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	<title>Comments on: Dialogue with the People of the Book II</title>
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	<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/</link>
	<description>Discourses in the Intellectual Traditions, Political Situation, and Social Ethics of Muslim Life</description>
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		<title>By: Reem abou-samra</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-38199</link>
		<dc:creator>Reem abou-samra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:08:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-38199</guid>
		<description>Nur, 
I wasn&#039;t stating that there are organized sects of christians who claim that jesus wasn&#039;t god perse, but individuals. You find this historically, as in the case of Salman Al-farisi (the persian) and his studies of authentic christianity, as well as contemporarily some individuals who question that claim, yet still identify themselves as christians (there are many blogs online). I am not making an argument towards organized religion. Also, I&#039;ve spoken to many among the universalist congregation who actually disagree with the claim that Jesus being god/son of god, but rather a spiritual being/leader type of thing. 
one example of blog writers is: 
http://www.questioningchristian.com, there&#039;s a post (i think from 2005 though) about the term lord that was replaced by the term god. 

you can also find other arguments going both ways: 
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&amp;id=5460

anyway... i wasn&#039;t making a like universal claim of denying what the majority believes, just that there is a possibility, as there was historically, that some people might not necessarily (as individuals, not congregationally) believe in christianity without believing jesus was the son of god. 

God knows best, and may Allah (swt) forgive me for any mistakes or misunderstandings. 

Jazakum Allahu khairan
salam</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nur,<br />
I wasn&#8217;t stating that there are organized sects of christians who claim that jesus wasn&#8217;t god perse, but individuals. You find this historically, as in the case of Salman Al-farisi (the persian) and his studies of authentic christianity, as well as contemporarily some individuals who question that claim, yet still identify themselves as christians (there are many blogs online). I am not making an argument towards organized religion. Also, I&#8217;ve spoken to many among the universalist congregation who actually disagree with the claim that Jesus being god/son of god, but rather a spiritual being/leader type of thing.<br />
one example of blog writers is:<br />
<a href="http://www.questioningchristian.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.questioningchristian.com</a>, there&#8217;s a post (i think from 2005 though) about the term lord that was replaced by the term god. </p>
<p>you can also find other arguments going both ways:<br />
<a href="http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&#038;id=5460" rel="nofollow">http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&#038;id=5460</a></p>
<p>anyway&#8230; i wasn&#8217;t making a like universal claim of denying what the majority believes, just that there is a possibility, as there was historically, that some people might not necessarily (as individuals, not congregationally) believe in christianity without believing jesus was the son of god. </p>
<p>God knows best, and may Allah (swt) forgive me for any mistakes or misunderstandings. </p>
<p>Jazakum Allahu khairan<br />
salam</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Nur el Masih Ben Haq</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-36798</link>
		<dc:creator>Nur el Masih Ben Haq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-36798</guid>
		<description>In response to Reem Abou-Samra  

Yaa Reem, every Christian believes that he is a son of God; how much of Jesus himself. Every Christian believes that Jesus is son of God. Or can you tell us the name of a Christian sect that does not believe that Jesus is son of God? Below are explanations  of concept of sonship in the Holy Bible.   

BIBLICAL SON(S) OF GOD

Son(s)
In the Holy Bible, the concept of ’son’ is not always ordinarily, biological but spiritual some times; Biblically, sonship could either be in a biological or spiritual sense. The spiritual birth or sonship is attained by only the righteous or consecrated servants of God (John 3:3-8; Gen. 6:1-4; Mathew 5:9; Romans 8:14; 2 Samuel 7:14; Jeremiah 10:20).

Son(s) of God
This is, indeed, a spiritual status (Romans 1:3-4, 8:14). That biologically, God never have a son is a fact well known among, and believed by, Christians, whose Jesus and scriptures had explicitly taught so, centuries before Muhammad was born (John 1:12-13, 3:3-8, 1 Peter 1:23-25, Luke 1:35, Luke 1:35, 6:33-36).

First Son(s) of God
Biblically, being a first son is not always in a bio-chronological sense but, at times, in status sense which is conceptualized from the fact that biological first son is CONSECRATIONAL (Luke 2:22-24; Exedos 13:2) as, indeed, is every firstling (Jas. 1:18; Exedos 13:12-16).
‘First Son of God’ is the status of any one consecrated by God. It follows that there are many First Sons of God (Hebrew 12:25; Luke 2:23, Exedos 4:22-23; Jeremiah 1:5, 31:9).
Ordinarily, Adam was the first son of God (Luke 3:38, 1Cor. 15:45). But ‘consecrationally’, Jesus is the first of all the first sons of God (Romans 8:29).

Begotten Son(s) of God
Similarly, this ‘begottenness’ is in spiritual sense; it is affirmatory to spiritual birth, which is effected simply by divine declaration. Its significance is that it makes the concept more appealing than the simpler ‘Son(s) of God’. Therefore, begotten sons of God are not thus begotten in biological sense. “You are my son. Today I have begotten you” (Pls 2:7; Hebrew 5:5; Luke 3:22).

The Only (Begotten) Son of God
Therefore, the ‘onlyness’ here is not in the ordinary numerical sense but hyperbolic; it expresses dearness and dominance of an associated quality; it is a distinctive expression of a dearly value; it means the associate ‘begottenness’ that eclipses the other ‘begottennesses’ (John 1:14, 18. Compare John 3:3-5 with 16-18 and Geneses 21:8-21 with 22:1-2).

‘Jesus’ Son of God’ Status
Therefore, Jesus being God’s Son was not just due to his miraculous birth but, his absolute saintliness and being spiritually consecrated (as there are many other God’s sons, whose first birth were, however, not miraculous).

Nevertheless, the status ‘The Only Son of God’, distinguishes Jesus from the other sons of God.

Jesus, therefore, is a unique associate Son of God through whom others can attain adaption as Sons of God (Luke 1:35; Mathew 16:16-17; Galetians 4:4; John 4:15; Col. 1:15-20; Hebrew 1:4-14).

The Difference Between ‘Son of God’ and ‘Servant of God
Every son of God is His servant; but it is not every servant of God that is His Son (Hebrew 3:5-6; Jeremiah 25:9; Mathew 5:9; Acts 3:26; 1 Cor. 7:22; Romans 13:3-4, 8:14).

Significance of the Status of Son (instead of Servant) of God
‘Son’ is a status that is more recognized than ‘Servant’. It is, therefore, of a very intelligent significance. Normally, there is a much greater love in the father-son relationship than is in the master-servant type. Psychologically, filio-parental relationship is the strongest, most appealing and, therefore, most effective (Hebrew 3:5-6, 12:5-11; John 8:35, 15;15; Proverb 3:12; Mathew 7:7-11; Luke 20:9-16; Romans 8:14-17; Isaiah 1:2-3; Hosea 1:10; Galatians 4:4-7). On the other hand, the master-servant relationship is merely concptualized from service and wages.

That is why God, the most intelligent, has chosen to relate to some of His servants as His spiritual children. In fact, only the children of God will go to heaven (John 3:3; 1 Cor. 15:50).

The Problems of the Muslims
The pre-Islamic or pagan Arabs use to believe that Allah had (biological) children (Qur’an 6:100, 16;57, 37:149, 153).
Thus, the Qur’anic or Islamic rejection of any’s being son of God was due to the localized lingual perception of the early Arab Muslims, who thought that such sonship was meant biologically, as they had wrongly believed while pagans.

You see, Christianity is the most sophisticated religion. That is why Muslims fumble whenever they apply their usually simplistic logic (such as Walamyalid Walamyilad…etc) in attacking the doctrines of Christians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to Reem Abou-Samra  </p>
<p>Yaa Reem, every Christian believes that he is a son of God; how much of Jesus himself. Every Christian believes that Jesus is son of God. Or can you tell us the name of a Christian sect that does not believe that Jesus is son of God? Below are explanations  of concept of sonship in the Holy Bible.   </p>
<p>BIBLICAL SON(S) OF GOD</p>
<p>Son(s)<br />
In the Holy Bible, the concept of ’son’ is not always ordinarily, biological but spiritual some times; Biblically, sonship could either be in a biological or spiritual sense. The spiritual birth or sonship is attained by only the righteous or consecrated servants of God (John 3:3-8; Gen. 6:1-4; Mathew 5:9; Romans 8:14; 2 Samuel 7:14; Jeremiah 10:20).</p>
<p>Son(s) of God<br />
This is, indeed, a spiritual status (Romans 1:3-4, 8:14). That biologically, God never have a son is a fact well known among, and believed by, Christians, whose Jesus and scriptures had explicitly taught so, centuries before Muhammad was born (John 1:12-13, 3:3-8, 1 Peter 1:23-25, Luke 1:35, Luke 1:35, 6:33-36).</p>
<p>First Son(s) of God<br />
Biblically, being a first son is not always in a bio-chronological sense but, at times, in status sense which is conceptualized from the fact that biological first son is CONSECRATIONAL (Luke 2:22-24; Exedos 13:2) as, indeed, is every firstling (Jas. 1:18; Exedos 13:12-16).<br />
‘First Son of God’ is the status of any one consecrated by God. It follows that there are many First Sons of God (Hebrew 12:25; Luke 2:23, Exedos 4:22-23; Jeremiah 1:5, 31:9).<br />
Ordinarily, Adam was the first son of God (Luke 3:38, 1Cor. 15:45). But ‘consecrationally’, Jesus is the first of all the first sons of God (Romans 8:29).</p>
<p>Begotten Son(s) of God<br />
Similarly, this ‘begottenness’ is in spiritual sense; it is affirmatory to spiritual birth, which is effected simply by divine declaration. Its significance is that it makes the concept more appealing than the simpler ‘Son(s) of God’. Therefore, begotten sons of God are not thus begotten in biological sense. “You are my son. Today I have begotten you” (Pls 2:7; Hebrew 5:5; Luke 3:22).</p>
<p>The Only (Begotten) Son of God<br />
Therefore, the ‘onlyness’ here is not in the ordinary numerical sense but hyperbolic; it expresses dearness and dominance of an associated quality; it is a distinctive expression of a dearly value; it means the associate ‘begottenness’ that eclipses the other ‘begottennesses’ (John 1:14, 18. Compare John 3:3-5 with 16-18 and Geneses 21:8-21 with 22:1-2).</p>
<p>‘Jesus’ Son of God’ Status<br />
Therefore, Jesus being God’s Son was not just due to his miraculous birth but, his absolute saintliness and being spiritually consecrated (as there are many other God’s sons, whose first birth were, however, not miraculous).</p>
<p>Nevertheless, the status ‘The Only Son of God’, distinguishes Jesus from the other sons of God.</p>
<p>Jesus, therefore, is a unique associate Son of God through whom others can attain adaption as Sons of God (Luke 1:35; Mathew 16:16-17; Galetians 4:4; John 4:15; Col. 1:15-20; Hebrew 1:4-14).</p>
<p>The Difference Between ‘Son of God’ and ‘Servant of God<br />
Every son of God is His servant; but it is not every servant of God that is His Son (Hebrew 3:5-6; Jeremiah 25:9; Mathew 5:9; Acts 3:26; 1 Cor. 7:22; Romans 13:3-4, 8:14).</p>
<p>Significance of the Status of Son (instead of Servant) of God<br />
‘Son’ is a status that is more recognized than ‘Servant’. It is, therefore, of a very intelligent significance. Normally, there is a much greater love in the father-son relationship than is in the master-servant type. Psychologically, filio-parental relationship is the strongest, most appealing and, therefore, most effective (Hebrew 3:5-6, 12:5-11; John 8:35, 15;15; Proverb 3:12; Mathew 7:7-11; Luke 20:9-16; Romans 8:14-17; Isaiah 1:2-3; Hosea 1:10; Galatians 4:4-7). On the other hand, the master-servant relationship is merely concptualized from service and wages.</p>
<p>That is why God, the most intelligent, has chosen to relate to some of His servants as His spiritual children. In fact, only the children of God will go to heaven (John 3:3; 1 Cor. 15:50).</p>
<p>The Problems of the Muslims<br />
The pre-Islamic or pagan Arabs use to believe that Allah had (biological) children (Qur’an 6:100, 16;57, 37:149, 153).<br />
Thus, the Qur’anic or Islamic rejection of any’s being son of God was due to the localized lingual perception of the early Arab Muslims, who thought that such sonship was meant biologically, as they had wrongly believed while pagans.</p>
<p>You see, Christianity is the most sophisticated religion. That is why Muslims fumble whenever they apply their usually simplistic logic (such as Walamyalid Walamyilad…etc) in attacking the doctrines of Christians.</p>
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		<title>By: Heavenly Hues - &#8216;Aql and Rationale &#124; MuslimMatters.org</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-21365</link>
		<dc:creator>Heavenly Hues - &#8216;Aql and Rationale &#124; MuslimMatters.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-21365</guid>
		<description>[...] Ittihad (Windsor/Dearborn) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ittihad (Windsor/Dearborn) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Heavenly Hues - The Concept of Justice in Islam &#124; MuslimMatters.org</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-21103</link>
		<dc:creator>Heavenly Hues - The Concept of Justice in Islam &#124; MuslimMatters.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-21103</guid>
		<description>[...] Ittihad [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ittihad [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Heavenly Hues - Good and Evil Winning Paper &#124; MuslimMatters.org</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-18410</link>
		<dc:creator>Heavenly Hues - Good and Evil Winning Paper &#124; MuslimMatters.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-18410</guid>
		<description>[...] Check out the other papers we have posted as well from Husna and Durbah. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Check out the other papers we have posted as well from Husna and Durbah. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Reem Abou-samra</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-15872</link>
		<dc:creator>Reem Abou-samra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-15872</guid>
		<description>Asalamu alaikum, 
Just a point about the ayah concering the Jews claiming that Ezra was the son of God. This may not have necessarily been in reference to the jews of Madina. Some mufasiroon speak about Uzair, a man who lived around 450 BC who was a like mujadid for the jews, that they revered him so much. The texts of the Jews were supposedly lost and he supposedly re-wrote the old testament and re-recorded the laws of the jews. So, he was revered to the extent that later peoples believed him to be the son of God, a&#039;uthu billah. However, not all Jews believe this, similarly in Christianity, not all sects believe that Jesus was either. 

Jazakum Allahu khairan
Asalamu alaikum</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Asalamu alaikum,<br />
Just a point about the ayah concering the Jews claiming that Ezra was the son of God. This may not have necessarily been in reference to the jews of Madina. Some mufasiroon speak about Uzair, a man who lived around 450 BC who was a like mujadid for the jews, that they revered him so much. The texts of the Jews were supposedly lost and he supposedly re-wrote the old testament and re-recorded the laws of the jews. So, he was revered to the extent that later peoples believed him to be the son of God, a&#8217;uthu billah. However, not all Jews believe this, similarly in Christianity, not all sects believe that Jesus was either. </p>
<p>Jazakum Allahu khairan<br />
Asalamu alaikum</p>
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		<title>By: gohar</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-15675</link>
		<dc:creator>gohar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 04:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-15675</guid>
		<description>I have found that some Christians have heard that muslims believe in Jesus but still do not UNDERSTAND what we mean by that.

I usually start off by explaining that we believe in Jesus, but not in Paul, since this not only explains our rejection of the trinity, but allows them to very quickly themselves see  our historical and logical viewpoint on the matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have found that some Christians have heard that muslims believe in Jesus but still do not UNDERSTAND what we mean by that.</p>
<p>I usually start off by explaining that we believe in Jesus, but not in Paul, since this not only explains our rejection of the trinity, but allows them to very quickly themselves see  our historical and logical viewpoint on the matter.</p>
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		<title>By: ibnabeeomar</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-15608</link>
		<dc:creator>ibnabeeomar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:20:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-15608</guid>
		<description>B - i&#039;m ok with saying its possible unicorns existed :)

despite attempt at using this kind of rhetoric to prove your point, it doesn&#039;t actually disprove the quran, especially in light of all the other facts that are found in it. you should read it sometime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>B &#8211; i&#8217;m ok with saying its possible unicorns existed :)</p>
<p>despite attempt at using this kind of rhetoric to prove your point, it doesn&#8217;t actually disprove the quran, especially in light of all the other facts that are found in it. you should read it sometime.</p>
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		<title>By: ibnabeeomar</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-15607</link>
		<dc:creator>ibnabeeomar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-15607</guid>
		<description>

&lt;blockquote&gt;1) What do we do when a christian seems to genuinely see no problem with Allah (Allah forbid) having a son - Allah forbid?&lt;/blockquote&gt;




How do they attribute to Him a son, and He has no wife.... In this life, we would consider this to be something immoral (even christians), so why do they attribute it to their Creator? 

there&#039;s a story of one classical scholar, who met a christian priest. as you know, they stay celibate. so when he met him, he asked him something along the lines of &quot;how&#039;s the family? how are the wife and kids?&quot; and everyone became offended, that how can you ask him such a question when you know they don&#039;t have kids!! he said, they free themselves from it, but then attribute it to Allah? 


&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;quote&gt;2) my second question: if and when they get slightly abusive and being gentle doesn’t seem to be working at all, then is it really right for me to let them abuse the honour of a muslim (beit even myself)?&lt;/quote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;



like both papers have said, just convey the message. if they get abusive, just stop and leave.. why let it escalate? 

also for some reason the first question reminded me of this article:
http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/29/what-to-make-of-mother-teresas-crisis-of-faith/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>1) What do we do when a christian seems to genuinely see no problem with Allah (Allah forbid) having a son &#8211; Allah forbid?</p></blockquote>
<p>How do they attribute to Him a son, and He has no wife&#8230;. In this life, we would consider this to be something immoral (even christians), so why do they attribute it to their Creator? </p>
<p>there&#8217;s a story of one classical scholar, who met a christian priest. as you know, they stay celibate. so when he met him, he asked him something along the lines of &#8220;how&#8217;s the family? how are the wife and kids?&#8221; and everyone became offended, that how can you ask him such a question when you know they don&#8217;t have kids!! he said, they free themselves from it, but then attribute it to Allah? </p>
<blockquote><p>
<quote>2) my second question: if and when they get slightly abusive and being gentle doesn’t seem to be working at all, then is it really right for me to let them abuse the honour of a muslim (beit even myself)?</quote></p></blockquote>
<p>like both papers have said, just convey the message. if they get abusive, just stop and leave.. why let it escalate? </p>
<p>also for some reason the first question reminded me of this article:<br />
<a href="http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/29/what-to-make-of-mother-teresas-crisis-of-faith/" rel="nofollow">http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/29/what-to-make-of-mother-teresas-crisis-of-faith/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Who&#8217;s up for a little challenge? &#171;</title>
		<link>http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-15561</link>
		<dc:creator>Who&#8217;s up for a little challenge? &#171;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://muslimmatters.org/2008/03/15/dialogue-with-the-people-of-the-book/#comment-15561</guid>
		<description>[...] Winners: A Foundation for Establishing Dialogue with People of the Book Dialogue with People of the Book       [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Winners: A Foundation for Establishing Dialogue with People of the Book Dialogue with People of the Book       [...]</p>
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