That we have more knowledge ABOUT non-Muslims in Canada, than non-Muslims know ABOUT US.

Which was one of two positions I was trying my darndest to wrench out of this board. I feel like I’ve gotten what I wanted, and I’m very happy now.

I’ll just say in ending that I don’t suspect that this is true, though. I suspect that both peoples have equal knowledge, though differing types, and that neither is ignorant. But I guess I could be wrong.

It is possible that in some countries M is > N and in others the reverse because of the majority/minority issue. I also agree with UmmReem that part of being a Muslim teaches you a lot about Judaism and Christianity, not all of it or remotely close to that… just more than the reverse.

No, I did not make that conclusion. I said that, if the premise is true, EITHER that is the conclusion OR the conclusion is that non-Muslims aren’t deficient because they make up for X > Y by having more knowledge of themselves then Muslims have of themselves. You only listed the first half of my conclusion as if it was the whole thing!

I don’t think I’m applying analytical formula any moreso than you are when you say that X > Y, which is what you were the first to contend. In that relation you say that knowledge can exist in amounts and so can be bigger or smaller than other amounts of knowledge, which is all that I’m saying. If knowledge can’t exist in amounts then certainly X cannot be greater than Y, as they are defined here!

Let’s continue using symbol systems because actually I like symbolic logic, even if it is not formal.

Let’s keep the X and Y you have. So X > Y.

Say M is the average knowledge that Muslims have in total. Say N is the average knowledge that non-Muslims have in total. Say P is the average amount of knowledge that Muslims have of themselves. Say Q is the average amount of knowledge that non-Muslims have of themselves. And, as you defined, X is the average amount of knowledge that Muslims have of non-Muslims and Y is the average amount of knowledge that non-Muslims have of Muslims.

So M = P + X. And N = Q + Y. Would you agree?

But, you say that X is greater than Y. In that case wouldn’t you agree that in order for M and N to be equal, then Q would have to be greater than P?

That is:

If M = N and M = P + X and N = Q + Y and X > Y,
then Q > P. ?

Could you possibly contend otherwise? And that is what I’ve been contending.

But we can agree to disagree, that fine with me. Obviously any discussion has its expiry date.

Umm Reem: I do believe you, but Judaism and Christianity aren’t the entirety of non-Muslim topics which is what we’re comparing Islam with here. I don’t know Arabic, but certainly quantum mechanics, fugue, computational theory of the mind, Esperanto, and many other non-Muslim topics, which are central to the lives of many non-Muslims, aren’t mentioned in the Quran or Hadith? I would say in Canada there’s more involvement with topics like gadgets, cars, movies, television, celebrities and video games than there is with Christianity, but none of those things are talked about in Islam are they?

in ESL ‘cuz he *looked* like he didn’t speak English!

It must be the gujarati accent

just kidding… that is quite an example of stereotyping… I mean they could probably have just asked him or spoken to him in English to figure out whether he needed ESL.

I just remembered something that, while not exactly bigoted, was annoying nonetheless: my youngest brother was put into ESL without my parents even being consulted, simply because he’s a visible ethnic minority (he looks 100% desi) – ESL, of all things! English is the only language we speak at home!
Anyway, when my parents found out about it they were pretty mad… the school didn’t even bother asking them, they just put little Z. in ESL ‘cuz he *looked* like he didn’t speak English!

Whereas, Christians and Jews don’t believe in our Prophet neither do they ‘have’ to learn about Islam. So they don’t know as much about Islam as Muslims do about Christianity and Judaism.

Since Christianity is the main religion of both US and Canada, Muslims know more about their religion. This will not be the case with other religions like Taoism, or Budhism, etc. because Muslims don’t believe in their leaders/prophets etc.

What Pim is saying is that there is an average level of knowledge for all people, say “K”. And lets say the knowledge of Muslims on average is a, and the knowledge of non-Muslims on average is b. So, Pim is saying that in order for avg K = avg a = avg b, it does implies that if Muslims have some knowledge of non-Muslims, say “X”, so then the non-Muslims have to have an equivalent “Y” knowledge about Muslims, so that X=Y, in order for our relation of K = a = b to be true.

And the conclusion it seems to be imply is that if X > Y (i.e. Muslims have more knowledge about non-Muslim customs than the reverse), then non-Muslims are henceforth deficient in some way! That is quite ludicrous.

First of all, knowledge is not something where you can apply analytical formulae because it is made up of a million different things with different groups possessing different ideas. Secondly, even if we assume that on average non-Muslims and Muslims have equal knowledge ceteris paribus, and that Muslims have greater knowledge about Christians than the reverse in Western nations, this does NOT imply superiority or a greater desire for knowledge by Muslims. This is just how the society works… minorities always absorb more about the majorities than the reverse. I am also curious as to why, if this indeed an inferiority argument, it does not apply to minorities in Muslim countries?? It is EXACTLY the same.

So, if I were to apply Pim’s logic, I can expand the bubble around the whole world. In that case the knowledge levels would balance each other (and I am talking about religious traditions, because we will be naive to not admit that the Western secular knowledge is far ahead in terms of sciences, social studies, etc.).

Pim, if you don’t get what I said or if you disagree, I think we will just have to AGREE to DISAGREE, otherwise we’ll give folks a headache

We could apply my argument just as well to your example Turkey but with non-Muslims instead of Catholics. But we can’t refer in true analogy just to Catholics, because Catholics and Muslims aren’t the totality of people, and neither is Catholicism and Islam the totality of topcs that can be known. Whereas Muslims and non-Muslims are the totality of people and Islam and non-Islamic things are the totality of topics that can be known. Surely every person in the world is either a Muslim or a non-Muslim. But not everyone in the world is either a Muslim or a Catholic. Do you see from these considerations how your example of Muslims and Catholics in Turkey is not a perfect analogy to the example of Muslims and non-Muslims in Canada?