident would not have happened.
Brother
May 20, 2011 at 8:08 PM
I think the people on this message board missed a point. I thought that the 60 minutes interview was done very well and unbiased. Had it been FOX news, they would have applied the crime to the entire Muslim world. However, the interview clearly identified the underlying issue as a common thing in Egyptian society, which I read in a BBC article sounded pretty accurate. Egyptian society had overlooked this problem which had existed before Ms. Logan was raped.
Brother
May 20, 2011 at 8:56 PM
Please do not interpret my comment as a problem only Egypt has. The problem does exist in other parts of the Muslim world, but it seems to be pronounced particularly in Egypt.
Olivia
May 21, 2011 at 2:33 AM
There really isn’t much to comment on here, but sis Anonymous I just wanted to respond to your comment about the gang-rape incident. Such an incident is equally horrific and troubling, and I think adds a nail in the coffin of our discussion of our problems, as you also indicated. My pointing out of Lara Logan’s atrocity is not meant to give specific attention to one person because she is famous or what not. I think with her graphic account of the incident in an interview it had the ability to give an emotional impact that was unprecedented. I also think that its possible some day she might read it. Maybe, maybe not. Who knows. In any event I meant what I said to her and I feel bad for any nonMuslim who has such a bad experience at the hands of Muslims, because it can have pivotal effect for the worse on their relationship with Islam, and that is the most important thing for any person–their deen. I think as Muslims we take it for granted that we have our deen and we don’t appreciate what nonMuslims have to go through, what garbage and baggage of ours they have to sift through, to just get to the truth, if they ever do.
It should also be considered that when something happens to a nonMuslim, and ts no longer an “internal problem”, it adds to the complication of how we Muslims living in the west are to make dawah about our religion to a people who not only think we oppress women, but that we also oppress people of other faiths. One concern of Shariah is that it is a system of justice for Muslims alone and that our beliefs predispose us to treating Jews of Christians in an oppressive manner. Logan mentioned that what she thought what saved her was that the mob held back from attacking the niqaabis (or as she said “their women”). This is a whole new issue aside from sexual violence, but the rage that is resultant of the Israel-Palestine conflict has manifested itself in some very ugly ways, such as targeting synagogues and something like this. This will no doubt make everyone jump up and start ranting about the atrocities of Israel, which without a shadow of a doubt exist and personally make my stomach turn, but that doesn’t justify any crimes of this nature committed on our side. So I guess a final note would be to understand what responsibility we have to our ummah in this regard–What are we doing to inculcate an attitude of justice, one that is reflective of the Shariah and the history of the righteous khulafaa? Are our khutbahs and speeches and discussions in our community doing that, or are they just feeding into the rage and desperation that already exists? Will we get back to our principles, tackle our problems, and put our trust in Allah when it comes to our PR, or will we continue to be perpetually defensive and so squeamish about airing our dirty laundry, that we our ummah with remain stagnant with its problems?
Jazakallahu khair to everyone who participated in the discussion. Please forgive me if I’ve offended anyone and I ask Allah to forgive me for any mistakes I made or anything He found displeasing. Allah knows my goal is to make a positive contribution using my God-given talents, small as they may be. This was no doubt a positive and growing experience for me, what with all the candid discussion, and I hope we all learned, at the very least, the importance of being calm and rational, no matter what (that was a screamfree plug :) ).
Abu Ayesha
May 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM
Sister Olivia please don’t apologise for anything in your article because what you have done is a form of Jihad and the only people your words will offend are the blood-thristy, hatred-filled ones.
simple
May 21, 2011 at 10:15 AM
Salamz folks, for those who are ashamed to be part of Muslim ummah and taking the ummah to trial over this case, did you also forget the honorable treatment of a western journalist by the so called extremist ‘taaleebaaan’? I am talking about Yvonne Ridley who spent time in prison under the them and eventually released and accepted Islam and today is a brave journalist and speaker in the Muslim world. So, would that make you proud to be part of the Muslim ummah or not yet?
It makes no sense, that you are ashamed to be part of the Muslim ummah??? the ummah of Mohammed SAWS due to a crime committed by a mob and narrated by a journalist with conflicting eye witness accounts and there is so much emotion spewed out here against the ummah and ‘growing problem’ etc etc, what about the ummah’s great moral character and patience shown in times of superiority and when the ummah was in control?
This case it was just a mob which also killed, raped and looted other Muslims and we all know how Hosni Mubarak set loose his hound dogs in the form of Men who killed and spread terror among the public to scare them away… when he was losing, his dogs had to do something to vent their frustration and do something to bring shame to the revolution… if this journalist is telling the truth, there are many aspects to look at.. if she herself is playing a role in this ‘character assasination’ of the ummah, may Allah guide her or punish her whichever Allah seems best. For us as Muslims, look at big picture and talk about it from Islam and Muslim perspective about going forward from here inshallah
Brother
May 21, 2011 at 6:09 PM
If you saw the whole video, there is nothing in it that is blaming Muslims or Islam. The closest it gets to in placing any blame (which she does not do) is when Ms. Logan stated that she did not know of the widespread sexual harassment in Egyptian society. And yes, this incident will be used as propaganda by Islamaphobes, but it does not take away from the evil perpetrated by whoever was involved in this. Don’t forget that the interview does mention how Ms. Logan was saved from the mob; it was basically a woman in a burqa (obviously Muslim) and women and men with her.
Abu Muhammad
May 21, 2011 at 3:36 PM
Wa Alaikum As-Salaam Br Siraaj,
This is in reply to your previous comment to me. I agree totally that for someone to call Sister Olivia a munafiq is really outrageous. She definitely doesn’t deserve that and I agree with most of your comment. Our ummah is in bad shape. There is no sugar coating that. We have no izza’ and fear of Allah. The Muslim leadship is pathetic but we can’t blame them either because as Allah says in the Qur’an:
For each one are successive [angels] before and behind him who protect him by the decree of Allah. Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. And when Allah intends for a people ill, there is no repelling it. And there is not for them besides Him any patron. 13:11
Some He has guided: Others have (by their choice) deserved the loss of their way; in that they took the evil ones, in preference to Allah, for their friends and protectors, and think that they receive guidance. 7:30
Coorled38
May 21, 2011 at 4:25 PM
This is merely more proof that man (humans) are barely above the animals we profess to be superior too.
I find it harsh and disgusting the number of men that have found fault with Laura in some fashion or another for her own rape…men are traditionally the rapers of the world…besides raping women you rape men and children as well (and sometimes animals as well as the dead and even inanimate objects at times). Are THEY at fault for the rape you do to them as well? It is NEVER the fault of the rapee for what the rapist does…to find even the most marginal of excuses for such henious actions is an abysmal reflection on your own character and a true indicator of where your flaws lie as a man.
I would hate to be one of your mothers, sisters or daughters that is subject to the disgusting act of rape..and then look to you for some sympathy, solace and understanding…only to find condemnation, judgement and fault.
UmmSarah
May 21, 2011 at 7:37 PM
I concur, though you won’t find any embarrassment in them, none whatsoever… just rhetoric.
Their delusional self tells them they are doing God’s work. Thats plenty evidence for them.
Abu Ayesha
May 21, 2011 at 7:47 PM
”If I had known the Muslims before knowing Islam, I would never have become Muslim.”
The profound words of my late wife, May Allah grant her Jannat Al Firdous. Aameen.
And we wonder why Palestine is still occupied, why Muslim lands are being invaded, why we live under humiliation.
As our beloved Sheikh Nasir Al Albaani, May Allah have mercy upon him, used to say, ”Stop throwing rocks (in reference to the Palestinian youth) and go into your homes and learn your Deen. Then Allah will return to you your I’zzah”.
But of course, we know better than our shyookh so we haven’t throwing rocks, haven’t stopped denying we need tasfiyyah and turbiyyah (purification and education), haven’t stopped blaming our ills on the ”evil” west.
As my teacher Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips used to say, May Allah Protect him, ”The kuffar are doing what they are supposed to do, which is kufr but why aren’t we doing what we are supposed to do?”
I say its because we are too busy doing the kuffar’s job for them.
simple
May 21, 2011 at 8:26 PM
May Allah grant her, you and your entire family Jannat Al Firdous. Aameen.
But, please lets not flow in this emotional river to paint the ‘Muslims’ as bad guys, the media and Hollywood is already doing it for us.
you bet you will do only that when someone barges into your home and throws you out or tries to hurt someone you love or whatever they did to the Palestinians. you bet the sahaba had to do nothing, keep busy in tarbiyyah and tazkiyyah and Allah will automatically send angels to do the work… badr and uhud and hunain must be angels fighting while the sahaba were praying at home, saladin had to ask the Muslims to go and pray and not plan their efforts and Allah returned the izzah of Palestine automatically. Every success comes from Allah, even our daily bread, does not mean we are asked by Allah to sit in prayers all day for Allah to provide us, if Allah wills, He can provide to us without our efforts but the instruction from Allah is to do our material struggle within the boundaries of Islam. Please do not belittle the efforts of the brave kids with stones while sitting on your comfy chairs and typing on your fancy computer.
Those kids too deserve a life of decency and most of them are even below the age of legal accountability in Islam, if we cannot give them a stone to throw, please do not snatch their stone away with a rhetorical statement to belittle their iman or Islam as if we know who has the need for tazkiyyah and tarbiyah, them who are doing their job of defending the Muslim land from kafir occupation or certain Muslims sitting in the west collaborating with the kafir ruler, providing taxes to send more bombs over the heads of innocent Muslims and praising the kafir army as ‘our army’ and kafir rulers as ‘our president’ while belittling the efforts of brave Muslim men women and children.
It is sad to see emotional rhetoric without any thought or Islamic solution to this alleged crime by a mob, when we do not even know who did it. If we had the islamic law, the people would have to think a million times before laying a finger on a woman, and for those people who are pointing fingers that all those countries have islamic law and it does not help- i have a news for you, none of those countries have any elected ruler, nor islamic sha-r-ia law nor islamic ec-onomic system nor islami-c ju-diciary. They are dictators , kings or tyrants ruling by personal whims and desires and fooling the gullible muslims in the name of islam while implementing the plans of their kafir colonial masters leaving no stone unturned to belittle islam and islami-c rul-e or islami-c sys-tem.
Abu Ayesha
May 22, 2011 at 9:30 PM
Emotional rhetoric?
Reread your post akhi and then look up the meaning of irony.
I am not one to belittle the efforts of any Muslim but what you and your bloodthirsty ilk do is belittle the effort of our Salafi fathers, our beloved shyookh. Indeed, you are almost like the Shia in your taqiyaah giving back-handed compliments to Sheikh Al Albaani and Ibn Baz but in reality fostering ill-feelings for them.
I’m sorry, but I’m too old, too ”battle-hardened”, too cynical not to see through your real ”harraki” mentality.
Allah yarhamuhuma, I sat with Sheikh Muqbil and Sheikh Al Albaani on two separate occasions and asked each of them about what should be done about the Palestinian situation and each time I received an answer identical to the one I posted in my original comments.
So the shyookh are misguided but you know better? Allahul Musta’aan!
Akhi, Muslims are in the state they are in due to their ignorance of Tawheed, and its implementation. No amount of breast-beating, ”we are being raped”, ”we are being slaughtered” arguments will change reality.
The vile actions in Eygpt that Sister Olivia writes about in her article are endemic to the juhaal, the ignorance and lack of God’s fear amongst Muslims.
Akhi, lets be honest how many males in your family prayed Fajr in the masjid today? I know none did in mine. So we don’t even have the Eeman to establish salah in the masjid, to establish the mandatory sunnah like the beard and taking care of isbaal and lowering our gaze as we walk the streets and yet we wonder why we are being humiliated?
Lets recognise our faults, lets work together and sincerely and with wisdom to fix them and InshaAllah we shall see the return of our honour and our lands.
Wassalaam
simple
May 22, 2011 at 9:49 PM
Oh my beloved brother. Is your logic in the lines of ‘if you did not pray fajr in the masjid’ don’t do sawm in Ramadan and stop giving Zakah until everyone in your family prays fajr in the masjid?
Ahkam of Allah are obligations upon us all at once and not in an order to be fulfilled. We pray, we fast, we perform Hajj and we give Zakah, we fight, we defend and we trade. If we did not perform Sawm in Ramadan, we do not say, ‘we should not pray until next ramadan we perform the Sawm/fasting’. No, that is not how Islam is neither will you find any Sharaii daleel/evidence to prove your point, that ‘do this, then that will be done automatically’.
You my brother are talking about Tawheed and its ignorance, what is more shirk than esteemed scholars on websites like these promoting concepts of shirk like democracy which gives the ruling authority to a majority of humans to frame laws or election of ‘legislators/hakim’ when Allah has made that position exclusively for Himself, it is part of Tawheed which we conveniently try to hide under the mat because it does not suit the western elite which we are trying to please and invite to ‘Islam’… what Islam, if we ourselves have decayed in our aqeedah and our obligations to the ummah and to ourselves.
Before questioning people’s emaan and their Tawheed, please ask yourself, what is obligatory on a Muslim who is under attack and which daleel to you have to say that, they should go home and ‘learn’ while their homes are being bombed and their mothers assaulted before their eyes? What is the obligation of Allah and does that obligation becomes invalid unless they did not perform some other obligation? If so, what is the daleel?
You think when Saladin Ayyubi liberated Al Quds, the Muslim Ummah was 100% angels so he thought it should be liberated finally? Were they not divided and corrupted and had to be reminded of this obligation which comes from the same Islam which gives us other obligations and why is it that we convert our deen into rituals and forget the other obligation of Allah SWT upon us as Muslims?
Subhanallah, it is amazing the kind of solution you prescribe for the problem of Palestine! Neither has its basis in the Quran, Ahadith nor the Seerah of the Prophet SAWS nor the lives of the Salaf Us-Saliheen of this glorious ummah. Our obligations are concurrently valid upon us and one obligation does not become invalid because some of our community is not fulfilling their individual obligations. Liberation of Muslim lands is collective obligation upon this ummah and if you are waiting for a time when the ummah will be composed of angels, I am sorry but that never happened (evident from the crimes and punishments implemented in Madinah during the time of Prophet Mohammed SAWS) If there was a time when society would be perfect, it would be under RasulAllah SAWS, yet we found reports of zina, theft and murders and that is how we know the way of applying the punishments for those crimes as evident from Ahadith. The prophet SAWS did not suspend other obligations of defending land and justice until 100% population becomes angels… that concept is not from Islamic daleel and sit and wait is not the Muslim method from Islam rather it is a nice way to retain the status quo and spiral into further corruption and misery.
You tell me my brother I asked you a simple question… which I shall ask again.
“You bet you will do only prayer and dhikr when someone barges into your home and throws you out or tries to hurt someone you love or whatever they did to the Palestinians?”
So, you better answer those questions and see how the world looks when you are in their shoes and what Islam obliges you to do in times they are in, and please give some Sharaii daleel for your opinions of why they should not fight rather surrender their lands to the kafir army.
Abu Ayesha
May 23, 2011 at 9:29 PM
My brother, I was going to respond but surely the words of a student of knowledge are better than a jaahil like me?
So I urge you to read ”Hindsight is 20-20” by Abu Ammar Yasir Qadhi.
This will be my last comment on this thread.
May Allah guide you and I. Aameen
Muddassir
May 21, 2011 at 8:17 PM
It is ironic that at the same time that this article was written another series of articles are appearing on muslimmatters “The Best of Stories: Pearls from Surah Yusuf”. Time to remember the story of Prophet Yusuf (alaihisalam), another youth from egypt who controlled his desires. His story is a profound lesson to us.
ulya
May 21, 2011 at 9:59 PM
asalam o alaykum!
I want to go a little off the heated debate thats going on here.
Most of the comments here are very, very disappointing because of the way most of the people are disagreeing with each other.
From the time of the death of the Prophet (saw) when Umar (RA) was convinced based on his interpretation of something that the Prophet (saw) could not die, there have been differences. Did Abu Bakar (RA) come out and say any of the following to him (i am taking the liberty of copying some of the things people said in the above comments):
“I hope you realize the silliness in this.”
“The ignorance of that statement floors me. Thank God the Prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) is our example, and not people like you!”
“I don’t know who you are but after reading your comments , I can certainly say that you lack knowledge and live in the world of illusions .”
“That is the most insanely crazy and ignorant post I think I have ever read.”
“You should stay home and never leave and while you’re at it keep your mouth shut.”
“People like you have no honour to speak from behind a screen without any manners. We will see your face on the Day of Judgement.”
“What kind of perverted reasoning do you people have that you can seriously criticize someone for condemning rape??”
“Didn’t expect the glib statement from you. Write about all these incidents, who’s stopping you?”
“Many of you on here are doing exactly what the article mentions: deflecting and excusing. It’s pathetic.”
Again, read the incident of Ba’ir Ma’oonah in the seerah, then return and comment.
Siraaj
May 22, 2011 at 12:42 AM
Salaam alaykum Ulya,
Jzk for reminding us all to have better manners in our discussion. I see some quotes from myself in there, and though I intended no ill will, I can see how it can be taken as harsh, and I will work to correct my own mistakes and will pass your feedback to my wife as well insha’Allah.
Siraaj
ulya
May 22, 2011 at 1:27 PM
Brother Siraaj, i by no means can ever judge your intention. The effort, you, your wife, and all MM staffers put into this site is commendable and its a blessing really for a lot of people including myself. Jzk
Thank you for not taking offense! May Allah bless us all with better manners!
Deenul Islam-deen of truth, justice and mercy
May 22, 2011 at 6:39 PM
JazakAllah Khair ulya! :)
May AllahSWT bless you and grant you and me and all our brothers and sisters best akhlaaq!
And say to My slaves , that they should (only) say those words that are the best. (Because) Shaitan (Satan) verily, sows disagreements among them. Surely, Shaitan (Satan) is to man a plain enemy 17:53
ulya
May 21, 2011 at 10:15 PM
Did he (RA) say any of the following to Umar (RA) of the likes of it? NO, he did not!
These comments are very embarassing and disappointing. Think about it, how would a non-muslim visiting this page feel about all of us, about both sets of people, the ones who want to apologize and the ones who don’t want to.
We have to realize that sometime its best not to keep pressing our point and to make sure out point is proven.
Also, not everything is black and white, different people think differently, and interpret the same situation differently. We have to learn to be more tolerant of our brothers when they don’t have the same point of view as yours!
And lastly, my intention was not to offend anyone. Or to attack anyone personally. I just copied the statements because it would have conveyed the point better. Please excuse me for that.
Apricot
May 22, 2011 at 4:09 AM
The comments here are shameful and convince me that we do need to issue an apology…to Sr. Olivia, first of all, for being so rude.
A couple of years ago, a German tourist was stabbed in Jordan, where violence against foreigners is extremely rare. The Jordanian government paid for all of the man’s hospital bills and invited him back a year later for an expense-paid vacation to make up for what had happened during his first visit. I know of no other country in which this would happen as tourists usually travel at their own risk. Jordan apologized to this man because he was a guest in this country. Similarly Lara Logan was a guest in a Muslim country, and she was abused. This alone is reason enough to apologize. She was our guest even if we ourselves do not live in Egypt. I am bewildered that people cannot understand this.
Many people probably do not understand the great danger ALL journalists (male and female) were in during the protests. CNN’s Anderson Cooper and many others were attacked because they were filming something the Egyptian government did not want broadcast around the world. Al-Jazeera was shut down, and all journalists were subject to arrest. Female journalists are essential to covering such stories in the Muslim world because they are generally the only ones who can get access to and speak to women for their side of the story. They also have liberties that may not be granted to male journalists. Lara Logan and other journalists were there to get the truth out to the world, but many people did not want them there. I do not know who attacked Lara Logan, but I would not be surprised if they were pro-Mubarak forces who have, in the past, used the same techniques against Egyptian women to keep them away from the protests. This is a very well-documented phenomena.
Women and children came out in droves to the protests. This was essential to the success of the revolution because it showed that ALL of society was there in support of the demonstrations. This was a people’s revolution and not just some young men with angst who wanted their voices heard. Men deliberately came with their wives, sisters and mothers to make this point. No one could deny that this was the will of the Egyptian people as a whole.
Bushra
May 22, 2011 at 4:23 PM
Assalamualaikum
Alhamdulillah this was a good article, and I REALLY want to share this, but I can’t, because I know that instead of understanding the actual topic of discussion mentioned in the article, others (like me) would instead waste their time reading the comments and trying to make sense out of them.
I’m not blaming the moderators. Masha’allah they’re very efficient in moderating the comments, and it’s not a piece of cake to handle such a large forum. But for the benefit of the readers (especially those who we’d like to see interested in Islam and not be repulsed by some comments) please remove the comments, or if possible create another link where the comments are separate from the article.
Jazak’allahu khair
Rosemary
May 24, 2011 at 3:17 PM
Sorry, Bushra but I respectfully disagree with you dear. Though a lot of the comments are despicable it is important that those the MM moderators felt were appropriate remain with this article. The comments from Muslims themselves speak volumes of the very problems Olivia addressed above; sweeping the ugly statements under the rug would only contribute to these problems. Open forums are wonderful tools for expression and seeking knowledge. It should not concern you who may be turned away from accepting Islam rather I would think your concern should be with those already a part of it. People (both Muslims and non-Muslims) need to see that Muslims don’t always have it figured out (like some claim) and that they’re struggling through this life just like the rest of the world. It shows their humanity and no matter what any of us believe at the end of the day we are all humans faced with the same ultimate realities of life. We are in God’s (Allah’s) hands and he will see us through.
I am new to this site and am very much intrigued at what I see here, thank you.
Carlos
May 25, 2011 at 7:46 PM
Some commenters have referred to rapes allegedly committed by American soldiers against Muslim women, but have not given specific cases. I have only read of one such incident, the Mahmudihya killings in Iraq, on March 12, 2006, where a 14-year-old girl was raped, and she and her family were murdered (a truly awful incident). It is my understanding that two American soldiers were convicted for that incident, and three others pled guilty. Can someone please give me some specifics (dates, locations, names) on other alleged rapes of Muslim women or girls committed by American soldiers?
simple
May 28, 2011 at 9:44 AM
Buddy, how much do you wanna be spoon-fed, do some homework, if you need help please contact your federal agencies for a list of rapes by soldiers reported by them and contact some NGOs working in war zones for a humungous list of names, dates, photos perhaps and testimonies of those incidents unreported and whitewashed in records. You are a smart guy, I know you can dig some information yourself. Oh dude, US Army has a history of rape and assault against its OWN Female army officers, forget about the civilians they are sent to butcher! Thanks for your concern.
simple
May 28, 2011 at 9:40 AM
Are protests in Muslim lands and protests in western countries comparable and do we even understand the situation in which these protests occur and the environment while these crowded protests happen. This is a different perspective about the Egyptian protests compared with other protests in other parts of the world > Humanity Vs. Brutality
Abu Ayyoob
June 8, 2011 at 9:22 AM
As Salaamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatahu
I have not been able to read all the comments due to the sheer magnitude.
Let me start by saying this is an abhorrent crime that should never have happened. Moreover, there is some truth to the fact that had Lara Logan been covered like a muslim, she would likely not have been assaulted (still doesn’t excuse the crime).
I am going to stay away from the religious arguments for Islamic state etc. though I will mention one thing with regard to the scholars – they do not talk about revolting against Gaddafi, Mubarak etc. but now during the revolt they support it. This is not so much to do with western backing inshAllah as much as it is to do with the scholars not INCITING a revolt. However when someone else incites a revolt and it seems he will bring justice and bring together the people, THEN the scholars support him in his cause.
The two things from the interview seem to be the major problem in my eyes –
1. The crowd turning into a frenzy when supposedly someone called her an Israeli and a jew. This is something else I have noticed (especially among arabs) is that some of them do tend to have anti-semitic and anti-israeli feelings. I myself am against the state of Israel as an occupied state, especially with their ghastly persecution of the Palestinians, but that does not mean that if I see an Israeli on the street, I attack them. Same goes for Jews. If anything, I would treat them with justice (after all that is what Allah commands us to do). Justifying this attack by attacks on muslims is no excuse(not unless those criticizing western ideas of democracy and liberalism are actually its strongest proponents). We are not those who stoop to the levels of zhaalims nor do we punish one for the crimes of another. (Also the problem of arabs jumping on the idea of all white people being “Western imperialists” and other sorts of racism is an issue best discussed elsewhere)
2. This is the issue that I did not find addressed in the posts I read and I want to raise this issue. It is the issue of immodesty being propagated through television. In fact the shameless thing is that even in North American television, they have a short notice mentioning that “the following program contains … Viewer discretion is advised” which is better that what I can say for television anywhere around the world (considering only the countries I have been to). There is a great need for strict moderation of our television, not just by families but by an external committee. All this immodesty propagated through television seeps into our subconscious and builds like a pressure cooker until it is released through some despicable act. I have yet to see/hear a single scholar call the television haraam, yet in most countries I have not seen anything but haraam on tv except for a few channels. In fact, incidents of rape (by non-relatives) have usually been in cases where sexual pressure is either derived from the aspects of culture (ghetto neighborhoods) or through mediums such as tv and cinema.
Finally as I would end, I will say that though these issues remain underexposed, it is also that these issues are uncommon as well.
P.S. I understand some of you may wish to criticize my comments, but please keep it civil and mature.
PM
January 26, 2013 at 2:35 AM
If anyone wonders why Western people (I am reticent about calling Westerners Christians, as most are not) struggle to see the good that it is in Islam, look no further than the comments such as provided by some of the above. My mother used to say, “Two wrongs don’t make a right.” Equally 1000 wrongs never justify another wrong. Let’s call it for what it was – inexcusable, particularly on the part of those who call on the name of Allah. After reading these disgustingly misogenous statements using poorly applied verses from the Quran, I can imagine Westerners thinking, “Now let’s see, my choices are: burn in hell or spend eternity with a bunch of self-righteous bigots. Hmmmmmmmmm!!!! How long have I got to answer?”