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	<title>Comments on: Open Thread Sunday 7-6-08</title>
	<atom:link href="http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/</link>
	<description>Discourses in the Intellectual Traditions, Political Situation, and Social Ethics of Muslim Life</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 09:02:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Ramon</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-58357</link>
		<dc:creator>Ramon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I have read some of the articles you posted, it seems quite interesting.
http://www.fethullahgulenforum.org/ 
is also a very good website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have read some of the articles you posted, it seems quite interesting.<br />
<a href="http://www.fethullahgulenforum.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.fethullahgulenforum.org/</a><br />
is also a very good website.</p>
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		<title>By: Dawud Israel</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-22568</link>
		<dc:creator>Dawud Israel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If you make people think they are thinking, they will love you for it. If you make them really think, than they will hate you for it.
-Marquis 

:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you make people think they are thinking, they will love you for it. If you make them really think, than they will hate you for it.<br />
-Marquis </p>
<p>:)</p>
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		<title>By: Sharif</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-22423</link>
		<dc:creator>Sharif</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080709/...r/obama_family

In this article, &quot;Obama says kids won&#039;t be doing any more interviews&quot;, I found this paragraph to be quite interesting from an Islamic point of view:

&lt;blockquote&gt;In the &quot;Access Hollywood&quot; interview, Malia said she sometimes finds her father embarrassing, such as when he shook a friend&#039;s hand instead of waving to her or saying hi. Asked what makes their parents angry, Sasha said whining and Malia cited arguing with each other.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Subhanallah, I am always amazed when I hear small children say such things. This is proof of the fitrah that Allah has created each of us with, that unfortunately becomes distorted by outside influences as we age...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080709/...r/obama_family" rel="nofollow">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080709/&#8230;r/obama_family</a></p>
<p>In this article, &#8220;Obama says kids won&#8217;t be doing any more interviews&#8221;, I found this paragraph to be quite interesting from an Islamic point of view:</p>
<blockquote><p>In the &#8220;Access Hollywood&#8221; interview, Malia said she sometimes finds her father embarrassing, such as when he shook a friend&#8217;s hand instead of waving to her or saying hi. Asked what makes their parents angry, Sasha said whining and Malia cited arguing with each other.</p></blockquote>
<p>Subhanallah, I am always amazed when I hear small children say such things. This is proof of the fitrah that Allah has created each of us with, that unfortunately becomes distorted by outside influences as we age&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ibnkhalil</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-22354</link>
		<dc:creator>Ibnkhalil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:27:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-22354</guid>
		<description>Br. Dawud I strongly disagree with what you said.

Falsehood stands clear from the truth. It is our duty to find what is true or not. Your comments seem to imply that the Sufis are the masters of Tazkiyyah. Tazkiyyah an Nafs is very important to Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama&#039;ah.

On another note if you go to
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/2005/MR1716.pdf
you will see that this author is of the opinion that in order to make Islam compatible with the Western ideology of democracy, human rights etc. the West should promote Sufism. I wonder why they want a Sufi culture? (She happens to be the wife of Zhalmay Khalilzad).

It takes away all important aspects of the Deen which infact are drivers for Tazkiya. 

In a society where dancing is allowed music creeps in and makes people confused. I request you to name one Sufi tareeqa...oh wait a minute did I say tareeqah? Hmm why a tareeqah? I wanna jion all the tareeqas and recieve purification of the soul! Singing, dancing are not purification of the soul which is endorsed by Sufi scholars who have ijazahs and are very well known.
Wallah u alam</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Br. Dawud I strongly disagree with what you said.</p>
<p>Falsehood stands clear from the truth. It is our duty to find what is true or not. Your comments seem to imply that the Sufis are the masters of Tazkiyyah. Tazkiyyah an Nafs is very important to Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama&#8217;ah.</p>
<p>On another note if you go to<br />
<a href="http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/2005/MR1716.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/2005/MR1716.pdf</a><br />
you will see that this author is of the opinion that in order to make Islam compatible with the Western ideology of democracy, human rights etc. the West should promote Sufism. I wonder why they want a Sufi culture? (She happens to be the wife of Zhalmay Khalilzad).</p>
<p>It takes away all important aspects of the Deen which infact are drivers for Tazkiya. </p>
<p>In a society where dancing is allowed music creeps in and makes people confused. I request you to name one Sufi tareeqa&#8230;oh wait a minute did I say tareeqah? Hmm why a tareeqah? I wanna jion all the tareeqas and recieve purification of the soul! Singing, dancing are not purification of the soul which is endorsed by Sufi scholars who have ijazahs and are very well known.<br />
Wallah u alam</p>
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		<title>By: ibnabeeomar</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-22346</link>
		<dc:creator>ibnabeeomar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>jazakallahu khayr for the info, i will look out on your blog for that then inshallah :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jazakallahu khayr for the info, i will look out on your blog for that then inshallah :)</p>
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		<title>By: Abu Noor Al-Irlandee</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-22344</link>
		<dc:creator>Abu Noor Al-Irlandee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>ibnabeeomar,

I had a feeeling right after I wrote that that I was not as clear as I should have been.  What I meant to say that was that the &quot;Rise and Fall&quot; class was available for purchase in mp3 format. 

 http://www.newislamicdirections.com/store/item_detail/the_rise_fall_of_the_ummah/

I do not know if it is available to listen to for free.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  InshAllaah I hope to post some thoughts about the series on my blog.  Some things from it that I found relevant to this discussion were:  Imam Zaid&#039;s discussion of Al-Afghani, Abduh, and Rida, the original Salafis. (His main problem with these &quot;Salafis,&quot; at least in the context of this series, seems to be their critique of madhabs and sufism and their prioritization of political issues.  In this context, he seems to link them completely with the modern day Salafis, which is somewhat problematic since at least what I think of as Salafis in our time have many large and fundamental differences with these figures even if they may share some similarities.   He cites approvingly a book by Elie Kedourie (which is hard to get for an affordable price but which I&#039;ve also been interested in, which according to my understanding, although Imam Zaid does not mention this explicitly in his lectures, basically questions whether Al-Afghani and Abduh were sincere in their eemaan or whether Islam was just entirely an instrumentalist tool in their hands.  The subtitle of Kedourie&#039;s work is &quot;An essay on Religious Unbelief and Political Activism in Modern Islam.&quot;   In this series, he links their thought, especially as regard to their diagnosis of the ills of the Muslim ummah to the analysis of the Orientalists.  He then defends the traditional unity of the Muslim ummah through the madhabs and the sufi tareeqahs and charges that, contrary to the claims of their opponents it was the sufis who were the bulwarks of resistance to European colonialism rather than accomodationist or pacifist forces.

Now, much of the series is contained with historical analysis of why the Muslim ummah fell under the dominance of the European colonial powers and most of this analysis is economic in nature.  Imam Zaid does do a stirring job of critiquing European colonialism and questioning the underlying assumptions of orientalists like Bernard Lewis, especially in his work &quot;What Went Wrong?&quot;

Imam Zaid (May Allaah Preserve and Protect Him) is always fascinating to me in that his essential &quot;militancy&quot; can hardly be contained, especially when he talks about political issues, and of course, especially when he talks about large scale historical injustices like European colonialism and the profound and lasting suffering that it unleashed upon much of the rest of the world, Muslim and non-Muslim.

Yet, Imam Zaid  is so firmly convinced (as far as I can tell from his work) of the wrongheadedness of both the Salafi trend, the Islamist trend, and the Jihadi trend and so firmly wedded to defending the madhabi, sufi, &quot;traditional&quot; Islam that much of the historical discussion is viewed through this lens.  

Well, there&#039;s more I want to say on this...but then I wouldn&#039;t have anything left to say on my blog.

Allaah knows best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ibnabeeomar,</p>
<p>I had a feeeling right after I wrote that that I was not as clear as I should have been.  What I meant to say that was that the &#8220;Rise and Fall&#8221; class was available for purchase in mp3 format. </p>
<p> <a href="http://www.newislamicdirections.com/store/item_detail/the_rise_fall_of_the_ummah/" rel="nofollow">http://www.newislamicdirections.com/store/item_detail/the_rise_fall_of_the_ummah/</a></p>
<p>I do not know if it is available to listen to for free.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  InshAllaah I hope to post some thoughts about the series on my blog.  Some things from it that I found relevant to this discussion were:  Imam Zaid&#8217;s discussion of Al-Afghani, Abduh, and Rida, the original Salafis. (His main problem with these &#8220;Salafis,&#8221; at least in the context of this series, seems to be their critique of madhabs and sufism and their prioritization of political issues.  In this context, he seems to link them completely with the modern day Salafis, which is somewhat problematic since at least what I think of as Salafis in our time have many large and fundamental differences with these figures even if they may share some similarities.   He cites approvingly a book by Elie Kedourie (which is hard to get for an affordable price but which I&#8217;ve also been interested in, which according to my understanding, although Imam Zaid does not mention this explicitly in his lectures, basically questions whether Al-Afghani and Abduh were sincere in their eemaan or whether Islam was just entirely an instrumentalist tool in their hands.  The subtitle of Kedourie&#8217;s work is &#8220;An essay on Religious Unbelief and Political Activism in Modern Islam.&#8221;   In this series, he links their thought, especially as regard to their diagnosis of the ills of the Muslim ummah to the analysis of the Orientalists.  He then defends the traditional unity of the Muslim ummah through the madhabs and the sufi tareeqahs and charges that, contrary to the claims of their opponents it was the sufis who were the bulwarks of resistance to European colonialism rather than accomodationist or pacifist forces.</p>
<p>Now, much of the series is contained with historical analysis of why the Muslim ummah fell under the dominance of the European colonial powers and most of this analysis is economic in nature.  Imam Zaid does do a stirring job of critiquing European colonialism and questioning the underlying assumptions of orientalists like Bernard Lewis, especially in his work &#8220;What Went Wrong?&#8221;</p>
<p>Imam Zaid (May Allaah Preserve and Protect Him) is always fascinating to me in that his essential &#8220;militancy&#8221; can hardly be contained, especially when he talks about political issues, and of course, especially when he talks about large scale historical injustices like European colonialism and the profound and lasting suffering that it unleashed upon much of the rest of the world, Muslim and non-Muslim.</p>
<p>Yet, Imam Zaid  is so firmly convinced (as far as I can tell from his work) of the wrongheadedness of both the Salafi trend, the Islamist trend, and the Jihadi trend and so firmly wedded to defending the madhabi, sufi, &#8220;traditional&#8221; Islam that much of the historical discussion is viewed through this lens.  </p>
<p>Well, there&#8217;s more I want to say on this&#8230;but then I wouldn&#8217;t have anything left to say on my blog.</p>
<p>Allaah knows best.</p>
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		<title>By: ibnabeeomar</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-22332</link>
		<dc:creator>ibnabeeomar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:53:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-22332</guid>
		<description>abu noor - can you post a link to the rise and fall mp3s?
jazakallahu khayr</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>abu noor &#8211; can you post a link to the rise and fall mp3s?<br />
jazakallahu khayr</p>
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		<title>By: Abu Noor Al-Irlandee</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-22330</link>
		<dc:creator>Abu Noor Al-Irlandee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-22330</guid>
		<description>Musa,

Interesting topic and observations in your original post.  I don&#039;t really say how much of the subsequent discussion relates to the questions you raised, but perhaps I did not understand you correctly. 

I am also hesitant to comment because I don&#039;t have personal experience in any of the Muslim lands, which are to me more interesting than trying to discuss the &quot;official Islam&quot; of non-Muslim western lands.  But, perhaps I shall try to gather my thoughts on those topics.

A couple of things I&#039;d recommend as very relevant to this discussion are Imam Zaid Shakir&#039;s (May God protect and preserve him) set of lectures &quot;Rise and Fall of the Muslim Ummah (available in mp3 format).  Also, a book I am currently reading, Muslim Rebels: Kharijites and the Politics of Extremism in Egypt by Jeffrey Kenney.

Allaah knows best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Musa,</p>
<p>Interesting topic and observations in your original post.  I don&#8217;t really say how much of the subsequent discussion relates to the questions you raised, but perhaps I did not understand you correctly. </p>
<p>I am also hesitant to comment because I don&#8217;t have personal experience in any of the Muslim lands, which are to me more interesting than trying to discuss the &#8220;official Islam&#8221; of non-Muslim western lands.  But, perhaps I shall try to gather my thoughts on those topics.</p>
<p>A couple of things I&#8217;d recommend as very relevant to this discussion are Imam Zaid Shakir&#8217;s (May God protect and preserve him) set of lectures &#8220;Rise and Fall of the Muslim Ummah (available in mp3 format).  Also, a book I am currently reading, Muslim Rebels: Kharijites and the Politics of Extremism in Egypt by Jeffrey Kenney.</p>
<p>Allaah knows best.</p>
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		<title>By: Abu Noor Al-Irlandee</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-22329</link>
		<dc:creator>Abu Noor Al-Irlandee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:27:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-22329</guid>
		<description>Lubna,

May Allaah (swt) heal your mother, and comfort her as much as possible.  May Allaah (swt) make whatever suffering she has to endure to be a means of forgiveness for her sins and of raising her station and bringing her closer to her Lord.  May Allaah also strengthent her entire family and allow them to be of help and comfort to her in her time of trial.  Ameen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lubna,</p>
<p>May Allaah (swt) heal your mother, and comfort her as much as possible.  May Allaah (swt) make whatever suffering she has to endure to be a means of forgiveness for her sins and of raising her station and bringing her closer to her Lord.  May Allaah also strengthent her entire family and allow them to be of help and comfort to her in her time of trial.  Ameen.</p>
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		<title>By: Lubna</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-22328</link>
		<dc:creator>Lubna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/07/06/open-thread-sunday-7-6-08/#comment-22328</guid>
		<description>Dear all,
I know I am a Muslim, I guess I am a sufi muslim (I belong to India and it is the sufi preachers who convertered my ancestors). But right now, I need your prayers. Please pray for my mother who has been diagonised with pancreatic cancer.
Thank you
Lubna</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear all,<br />
I know I am a Muslim, I guess I am a sufi muslim (I belong to India and it is the sufi preachers who convertered my ancestors). But right now, I need your prayers. Please pray for my mother who has been diagonised with pancreatic cancer.<br />
Thank you<br />
Lubna</p>
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