Comments on: The Theological Implications of the Story of Ibrahim & the Stars (Ibn Taymiyyah vs the Mutakallimun) | Yasir Qadhi http://muslimmatters.org/2009/07/27/the-theological-implications-of-the-story-of-ibrahim-the-stars-between-ibn-taymiyyah-the-mutakallimun-yasir-qadhi/ Discourses in the Intellectual Traditions, Political Situation, and Social Ethics of Muslim Life Thu, 24 May 2012 01:29:00 +0000 hourly 1 By: zaki hammaad http://muslimmatters.org/2009/07/27/the-theological-implications-of-the-story-of-ibrahim-the-stars-between-ibn-taymiyyah-the-mutakallimun-yasir-qadhi/#comment-47772 zaki hammaad Thu, 13 Aug 2009 10:50:50 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/?p=6513#comment-47772 The Ash’airah are the followers of Abul-Hasan ‘Alee bin Ismaa’eel Al-Ash’aree. At first, he inclined towards the views of the Mu’tazilah sect, until he reached forty years of age. Then he openly announced his repentance from that to the public and exposed the falsehood of the Mu’tazilah. So he took hold of the methodology of the Ahl-us-Sunnah, may Allaah have mercy on him. As for those who attribute themselves to him, they remained upon a specific methodology (like the Saalimah sect whose views consist of tashbeeh), which is known as the Ash’ariyyah sect. They do not confirm any of Allaah’s attributes, except seven, which they believe are proven by intellect. And they distort the meaning of the rest of them. The seven (they affirm) are the ones mentioned in this verse: “He is Living, Knowing, Able and has Speech Desire, and likewise Hearing and Seeing” - They also commit other innovations with regard to the meaning of Speech, Al-Qadar and other than that. The Creed of Abu Hasan al-Ash'aree in the Latter Part of His Life: http://tinyurl.com/l847ab Here's the comprehensive website again: http://www.asharis.com It clearly stands on its own merit and all references are fully provided for one's own pursual. The Ash’airah are the followers of Abul-Hasan ‘Alee bin Ismaa’eel Al-Ash’aree. At first, he inclined towards the views of the Mu’tazilah sect, until he reached forty years of age. Then he openly announced his repentance from that to the public and exposed the falsehood of the Mu’tazilah. So he took hold of the methodology of the Ahl-us-Sunnah, may Allaah have mercy on him.

As for those who attribute themselves to him, they remained upon a specific methodology (like the Saalimah sect whose views consist of tashbeeh), which is known as the Ash’ariyyah sect. They do not confirm any of Allaah’s attributes, except seven, which they believe are proven by intellect. And they distort the meaning of the rest of them. The seven (they affirm) are the ones mentioned in this verse: “He is Living, Knowing, Able and has Speech Desire, and likewise Hearing and Seeing” – They also commit other innovations with regard to the meaning of Speech, Al-Qadar and other than that.

The Creed of Abu Hasan al-Ash’aree in the Latter Part of His Life: http://tinyurl.com/l847ab

Here’s the comprehensive website again: http://www.asharis.com

It clearly stands on its own merit and all references are fully provided for one’s own pursual.

]]> By: Amad http://muslimmatters.org/2009/07/27/the-theological-implications-of-the-story-of-ibrahim-the-stars-between-ibn-taymiyyah-the-mutakallimun-yasir-qadhi/#comment-47767 Amad Thu, 13 Aug 2009 07:25:43 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/?p=6513#comment-47767 May Allah return the unjustified takfeer to every "scholar" who made it, and keep Shaykh ul Islam free of all the lies spread by his enemies. These enemies and liars are only raising the Shaykh's rank and level in Jannah. It is one thing to not accept his title of shaykh ul Islam due to theological differences, it is quite another to make takfeer. I only know of ahbaash and the extreme among the sufi asharis who do this, & that is sufficient for the layman to know and avoid such extreme personalities. Btw, you can keep calling yourself "sunni muslim", implying exclusion of others from ahlsunnah, but words and names don't really mean anything, so enough of grandstanding. May Allah return the unjustified takfeer to every “scholar” who made it, and keep Shaykh ul Islam free of all the lies spread by his enemies. These enemies and liars are only raising the Shaykh’s rank and level in Jannah.

It is one thing to not accept his title of shaykh ul Islam due to theological differences, it is quite another to make takfeer. I only know of ahbaash and the extreme among the sufi asharis who do this, & that is sufficient for the layman to know and avoid such extreme personalities.

Btw, you can keep calling yourself “sunni muslim”, implying exclusion of others from ahlsunnah, but words and names don’t really mean anything, so enough of grandstanding.

]]> By: Sunni Muslim http://muslimmatters.org/2009/07/27/the-theological-implications-of-the-story-of-ibrahim-the-stars-between-ibn-taymiyyah-the-mutakallimun-yasir-qadhi/#comment-47766 Sunni Muslim Thu, 13 Aug 2009 07:11:03 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/?p=6513#comment-47766 <blockquote> I thought that only deviant ahbaash, were so bold and reckless to attack shaykh ul islaam</blockquote> since the man spread his misguided heresies, there <strong>always</strong> have been scholars who have made takfeer of him, its not just the modern day ahbash ... the SUNNI opinions on him (not counting any contemporaries, specially the ahbash), throughout history have ranged from: 1) he was a misguided mubtadi who dissented from the ways of the Ahlus Sunnah (including his supposedly professed madhab of Imam Ahmad rahimahullah) on both usul and furoo3 2) he was a kafir 3) he was intellectually challenged to comprehend knowledge (Imam Subki's quote: his knowledge exceeded his intelligence) 4) one/more of the above, but repented and became a Sunni before he died. What the man actually was at the time of his death, is just history. He has died and Allah knows the state of his death best. The important thing is that the concepts espoused in his books that we have in our midst, are pure and absolute misguidances. There is no ikhtilaf of the Ahlus Sunnah on this bit. Most Sunnis don't call him "sheikhul islam" regardless even if they do not consider him a kafir, because of the heresies contained in his books. The only Sunni people who call him "sheikhul islam" are those who either believe that he repented and became a Sunni or politicians who are sold out and do not have integrity. For what its worth, the latter are neither Sunnis nor wahabis nor shia.

I thought that only deviant ahbaash, were so bold and reckless to attack shaykh ul islaam

since the man spread his misguided heresies, there always have been scholars who have made takfeer of him, its not just the modern day ahbash … the SUNNI opinions on him (not counting any contemporaries, specially the ahbash), throughout history have ranged from:

1) he was a misguided mubtadi who dissented from the ways of the Ahlus Sunnah (including his supposedly professed madhab of Imam Ahmad rahimahullah) on both usul and furoo3
2) he was a kafir
3) he was intellectually challenged to comprehend knowledge (Imam Subki’s quote: his knowledge exceeded his intelligence)
4) one/more of the above, but repented and became a Sunni before he died.

What the man actually was at the time of his death, is just history. He has died and Allah knows the state of his death best.

The important thing is that the concepts espoused in his books that we have in our midst, are pure and absolute misguidances. There is no ikhtilaf of the Ahlus Sunnah on this bit.

Most Sunnis don’t call him “sheikhul islam” regardless even if they do not consider him a kafir, because of the heresies contained in his books. The only Sunni people who call him “sheikhul islam” are those who either believe that he repented and became a Sunni or politicians who are sold out and do not have integrity. For what its worth, the latter are neither Sunnis nor wahabis nor shia.

]]> By: dawud farquhar http://muslimmatters.org/2009/07/27/the-theological-implications-of-the-story-of-ibrahim-the-stars-between-ibn-taymiyyah-the-mutakallimun-yasir-qadhi/#comment-47706 dawud farquhar Tue, 11 Aug 2009 01:31:24 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/?p=6513#comment-47706 Signs of Allah’s Existence. “O mankind! Worship your Lord (Allah), Who created you and those who were before you so that you may acquire taqwa (piety). Who has made the earth a resting place for you, and the sky as a canopy, and sent down water (rain) from the sky and brought forth therewith fruits as a provision for you. Then do not set up rivals unto Allah (in worship) while you know (that He alone has the right to be worshipped.” Qur’an, 2:21-22 Several scholars of Tafsir, like Ar-Razi and others, used this Ayat (verse) as an argument for the existence of the Creator, and it is a most worthy method of argument. Indeed, whoever ponders over the things that exist, the higher and lower creatures, their various shapes, colors, behavior, benefits and ecological roles, then he will realize the ability, wisdom, knowledge, perfection and majesty of the Creator. Once a Bedouin was asked about the evidence to Allah’s existence, he responded: “All praise is due to Allah! The camel’s dung testifies to the existence of the camel, and the track testifies to the fact that someone was walking. A sky that holds the giant stars, a land that has fairways and a sea that has waves, does not all of this testify that the Most Kind, Most Knowledgeable exists?” [Ar-Razi 2:91] Hence, whoever gazes at the sky in its immensity, its expanse, and the various kinds of planets in it, some of which appear stationary in the sky – whoever gazes at the seas that surround the land from all sides, and the mountains that were placed on the earth to stabilize it, so that whoever lives on land, whatever their shape and color, are able to live and thrive – whoever reads Allah’s statement: “And among the mountains are streaks white and red, of varying colours and (others) very black. And likewise, men and ad-Dawwabb (moving, living creatures, beasts) and cattle are of various colours. It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah.” (35:27-28) Whoever thinks about the running rivers that travel from area to area bringing benefit, whoever ponders over what Allah has created on earth; various animals and plants of different tastes, scents, shapes and colors that are a result of unity between land and water, whoever thinks about all of this then he will realize that these facts testify to the existence of the Creator, His perfect ability, wisdom, mercy, kindness, generosity and His overall compassion for His creation. There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah, nor is there a Lord besides Him, upon Him we rely and to Him we turn in repentance. There are numerous Ayat in the Qur’an on this subject. On the issue of sifat, a lot has already been said and some excellent quotes and links given. On a sidenote, please read the excellent book of Imam Muwaffiq Ibn Qudamah 'Lum'atul I'tiqaad Haadi Ilas Sabilar Rashaad' (now translated) and can be found at: tinyurl.com/mam68p Pages 5-8 are relevant to that discussion. Signs of Allah’s Existence.

“O mankind! Worship your Lord (Allah), Who created you and those who were before you so that you may acquire taqwa (piety).

Who has made the earth a resting place for you, and the sky as a canopy, and sent down water (rain) from the sky and brought forth therewith fruits as a provision for you. Then do not set up rivals unto Allah (in worship) while you know (that He alone has the right to be worshipped.” Qur’an, 2:21-22

Several scholars of Tafsir, like Ar-Razi and others, used this Ayat (verse) as an argument for the existence of the Creator, and it is a most worthy method of argument. Indeed, whoever ponders over the things that exist, the higher and lower creatures, their various shapes, colors, behavior, benefits and ecological roles, then he will realize the ability, wisdom, knowledge, perfection and majesty of the Creator. Once a Bedouin was asked about the evidence to Allah’s existence, he responded: “All praise is due to Allah! The camel’s dung testifies to the existence of the camel, and the track testifies to the fact that someone was walking. A sky that holds the giant stars, a land that has fairways and a sea that has waves, does not all of this testify that the Most Kind, Most Knowledgeable exists?” [Ar-Razi 2:91]

Hence, whoever gazes at the sky in its immensity, its expanse, and the various kinds of planets in it, some of which appear stationary in the sky – whoever gazes at the seas that surround the land from all sides, and the mountains that were placed on the earth to stabilize it, so that whoever lives on land, whatever their shape and color, are able to live and thrive – whoever reads Allah’s statement:

“And among the mountains are streaks white and red, of varying colours and (others) very black. And likewise, men and ad-Dawwabb (moving, living creatures, beasts) and cattle are of various colours. It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah.” (35:27-28)

Whoever thinks about the running rivers that travel from area to area bringing benefit, whoever ponders over what Allah has created on earth; various animals and plants of different tastes, scents, shapes and colors that are a result of unity between land and water, whoever thinks about all of this then he will realize that these facts testify to the existence of the Creator, His perfect ability, wisdom, mercy, kindness, generosity and His overall compassion for His creation. There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah, nor is there a Lord besides Him, upon Him we rely and to Him we turn in repentance. There are numerous Ayat in the Qur’an on this subject.

On the issue of sifat, a lot has already been said and some excellent quotes and links given. On a sidenote, please read the excellent book of Imam Muwaffiq Ibn Qudamah ‘Lum’atul I’tiqaad Haadi Ilas Sabilar Rashaad’ (now translated) and can be found at: tinyurl.com/mam68p

Pages 5-8 are relevant to that discussion.

]]> By: Qas http://muslimmatters.org/2009/07/27/the-theological-implications-of-the-story-of-ibrahim-the-stars-between-ibn-taymiyyah-the-mutakallimun-yasir-qadhi/#comment-47692 Qas Mon, 10 Aug 2009 17:50:57 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/?p=6513#comment-47692 lol Amad, zaki will huff and puff and bllllloooooowwwww your house down. lol

Amad, zaki will huff and puff and bllllloooooowwwww your house down.

]]> By: Amad http://muslimmatters.org/2009/07/27/the-theological-implications-of-the-story-of-ibrahim-the-stars-between-ibn-taymiyyah-the-mutakallimun-yasir-qadhi/#comment-47690 Amad Mon, 10 Aug 2009 17:31:07 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/?p=6513#comment-47690 Zaki, who are you replying to? IF you are replying to me (and your comment wasn't misplaced in the thread), then careful reread my comment again. It seems that you are new on MM... get to "know" people before jumping at them. Zaki, who are you replying to?

IF you are replying to me (and your comment wasn’t misplaced in the thread), then careful reread my comment again. It seems that you are new on MM… get to “know” people before jumping at them.

]]> By: zaki hammaad http://muslimmatters.org/2009/07/27/the-theological-implications-of-the-story-of-ibrahim-the-stars-between-ibn-taymiyyah-the-mutakallimun-yasir-qadhi/#comment-47681 zaki hammaad Mon, 10 Aug 2009 14:15:45 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/?p=6513#comment-47681 Since you pretty much ignored to comment on the rest of my post, I will assume you are one of those asharis who endorse intellectual theology and philosophy (like your heroes that you mentioned), yet fail to hold a direct dialogue concerning the issues in question. If you are goading me into a personality sling-match by mentioning your 'respected' personalities then I will do no such thing as the duo you mentioned have already been judged on their own brand of sufi/ashari philosophy. The bottom line is that you are bankrupt to even quote a single 'concensualised' statement from the salaf of the first 300 years who hold the wicked and mutazili like beliefs of the contemporary asharis re: the correct understanding of Allah's Attributes. Read through my post again carefully and if you feel up to the challenge, I will be waiting for your response. Otherwise, I sincerely advise you to get on top of your research and spend time in things that will benefit you (i.e. rectifying your aqeedah); as Imam Malik said: "nothing will rectify the latter part of this ummah, except that which rectified it at the beginning - This clearly also includes aqeedah first and foremost. Since you pretty much ignored to comment on the rest of my post, I will assume you are one of those asharis who endorse intellectual theology and philosophy (like your heroes that you mentioned), yet fail to hold a direct dialogue concerning the issues in question.

If you are goading me into a personality sling-match by mentioning your ‘respected’ personalities then I will do no such thing as the duo you mentioned have already been judged on their own brand of sufi/ashari philosophy.

The bottom line is that you are bankrupt to even quote a single ‘concensualised’ statement from the salaf of the first 300 years who hold the wicked and mutazili like beliefs of the contemporary asharis re: the correct understanding of Allah’s Attributes. Read through my post again carefully and if you feel up to the challenge, I will be waiting for your response. Otherwise, I sincerely advise you to get on top of your research and spend time in things that will benefit you (i.e. rectifying your aqeedah); as Imam Malik said: “nothing will rectify the latter part of this ummah, except that which rectified it at the beginning – This clearly also includes aqeedah first and foremost.

]]> By: Ibn Mikdad http://muslimmatters.org/2009/07/27/the-theological-implications-of-the-story-of-ibrahim-the-stars-between-ibn-taymiyyah-the-mutakallimun-yasir-qadhi/#comment-47677 Ibn Mikdad Mon, 10 Aug 2009 12:11:13 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/?p=6513#comment-47677 Assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu, Well said Zaki, may Allah s.w.t reward you and guide us all to the truth and that which is best for us, ameen. Wassalaam. Assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu,

Well said Zaki, may Allah s.w.t reward you and guide us all to the truth and that which is best for us, ameen.

Wassalaam.

]]> By: Amad http://muslimmatters.org/2009/07/27/the-theological-implications-of-the-story-of-ibrahim-the-stars-between-ibn-taymiyyah-the-mutakallimun-yasir-qadhi/#comment-47676 Amad Mon, 10 Aug 2009 12:04:57 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/?p=6513#comment-47676 Interesting site Zaki. I was surprised to see that someone who claims to provide "sunnianswers", i.e. Abu Adam Naruiji makes <a href="http://www.asharis.com/creed/articles/jqphd-outing-abu-adam-naruiji-as-a-deceiving-and-surmising-counterfeit-pretender.cfm" rel="nofollow">open takfeer of Ibn Taymiyyah rh</a>... I thought that only deviant ahbaash, were so bold and reckless to attack shaykh ul islaam. Or is this person a hidden implant of the ahbaash too? I hope that this sort of takfeeri attitude is sufficient for most sunnis to stay away from him. I have full faith that people who genuinely adhere to moderate ashari beliefs like Hamza Yusuf, Zaid Shakir, etc. will never accept such extremists in their midst. These "pdf refuters" and haters need to be cleaned "out", just like the clean-house that occurred (and continues to be occurring) among those who claim to the fold of ahl-hadith. The more they are given importance, the more they will poison the discourse. Interesting site Zaki.
I was surprised to see that someone who claims to provide “sunnianswers”, i.e. Abu Adam Naruiji makes open takfeer of Ibn Taymiyyah rh… I thought that only deviant ahbaash, were so bold and reckless to attack shaykh ul islaam. Or is this person a hidden implant of the ahbaash too?

I hope that this sort of takfeeri attitude is sufficient for most sunnis to stay away from him. I have full faith that people who genuinely adhere to moderate ashari beliefs like Hamza Yusuf, Zaid Shakir, etc. will never accept such extremists in their midst. These “pdf refuters” and haters need to be cleaned “out”, just like the clean-house that occurred (and continues to be occurring) among those who claim to the fold of ahl-hadith. The more they are given importance, the more they will poison the discourse.

]]> By: zaki hammaad http://muslimmatters.org/2009/07/27/the-theological-implications-of-the-story-of-ibrahim-the-stars-between-ibn-taymiyyah-the-mutakallimun-yasir-qadhi/#comment-47674 zaki hammaad Mon, 10 Aug 2009 11:14:09 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/?p=6513#comment-47674 As far as history is concerned, Ahlul Hadeeth (people of the Prophet's narrations) go back before Hijrah and they remain the only maslaq/jama'ah that walk the 'sunni' talk and adhere in letter and spirit to the beliefs and ways of the earliest Muslims. No one diverted from this original path except they become misguided. The fitnah of the Mu'tazilah occured in a manner which the asharis of today would like us to accept. The Mu'tazili kufr resulted from their refusal to accept the established athar in regards to aqeedah. They put their aql over the athar and became stubborn in that. I know of NO sunni grouping (amongst whom the ahlul hadeeth are the foremost) who are mujjasimah or promote anthropomorphism. This is simply not true and it has been clearly proven these charges are simply designs of the enemies of the Sunnah against those who are a thorn on their sides. And history bears witness to this! Just because the asharis are not competent to understand this aspect of sunni doctrine does not justify them to change and re-interpet it. No wonder so many accuse them of fundamental deviation and it is not hard to see why: www.asharis.com/creed If the asharis want to monopolise sunni aqeedah, then they need to bring definitive and clear evidence from the Quran and Sunnah and Ijma of the Salaf to prove their creedal viewpoints. Al Hamdulillah, the Ahlul Hadeeth have surpassed them in knowledge and strict adherence to all three. As far as history is concerned, Ahlul Hadeeth (people of the Prophet’s narrations) go back before Hijrah and they remain the only maslaq/jama’ah that walk the ‘sunni’ talk and adhere in letter and spirit to the beliefs and ways of the earliest Muslims. No one diverted from this original path except they become misguided.

The fitnah of the Mu’tazilah occured in a manner which the asharis of today would like us to accept. The Mu’tazili kufr resulted from their refusal to accept the established athar in regards to aqeedah. They put their aql over the athar and became stubborn in that.

I know of NO sunni grouping (amongst whom the ahlul hadeeth are the foremost) who are mujjasimah or promote anthropomorphism. This is simply not true and it has been clearly proven these charges are simply designs of the enemies of the Sunnah against those who are a thorn on their sides. And history bears witness to this!

Just because the asharis are not competent to understand this aspect of sunni doctrine does not justify them to change and re-interpet it. No wonder so many accuse them of fundamental deviation and it is not hard to see why: http://www.asharis.com/creed

If the asharis want to monopolise sunni aqeedah, then they need to bring definitive and clear evidence from the Quran and Sunnah and Ijma of the Salaf to prove their creedal viewpoints. Al Hamdulillah, the Ahlul Hadeeth have surpassed them in knowledge and strict adherence to all three.

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