You say “I ask my Muslim brothers to imagine if they were in that situation – behind a barrier, unable to see or hear, having no means of adding to the discussion – would you tolerate it? Would you feel valued? Would you even bother to be involved?”

Were not the brothers other side of the barrier in that meeting? What is behind and what is front of barrier? Could not it be right or left of the barrier? I have no problem on being one side of barrier and women on other, because it would not be nice of me to go and freak sisters out. Of course hearing and understanding is important, and that is why we have virtual meetings even at work, over phone etc.

Why women have to mix with men to be equal to them? Would a man praying in first row with no khushoo is better than woman praying in her room in her house with khushoo?

On the other hand, is it really difficult understanding khateeb or sheikh if there is barrier? We listen to CDs, but is it equal to listening to sheikh live? Is vertical partition better than horizontal one? In a way men and women would be side by side, but partition in between them? Should we make use of curtain rather than solid thick barrier in masajid? Should we get rid of them all together, and mandate men, not to look back, till sisters leave, and urge sisters to leave immediately once the lecture is finished? Would it increase number of young men attending masajid if they knew there is no barrier between them and women? And then Allah may guide them? Is it slippery slope? Is women attending mosques necessary at all, when their prayer at home is better than prayer at masajid? Would women be comfortable having no barrier in between? Would men be more conscious of presence of women, and may feel uncomfortable? Would they loose their concentration in salah or lecture?

Sister Asiya, in my comment, I raised alternatives as questions. If you can see if anything works. Otherwise what are your suggestions?

1. Meeting, over phone? Is it still issue, while even professional companies all around world use this mean, and there are people working from India and China on projects even. So what is wall? You say like men are not on the other side of barrier, they would have difficulty hearing as well, so why make it women rights issue? They would be facing the same huge wall in meeting

2. For prayer, really I would encourage my wife to stay home, as my wife encourages me to go to mosque for more rewards. We can not stop women from coming to masjid, as it would go against hadith, but we can encourage them to pray at home, because its more rewarding according to hadith.

I guess women want to be like stupid men to feel important, weird.

Whenever Muslim women raise a complaint or objection about a situation like this, even as reasonably as sister Ruth has done, certain people take it upon themselves to denounce them as feminists or whatever.

I think that the arguments were put very reasonably, even saying “had my actions created an uproar in the community, I would have stayed behind the partition, community cohesiveness being more important than one person’s desire for a certain atmosphere”. That’s the best way to go about it, rather than armed with righteous indignation and shrill nagging.

I’ve been in meetings that were far too free, and I’ve been in others that were held with a curtain separating brothers and sisters. Both were equally unproductive for different reasons. With the curtain, even though it wasn’t a brick wall, it somehow made the brothers forget that there were sisters on the other side, and they talked in almost inaudible mutters, so that us sisters felt there was no point in us coming (except as people to be dealt out chores to).

In terms of communication, email groups are pretty effective. But sometimes you need to have meetings in person, and theres more practical ways of keeping modest than having a wall in between.

how MR?

Hassan, I think you’re being pretty harsh here! Sister Ruth isn’t Irshad Manji or Asra Nomani, that she’s calling for mingling of the genders and what not. She’s presenting a valid case on a valid subject – if the men want us women involved in things, then it ought to be done in the most efficient and effective manner (also, of course, 100% Islamically).

At my old Islamic centre, men and women used to work together in organizing many of our programs and activities. We rarely had meetings, because meetings tended to be just talk with little or nothing concrete decided, so we had another system that was partly meeting, partly group emails.

Since the men were the ones who liked to have all the meetings (does it make them feel important?), we’d let them have their meeting – and then we’d have them give us the minutes of the meeting, so that we could get right to the point without having to sit through the hours of argument. After that, if we had criticisms and/or suggestions, we’d send them out in a mass email to everyone, who would thereafter respond.

By the end of the week, everything was pretty much decided and we’d move on with the show – for us, this was quick, efficient, and perfectly Islamic.
(Of course, it probably helped that my parents were both the heads of men and women’s committees, respectively, and so we could get stuff passed along and agreed upon more quickly…)

Another suggestion I have is to do it over the Internet – we’ve used PalTalk a couple times, and it worked.

Hmm strange, I did not mean to harsh or anything, in fact I am acknowledging the issue, and was asking questions, and trying to see what best can work to accomplish things. And also I might have raised some questions that people usually oppose it do (I wanted to get good answer so that they can be used every community), and I did not twist any body’s word around.

Praying at home for women is more rewarding, I hope no one can deny this, because its hadith, simple is that. And thats why I encourage my wife to do so, but if she says she wants to go to masjid, I do not object because stopping her would also be against hadith. What was difficult in understanding that.

Hassan: I don’t wish to argue but perhaps it was the way you use language that makes me feel like you’re trying to put me down and that’s what I take offense against. For example, “What was difficult in understanding that” makes me feel like you think I must be really dumb. I didn’t argue that praying at home is more rewarding, I simply said that I prefer to pray at the masjid and that’s what my husband and I like, do not judge me on what I do, I have my own personal reasons – but, that’s not even what this post is about, I was simply replying to your last comment so why keep going off topic?

This is my first time commenting on this website and already I’m regretting speaking my mind, it seems as there’s no place an educated Muslim woman can do this without making to feel horrible about herself.

Asalaamu alaikum.

Asiya, please don’t feel unwelcome! There’s room for vigorous discussion here and we’re not all equally adept at written communication; sometimes things come off as personal that aren’t necessarily. It’s the nature of blogs.

I understand that Br. Hassan’s comment was intended to list a variety of approaches to gender segregation, not necessarily to support one or another, but to raise the issues for discussion. As his and AnonyMouse’s comments point out, there are any number of ways meetings of men and women can be held, and the one that’s most comfortable for a certain community is best. There are plenty of women who prefer to stay behind a partition, and as I noted in the post I respect that. I’m concerned when it’s forced on some women, by the culture of the masjid and/or the physical layout of the space.

I’m also concerned by the assumption some make that men can’t be near women without falling prey to animalistic urges. Many Muslim men (at least in the US) mingle with non-Muslim women dressed in all sorts of ways every day outside the masjid. It’s virtually impossible to avoid it. If they can withstand that temptation, why would they be led astray by Muslim sisters dressed and behaving with much more modesty and in Allah’s house? In that atmosphere, I also question why they would be less inclined to lower their gaze.

As someone who grew up in the US as a non-Muslim, all these assumptions tend to hypersexualize the atmosphere rather than minimize it. That makes me wonder if masajid need to adapt to what makes their community most comfortable even if it means taking away a barrier.

Salaam ‘Alaikum

But this isn’t about praying in the masjid, it is about a community that invited women to be involved in community affairs and then had a set up where it was difficult for those women to get involved: a screechy mic, unable to hear, and a wall and that this all resulted in the input of those sisters being disregarded.

You say, “But those brothers were on the other side of the barrier,” which makes sense on the surface, but is disingenuous if you think about it. The leader of the meeting is on the men’s side; by default, the “life” of the meeting is there. You men have little to no experience being in a setting, either halaqa or meetings (and of course, prayer) where the person leading the setting is not face to face with you. He sees you, you see him, he hears you, you hear him. He interacts with you, and you with him. Meanwhile, the women are in another room or on another floor with the children, with a screechy staticy speaker or television…

Ruth, the answer is no, the men would not tolerate it, but they tolerate it for us on our behalf. They really truly have no idea what it is like and how dispiriting it can be.

Like Ruth, I’m no Asra Nomani. I quite like single gendered space for prayer. But when it comes to meetings and the like, you are getting into the realm of the impractical and the unfair. Meetings can be conducted in a very proper, taqwa-y manner. I’ve attended such meetings for business and community affairs (some with the majority of the women were in niqab) where men and women sat on seperate sides of the room, but everyone’s input was considered and the discussion was lively and productive.

I like the setting of the alkauthar institute sisters at the back, brothers at the front and brothers are not allowed to turn around when sisters are speaking. Its quite balanced. But I know some sisters who do not wear Niqaab do feel awkward in voicing their opinions or asking questions.

AA-

Very nice post Sr. Ruth. In addition to the necessity of addressing the inequal treatment of the sisters at many masajids, the basic role of the masjid must also be clarified.

For example, across the Muslim world, the masjid is solely a place of worship – people pray and leave. Occasionally a talk will take place, but not much else happens there.

In the West, the Masjid functions as so much more and so the dynamics taking place there are going to be so very different.

Thus the role of sisters and how brothers interact with them must reflect this change in the role of the Masjid.

Another point worth discussing – how does living in a society where interaction with the opposite sex is the daily norm affect the gender relations taking place in the Masjid?

I know many sisters who would have no problem dealing with non-Muslim men in their daily activities, but when they came to the masjid, they acted completely different. The same applies for the brothers.

Why the double standard? I think Mujahideen Ryder was referring to the next generation not having this bipolar attitude.

WA-
Naeem

Meetings are not same as prayers. Prayers need khushu’, meetings need raising and addressing issues.

Sometimes, I want to put the brothers behind the barrier and hand them a mic. and then ask them to hold meetings to organize conferences when they can’t see the moderator neither the board nor projector!

Sister Ruth, I am so glad you brought up this issue. I hope more brothers read this and try to learn something from this esp. those involved in community activities.