I think it is an excellent topic for an article. This is real in Islam. I must say, however, that I agree with Mezba that usually it is the women who are envious and are giving the hasad or the nazr. Men usually think “well I need to get a girl like that to mary”, even non Muslims know this, but women think “I need THAT GUY to marry”. Women are very jealous by their nature, and we see that they get jealous of even the smallest things, so wouldn’t they be jealous of like you stated the clothes, party, and especially a “nice find” of the groom.

The protection is with the Qur’an, period.

Thank you for this post!

OK will someone explain this to me? I mean that sincerely, I really don’t understand. Someone’s jealousy has the potential to cause physical pain to the other person? I am very curious.

I’m confused too – even if the wedding had been 100% segregated, surely the sister could still have had ‘nazr’ put on her by other women? After all, a normal man isn’t going to look at a woman and say ‘I’m so jealous of her, I wish I looked as good as her, etc etc’. It’s more likely that a woman would do that. If a man was jealous, it would be of her husband, in which case he’d be the one with migraines?

So realistically the only way of avoiding this situation would have been to have the bride wearing something unattractive, perhaps with her face covered even in front of women. Or else have a tiny nikah with no extraneous guests.

Anyway, I thought for ‘nazr’ to occur, there had to be some malice intended as well as jealousy/envy? So really, you could ensure that you only invite close family and friends who would never wish you harm – small weddings are nicer anyway :)

I understand there are many arguments for weddings to be segregated, but I don’t think the possibility of nazr happening is really one of them. That would be a good argument for being more modest in the whole wedding event.

Is mixing really haraam?

(1) Narrated Anas bin Malik: My grandmother Mulaika invited Allah’s Apostle for a meal which she had prepared specially for him. He ate some of it and said, “Get up. I shall lead you in the prayer.” I brought a mat that had become black owing to excessive use and I sprinkled water on it. Allah’s Apostle stood on it and prayed two Rakat; and the orphan was with me (in the first row), and the old lady stood behind us. (Book #12, Hadith #819)

Bukhari-

You might site the Usool al Fiqh , (Principle in Islamic Jurisprudence) – Blocking the means – but does that mean you prohibit what Allah has made lawful by the action of the Prophet(Saw)?

Food for thought.

It seems that due to the men being able to look at the bride, there was
1. Less blessings in the event because of haraam being allowed.
2. Men were feeling jealous about the bride; that why does the groom have a such a nice bride, and “why don’t I have one”, etc.
These 2 factors contributed to harm caused to the bride.

But I do agree that separation will not prevent envy, and nor should that be the intention of separation. The intention for separation should be to obey Allah!
So I believe what SaqibSaab was trying to say was that if we fear and obey Allah, we will be protecting ourselves from harmful effects in the dunya (and not just the afterlife). It can be proven from texts in the Quran and Sunnah that disobedience to Allah does indeed increase difficulties in a person’s life here and now.
Allah knows best.

The Pakistani band lead singer with the long ponytail

Oh right, the one that was blasting into my ear right next to my table.

Assalamualaykum

Personally knowing and seeing the effects of what happened to the sister in the story mentioned above, the effects of Hasad on a person is SCARY. Her migranes were so severe that at times she felt that she would die from the pain and there was nothing anyone could do to help her. Going from being healthy all your life, and then suddenly becoming trapped by migranes that run your life with no scientific explanaition, a person is bound to think, Why is this happening to me? Where did i go wrong?
Sometimes the first place to look is at your sins. When have you disobeyed Allah…
Having a mixed and luxurious wedding (israf) are all sinful acts.
One protects themselves by obeying Allahs commands, reciting their adkaar, etc
On the ongoing debate of whether it is a man or woman is more likely to give the bride hasad, I think we should all stop and examine the more important question. What sins have we commited?

May Allah protect Us All
May we all be able to pass our tests

the Hasad angle is a needless digression

I really don’t see how it is needless. Any angle which helps the individual to see the wrong that they are in is needed. Usually, as is the case in this story, when people see direct physical harm they are less likely to do the action.

Faiez,

I think it takes away from the *impact* of the main argument of the article: Tabarruj. People can rationalize away the Hasad angle, or get caught up in thinking that such cases of the evil eye are not a common occurence, but it is very hard to argue that tabarruj will not happen in the absence of separate spaces for the men and women in a party. That is all.

However, I concede that you are totally correct in saying that if any consideration or reason makes a person stop sinning, then there is value in it.

Wassalam.

This article would’ve suited better in the 15th century when people believed that small pox and fevers were caused by demons and witchcraft.

Honestly, does anyone really believe that *jealousy* would cause medical problems? The evil eye as an acceptable explanation in the 21st century when we know so much more about medicine? How can anyone be so naive.

Honestly, does anyone really believe that *jealousy* would cause medical problems? The evil eye as an acceptable explanation in the 21st century when we know so much more about medicine? How can anyone be so naive.

How can someone be so naive to believe that atoms that have never been seen be denoated as the “building blocks” of that which exists? How can someone be so naive to believe that viruses that none have seen be responsible for such devastating diseases? How can someone be so naive to think that electrons exist in orbits?

It is not about what you THINK is responsible for something, but what ACTUALLY is responsible for something. We know from the Creator of the heavens and the earth and YOU, that hasad exists and we also see the obvious effects of hasad not only in this story but in many others. Similar to how you believe in the issues mentioned above, all of this is based on evidences that we experience around us.

Medical evidence is not something you experience around you, which is anecdotal at best.

Evidence is several independent, double-blind, controlled, peer-reviewed studies which show that headaches and other medical ailments etc aren’t caused by jealousy, but medical, physical reasons.

This is not proof – this is an observation with imperfect instruments subject to change when and if new data points become available. It’s the same technique, by the way, used to affirm the theory of evolution as the origin of life (and not simply a process used to move it forward).

Oops.

Siraaj

By the way, why is the post called ‘to seperate or not to seperate’ as if there is room for opinions on this matter! ?

I think its important to point out that the evil eye affects people only if it is THE WILL of Allah SWT. So you can take the precautions and have a small wedding, read the surahs or separate the wedding ceremony….You were meant to go through that pain and experience the migraines. It was either a trial or punishment. Allah knows best. Some people get soooo paranoid over evil eye that they start suspecting people…Thus creating ill feelings among Muslims..Another trap of the Shaytaan.

As far as whether a wedding should be separated or not. I think that is on a lower level of importance compared to how much is spent on weddings. A wedding at a hotel…easily $25,000 to $30,000. Add in the cost of the engagement party, mehndi, walima, clothes for the bride…I could go on and on.

PLEASE! PLEASE! Show me the verse where God declares that men and women must seperate themselves in events! Please show me the verse. I don’t want your scholars’ articles. I want the Surah and Ayat number.

Good call. While we’re at it, I want to see the surah and ayaah number which tells me I have to pray 2 rakaat for fajr, 4 rakaat for dhuhr, 4 rakaat for ‘Asr, 3 rakaat for maghrib, and 4 rakaat for ‘Isha. If that’s not in the Qur’aan, then to heck with you!

Siraaj

There are some good points in many of the posts here, but I do wonder at the focus on how some Muslims may dress at mixed weddings. It can’t be any worse than the way most non-Muslims (and non-observant Muslims) dress in everyday life in which men and women are mixing–there is no choice here–at work, while shopping, and everywhere else. I’m not talking about whether weddings should be mixed or not, and just because others are doing something doesn’t mean that we should. But it seems odd to me to get so strongly excited about the problems of mixing and modesty when, at least in the U.S., we are surrounded by mixing and immodesty in our everyday lives on an everyday basis in ways that go far beyond what we’re going to see at the average Muslim wedding.

Same thing with free mixing; where we do have some say, such as in our weddings, we should keep things modest and respectful. When we’re out and about in the world, it’s not within our realm of control. Of course, we do what we can to avoid unnecessary mixing, but it’s not always possible to avoid everything all the time.

I agree. When things are under our control, we should do our best to keep things as modest and respectful as we believe appropriate. What I was looking at was the strength of people’s emotions on this topic. That is, although we should do our best, it’s just something that we should do calmly as a normal part of our lives rather than getting all hot and bothered about others who add one more instance among a thousand others of being less than fully modest and respectful. In some ways, such excitement is less than modest and respectful.

SIMPLE: Because Allah said so. …

Sure, there might be wisdoms behind it which we see later such as hasad, scientific evidence, etc. but that isn’t the main reason.

Yes and no. Yes, we obey because Allah said so. But, if we don’t understand the reason, then we may make haram what is halal, and vice versa. Take, for example, this hadith (Bukhari 5:17):

Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:
That Allah’s Apostle said, “Allah will not look on the Day of Judgment at him who drags his robe (behind him) out of pride.” Abu Bakr said “One side of my robe slacks down unless I get very cautious about it.” Allah’s Apostle said, “But you do not do that with a pride.”

If Abu Bakr had not learned the reason, then he would have been forbidding what was actually permitted in his case, and he would have liekly extended that forbidding to others for whom it was not forbidden. I admit that there are some instances in which we may not know the reasons and in which a command of Allah seems clearly applicable to everyone at all times. Even so, we cannot say at all times in all cases, “Allah said so.” To the best of our ability, we need to determine the reason(s) behind Allah’s sayings so we can understand how to apply that guidance appropriately in different contexts at different times and with different individuals.

Actually Siraj Muhammad,

Actually Mezba, I was being sarcastic :D

Siraaj

To Mezba: Just because you don’t know of something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Indeed there’s a hadith which condones separation…Nabi ‘alayhi salatu wa salaam said “…’alaykum bi sunnati wa sunnatil khulafaa ar-rashideen al-mehdiyeen…”

In other words the actions of Khulafa ar-rashidun are a “SUNNAH”. And Umar radhi Allahu ‘anh did indeed separate between men and women in masjid etc…due to what he saw as fitnah in his time. Such a prohibition is even more applicable to a “wedding”.

(And obviously it would be a totally different discussion if you happen to reject ahadith so yeh).

God has given you the commandment to lower your gaze (and looking at someone does not translate into a “gaze”). -whawha

i hope you’re kidding, whawha. if your just looking around thats diffrent, but the point here is looking at someone in an immodest manner. Your gaze is your sight, basically what your looking at. So when Allah Azawajal commanded us to lower our gaze, it is a commandment of modesty, respect for the opposite sex, and piety. Of course, looking at someone in lustful ways or someone of the opposite sex is what I’m talking about here.

“looking at someone does not translate into a gaze…”

man, i still can’t get over that.

and Allah knows best.

‘I don’t gaze’- he’s obviously more ambitious than that…

Nadia, I completely agree with you! I wrote a post recently on my own blog about the annoyances of figuring out how much tax to pay on jewelry recieved during the time of the wedding. And what it all came down to for me was that… these questions that we create during the time of weddings are only formed because they are unnecessarily extravagant! If brides didn’t recieve a boat load of jewelry (that they really *don’t* need) then all these questions of to pay tax or not to pay tax wouldn’t even be an issue.

May Allah help us to cut out the excess in our life, and come closer to Him.

Well written article, SaqibSaab. I’m glad our wedding is separated :-)

you’re right, the Quran doesn’t tell you how many rakats you must pray, therefore your tradition of making however many rakats you make during salat is something that you can’t say that God commanded you to do.

whawha, so how is one supposed to pray then may I ask?

May Allah guide us all.

P.S. Awesome post btw. We need to make people more aware about these issues.

Anyone who rejects something that is known to belong to the religion by necessity (ma’lum min ad.Din bi’d darura)- including, according to the explicit words of the ulema, a “single rak’a of the obligatory prayers”- is a mutadd, an apostate.

The ulema decree what constitutes necessity, and if you don’t agree with them, you’re an apostate.

Who gave the ulema this authority? And when was it first stated that they had it and who stated it?

Lol this culture is amazing and really disgusting sometimes. Everybody thinks they have the knowledge to do ijtihad and make there own fiqh by just reading a ahadith and a verse from Quran. There are countless fatawaas prohibiting the free mixing of gender but nobody gives a dime about it because they are all internet mujtahids. Some of you folks are saying that it is allowed to have free mixing gathering than what is your proof. BRING ME A SCHOLAR who supports your notion. I can post tons of fatawas from various scholars both from this era and classical who have deemed it haram to have such gathering. If you folks are truthful and have some ghairh for Allahs deen give me a scholar who have said that free mixing of men and women is allowed in Islam. Don’t give me your interpretations as you are a nobody but a name on this forum.

Here are some fatawas

1)http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/103044/free%20mixing

2) Free-Mixing Between Men and Women”
http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=2&sub_cat_id=594

3) Shaykh Qardaawi on free mixing.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/free-mixing-qaradawi.html

4) http://red-sulphur.org/?q=node/1066
More on prohibition of free mixing.

5) http://www.islamicnetwork.com/index.php/weblog/comments/fiqh_of_free_mixing_hukm_ul_ikhtilaat/

6) http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996015630&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE

Brother Suhail,

I understand your position, but two points.

First, I’m not quite sure how you are, if you are, differentiating between the terms “apostate” and “heretic”. An apostate is someone who leaves the religion because of disbelief in the religion. A heretic is someone believes in the religion but rejects certain teachings of the dominant group.

Second, what caught my attention was that rejecting “a ‘single rak’a of the obligatory prayers’” put someone into the category of apostate. That is very strong.

The five pillars and six articles of faith are well-known as crucial elements of being a Muslim, but are their exact specifications as decreed by the ulema a “requirement”? That seems to give them the same power as the pope and priests in Catholicism.

Of course, everyone should show respect to those who have more knowledge. But there is a difference between (1) showing respect and giving greater weight to someone with more knowledge and (2) accepting dictators of religious rules. So, that’s why I am asking these questions,

On what basis do the ulema claim this authority? When was it first claimed? Who made that claim first? And, when it was first made, did anyone disagree with that claim? Who and why?

Brother Charles,

First of all no scholar in Islamic history have claimed that he has the right to legislate in religion. Legislation in this deen is the sole right of Allah(SWT). Secondly the scholars from the past and present don’t give you a decree but they tell you that this is what the Prophet(SAW) have said and should be obeyed. Scholars are not like Pope that they can legislate in deen. They come up with fatawas which are derived from Quran and Sunnah. They don’t make up there own rules for this deen. So your equating them with pope is something very derogatory.

Brother Charles have you ever read what can invalidate your Islam. There are books upon books written on this very topic. Ulema didnt came up with there own list from there minds that this would expel a person from Islam. It was derived from Quran, Sunnah and the way of the sahabah. Nobody claimed any authority over anything. As there are rules of becoming a muslim there are certain things that can remove you from the fold of Islam e.g. Mocking Allah(SWT) and Prophet(SAW) will invalidate your Islam even if you are joking.

I think you should read some usul-al-fiqh before delving into this discussion really. I think you are from Catholic background so you are mixing things up. You should better read up some books on usul-al-fiqh and then u will see what i am trying to say.

Prophet(SAW) said that you should pray 2 rakah fard in the fajr prayer and that is what he did his whole life. This means that is what we have to do, There is ijma of all the scholars on this. We cant come today and say ‘Well i would like to pray 3 rakah’. This would mean that you dont want to follow what Prophet(SAW) said this your deen is not what was the deen with which Prophet(SAW) came with.

Secondly Salah is the most important part of this deen. It is the first pillar of Islam after you take shahdah. It is the first thing that will be asked about on the day of judgement. Do you think that Prophet(SAW) didn’t tell us about this while he talked about all the other stuff. I find it pathetic when these people come around and say that well Salah is not important. It would be better for them to call themselves something else rather than muslim.

Also during the reign of Abu Bakr(RA) when some tribes stopped paying Zakah he told them that these tribes are murtadd and apostates. Did any sahabah disagree with him on this ruling? The answer is no.

When you are a layman in religion that means you have not read anything in this deen except may be few ahadith and Quran. You cant make up your own rules just by reading Quran and Sunnah. Within the sahabah there were scholars and layman. There were faqih (like Ibn Masud(RA)) and mujahid(like Khaleed(RA)) who were not faqih. When they had question regarding any issue they would go to the these faqih like Ibn Masud(RA) or Abu Hurairah or Umar(RA) or Ibn Umar(RA) or Aisha(RA). They would give them those rulings. They differed with each other too on these rulings but they accepted it.

Deriving the rulings from Quran and Sunnah needs certain education, knowledge, thorough understanding and most of all taqwa. If you are really interested in this topic then you should read usul–al-fiqh otherwise you will become really confused. I would highly discourage discussion on these topics unless you have some good background in usul al fiqh.

Wa ‘alaikumus-salaaam,

The cure for al-ayn is, I believe, ruqyah.

Please see this link and others on Islam-QA.com for more details…

As Salaam Alaikum,
People love to go about and call someone a non-Muslim just because they don’t agree. I believe in God. I believe in the Quran. I DO believe in the Prophet Muhammad, and I DO beleive in obeying him. BUT I don’t believe hadiths because hadiths are based on a man’s interpertation of what is divine knowledge and what is not. Who were all of these people who felt that they could determine if something is “divine” because of some sort of “science”? Who are these people to say that the Prophet Muhammad really said something, and really did not? I mean, sure if you want to on “faith” then go on it, but I don’t believe in these hadiths that claim that Prophet Muhammad did such and such and said such and such. And there is nothing htat you can say that fromthe Quran it tells you to accept that hadiths of Buhkari and these other so called scholars who went around and checked the “authenticty” of hadiths. If you all really knew, you would know that these “scholars” would admit to throwing away “hadiths” that they felt were “true” at their own discretion… now what does that tell you?

The Quran ask you what hadith will you believe after it! So you believe in all of your hadiths that are claimed to be “authentic” and “divine knowledge” not by God, not by any Prophet, not by any Messenger according to the Quran. But by people who were claimed to be known as good people, and we have all been fooled by “good people”.

salaam

It’s not about obeying or disobeying the Prophet. When one says, you have to accept the whole package, what is really being said is, You have to accept the whole package according to the tradition that I (or we) follow. And some people don’t accept that intolerant ultimatum.

Saying that “Islam is a whole package” is problematic. What about the Shia? Their package differs from that of Sunnis, as does their collection of hadith. And among Sunnis, there is a small minority that rejects hadith. And we could go on, mentioning the Asharis and others.

So, two points that I believe whawha is making are: (1) The “science” of hadith was made by fallible humans and thus cannot be a requirement of the religion. (2) Who gave scholars the right to determine what was a requirement of Islam?

It’s not enough to ask, Who are you to say anything? It’s not enough to claim, Whoever disagrees with my tradition and my scholars is absolutely wrong. These are techniques used to shut someone up rather than discuss, persuade, and even learn. Plus, as I will probably repeat ad infinitum, If I had followed the teachings of my scholars, I would still be a Christian. Scholars are not infallible, regardless of religion.

No doubt people will disagree on the rationale used for any position. But a little bit of humility in one’s position opens the door to learning among all who would listen. Thus, it would be helpful to answer directly the questions and points being asked.
.

Abu Noor Al-Irlandee,

Thanks for the response. I agree with the gist of what you’re saying, that people need to be sincere in order for a discussion to be worthwhile. And I can imagine that many do not want to rehash “old and settled” arguments.

Perhaps MuslimsMatters could have links to the material to such issues that is available online or even to the books that they recommend, perhaps a page of recommended readings. They do that sometimes with individual posts, but it might be nice to have a page (or more) devoted to resources on different issues. And they might even categorize the readings as introductory, intermediate, or advanced. I’d certainly appreciate that as much of the reading (in English) I’ve done so far on issues such as these assumes positions on these issues rather than actually discusses the reasoning behind them. They’re mostly at the introductory “Here’s what we believe” stage instead of analyzing and evaluating the various positions in a critical, scholarly fashion.

So, I’m open to reading sources that critique the various positions on why scholars get the right to decide the requirements. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I respect the opinions of those who know more than I do. But I reserve the right to critique those opinions. As Isaac Newton said, “If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.” Despite the genius of Newton, those with only a bachelor’s in mathematics know more about calculus than he did because they have started where he left off. Similarly, we are able to begin where the scholars left off. But to understand where they left off, I need to see their positions, the reasons for their positions, and all the various positions–not simply the ones that people want me to see.

So, back to one of those two points, Can someone point me to online materials or to books that consider in a critical and scholarly manner the right of scholars to determine the requirements of Islam?

I think people are taking things to extreme. Like some others who commented, I do not see any logic in this story.

I also believe that one should not impose ones choice on others. Islam is abstract and can be interpreted as widely and differently as people are different and diverse. This is a fact. Now some people beieve in seperation while others do not. But to suggest that segregation at a wedding or any other function is the way to ensure safety and blessings, is illogical. The same goes for the whole covering up/hijab issue.

Muslims should be allowed to decide for themselves rather than having various shaykhs and “scholars” impose their wishes and their interpretations onto them. what is precieved as unislamic by some, is not nessecarily percieved as unislamic by others. Both remain muslims albeit with different interpretations. So let people decide for themselves. If you really believe this story, then dont have a big function, put on a burkah, dont invest in jewelry or fancy clothing seeing as nobody will see it, and just have some nice food. And even then you may get struck by envy for the simple reason that you got married and that might be something too hard for others to accept happily.

One question remains – if the woman was struck by “hasad” then why was she to go through years of pain and agony when in fact the shaykhs had diagnozed her? Why were they unable to cure her? There could have been a medical problem and sometimes even the best of doctors don’t know. New things surface every day even in science. Not everything can be explained and I am surprised at the psychic abilities of the Shaykhs.

AsSalaamu Alaikum waRahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu,

I am getting married in a year inshaAllah. My intended and I are planning our wedding out. Our African American culture and custom doesn’t really provide us with much of a blue print for the rulings on weddings. In fact, one of the only customs which I wasn’t too happy with but understood why it was done in our tradition was jumping the broom. When doing the research in Sahih Bukhari , Sahih Muslim and of course, Qur’an about marrying women, the guidelines for the Walima are not really set as far as my research took me. The major hadith I’ve found about the Walima is the hadith instituting it where the Prophet (S.A.W.) told his companion who got married after the Hijra to have banquet even if with one sheep.
I’ve bought a book on the fiqh of marriage that was very strict and, it may have been due to it’s translation, seemed more so based on opinion and feeling against Western or American culture rather than being based on Qur’an and Sunnah. We read as much as we could then we made istikhara about the matter. I listened to many lectures of various shuyookh such as Imam Anwar Awlaki, and other various Shuyookh with lectures on HalalTube.com,
I also attended Fiqh of Purification and Islamic Code of Ethics classes with Al Maghrib Institute with Shuyookh Abdul BaryYahya and Muhammad Ibn Faqih respectively. They touched on marriage and the rights of a spouses and children which my intended and I continously study from the notes that I took the book provided from Al Maghrib along with Hadith and Qur’an to better understand the most Halal way to execute this marriage.
We’ve also observed many muslim weddings of various cultures. We are striving inshaAllah do conduct our Walima in the most halal way.
We’ve discovered that music is permissable during marriage because it’s a celebration. We have been very critical to which songs we would play and their lyrics to ensure that the lyrics don’t promote anything unislamic and I’ve decided to have more Nasheed than anything else, although it’s a custom to have the electric slide play at an African American celebration. It’s funny but I’m serious. We’ve also decided to set aside an area for our guests who are more strict in interpretation and understanding of Islam than we are to play games and so on. We also designed a place for Salaah large enough for all muslim guests of which of course there would be a room for the brothers separate from the sisters. As well inshaAllah we will have a recitation of Qur’an being read as well through out the wedding inshaAllah
I’m explaining all of this to you, not really to put my business out there, personally I would rather speak to a set of Shuyookh to help me in this matter rather than to let all of the internet read my story, but I am very eager to find out if the Shuyookh who seem to be on this site if they could help find out the regulations on Walima events. Is there more information about how the Prophet (S.A.W.) had a Walima? If my memory serves me correctly His (S.A.W.) most notable Walima was with the Mother of the Believers Zainab (radiAllahu anha). I’m continuing doing my own research but I would greatly appreciate it if someone could give me some more information in the matter inshaAllah. May Allah bless you for your efforts JazakAllahu Khairun.

AsSalaamu Alaikum

Salaamu alaikum
I stumbled on this post accidentally, because I was searching the net for Dr Sami Al-Majid’s piece wherein he contexualises the hadeeth about women traveling without a mahram.
Apparently someone here has referred to another work of his in the comments, and so I was trying to go through the comments to find the reference. Suffice to say, that just going through a bunch of them gave me a headache, and so I’ll give up.

In South Africa, we are battling with this:
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3102&art_id=iol1274435628183P613

and this:

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3102&art_id=iol1274435628183P613

In the bigger scheme of things I find debates like these counter-productive and time and energy-consuming.
The issue of segregation of sexes is not as clear-cut as some here make it out to be (and I’m not talking weddings, although even there there it can be said to be debatable as it depends on so many things – who is invited, what are the seating arrangements, what is the bride wearing, are the couple being forced by their famiies (does happen you know) to have a certain type of arrangement?)

In fact on the very site on which I read the Sami Al-Majid mahram piece, there is an article which discusses segregation and its deeper meaning.

MANY (and not just self-proclaimed progressives) argue that one of the verses quoted above is in specific reference to the wives of the Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu ‘alayhi wassallam.

I’m also annoyed at the constant argument that “we do not not observe the same etiquette, dress the same way” that women in the time of the Prophet Muhammad Sallallahy ‘alayhi wassallam did. Strangely enough, this argument is often put forward in contexts (I agree, not this one) where women DO dress modestly. A perfect example thereof is South Africa, where this line of argument is used to discourage women from attending the ‘Eid Salaah. I’ve attended ‘Eid Salaah here for close to a decade now, and NOT ONCE have I seen a woman there dressed inappropriately.

But then again, the way we Muslims go about things, we’ll always have our own ideologically-sltanted definition of what constitutes appropriateness and try to impose this on others.

I don’t even know what my point is. All I know is that four or five years ago, when I believed ‘my Shaykhs’ were the best Shaykhs and always right, I would have probably lent support to the said arguments. I’m not so super-confident that I’m right anymore.

wassalaam