Comments on: The Ruins of Traditional Islam http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/ Discourses in the Intellectual Traditions, Political Situation, and Social Ethics of Muslim Life Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:17:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Open Thread Sunday 7-6-08 | MuslimMatters.org http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-22264 Open Thread Sunday 7-6-08 | MuslimMatters.org Sun, 06 Jul 2008 16:57:31 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-22264 [...]  http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/ [...] [...]  http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/ [...]

]]> By: muslimmatters.org » And One Year Ago, MM was Born http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-15351 muslimmatters.org » And One Year Ago, MM was Born Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:50:41 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-15351 [...] having it exorcised soon after. 9. Making new friendships & upsetting a few with this, while ruining others. 8. Lots of people hitting on MM about sex. 7. Commemorating a hero from VT, and a [...] [...] having it exorcised soon after. 9. Making new friendships & upsetting a few with this, while ruining others. 8. Lots of people hitting on MM about sex. 7. Commemorating a hero from VT, and a [...]

]]> By: Nuance « أندلس http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-13363 Nuance « أندلس Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:52:51 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-13363 [...] a bitter present?” In seeking an answer, the grave worship seems like an obvious place to start. Full article « New in Links He صلى الله عليه وسلم said… [...] [...] a bitter present?” In seeking an answer, the grave worship seems like an obvious place to start. Full article « New in Links He صلى الله عليه وسلم said… [...]

]]> By: If your head should explode from the size you are letting it grow to… I will be standing over there… « Writeous Sister Speaks http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-5457 If your head should explode from the size you are letting it grow to… I will be standing over there… « Writeous Sister Speaks Tue, 14 Aug 2007 17:56:23 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-5457 [...] August 14, 2007 If your head should explode from the size you are letting it grow to… I will be standing over there… Posted by Aaminah under Suluk , Ummah Issues , Introspection , Islam  A sister and I were discussing just the other day the arrogance of phrases like “reviving the Sunnah”. As if the Sunnah was near death, as if we are the sole keepers of the flame of the Sunnah. The Sunnah has existed and been understood and applied all along by those better than us. It was this conversation that I thought of when I read “The Ruins of Traditional Islam”. [...] [...] August 14, 2007 If your head should explode from the size you are letting it grow to… I will be standing over there… Posted by Aaminah under Suluk , Ummah Issues , Introspection , Islam  A sister and I were discussing just the other day the arrogance of phrases like “reviving the Sunnah”. As if the Sunnah was near death, as if we are the sole keepers of the flame of the Sunnah. The Sunnah has existed and been understood and applied all along by those better than us. It was this conversation that I thought of when I read “The Ruins of Traditional Islam”. [...]

]]> By: Musa Maguire http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-5439 Musa Maguire Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:21:17 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-5439 At the risk of this turning into a name-calling, back-biting post, I will close the comments after a few concluding remarks: First, please keep in mind that I am writing this as a poor, uneducated Muslim. Ever since accepting Islam, I have faced all the clamoring voices swirling around my head, claiming to represent the final word, the saved sect, the all-in-one solution, the only website you need, etc. There were times where I really wanted to take one of those easy answers. I just wanted the security and stability of looking no further. Alhamdulillah, my intellectual laziness, which can be quite substantial, did not overcome intellectual honesty. This article addressed to the marketing of "traditional Islam" as one of the easy solutions that circulates among Muslims. I do not wish to posit a definition of traditional Islam, as some have requested, becasue I really don't think that one exists. I think it is a more a way for certain groups to package their perspective, on a variety of issues, as the real, authoritative Islam...as is done by groups with completely opposing perspectives. As I've said repeatedly throughout this post, there is much I find attractive, and even exemplary, about those who describe themselves as "traditional Muslims", but there is also much that I find problematic--the idealization of either a pre-colonial or pre-Wahhabi past, the ambiguity on issues like grave worship, and the tendency toward sectarian polemics. This article expressed my personal experience-- my attractions, curiosities, disappointments. and disgust. In some ways, my recent trip to Fez was a watershed of sorts on these issues, so it was worth expressing. For those of you that I've antagonized, I would offer one bit of advice, if you can bear to hear it. The simplistic and binary thinking of traditional vs. salafi, or madhhab vs. no madhhab, or tasawwuf vs. taxkiyah, etc. etc. is a temporary solace. It will only take you so far, and often leads to a feeling of burnout (which doesn't only happen to Salafis!) And for the scholars who promote such things, all I can say is "fear Allah." Do not use your little slice of knowledge to toy with the hearts and souls of us simple people. Anyone who wishes to continue this discussion, or scold me , or advise me, can email me at maguire at aucegypt.edu. By the way, I just wanted to mention one other personal experience: Allah has blessed me with several children, and blessed my wife with relatively easy deliveries, and I have both sons and daughters. Alhamdulillah washukru lillah. And Allah bestowed this bounty on me while I directed my supplication to Him alone. I did not seek the intercession of any saints, and I am certainly not a saint myself! What I can say from my personal experience is to trust in the mercy and benevolence of Allah alone. It is sufficient. At the risk of this turning into a name-calling, back-biting post, I will close the comments after a few concluding remarks:

First, please keep in mind that I am writing this as a poor, uneducated Muslim. Ever since accepting Islam, I have faced all the clamoring voices swirling around my head, claiming to represent the final word, the saved sect, the all-in-one solution, the only website you need, etc. There were times where I really wanted to take one of those easy answers. I just wanted the security and stability of looking no further. Alhamdulillah, my intellectual laziness, which can be quite substantial, did not overcome intellectual honesty.

This article addressed to the marketing of “traditional Islam” as one of the easy solutions that circulates among Muslims. I do not wish to posit a definition of traditional Islam, as some have requested, becasue I really don’t think that one exists. I think it is a more a way for certain groups to package their perspective, on a variety of issues, as the real, authoritative Islam…as is done by groups with completely opposing perspectives.

As I’ve said repeatedly throughout this post, there is much I find attractive, and even exemplary, about those who describe themselves as “traditional Muslims”, but there is also much that I find problematic–the idealization of either a pre-colonial or pre-Wahhabi past, the ambiguity on issues like grave worship, and the tendency toward sectarian polemics. This article expressed my personal experience– my attractions, curiosities, disappointments. and disgust. In some ways, my recent trip to Fez was a watershed of sorts on these issues, so it was worth expressing.

For those of you that I’ve antagonized, I would offer one bit of advice, if you can bear to hear it. The simplistic and binary thinking of traditional vs. salafi, or madhhab vs. no madhhab, or tasawwuf vs. taxkiyah, etc. etc. is a temporary solace. It will only take you so far, and often leads to a feeling of burnout (which doesn’t only happen to Salafis!) And for the scholars who promote such things, all I can say is “fear Allah.” Do not use your little slice of knowledge to toy with the hearts and souls of us simple people.

Anyone who wishes to continue this discussion, or scold me , or advise me, can email me at maguire at aucegypt.edu.

By the way, I just wanted to mention one other personal experience: Allah has blessed me with several children, and blessed my wife with relatively easy deliveries, and I have both sons and daughters. Alhamdulillah washukru lillah. And Allah bestowed this bounty on me while I directed my supplication to Him alone. I did not seek the intercession of any saints, and I am certainly not a saint myself! What I can say from my personal experience is to trust in the mercy and benevolence of Allah alone. It is sufficient.

]]> By: ibnabeeomar http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-5436 ibnabeeomar Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:11:56 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-5436 you know when i saw those sunnipath links i thought that it might be some funky stuff that could probably be taken either way, but with that caveat i must say - that last link is quite blatant and shocking you know when i saw those sunnipath links i thought that it might be some funky stuff that could probably be taken either way, but with that caveat i must say – that last link is quite blatant and shocking

]]> By: NeitherSalafiNorTraditional http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-5434 NeitherSalafiNorTraditional Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:03:15 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-5434 For those who are so keen to defend ´traditional´Islam, please read the following blatant justifications for shirk... 1- asking the dead for your needs is similar to taking medicine http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=3752&CATE=24 2-all sunni schools are in agreement that this ´shirk´is valid http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=143&CATE=24 3-the hadeeth of the blind man (which could possibly be used for tawassul bi-dhat an-nabi) can be extrapolated as evidence to make duaa directly to the dead (read last paragraph) http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=141&CATE=24 4- and last but not least´"yes please, continue to make duaa to your dead shaykh, for your are practicing the sunnah...¨ http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=3673&CATE=24 For those who said that this practice is only done by the ignorant folk, by Allah you are correct, but please realize many ´traditionalist´ulamaa are even more ignorant than the real ignorant if they justify such acts.... And BTW I am def NOT a saudi version salafi either, but this practice is just ridiculous. Ask a Hindu and many will tell you similar things as these ´traditionalists´in why they invoke their idols, in fact as we know this was what the people did at time of Rasool and the Quran came down condeming it from beginning to end. For those who are so keen to defend ´traditional´Islam, please read the following blatant justifications for shirk…

1- asking the dead for your needs is similar to taking medicine
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=3752&CATE=24

2-all sunni schools are in agreement that this ´shirk´is valid
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=143&CATE=24

3-the hadeeth of the blind man (which could possibly be used for tawassul bi-dhat an-nabi) can be extrapolated as evidence to make duaa directly to the dead (read last paragraph)
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=141&CATE=24

4- and last but not least´”yes please, continue to make duaa to your dead shaykh, for your are practicing the sunnah…¨
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=3673&CATE=24

For those who said that this practice is only done by the ignorant folk, by Allah you are correct, but please realize many ´traditionalist´ulamaa are even more ignorant than the real ignorant if they justify such acts….

And BTW I am def NOT a saudi version salafi either, but this practice is just ridiculous. Ask a Hindu and many will tell you similar things as these ´traditionalists´in why they invoke their idols, in fact as we know this was what the people did at time of Rasool and the Quran came down condeming it from beginning to end.

]]> By: Amad http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-5431 Amad Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:33:36 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-5431 Right Marc. Most "traditions" or their followers are not monolithic in any case, as interpretations of the same traditions can vary. I believe there are some things that we can all agree on and Br. Musa pointed to one... grave-worshiping, no matter what garb that is enclosed in, is unacceptable. Of course, ignorance and other circumstances lead to ignorant behavior, but recognition is the first step to curing a disease in the Ummah. Those who defend mausoleums should recognize what behaviors these mausoleums are encouraging. On a related issue, I came across an article recently that seems to judge the legacy of scholars based on the conditions of their burial place! I intend to discuss the great ignorance and the despicable nature of such an analysis, which would seemingly place the lady of the Taj Mahal above the scholar buried with no other markers than a piece of stone... How sad is our situation when we are looking for beautifications of the world to judge the legacy of the deceased? May Allah forgive all of us. Right Marc. Most “traditions” or their followers are not monolithic in any case, as interpretations of the same traditions can vary.

I believe there are some things that we can all agree on and Br. Musa pointed to one… grave-worshiping, no matter what garb that is enclosed in, is unacceptable. Of course, ignorance and other circumstances lead to ignorant behavior, but recognition is the first step to curing a disease in the Ummah. Those who defend mausoleums should recognize what behaviors these mausoleums are encouraging. On a related issue, I came across an article recently that seems to judge the legacy of scholars based on the conditions of their burial place! I intend to discuss the great ignorance and the despicable nature of such an analysis, which would seemingly place the lady of the Taj Mahal above the scholar buried with no other markers than a piece of stone… How sad is our situation when we are looking for beautifications of the world to judge the legacy of the deceased? May Allah forgive all of us.

]]> By: Marc http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-5430 Marc Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:24:59 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-5430 Your need for a single, glaring definition isn't going to happen. Like most things, "tradition" lies in the beholder. What is traditional for me may not be for you but often it is a tie to a perceived successful past, one that may altered in terms of the fringe but the garment remains the same. And that garment is usual clothed in Nostalgia and misconceptions about a glorious and noble past. It is often seen as either ahistorical or from its inception point forward, history-less, having some form of completed-ness to it. It is often a false universal response to other false universals [such as Modernity or Progressive Islam, etc]. Your need for a single, glaring definition isn’t going to happen. Like most things, “tradition” lies in the beholder. What is traditional for me may not be for you but often it is a tie to a perceived successful past, one that may altered in terms of the fringe but the garment remains the same. And that garment is usual clothed in Nostalgia and misconceptions about a glorious and noble past. It is often seen as either ahistorical or from its inception point forward, history-less, having some form of completed-ness to it. It is often a false universal response to other false universals [such as Modernity or Progressive Islam, etc].

]]> By: AnonyMouse http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-5428 AnonyMouse Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:56:22 +0000 http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/#comment-5428 I think someone needs to write a post on what exactly "traditional" actually means... I'm with Hassan on this one, I'm pretty confused! I think someone needs to write a post on what exactly “traditional” actually means… I’m with Hassan on this one, I’m pretty confused!

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