as for this:
>Without the knowledge of Arabic, usool >al-fiqh, hadith and the various sciences of >Islam, it is arrogant to believe that one has >the faculty to deduct rulings for oneself.

granted not everyone has the ability to extract rulings and that was not what was being said. However, anyone to whom a ruling is given does have a right to ask for where the EVIDENCE from Quran and Sunnah came from and whether or not that evidence fits the context to which this ruling is being applied. Asking for daleel and an explanation of that daleel is a right of a Muslim no matter how much you, your sheikhs, or the dictators in the Muslim world wish to tape people’s mouths shut and forbid that.

>You still of course haven’t answered my >question regarding your “Shayookh” and I >use this term generally. Who are the people >that you mention you ask “as many as you >can”? It seems that you wish to hide this >fact, because if you ask most of us, which >scholars we look up to, there won’t be much >hesitation in laying it out.

This may prove shocking, and you may need to step out of your bubble a bit, but not everyone worships sheikhs or practices blind madhabism. Each of the four imams always emphasized that they could be right with the possibility of being wrong, and if they were in error, their opinion was to be discarded and the stronger opinion was to be taken.

Furthermore, Islam does not have a centralized authority; there is no universally recognized council of scholars or clerics who speak on behalf of all Muslims or Islam.

With freedom from clerical authority, however, comes the responsibility to engage in the debate over the true meaning of Islam. Islamic law states that silence is an indication of consent. If Muslims do not reject the perverted interpretations of the Qur’an offered by the state-employed sheikhs you worship and cited (detailed in the links i posted above) or people who justify violence in the name of Islam they will have shirked their responsibility to define the real meaning of Islam.
So for the last time, I worship Allah (swt) and follow the sunnah of his last messenger and not sheikhs. You are free to do otherwise as there is no compulsion in islam.

>So, let me cut to the chase, and ask you >what you feel about the “jihadists” who are >causing havoc for the Muslims, like OBL? I >only ask you this because your talk is very >similar to the talk of these people,

I consider the “jihadists” the same way I consider the assimilationists/integrationists — enantiomers/mirror images or 2 sides of the same coin really. Considering:

a. the “Jihadists” claim that their senseless acts of nihilistic violence have sanction in islam and that the end “benefit” is for Muslims, when all the empirical EVIDENCE points in the opposite direction — More muslims are killed and oppressed as a result of their actions and more harm than good is done.
You and your “sheikhs” who endorse this line of assimilation and cronyism use the same justifications (this is “benefit” for Muslims) with the same disastrous results — Bush elected to power and twice as many Muslims killed and oppressed as under the previous administration.

b. the “jihadists” claim that they have “shaikhs” i.e. Bin Laden, Abdullah Azzam, who give “fatwas” sanctioning their murderous acts in the name of Islam and that any questioning of the “fatwa” amounts to criticizing the individual/group and is thus off limits.
your defense of the “voting fatwa” echoes this nearly symettrically. The fact that your sole claim for “evidence” for voting is a council of saudi govt. funded “shaikhs” putting out a “fatwa” means that any questioning of that “fatwa” the saudi govt. that funds them and its motives is off limits — you have to bow to a “shaikh” before you can ask or be a “shaikh” in order to question it!

c. “Jihadists” claim that when Muslims are killed as a result of their actions, they should be given the benefit of the doubt as their “intentions” were pure. They don’t really take any responsibility for their actions or its effects.
When Bush murders Muslims after having people like you elect them, you make the exact same argument:
“Many mistakes will be made and we will only grow if we learn from them, not run and hide after making them. We joined the Bush bandwagon because he did make certain comments that were positive for Muslims,…”

So NO for the record i don’t follow the “jihadists” nor you and your sheikhs as the two use the same bankrupted logic to arrive at the same disastrous end. You are simply one and the same.

>Please do not spin the questions with 10 >paragraphs of unrelated materials and more >accusations… I would appreciate it if you >would stick to the questions being asked. >People generally don’t read long drawn >comments, thats just a suggestion.

Answering a cheap insult like this is easy. However, the only one that was and still is “spinning” anything is you. You began this thread with a posting justifying voting based on a fatwa put out by “sheikhs”. Links and evidence were posted showing that these VERY SAME sheikhs put out fatwas justifying U.S. troops in saudi arabia in 1991, women led prayer, women breastfeeding men to make them mahram, ALONGSIDE VOTING. hence, you are not telling the entire truth of WHAT ELSE they have said in the past besides voting, seems the zionists are not the only ones who try and conceal the truth.

secondly, you were asked DIRECT QUESTIONS which is at the heart of this issue and which were never answered:

>a. Is Ruling by Islam fardh?
>b. Is voting for politicians to commit haram >(to rule by kufr instead) something that is >allowed in the shari’ah?

If you still desire to preserve any credibility you can feel free to attempt an answer (an NO your sheikh is NOT an evidence), if not your silence will speak volumes.

lastly, I will not make any more posts on this thread or blog as I don’t normally engage in “discussions” with people who have already made up their minds on an issue — for the very same reason that i don’t waste time arguing with Jehovah’s witnesses or Mormons. They have their minds set on what their beliefs are and despite presentation of rational proofs to the contrary, one is to believe that Jesus is “lord” and “savior” purely on “blind faith”. Animals are conditioned this way, human beings were given an intellect and a mind in order to be able to exercise and use it. In some cases it is a “sin” and a crime to do so.

regards,
Kashif

It is called due dilligence.
Obediance is to the naql (the text) not the aql (the mind).

Very easy to say but very difficult to implement, esp. when the texts could have various interpretations. This is a good slogan, but that’s about all it is. In fact, your strategy of finding out haram and halal could be a recipe for disaster, either in the form of extremism of completely liberalism. Without the knowledge of Arabic, usool al-fiqh, hadith and the various sciences of Islam, it is arrogant to believe that one has the faculty to deduct rulings for oneself.

Now you say that you ask as “many people as you can”, but you are assuming that laymen have the ability to distinguish and discern evidences. You will not find scholars saying this, and I suggest that you read the The truth about taqlid if you care. The more one learns Islamic sciences, the more one realizes that they are not as black and white as one may have originally thought about them.

You still of course haven’t answered my question regarding your “Shayookh” and I use this term generally. Who are the people that you mention you ask “as many as you can”? It seems that you wish to hide this fact, because if you ask most of us, which scholars we look up to, there won’t be much hesitation in laying it out. So, let me cut to the chase, and ask you what you feel about the “jihadists” who are causing havoc for the Muslims, like OBL? I only ask you this because your talk is very similar to the talk of these people, who, like you, believe that nearly all the Shayookh are “bought and sold” (I hope that you are prepared for the consequence of such a heavy accusation on the Day of Judgment if you are wrong). So then please tell us if you this is where you are coming from, and if not, then which scholars should Muslims go to? Even to do what you suggest, ask for answers with proofs?

Please do not spin the questions with 10 paragraphs of unrelated materials and more accusations… I would appreciate it if you would stick to the questions being asked. People generally don’t read long drawn comments, thats just a suggestion.

this is going in circles. Especially since it seems you have already predetermined what you are going to do and are simply finding ways to justify it.

1. If i am going to conduct an act or do something individually, I will spend months researching it and ask as many people as I possibly can (even those who I consider shallow and weak in their understanding). But when I ask, I will ask seeking WHAT EVIDENCE do they sight claiming so and so is halal or haram. One clear example is that many of these Islamic banks are simply using and charging riba by another name, while others are doing their best to comply though there terms are very difficult. I am not gonna go by a bank’s claim that it is “100% shari’ah compliant” rather look at the terms of the contract, take notes on it, and then research it up and down. It is called due dilligence.
Obediance is to the naql (the text) not the aql (the mind).

2. Whatever misjudgments i’ve ever made have been individual ones i.e. they have made a detrimental impact on my life. However, I never claimed to do a haram in the name of Islam or in the name of a community using its name the way these organizations have. This article here explains the concepts of
“amr bil maruf wa nahy anil munkar”
“enjoining the good and forbiding the evil.” which is mentioned over 70 times in the Quran.
The early tribes of bani Isra’il were explicitly condemned by Allah (swt) because they saw each other’s munkar (evil) and no one condemned it using the old “who are you to judge me?” line:

http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/movement00/amr-maruf.htm

please read the paragraph talking about lying on an individual basis vs. lying as a community or in the name of a collective and why the latter is infinitely worse.

3. Are you really that criminally naive to believe that shaikhs cannot be bought and sold like commodities on the open market?
Do you really think that this is something new or that the neo-cons are not smart enough to think of this? Isn’t this what Petraus is currently doing with the sunni tribes and shaikhs in Iraq? Here is one drag queen look alike from inside the green zone:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/07/31/MNGDM80L0P1.DTL

Napoleon Bonaparte when he took over Egypt and installed a puppet dynasty (using Ismailis) he couldn’t get the shaikhs to legitimize this so he set about killing the ones that said it was haram and installing and funding the ones that agreed with it. This was the notes of one sincere brother talking about how it was done at Al Azhar and how lasting colonialism was perpetrated:

http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/features99/dest-west.htm

If the U.S. had sophistication like the French and British they would be doing this over time so that their occupation is a lasting one.

4. Lastly, if you are going to hide behind worshipping scholars and using taqlid to excuse away laziness and deliberate ignorance. Than I would only ask that you be consistent. The attached articles on that subject that you have posted openly say that if one chooses to practice taqlid one should do it in “all things” not “shop around”. Therefore, if you accept “voting” from these shaikhs, you MUST accept the following:

a. you have NO right to oppose the war in Iraq since these same shaikhs legitimized the U.S. occupation of Saudi Arabia in the 1991 Mecca Document fatwa. The no fly zone enforced under Clinton from 1992-2001 (in which 500,000 kids died a year) sprung from this as well as the neo-cons second invasion in 2003. I posted the link on this earlier.

b. You should be breast feeding every single
male that you wish to consider a mahram per this fatwa recounted in the NY Times:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/11/news/fatwa.php

this is the best line which was from an egyptian newspaper on the subject:

‘Men are breast crazy beasts’, Sheikh Ezzat Attiya told viewers…’so breastfeeding her male colleagues should give a woman a sense of safety and security….By suckling them, she will make them feel like children, religious and biologically……I suggest a minimum of 5 sucks for each male colleague’.

Sheikh Ezzat Attiya, a controversial cleric who chairs the Department of Hadith at Al-Azhar University, insisted his advice was consistent with Sharia Law.

c. According to the same article above, drinking the prophet’s urine will help you “smell the fragrance of jannah”. So con artists in Egypt and Syria have been selling vials of lemone juice and water claiming it was the Prophet’s urine. Again, if you wish to practice taqlid please be consistent.

d. You should endorse women led prayer.
Why? Because the “shaikh” of al Azhar gave a fatwa endorsing it to the “progressive” Muslims when they were pullling that stunt:

“On Arab television, Sheikh Ali Gum’a states that women are permitted to lead mixed-gender congregational prayers as long as the COMMUNITY AGREES TO IT. ”

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/2005/03/thank_you_sheik.php

e. There are also fatwas endorsing gay marriage and homosexuality, again you have no right to oppose them if that is the case.
the link is in Arabic so i will see if i can get a translation.

f. You shouldn’t oppose “Islamofascism” awareness week because there were “traditional” sheikhs who not only invented the term but used it in interviews themselves, (as per Stephen Schwartz).

“Yes, I think there is a real risk from ignorant people who have no respect for divergent opinions. There are MUSLIM FASCISTS who are intellectually bankrupt. The only way they can argue is to eliminate the voices they don’t agree with.”

source (last paragraph): http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,564960,00.html

U.S. army manual quoting another “traditional” scholar here:

“What Qutb fails to inform his vanguard, however, is that the code of conduct he subsequently elaborated in his commentary on the Koran matches that of Carrel much more than Muhammad’s own Traditions. The result is not an indigenous form of governance, but a Third World version of IslamoFascism.”

Abdel-Hakim Murad commenting on Syed Qutbs tafseer of the Quran.
Fi Zilal al-Qur’an (In the shades of the Qur’an)

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/07spring/eikmeier.pdf
————————————————
In the end there is Allah (swt) and his messenger and there is kufr. The two cannot be one and the same no matter how many “sheikhs” and “scholars” try to blur that definition.

salaam aleikum,
Kashif

2) I am sure you have made some misjudgments in your life, haven’t you? That you chose to support something or follow a course of action between two choices that later turned out to be wrong? So many of the Muslim organizations made a mistake in 2000 (voting for Bush), a costly mistake no doubt, but still a mistake. And we know that everything that happens is good for Muslims, though we may not know the wisdom and see the goodness.

3) Do you really believe that the scholars from around the globe issue these fatwas and rulings without evidences and proofs? What worldly motivations do these scholars in the East have to recommend voting for people in the West? Don’t you think it is defamatory and Islamically wrong to accuse scholars of having ulterior motivations besides the deen? Who are we to judge their intentions and their sincerity?

interesting response.

1. I didn’t “diss” any organization, rather put up links showing what past associations and partnerships they kept which brought us to this point today — Muslims having “elected” Bush in 2000 who then subsequently went on to spend nearly $1.2 trillion to bomb, kill, and occupy other Muslims in both Iraq and Afghanistan. These people have blood on their hands, pure and simple.

2. I don’t worship sheikhs, organizations, or individuals. By worship, let me be 100% blunt:
“NO SHEIKH, SCHOLAR, OR ORGANIZATION HAS THE POWER TO MAKE THE HARAM HALAL NO MATTER HOW LONG HIS BEARD HIS, HOW MANY FOLLOWERS HE CLAIMS, OR HOW MANY LETTERS THAT FOLLOW HIS NAME”

this hadeeth should make things clearer:

Uday was one of the leaders of his tribe, and his father, Haatim Al-Taa’i, was famous for his generosity. ‘Uday then proceeded to Madina and the people there began talking about his coming. When he entered upon the Messenger of Allah, sallAllahu ‘alayhi wasallam, he was wearing a silver cross around his neck; the Messenger of Allah, sallAllahu ‘alayhi wasallam, was reciting the verse
‘They have taken their rabbis and priests as lords other than God, and the Messiah, son of Mary; and they were commanded to worship none but One God. There is no god but He, glory be to Him above what they associate with Him!” (5:31)

When he heard this ‘Uday said: “We did not worship them”. He (the Prophet) replied: “Yes you did. They (the Rabbis and Priests) made what was Halal into Haram for them, and what was Haram into Halal for them, and they (the people) followed them; THAT was their worshipping them”.

and I agree with you, many people use taqlid and fatwa shopping as a cover for choosing to remain ignorant rather than researching and educating themselves about an issue. If that is the case, you are more than welcome to continue, since I cannot preach to the converted.

3. I didn’t “make up” my own ijtihad or madhab. A basic rule of usul is that the person making a claim that X or Y was/is halal or is from Islam has to furnish the EVIDENCE for that act BEFORE acting. This is well known basic rule of fiqh.

4. I don’t claim any authority per se but as a Muslim I have a right to question those who self declare themselves as “leaders” of Muslims and claim to act and endorse politicians in my name i.e. in the name of Muslims/Islam. Who gave them this authority? You? Uncle Sam? the Saudis?
The lack of public accountability is something that is common in the dictatorships that dominate the Muslim World, and as the link from MER shows, permeates “American” Muslim organizations as well. Everything from the finances (with Libyans and Saudis funneling money thru middlemen) to the political side with the endorsement of Bush (to date NOT ONE individual has publicly apologized or resigned for that decision — WHY?)
With no public accountability of “sheikhs” and organizations, it is a miracle that anything gets done at all actually.

5. In the end if someone wants to do something they will find a way to do it, even seeking out others to legitimize their acts. Human beings were given free choice and free will by Allah (swt) for this very reason. Know that even if you do decide to pursue this course of action(s) you aren’t fooling anyone but yourself.

regards,
K

So, let me ask you a couple of answers and I would appreciate straight-up answers:

1) Which scholars do you actually follow? And not to let you escape via the taqleed clause… if you tell us that you don’t follow any scholars, then which scholars you look up to or admire?
2) If you don’t follow any scholars, and follow your own “ijtihad”, where did you get the authority to do so? What have you acquired in terms of Islamic knowledge to tell the Ummah what is halal and what is haram over and above the scholars of the Ummah?

So, let’s get this out of the way because it seems that we are arguing on two fundamentally different platforms.

salaam aleikum

rather interesting. I will try and keep this brief and to be fair, attach an article detailing how the Democratic party used self-promoters and “American” Muslim organizations to promote its own agenda.

1. >We CHOOSE to live in such a country >maybe because we feel an Islamic system >does not exist elsewhere.

a. Many Muslims (including converts) were born and raised here. They are not going anywhere nor do they feel they have to. The America “love it or leave it” argument doesn’t work on non-immigrants and is a cop-out to run away from confronting difficult issues ideological and political issues. Furthermore, the only one’s who have the right to say this, are Native Americans, and they have been deliberately confined onto reservations as a matter of national policy stretching back to colonial times.
b. If there is no masjid around anywhere in a locale, does that mean i stop praying? similarly, if Islam is NOT implemented anywhere, does that mean I stop working for it?

2. >IF there is any candidate (non-Muslim, of >course) in your countries who IS NOT >anti-Islam; IS anti-war, anti-imperialism, >pro-justice, pro-freedom, blah, blah, blah… >IF such a man exists and he is sincere (and >this is the difficult part to determine, but >must be done)… should you (and your fellow >Muslims) not then vote-in such a candidate >(or at least try to) ONLY for the sake of your >brothers and sisters (and NOT because you >support him)? What reason is there not to >do so,

Allah (swt) is the reason. The act of legislation (just like creation) is one of his 99 names and is his attributes. This is why he is called al Hakim (or the judge or arbiter).
This is explicitly laid out in surah al Maida v. 47-50 and is covered in more detail in the link I gave above. There is some textual evidence that would also indicate that one who knows this and deliberately goes about disobeying Him in this is committing shirk (associating partners with God).

3. Securing the release of Sheikh Al Tamimi

a. Could I commit haram to accomplish a halal i.e. could i set up a liquor store in black neighborhood and use the proceeds to fund Sheikh Al Tamimi’s legal fees to secure his release? why not?
b. similarly if the act of legislation and law giving is an attribute of Allah (Swt) am i staying true to the message of Allah (swt) by disobeying him to secure my own much needed benefit?
c. What did the prophet (saw) do or NOT do when Bilal was tortured?
d. There were many “Progressive” Muslims who were very happy to see him go to jail,
and said so on their blogs and podcasts.

The deafening silence of these “American” Muslim organizations at his trial and conviction speaks for itself. It is non-Muslim legal scholars (such as Johnathon Turley at George Washing Univ.) who are left to take up his case purely on the basis of fearing the Bush Administration is using his case as an attempt to grab more power.

Very similar to how the AMC were delighted to see Omar Abdel Rahman go to jail in the early 1990s after the first World Trade Center bombing and issued a press release praising his convicition. In the end, self interest and self preservation trumps any superficial loyalty to Islam and Muslims these people profess.

and i’ll close with this well written article by the group MER run by Mark Bruzonsky (leftist Jew from Chomsky circles). Having talked to some non-Muslim staffers and govt. aides, the article is pretty accurate in their opinion:
—————————-
source: http://www.middleeast.org/archives/1998_05_30.htm

salaam aleikum,
Kashif

Jazzak Allaahu Khayr for your heartfelt and beautiful thoughts. May Allaah (swt) free Shaykh Ali al-Timimi, Imam Jamil Al-Amin.

If I thought by casting a vote for someone that they would be freed, I would do so.

Such is not the case…we have a harder road to follow.

The dua’ of a sincere and righteous person is worth much more than a vote.

Allaah knows best.