[quote]Even our beloved Nabi (saw) allowed physical discipline as an ‘option’ if child fails to play[/quote]

it should be PRAY* not play, typo :s

–” I don’t believe in child beating and I honestly suspect sexual abuse.”–

la hawla wala quwatta illa billah…I don’t know if we can just ‘suspect’ someone for this. I mean hitting a child is one thing but this is a serious accusation!

However, I do agree with her about leaving the children unattanded with some male, even if they are family member.

I’ve heard a few horribile stories, actually some of them were my own students (now in their teenage years) but they were sexually abused by their own close relatives. These girls complained that their parents didn’t help them either. They wanted me to talk to their paretns and when I did, lo and behold, the parents were just ‘hush…hush’ about it!

I couldn’t believe this happened among Pakistanis!!

@Nuqtah

It seems that she was quite insistent upon connecting ‘physical’ disciplinary acts with ’sexual abuse’.

I didn’t see that connection, personally. I mean, i don’t see where she was insistent on this. It was a very short entry. She mentioned one example of a sheikh beating children – there is a big difference between light discipline, and beating. She also mentioned right at the beginning that her subject matter was both sexual and physical abuse:

1) Sexual assault of women, children and men.
2) Physical abuse of women, children and men.

Although i am not a parent, i am of the opinion that the only person who should be allowed to physically discipline a child, is the parent. Even close relatives are pushing it. I am happy for teachers to tell them off, take away privileges, make them sit in the corner, etc, but when it comes to laying hands on my child, that is my domain and no-one elses, because i would be the only one who loves them enough not to go too far, inshallah. There are plenty of ways to discipline children without the need for corporal punishment. And yes, let us look to the example of Rasoolallah, sallalahu ‘alayhi wa salam, who never raised a hand to woman nor a child.

I find it barbaric to ‘beat’ the Qur’an into the mind of children, whether it be through actual physical punishment for not learning quickly enough, or through psychological abuse. You are associating a very bad experience, with religious education. I can tell you from personal experience that i absolutely hated the madresa that i attended as a small child cos i was petrified of the apa teaching us. I may have learnt my alif, ba, ta, but i never learnt love for Islam from her, i can tell you. Eventually my mother left me with an old lady. She was so sweet, mashallah, and never shouted at me, or the few other children in her care, may Allah bless her soul, and never threatened us with anything. Yet we all behaved well, and learnt our surahs, and duas, and what-not. Perhaps we were good children, but that was due to good parenting – so once again, discipline should be in place in the home, so other people don’t have to do your dirty work, for you.

My bad memories of madresa are so strong, that i don’t really want to send my children there, as long i can do the job myself, inshallah. There will come a time when they will have to be sent to someone more qualified, but inshallah, i will be in a position to choose someone who has a good reputation for treating children kindly, like the Prophet, ‘alayhis salam, always did.

Even our beloved Nabi (saw) allowed physical discipline as an ‘option’ if child fails to pray. Is she going to accuse him from high horse aswell?

Do you know how bad that sounds? She was not on any kind of horse, Nuqtah. Your points, though valid, have been somewhat undermined in my mind, by that derogatory statement. Please be more careful in future, inshallah.

And i can only think that the beating our beloved Nabi, sallalahu ‘alayhi wa salam, was talking about was the LAST option, of many options, and just think about it… if you have to beat your child in order for him/her to pray the obligatory salat, don’t you think that this is a sign that you have failed in your duty to communicate the beauty of Islam to him/her through your own example? I have seen a one year old try to pray salat, cos he saw his mum/dad do it on a regular basis. Kids copy their elders very naturally when they get the impression that what they are doing is fun/interesting.

So, please concentrate on the basic message of her entry which is: we must be very careful who we leave our children with.

I hate to say it, but i also doubt the trustworthiness of some RE teachers, only cos of my friend’s experience. A man brought by her parents to teach her Qur’an etc, sexually abused her in her own home. There are people who have knowledge of such great things, and yet can go to such low depths of depravity, that i wonder how the blessed knowledge can stand to remain in their hearts. Subhanallah, we are all capable of evils beyond imagination; i seek refuge in Allah from this.

The message is, be careful who you trust – these are your children, your hearts, don’t fail them in a way that will leave them scarred for LIFE, na’authobillah.

May Allah forgive me if i have said anything incorrect.

Amad, i understand where you guys are coming from, and i am sure that sister Organic will accept constructive criticism on her posts, inshallah. The high horse remark just wasn’t worthy of a comment from Nuqtah, that’s all.

Salaams again

Although i don’t want to dwell on this for too long, but i think i know why i may have came across as dissing Islam in my earlier comment:

I find it barbaric to ‘beat’ the Qur’an into the mind of children, whether it be through actual physical punishment for not learning quickly enough, or through psychological abuse.

It is my use of the word “beat”, which is most likely different to what is referred to in the English translation of the hadith about ‘beating’ children if they do no pray.

In my mind, the word “beat” has extreme connotations, where the result is physical harm to the victim, such as bruising, swelling, bleeding, etc. I cannot see this as being Islamic.

However, when used in the context of Islamically permissible means of physical discipline, i believe the word “beat” means something entirely different. I am taking this from the fact that the scholars say that if a man resorts to physically disciplining his wife, he must do it lightly, so as to be more of a symbolic action rather than a means to cause harm or pain. He is not allowed to hit her in a way that would cause marks.

In my comment, i meant the extreme form of beating, where the child would feel a lot of pain, and may be affected psychologically in the long-term. Light hitting on the hands with a miswak doesn’t qualify as beating in my mind (i only had that done to me once in my life, and it stung like crazy). However, i would prefer that other methods were first used, such as separating the child from other children in the class, refusing them a playbreak, lines, detention; tried and tested methods, that don’t involved physical discipline.

I am not against parents smacking bottoms, hands, or backs of legs (not sure what goes these days). But i would feel very uncomfortable with a teacher smacking children. I personally do not feel it is their place. If they have that much trouble with the child, they should consult with the parents, and ask them to discipline the child at home.

So, i hope that clears up any confusion, inshallah.

Apologies for any insult, arrogance, or general annoyance. Inshallah, it won’t happen again. :)

Wa’salam

Salamu alaikum

Nuqtah:

You said:

she was quite insistent upon connecting ‘physical’ disciplinary acts with ‘sexual abuse’.

The only reason I mentioned physical abuse is because that is how the story was told to me. I am recounting a true story, I didn’t feel comfortable cutting off the story for the purposes of my particular post, which was to discuss SEXUAL ABUSE OF MUSLIM CHILDREN IN OUR COMMUNITIES, not disciplinary actions with regards to culture. I merely touched the topic. I guess you are missing the main theme here.

I am not an Anthropology student but it seems that you are. Thank you for enlightening me!

You said:

Even in the very ‘west’ which she tends to glamorize all the time

Well. I don’t know where you pick up that attitude. I am an Egyptian American who has lived both in the West and the East for the majority of my life. My Aqeedah is Islam and my education has been in the Western and Eastern world. I am at the advantage of picking up the best of both worlds, of course as long as this doesn’t contradict with my Aqeedah, which is an Islamic one.

I have discussed many flaws with the Western society. You may want to check out my posts about how Muslim youth find it hard to fight peer pressure of their non-Muslim friends and my “a href=”http://organicmuslimah.blogspot.com/2007/04/going-to-bar.html “>how Muslim youth are asked to go to bars.

I would appreciate it that you don’t make unfair generalization about my blog or attitude.

You said

So, the connection between ‘discipline’ and ‘sexual abuse’ seems very very prepostorous. As there isn’t always a connection. Hence, she has made a gross generalization.

I still don’t understand where is the connection? My entire post speaks about NOT LEAVING ONE’S CHILD ALONE WITH ANYONE, EVEN IF THEY ARE RELIGIOUS. I DON’T GO ON AND ON ABOUT PHYSICAL ABUSE,ETC. I merely touch the subject and express my extreme dislike to using physical force when teaching a beautiful subject as Quran. Growing up in Egypt I was beaten up by teachers when I failed to memorize a surah or understand an Arabic grammar concept. And let me tell you something–it never worked! I was only terrified of my teacher and did everything out of fear. Quran shouldn’t be memorized out of fear, it should be out of love. The Quran are the words of Allah (swt).

Even our beloved Nabi (saw) allowed physical discipline as an ‘option’ if child fails to play. Is she going to accuse him from high horse aswell?

I would like you to bring up an incident where the Prophet (pbuh) has beaten a child or woman. And I would also like you to explain, as you seem vastly knowledgeable in semantics, the difference between “beating” and “hitting.”

I appreciate the criticism. Thank you!

Okay, apologies about the funky formating. IMuslim just taught me how to do the block quoting formating. Sorry about the mess up!

wa alaikumussalaam,

[quote]The only reason I mentioned physical abuse is because that is how the story was told to me. I am recounting a true story, I didn’t feel comfortable cutting off the story for the purposes of my particular post, which was to discuss SEXUAL ABUSE OF MUSLIM CHILDREN IN OUR COMMUNITIES, not disciplinary actions with regards to culture. I merely touched the topic. I guess you are missing the main theme here. [/quote]

I did not miss the main “theme”. I didn’t feel a need to address because I did not have a problem with it. I felt a need to point certain undertones that you were (supposedly) insinuating.

[quote]I am not an Anthropology student but it seems that you are. Thank you for enlightening me! [/quote]

Neither am I a formal student of anthropology. And your words are a bit ambiguous, I don’t know whether sarcasm is intended or not. So, I will hold my judgment.

[quote]Well. I don’t know where you pick up that attitude. I am an Egyptian American who has lived both in the West and the East for the majority of my life. [/quote]

With your vast experience which gives your word legitimacy, I hope I am at the same level of comprehension as you are.

[quote]My Aqeedah is Islam and my education has been in the Western and Eastern world. I am at the advantage of picking up the best of both worlds, of course as long as this doesn’t contradict with my Aqeedah, which is an Islamic one. [/quote]

I never doubted your Islam, why throw in an irrelevant point?

[quote]I have discussed many flaws with the Western society. You may want to check out my posts about how Muslim youth find it hard to fight peer pressure of their non-Muslim friends and my “a href=”http://organicmuslimah.blogspot.com/2007/04/going-to-bar.html “>how Muslim youth are asked to go to bars. [/quote]

I’m not directing this towards you, but criticizing certain aspect of a culture does not discount the fact that the person critiquing it is still not intellectually subservient to its thought.

[quote]I would appreciate it that you don’t make unfair generalization about my blog or attitude. [/quote]

Human beings think in terms of ‘generalizations’. My opinion is not an unfair generalization, but it’s based on what I’ve read and seen on your blog. And I stand by it.

[quote]I still don’t understand where is the connection? My entire post speaks about NOT LEAVING ONE’S CHILD ALONE WITH ANYONE, EVEN IF THEY ARE RELIGIOUS. I DON’T GO ON AND ON ABOUT PHYSICAL ABUSE,ETC. [/quote]

A “connection” does not have to be implicit.

[quote]I merely touch the subject and express my extreme dislike to using physical force when teaching a beautiful subject as Quran. Growing up in Egypt I was beaten up by teachers when I failed to memorize a surah or understand an Arabic grammar concept. And let me tell you something–it never worked! I was only terrified of my teacher and did everything out of fear. Quran shouldn’t be memorized out of fear, it should be out of love. The Quran are the words of Allah (swt). [/quote]

To an unsuspecting reader the way you conveyed it, it seemed like a rabid belittlement of qur’an teachers in their entirety.

[quote]I would like you to bring up an incident where the Prophet (pbuh) has beaten a child or woman. [/quote]

I would like you to disprove the hadith of the Nabi (alayhi salatu wa salam) wherein he allowed ‘physical disciplining’ of a child if he didnt pray, albeit, as scholars opine as a last option.

[quote] And I would also like you to explain, as you seem vastly knowledgeable in semantics, the difference between “beating” and “hitting.” [/quote]

I never claimed to have any knowledge of semantics or linguistics. Please do not attribute something to me that I do not claim.

[quote]I appreciate the criticism. Thank you [/quote]

I don’t. But you are welcome.

I couldn’t believe this happened among Pakistanis!!
Why not? It happens everywhere else in the world.

Because Pakistani put so much emphasis on ‘extended-family’ values and the joint family system.

On hitting a child to discipline, memorize, study, in all honestly, those who are thinking that it can be done without ‘physical discipline’, are not married and don’t have children yet. All I can say, is wait until you have your own.

However, there is a huge difference between ‘disciplined’ hitting and ‘reaction’ hitting.

Prophet, sallallahu alihi wasalam, didn’t hit a child/woman himself, but he didn’t disapprove it either. I haven’t read any student of knowledge/shaikh disapproving hitting as a mean to discipline, however with conditions and last resort.

As for a teacher hitting his/her student, I do believe that teachers have certain rights over their students. If I find a good teacher for my children, someone I trust, I wouldn’t mind that teacher hitting my child. If that teacher invests so much time and effort on my child, I would also like to give him/her authority.

I think one of the reasons why our children/youth do not respect their teachers is because they don’t take the teachers as an ‘authority’. Whenever the poor teacher tries to ‘physically’ discipline the child, parents interfere and the teachers don’t have an option to use any deterrence method on their students anymore.

But I also agree that it cannot be like what happens back in Indo/pak where teachers can do whatever they wish to their students. Once my mother-in-law told me that a Qur’an teacher hit her nephew so hard with a stick that his arm started bleeding!!
Now that is where the parents must ‘keep an eye’.

And Allah knows best.

I can never forget Abdullah ibn AzZubair, radiAllahu anh, when it comes to toughen up through childhood hitting!!

And in reference to Br. Hassan’s story of Imam Malik: The student was Hisham ibn Ammar, one of the teacher of Bukhair and Muslim.

“Plus its thrill (getting beaten, or ways to avoid it, etc)”

I think that’s another reason beating doesn’t work well as a method of discipline: beat a kid enough, and s/he will get so used to it they won’t even care about it much anymore. And isn’t the whole point of discipline to MAKE them care, to make them realize what they’ve done wrong and what they need to fix?

Less is more, as they say, and it’s definitely been true in my experience.

Hassan don’t you know!

Imam Malik’s action do not conform to our enlightened, modern and civil standards! He’s barbaric!

(wal iyadhubillah)

“can you explain Imam Malik’s actions?”

Nope, I don’t think I can. Personally, I don’t get it/ don’t think it’s neccessary; but like I mentioned in the first comment, I guess it’s a societal thing (some cultures consider it normal to discipline a child that way).

“its important to keep men tough and not girly-men.”

Yes, absolutely! But I do think that it can be done without beating the ‘softness’ out of the guys – after all, Uthman ibn Affan (radhiAllahu anhu) was an extremely gentle and soft type of person, but he was also a ferocious warrior.

“So basically it varies from child to child, and also gender to gender, its easy to deal with girls and you would not need beating, while boys can be more problematic.”

Heh, not always. Some girls need a whack upside the head while the guys are the ones who actually need to be sat down and talked to…

“Imam Malik’s action do not conform to our enlightened, modern and civil standards! He’s barbaric!”

Subhan’Allah! I have never called ANY of the Salaf as-Saalih ‘barbaric,’ nor do I consider myself better, ‘enlightened’ or ‘modern’!

What I stated was my personal opinion, and it could very well be wrong – may Allah forgive me and correct me!

[quote]Subhan’Allah! I have never called ANY of the Salaf as-Saalih ‘barbaric,’ nor do I consider myself better, ‘enlightened’ or ‘modern’!

What I stated was my personal opinion, and it could very well be wrong – may Allah forgive me and correct me!

[/quote]

Then stop contradicting yourself (?). Ever thought about doing that?

Btw, there’s great wisdom in the words of beloved nabi sal Allahu alayhi wassalam, when he said “man samatan najja” (whoever remained quiet has saved himself)

@ Hassan:

You GAVE IT…FULL FORCE…FULL ON!

personal*

Sister Anonymouse, since its matter of culture or time, then we have to agree to leave it there at our cultural differences. If in your culture beating/hitting is not practiced, upto your culture, my culture practices it, and has been practiced through centuries and produced numerous scholars, warriors, geniuses. Also I think age matters, meaning I may have some reservations being beaten/hit by my father/teacher 10-15 years ago, but now I thank Allah everyday for having such parents/teachers for keeping me disciplined, and after Allah, credit goes to them for whatever my achievements in life are.

On a slight tangent, FOB vs ABCD, I think it could be a good post for blog by someone like Amad who was FOB, and apparently upgraded(in his view, could be considered downgraded) to American who can discuss the wide bridge between two. I would have much more to comment on that post.

I could remember was the inner pain I felt at being called stupid, idiotic, dumb, etc. and the outer pain as well.

Now, this is what I don’t agree with (YES even me who believes in physical discipline).
I have never called my children ‘stupid or dumb’, walhamudllilah, at the most I have told my children that what they did was silly.
My children immediately tell me, ‘that was not nice what you said.’
And even in my anger I have to emphasize, ‘I am not calling you silly rather your action silly!’
That makes me feel better that walhamdulilah I am not a dictator figure in their minds because they can object, even if I am angry :)

Anonymouse: You can well see the difference between the eastern youth and western youth’s respect level of elders and esp. teachers.

Besides, as i kept saying, a hitting which is merely a reaction of a child’s misbehaving vs. a hitting that is a ‘consequence’ of several warnings has a different effect.

As for hitting while teaching Qur’an, I don’t think anyone would have the heart to hit a child merely because they make a mistake or can’t pronounce something correctly.
It is usually because either they start playing around, or they waste time or they disrespect etc.

And I do believe in the necessity of explaining the child that hitting is not because they made a mistake but because of their playing around, misbehaving etc.

Honestly, hitting doesn’t mean bleeding your child rahter it is merely to embarrass and instill fear in the child, so that he doesn’t repeat his mistake/action to save himself from the embarrassment and/or out of fear.

Umm Layth: (long time no post!) I agree that every child is different and not every child need to be hit.

OH and as for Imam Malik’s story of hitting Hisham ibn Ammar, it is a beautiful story. If I get a chance, inshaAllah, I will post it later.

But just to summarize, when Hisham started crying, Imam Malik immediately stopped and asked him if he had hurt him (because the intent was to discipline and not hurt) and when Hisham said that he had, Imam Malik asked Hisham how he could compensate…I mean this shows that hitting can be done in a way different then ‘abuse’ or ‘humiliation’.

Plus, hitting has to stop after a certain age and can only work during a certain age. What can be used as a deterrence for a child, who does not even perceive ‘long term’ punishments.

[qoute]Umm Layth for the measured response… I do think your comment was the best during this whole discussion!
[/quote]

agreed. She put it quite poignantly.

I got beat up back in school……don’t regret it either……