An interesting article in the NYT magazine about why Shariah would make sense from a socio-political standpoint for muslim countries, and for a change, does not demonize the concept (although simplifies it greatly, which leads to some factual error) the way that usually happens in the press. If not for the facts, the article is worth a read just to see a little much-needed, dare I say almost positive, attitude, toward an islamic concept.

NY Times article

http://www.almaghrib.org to register….

facebook the event…type “ILMFEST” in the search bar…all the event details will be there…

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=7746864115

I’m reading “Islam” (page 92) by Fazlur Rahman, in which he wrote that according to al-Ashari and orthodox Islam,

1. The attributes of Allah “are neither identical with His Essence nor different from it.”
2. “God’s Speech is eternal and uncreated.”

Question #1: How can something be logically and simultaneously “different from” yet not “identical”?

Question #2: Only the Creator is uncreated. All else is created. Why isn’t #2 considered shirk?

Assalaamu alaykum;

“Only the Creator is uncreated. All else is created.” — It would seem you think Allah’s attributes exist outside of Allah – that they are not a “part” of Allah.

Just to add to brother Amad’s point: All of Allah’s attributes (mentioned in the Qur’an and Sunnah) which includes His Knowledge, His Seeing, His Speech, etc. are uncreated. But what does it mean to be created? Essentially, it means for something not to have existed and then to come into existence. Therefore, to claim Allah’s attributes, be they Speech, Hearing, etc. are created would be to claim, for example, that Allah was not All-Knowledgeable at one point in time and then became Knowledgeable.

As for a direct proof for your question regarding whether to say Allah’s Speech (which you assumed was but is not created) we have the supplication of the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam: ‘I take refuge in Allaah’s perfect words from the evil He has created.’ If the Speech of Allah was created, then the prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam would not have sought refuge in it. Therefore, we affirm, as Allah affirmed in Qur’an, that Allah indeed speaks. But just as is the case with His other attributes, we affirm the meaning of the word (e.g. speak, life, etc) but we do not ask nor do we know “how” Allah speaks or “how” Allah hears, etc. In other words, we understand the concept of “speech” and affirm that Allah does speak without delving into “how” this occurs.

Perhaps that’s why you thought it was shirk, because you thought to claim Allah speaks would be to claim He speaks in the human fashion (with lungs, vocal chords, lips, etc)? Wa lillahi mathalul ‘ala. If you’re interested in finding out more about this topic Greg, I would suggest you take the Light Upon Light (Aqeedah 102) AlMaghrib Institute seminar where this topic and others relating to Allah’s Names and Attribuets are covered in much depth. In sha Allah, you can find out more here: http://www.almaghrib.org/seminar_lul.php.

Some other supplication whereby the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon Him, seeks refuge in the Words (Speech) of Allah:
http://www.makedua.com/display_dua.php?sectionid=30
http://www.makedua.com/display_dua.php?sectionid=44

If I’ve erred, please do correct me.

^^ Subhan Allah, it certainly did not look as lengthy when I typed that response in gmail.

I think a bi-monthly open thread on MM would be awesome!

Bi ithnillah, I’ll have to think up some juicy questions to ask.

@ Amad: It depends on what you mean by “Qur’an,” is it the physical mushaf, the words you recite, the words themselves, etc…?

The Kalam/speech of Allah is uncreated. The collection of pieces of paper you hold in your hand is created. When you say ‘Qur’an’ it refers to the Kalam of Allah, which is uncreated. The physical book is called Mushaf.

As one brother put it: “Our reciting the Qur’an is created, the words on the pages of the mushaf are created, our reading those words is created, our listening to the sound of the Qur’an being recited is created — but the Qur’an itself is not created.”

As far as I know, there is no difference of opinion with the Ashari school, and this is the official position

This is a really really fine point of theology which most people do not need to worry about.

I was wondering if there are some sites that MM can recommend for QA fiqh questions…or is this more of a private matter? Seeing as how there is a creed section, maybe there should be one for fiqh?

Alhamdulillah it seems that islamtoday.com take the situation in the West into account for the most part. Also, there are many questions on almaghrib’s old QA archive that might be of benefit. However, the section was closed a few years ago, so there won’t be any new questions.

The food was VERY good alumdulillah. Shaykh Yasir (specialist writer) can attest to the Chilaquiles – ask him for more details :)

Saqib

If you can recommend sources on the nature of Allah’s speech, I would appreciate it.

Although this may be a fine point of little significance for most Muslims, the words, phrases, and explanations so far given to explain this point do not differ from how Christians explain the Trinity.

sorry, the last para should read-

*Rooting for saner candidates like Ron Paul, or Ralph Nader (don’t know much about him, is he sane?) is another option for those who *need to* root for somebody.

That will get people conditioned to accept dialog and peace.

“Although this may be a fine point of little significance for most Muslims, the words, phrases, and explanations so far given to explain this point do not differ from how Christians explain the Trinity.” — Charles, I can see why you think this to be the case. You have misunderstood br. Amad’s post.

At this point, I don’t imagine it would be fruitful to reiterate how Allah’s Attributes are eternal (although it makes perfect sense). Let’s analyse the issue from a different angle. Can Allah’s speech be created?

If you think about it, our (human) speech is created, just as we are created by Allah. Which is why br. Ammar Diwan’s quote reads, “our reciting the Qur’an is created…” because Muslims recite the Qur’an with their voice (which is a creation of Allah as already mentioned). Our speech isn’t eternal… how could it be?

To be mortal is to be temporal in every aspect. Our speech is a part of us. In other words, if we are temporal so too is our speech. And the same is true of Allah ta’ala (wa lillahi mathalul ‘ala). This scenario cannot possibly be likened to the explanations offered for the Trinity.

To belive in the Trinity, is to believe God exits outside of “Himself” in human form (reference to son, no need to get into Holy Ghost). But just as my speech does not exist without myself, Allah’s Attributes do not exist outside of Allah (and to Allah belongs the best description). In fact, to describe me without my speech would be to present an inaccurate/partial portrait of my person.

Now that we understand that Allah’s speech (and other Attributes) is *not* a seperate entity, it only follows that since Allah is Eternal, His Attributes are also Eternal. It would be entirely nonsensical to claim they are created.

Again Charles, if you can take the Light Upon Light course offered by the AlMaghrib Institute, I would greatly recommend it. Perhaps br. Amad or someone else can provide links or book titles for you to read further on this topic.

If I have erred, please do correct me.

Bismillah.

I was recently engaged in conversation with a non-Muslim lawyer. Somehow or other, we came to discuss an issue under Canadian law. If a person has conspired with others to commit an illegal act and while carrying out that act, someone from the group causes the death of an innocent person, are all those who executed the crime responsible for the death of that innocent…or just the person who caused their death directly?

E.g. 3 people commit an armed robbery, but don’t agree to kill anyone (they’re still carrying loaded weapons) but one from the group ends up doing so. Should all 3 be charged for culpable homicide on top of other applicable charges or just the person who comitted the murder? (Note: According to the non-Muslim lawyer, under Canadian law, all 3 would be charged for the murder.)

I was hesitant to offer my own opinion. I wanted to know the shar’i stance first. Does anyone know what it is (please provide proofs)?

PS: I’m not a blogger so I wonder if we can still post in the Open Thread outside of Sunday?

“While Ash’aris believe that Allah’s speech (an=nafsi) is uncreated, and the Quran that Allah spoke in the azal (from eternity) is uncreated, they believe that the Quran that Jibreel came down with to Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, written in the mushaf, and recited by us, is created.” — What you mean is that the Ashaa’irah believe that the Arabic letters/ words which constitute the Qur’an is a *created expression* of the *uncreated meaning* which exists within Allah and which cannot be understood by humans (alhamdulillah, we just had Ulumul Qur’an with Sh. Yasir in Toronto).

“Now, I know that there is difference on what constitutes Allah’s speech. That’s why I didn’t go there because Br. Charles’s question relates to whether speech itself is created or uncreated.” — For the most part, commentators purposefully avoided delving into what comprises the Speech of Allah. As was mentioned, there’s no need to get into this because Asharis and most other Muslims believe the Speech of Allah is eternal (the issue at hand).

I posted in the wrong place, my apologies

-_-”

Muslimah, thanks for the response. I think the problem arose for me for two reasons: one is the similarity with Christian arguments and the other is the unexamined nature of Allah’s speech and attributes.

The Quran speaks of the “hand of Allah” and the “face of Allah.” Allah is infinitely beyond such human characteristics. However, because it is impossible for humans to comprehend the activity of Allah from the perspective of Allah, we are given metaphors to help us understand at a human level a finite aspect of the activity of Allah. Similarly, the attributes and speech of Allah are also metaphors for Allah’s activity and being.

From this perspective, there’s no need to consider whether they are eternal or not, created or not, because we are dealing with metaphors–not with something literal, which can lead, as it did for me, to the concept of separate entities.

This perspective also helps to separate, at least for me, the similarity between Muslim and Christian arguments on the oneness of Allah because Jesus is not a metaphor but literally a human being.

Allah knows best.