Anti-Muslim Bigotry
America’s Dumbest Terrorist-Wannabes (1 UPDATE)
Cross-posted at DailyKos.com. Feel free to cross-comment ;)
Update 1: “He railed against the United States, helped scout out military installations for attack, offered to introduce his comrades to an arms dealer, and gave them a list of weapons he could procure, including machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades.” Guess who this person being described is? The ‘terrorists’?… Guess again… Behold, it is the informant himself! Forget about so-called ‘radical preaching’ at the mosque when it is provided to you in the comfort of your home by a personalized FBI informant! Can there be anything more damning than this? Yet, I firmly believe that the jury will ignore all this and pronounce the guilty verdicts. It isn’t easy to be Muslim these days! So, next time, ANYONE, Muslim or otherwise comes to you and wants to talk about “taking care of those ‘kuffaar’ “, turn away and RUN. Or better call the FBI yourself! Read more here on what seems to be the making of a clear case of entrapment, and thankfully it has gone ‘mainstream’ in the media with this AP report: Informants scrutinized in Fort Dix case :
As most of you may have heard, six men were arrested for planning to a plot to attack a military base. Ok, let’s see here: no real ‘terrorist-training’ background, no military training of any sort, no ‘militant’ training, and they wanted to attack what? A military base? And they believed that a military base would be a cake-walk, of course. How STUPID and RECKLESS can people get? Of course, being untrained doesn’t make this less ‘bad’, but that it doesn’t deserve the screaming media treatment it is receiving? So, tomorrow, if a 16 year old kid decides to bomb the Empire State Building with absolutely zilch idea of how explosives work, would that be counted as a serious terrorist threat? Doesn’t this smell like another attempt to ward off attention by a beleaguered Bush administration (esp. from its Attorney General)?
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Also, let’s set one thing straight, this wasn’t a “jihad” just because they were Muslims and screamed “jihad”… this was a chapter from America’s Dumbest Criminals (replace criminals with terrorist-wannabes). As members of the vast majority of peaceful Muslims, we need to retrieve the word jihad back from the deranged militants. To this.
If we are talking about a REAL terrorist threat, then let’s turn our attention to “Alabama Free Militia”, whose six members were arrested only about 2 weeks ago (SOURCE). And the difference is? While these six ‘terrorist-wannabes’ had a few weapons and no real training, Free Militia possessed truckloads of explosives and weapons, including 130 grenades, an improvised rocket launcher and 2,500 rounds of ammunition. Of course, many of you did not hear about this Free Militia until now. Why? Because they weren’t named Muhammad, Ali and Yousuf. They were simply Tom, Dick and Harry. It wasn’t going to be a jihad, just another militia-motivated bloodbath (like their brother from the past, McVeigh), and THAT just doesn’t cut it. As this blog rightly points out, “It’s Only Terrorism When They Are Muslim, Right?”
Back to the six in question, these men probably watched too much of Rambo, may have been fed a little “we HAVE to hate America” mantra, probably were isolated from the Muslim community at large, and off they went… to the “wild” of Poconos Mountains to conduct training! And after that, just to be sure that they get caught, they give their training video, replete with “Allahu Akbar” as if someone wouldn’t notice that from the tons of Islamophobia out there, to be converted to DVD. Why? So that they can widely distribute it and recruit more folks! Are you kidding me? Any rational Muslim would have turned them in, in a jiffy if they were ‘recruited’. I have been in the Muslim community for over 15 years in America, and I have NEVER been approached by a ‘recruiter’. And I don’t know ANYONE else either (and I know a LOT of Muslims) who has been ‘recruited’. It is almost as if these six men WANTED to get caught, perhaps get some free publicity? Or were they just plain old Dumb Terrorist-Wannabes!
OF COURSE, I say all this assuming the FBI’s story and the consequent media coverage is at least half true (that would be enough to make these assertions). As we know, based on the paint-ball McCarthyism with Ali Timimi and others (as Umar points out), there is almost always more to the story than we are told. So, if that is the case, and if indeed they were ‘framed’, then I wish the best for them. Unfortunately, even if these folks do get cleared, that news will not find any of front-page coverage, and the image of Muslims will continue to suffer. In this time and age, we don’t have any room to make stupid mistakes (talking, writing or insinuating any sort of militancy even if in jest or half-seriousness), and especially to pretend to be more than what we really are. The government doesn’t have to prove that you are ‘capable’ of doing an action, rather their only task is to prove that you actually just thought about it! It is as if the Muslims are always sitting at the airport, surrounded by thought-police. Even if you think or joke about the gun in your back-pack, and even if you say this is in the park with your buddies, you may be a target for a SWAT team. That is just plain reality, so we all need to WISEN up to it.
Sources:
Washington Post
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Hassan
May 10, 2007 at 4:16 PM
These are cheap shots from administration to get the attention of people diverted from the problems they are facing, and also to justify patriot act, which was in jeopardy.
When Patriot act came to effect, many ordinary americans thought it would be focusing on terrorist, I like many other muslims just felt it would be witch hunt against muslims and is racial profiling. Very few people, (among them Ron Paul, and Russ Feingold) objected to it. And it turned out patriot act was used for political agenda of Bush as well as faking progress against war on terrorism.
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Sequoia
May 10, 2007 at 8:07 PM
It is also interesting that the main instiagator for “jihad” was the informant. AlQuada this was not. The Bush administration is reaching for anything to distact from its incompetence.
Amad
May 10, 2007 at 10:58 PM
Think “I am Gonzales, please save me”…
If you read the new update, it is extraordinary how these new ‘terrorism’ cases are so similar in their techniques and their approach. I am surprised that no mainstream media outlet has done a comparative study between all these cases of ‘homegrown’ militancy.
My hunch is, based on the knowledge of 2 of these cases from media sources, that there is a very strong motivational informant element in these cases. If you can imagine having your own personal ‘violent jihad instigator’, who seems to have all the ‘right hookups’ and then mix him up with a bunch of relatively uneducated, possibly ‘unhappy’ individuals… OR in some cases simply get them together to have a ‘fun gun-training camp’; it isn’t difficult to imagine that a few young people may take the bait.
I bet one could do the same with any community; let’s say you send a few informants in a southern white farm community and convince a few of the disillusioned youth how bad the government was with all the taxes and that ‘we had take our homeland back’… you could probably easily convince a few of them to join the ‘crusade’. The Alabama militant group didn’t seem to have any informants (making that an even more dangerous case), but you could probably create a ton of these militants if you really wanted to.
Let’s remember the situation that the Feds are in. A bulk of their resources has been put into ‘terrorism’ related work. Much of the drug enforcement agents were also moved to this arena. So, what do you do, when its your job to find some militant Muslims, and a few big catches would be helpful to your career? Well, you may be tempted to in doing this: If you can’t find ’em, CREATE ’em! I am sure a large majority of them are decent, hardworking folks, but it takes only a few ambitious nuts to create havoc.
AnonyMouse
May 10, 2007 at 11:23 PM
Subhan’Allah… with the informant having come to light, this sounds eerily like the case we had over here, with the 17 youth arrested for plotting to blow up Parliament and behead the Prime Minister… apparently the two informants were the ones who’d gotten the guys riled up in the first place…
Allah a’lam…
Hassan
May 10, 2007 at 11:38 PM
This is strange way to win the war on terror. I mean do people in government really think this would make America safer? Should not they be spending time to stop actual terror plot rather than instigate people to create plot then foil it? Instead of instigating non-violent people to become violent, should not they be spending time to pacify violent people to become non-violent? The day is night and the night is day.
Anon.
May 11, 2007 at 5:49 AM
This is actually a very old technique governments use to guarantee prosecution…agent(s) provocateur, anyone?
Judge Dredd
May 11, 2007 at 6:38 AM
Good posting Amad.
Any case of an easily misled Muslim who does something illegal becomes a generic “Muslim” problem.
And if someone is hell-bent on showing a generic “Muslim” problem all they would need to do would be to find Muslims who can be easily misled.
This is becoming an impossible problem to resolve for Muslims though.
If were able to educate our all our dispersed Ummah in the west not to react to anything, then we would make them eunuchs and slaves to the murderous foreign policies of the west. And if we don’t do anything then those who want to find the Muslims that can be easily misled will have an easy job.
It’s getting out of this catch 22 situation that is the conundrum for the Ummah.
I am sure everyone will have noticed the blatant Islamophobes who have woken up globally to live their fantasy dream of a new kind of a crusade. They are being given prominence by the media. Infact certain media outlets have become the vanguards of Islamophobia.
The attacks on Muslims by the media are a constant trickle of filth. These attacks are tools that are used by the cabalists to perform their false flag attacks. But in order to perform the attacks they need some vulnerable Muslims.
Ok, so we need to find a way to pinpoint and educate the vulnerable Muslims, but we need to bring the media to accountability too. After all the mainstream media is pouring their messages of hate into everyone’s brains day in day out.
Amad
May 11, 2007 at 9:38 AM
Hassan, it’s called desperation…
Think about it… how many major terrorist actions have taken place in America over the last quarter century? Three is it? Trade Center x 2 and Oklahoma? So, obviously there aren’t a lot of terrorists running around. And the two here committed by ‘Muslims’ were by Muslims who weren’t “home-grown”. So, when you have more than half your security budget targeted at ‘terrorist-prevention’, and hardly anyone involved in this (based on historical data)… you can get desperate, as we have seen in this Jersey sting as well as the previous operations in Houston and Virginia.
jamal
May 11, 2007 at 9:42 PM
Asalaamu alaikum, there are so many truths in this article.
Ahmad AlFarsi
May 12, 2007 at 3:18 AM
Assalaamu alaykum Br. Amad,
I have serious problems digesting the following:
“Any rational Muslim would have turned them in, in a jiffy if they were ‘recruited’.”
I strongly feel that any rational Muslim would not turn their brothers (or sisters) in to the FBI. Let me make it clear that I am not condoning terrorism in any form or fashion, but I don’t think a rational Muslim would ‘turn in’ his brother. If one really felt there was a problem, it should be handled WITHIN the Muslim community… (e.g. maybe get some brothers to lock him in his house or something till he wisens up and is no longer a threat to public safety).
Amad
May 12, 2007 at 10:02 AM
salam.. Br. Ahmad, I have personally witnessed the destruction that these informants have inflicted on families. IF it is obvious that there is some hanky-panky and clear case of ‘recruitment’… and there are clear tell-tale signs usually, then I personally will not mess around too much.
Because I truly believe that there are no “REAL” recruiters around, so if they are simply informants, then they’ll get the message that their shtick is up. I have to agree with you though and I don’t problem with talking to the Imam/etc. first to confirm suspicions, and that is probably a good idea. But we need to talk to SOMEONE before we are the next ones to face entrapment. Finally, these actions usually occur with relatively mosque-isolated people, who may not have contacts in the community. Which is why people need to stay close to the community and avoid special ‘camping trips’ or ‘special missions’ arranged by ‘new’ community members or by ‘desperate’ people (financially, personally, whatever).
DrM
May 14, 2007 at 5:35 PM
Wasn’t one of these guys supposed to be a pizza delivery guy? I didn’t know it was THAT easy to scope out a military base. Either that, or the FBI has ordered a few too many toppings of bacon bits…..
Solomon2
May 15, 2007 at 1:45 PM
Keeping an eye on white racists is something ADL does pretty well. And they take donations from everybody!
DrM
May 15, 2007 at 4:11 PM
Well, well, well, if it isn’t my old muslim hating jewish extremist buddy from altmuslim, solomania!
THe ADL is another zionist pressure group which openly supports jewish terror. No donations for those degenerates.
Solomon2
May 15, 2007 at 5:51 PM
DrM! I wondered where you had gone to. I admit to missing you terribly over at altmuslim.com. No one had more creative and enjoyable invective than you did! (But where did “muslim hating” come from?)
(Small correction: I’m not solomonia)
“Jewish terror”? Definitions and examples, please, along with explanations of why such activities are morally wrong. Or is this the wrong venue for such a discussion? I’ve already been accused of being a troll here once, and I don’t want to be thought of that way.
Amad
May 15, 2007 at 6:49 PM
I would also like to learn some objective info. regarding ADL… I have heard some good things when I was back in Houston… I think the Houston chapter was pretty good and worked with CAIR in civil-rights work. Of course, AIPAC is the terror-supporting lobby that should not be mixed up with ADL.
I am aware that ADL supported some Islamophobic agenda, but I can’t seem to remember what that was. Regardless, I hope that it has more good than evil, so that there are areas of mutual interest that we can build bridges on?
Solomon2
May 15, 2007 at 8:17 PM
The folks at CAIR may have had in mind ADL’s filings of amicus briefs like this one on behalf of detained Muslims.
DrM
May 16, 2007 at 2:11 AM
Amad, the ADL is a jewish extremist pressure group which masquerades as a civil rights outfit. They are no different from AIPAC in their mission to promote zionist terrorism and silence criticism of Israel at all costs.
Heck, they even tried to extort money from Nintendo back in the late 1990s for a swastika (gamata buddhist symbol of luck, not the nazi perversion of it) on a Japanese version of a Pokemon trading card.
Solomon2
May 16, 2007 at 8:48 AM
I think the Houston chapter was pretty good and worked with CAIR in civil-rights work.
The folks at CAIR may have had ADL’s filings of amicus briefs on behalf of Muslim detainees in mind.
DrM: mixing up ADL and AIPAC is almost like mixing oil and water. ADL concentrates on domestic U.S. stuff, expecially the white supremacists which prompted their founding; AIPAC is concerned about Israel.
Amad
May 16, 2007 at 9:21 AM
Solomon, I have to say that I was starting to respect you for your politeness here. But your ‘investigation’ into Br. Waleed Shaalan’s death and trying to ‘prove’ that he did not save anyone’s life is purely despicable and below the belt. That is why people may despise your type (pure zionism support while everything about muslims is bad, etc.) not for the causes you support, but for the causes that you engage in tabloid-journalism about.
Did you know our friend Ahmed Sidky spoke directly to the person whose life Waleed saved? Did you know that this person chose to remain anonymous because he was so upset that he couldn’t do anything about it and someone else lost his life for his sake? Though if any of us was in his position, we may have done nothing different.
On the other hand, did you see any Muslim investigate the autopsy report of the holocaust-surviving professor who was also a hero that day? No, we did not. How does that reflect on folks like you?
My suggestion to you is to consider cutting your image losses and removing the pathetic attempt to disparage a dead hero on your blog.
Solomon2
May 16, 2007 at 10:03 AM
Amad, it’s simply that there isn’t any evidence there for us ordinary folk to examine to support the tale of an anonymous eyewitness. Many journalists would not have propagated it unless they could have found a minimum of two eyewitnesses, even anonymous ones. Most would not have published a second-hand account attributed to an anonymous eyewitness at all. Librescu’s deeds were witnessed by several of his students, some of whom have chosen not to remain anonymous, so I never considered investigating further.
(Why did I post it at altmuslim.com? Consider what the author of the altmuslim.com article does for a living.)
No, I didn’t know Sidkey spoke to the eyewitness. Can you direct me further, please? Nothing pops up on Google. I may modify my blog post and altmuslim.com comments based on new information.
On the larger issue, do you agree that a story falsely making someone out as a hero and attributing his fictional deeds to his religion is a form of blasphemy?
(Why tar me with the zionist-believes-everything-about-muslims-is-bad brush? How can you make such sweeping judgments about me? In childhood, it was my Muslim next-door neighbors who taught me, by example, how to carry myself like a gentleman.)
Amad
May 16, 2007 at 10:57 AM
Solomon, MM spoke to Sidky.
I don’t understand what you are trying to get at with attributing deeds to his religion? We didn’t attribute anything to anyone’s religion. We, NY Times, and others simply stated that he was a courageous man who saved another person’s life at the expense of his own. Did we say that it is BECAUSE he was a Muslim? No we did not. There are heroes from all religions and backgrounds, who act out of their convictions.
Because Waleed was as good Muslim, known as such in the community, we can speculate that his convictions came from his religion, just like someone may speculate that the Jewish professor may be acting out of some inspiration or conviction from his religion. What is wrong with that?
Also, what do YOU or anyone else gain by trying to debunk the heroism thing? How does it hurt you if indeed he is a hero? Don’t you see why we could question your motive for doing so, because were Waleed someone named Benyamin or someone named Christopher, would you still be doing the same sort of investigation? I reckon not. During tragedies, we seek comfort in knowing that there are people out there like Waleed and the Professor, who are concerned about human life in complete contrast to the murderer. It is okay not to have 1000% proof on this, because when most people are dead or watching their own back, it is difficult to find eye-witness reports, except for the person who was ACTUALLY saved.
And your blog has enough reasons for me to question your motives. Just like if we started investigating the heroism of an atheist, based on our general dislike for them here, you would be entitled to question our motives as well.
Finally, you may not hate all Muslims, but you certainly are bent on ensuring that no good publicity comes out for them. I am glad that you had good Muslim neighbors. I hope you will reciprocate that goodness to other Muslims as well.
a brother
May 17, 2007 at 1:05 PM
As-salaamu ‘alaikum Amad:
I wanted to bring up a couple of points. And please let me know what you think.
First of all the six brothers who were “allegedly” trying to do an operation against armed combatants on a military base is A LOT better then what MANY, MANY Muslims, although a small, insha’Allah, but very vocal minority, say, preach, and believe wholeheartedly should be done as far as noncombatant (civilian) kuffar are concerned. While I agree that the US authorities likely have used this incident to further their own interests and propaganda about the so-called “war on terror,” it seems that many of the posters here are insinuating that the US authorities were in essence “lying” about the alleged plans, and that no Muslim in the US would not want to do an operation like this, or one MUCH worse Islamically, and considered haraam, for example, a Madrid bombings type of operation slaughtering scores of noncombatant kuffar.
IMHO, many of us seem to not be objectively looking into our situation whether in Western countries or Muslim countries, and seem to show a lot of BLIND denial and extreme indifference about what many of our brothers/sisters truly believe in.
Who is the most popular Muslim in the world today, and even America? Allahu alam, but IMHO of course it is “Shaykh” Osama. Go to any masjid in North America, and Allahu alam, and hopefully I’m wrong, but I believe that if we could honestly ask the brothers and sisters if they “love” Osama without worrying that our questions would be recorded by the undercover wire taps already in “many” of our masajid, or the fact that the shuyukh as well as the brothers/sisters there would think that you were a spy for asking this (and rightly so in today’s climate), I believe that most of the brothers and sisters would say that they truly love Osama. (Now, whether they believe that he or al-Qaeda was responsible for the 911 attacks is another story, as it seems that that this is another topic for another time, but obviously many of our brothers and sisters believe that the “zionists” or the Mossad carried out the attacks)
I don’t know about other Muslims, but I personally find it extremely sad and depressing that so many of us here (and not just oversees) seem to blindly love and support “Shaykh” Osama and at least to a lesser extent al-Qaeda’s type of “ideology” — saying it is permissible, heck it is REALLY great, and REALLY excellent Islamically, to slaughter and kill as many noncombatant (civilian) kuffar as possible.
wa salaam
Amad
May 17, 2007 at 1:24 PM
Wow, are you REAL, “a brother”?? Where did you get your talking points from? Jihadwatch or LGF?
First of all, you make wild speculations and judgements about our ‘love’ for Osama… and then based on this false premise, you go on and make a conclusion that it is sad to see that so many of us love him?? Do you even know how to make an effective argument?
Which Masjid or people do you hang out with? IF indeed you do hang out with Muslims. I mean, I have rarely, if ever, heard of anyone supporting, let alone loving Osama. What you have said is completely incredulous, including being completely speculative in nature. Do you have ANY evidence for what you stated? I bet not, and when you get some, then please do share it.
What you are saying is no different from the Islamophobic enemies of Muslims who insist that there are no ‘moderate’ Muslims. If you really feel that way, then you should get a ticket on Spencer’s bus. But next time you wish to comment on MM, you better be prepared to back your statements with evidence, not hearsay. Otherwise, your comments will go where they deserve, the TRASH bin.
a brother
May 17, 2007 at 11:57 PM
As salaamu ‘alaikum Amad:
“Wow, are you REAL, “a brother”?? Where did you get your talking points from? Jihadwatch or LGF?”
First of all brother, let me say that I’m sorry to have offended you or anyone else reading what I posted, and more importantly I ask Allah ‘azza wa jall for forgiveness if I said anything hurtful or upsetting.
Yes, brother, I’m tying to at least “keep it real” as a brother, insha’Allah. I do try to stay away from these hate-mongering, bigoted, Islamiphobic websites as much as I can, but I think that they basically say that MOST, if not all Muslims are evil, sadistic, subhuman, devious “terrorists,” that support any, and all terror acts, ostensibly done “in the name” of Islam. (i.e., the killing of non-Muslim noncombatants) Of course, I NEVER said this brother. I said that a small, but vocal minority of Muslims seem to support these very unIslamic types of acts. This was only my opinion, nothing more and nothing less, and I definitely should have said that of course Allah (swt) knows best. What is your opinion brother? Regardless of how you feel, I will see that as your opinion, and respect it, insha’Allah.
“First of all, you make wild speculations and judgements about our ‘love’ for Osama… and then based on this false premise, you go on and make a conclusion that it is sad to see that so many of us love him?? Do you even know how to make an effective argument?”
In retrospect, I probably should have said that “some” or “many” Muslims (at least in America) love Osama, as opposed to most (as this would mean at least 51%), and this would IMHO, probably be more accurate, but Allahu alam, although I did say that I hoped that I was wrong about my opinion/conclusion. And of course I NEVER said that I based my opinions on “scientific research.” In fact this is why I wanted to get your feedback and perspective from you and other posters.
“Which Masjid or people do you hang out with? IF indeed you do hang out with Muslims. I mean, I have rarely, if ever, heard of anyone supporting, let alone loving Osama. What you have said is completely incredulous, including being completely speculative in nature. Do you have ANY evidence for what you stated? I bet not, and when you get some, then please do share it.”
Yes, I do hang out, and associate with Muslims. The masajid that I go to, or the places I hangout at are just that — places that “I” go to and hangout, and hence, these are only of course my experiences. And again brother, I never said that I conducted scientific research, nor did I say that I had the total, 100% “absolute,” etched in stone, “truth.” And yes, I have talked to brothers, whether in the masjid setting, or outside of this environment, that say that yes, they do “love” Osama. However, they didn’t necessarily believe that he or al-Qaeda, was responsible for the 911 attack (and Allahu alam), but pretty much seemed to believe that either the US govt., the zionists/Israelis, or a combination of them were the ones responsible. Again, I don’t have scientific evidence, or “proof” and this was only my personal experience, nothing more and nothing less.
There is another dynamic into how I have formulated my opinions, aside from face to face talks with various brothers. I have visited many, many Islamic blogs, and forums, and sites, and have debated from time to time with some of the brothers (and sisters) on these blogs about their “extremist” opinions and why they feel this way (condoning, defending, and promoting this “extremist” ideology of the killing of non-Muslim noncombatants, and calling this “halaal,” good for Muslims, etc.) If you and the administrators of this site want me to, I can make another post with links to, or addresses of their blogs. I wouldn’t want to give these brothers and sisters the publicity, as I and the vast majority of Muslims, except for a very vocal minority (as I articulated in my first post) do not at all agree with this kind of extremist “ideology.” Again, this was one of the main reasons that I posted what I posted, because YES, wallahi, this kind of thinking amongst a minority of Muslims is indeed VERY depressing, and sad to me. How do you feel akhee? Do you get upset, or angry, or frustrated, or depressed at times that there are these knuckle-heads out there that feel this way?
“What you are saying is no different from the Islamaphobic enemies of Muslims who insist that there are no ‘moderate’ Muslims. If you really feel that way, then you should get a ticket on Spencer’s bus. But next time you wish to comment on MM, you better be prepared to back your statements with evidence, not hearsay. Otherwise, your comments will go where they deserve, the TRASH bin.”
I again apologize to you and anyone that was offended by my post, and of course ask Allah (swt) for His forgiveness. I only made my post for the sake of Allah (swt), period. And wallahi, I truly believe that various Muslims who have these extremist, misguided ideologies, are doing more harm than anything I could ever post. I believe that you were being unfair to me as a Muslim brother, calling me the same, or lumping me in with these hateful, bigoted, hate-mongering Islamiphobes, telling me to “get a ticket on the bus” with a very known Islam hating, bigoted, pro-genocical kaafir. SubhanAllah.
You are entitled to your opinion though, and I respect it, and again, please accept my apologies.
Peace brother
Amad
May 18, 2007 at 8:53 AM
ASA, “a brother”, first of all, sorry to get off on you like that. But seriously, I will not be surprised that what you wrote could in fact become fodder for the Islamophobic sites. You could probably reasonably assume that one of our apostate friends may take a liking to it and link to it.
We should be careful of what we say. There are enough haters out there that we don’t need to add to the rhetoric.
I still disagree that there is a ‘bare minority’ like 49% who love or respect Osama. I would say the number may be closer to 1%, at least in America. Again, I haven’t met any (that I can recall) who does, and I have been involved with community activism for years and years, and met a ton of Muslims. So, I still say that if you are meeting a lot of these ‘types’, you are probably in an abnormal (in this regard) community. Also, I would suggest that if their ‘talk’ extends to ‘action’ in support of Osama, it would be in the Muslim interest to take it up with your Masjid authorities, and if they do not take action or don’t care, then you should take it to the next step. Let me emphasize that: It is in OUR (Muslim) interest that we protect the communities where we reside in, socialize in and depend on for our livelihood, from being attacked / terrorized, etc. by ANY elements, let alone elements in the name of our religion.
You also said:
Again, if they are so vocal, how come we haven’t heard of them that much? Especially in this country, people have received life sentences for saying much less than ‘we support Osama’. As far as blogs, etc., well blogs could be in any part of the world. And my points are limited to the West, and more specifically to the States.
I agree akhi that those people who support this violence unabatedly are doing more harm than the Islamophobic elements themselves. The ‘jihadi’ crew (those who have twisted/hijacked our deen) have harmed Muslims more than most enemies of Islam could have ever achieved.
I do want to restate to you and others to please understand that everything we say or write has a consequence, so let’s think two steps ahead before we say it or write it. Let’s also be very careful about generalizations and stereotyping.
In conclusion, I am sorry if I misunderstood you or hurt your feelings and I mean it.
wasaalam.
Solomon2
May 18, 2007 at 5:04 PM
Amad:
I don’t understand what you are trying to get at with attributing deeds to his religion? We didn’t attribute anything to anyone’s religion.
No one at MM, but Dr. H.H. over at altmuslim.com did. I think a number of Arab newspapers and bloggers did, too. I am not tarring you or anyone else here with the same brush, am I?
Also, I didn’t find the interview you quoted here at MM. Can you give me the link?
what do YOU or anyone else gain by trying to debunk the heroism thing?
If I was just trying to “debunk the heroism thing” I wouldn’t have waited weeks to post about it, would I? You don’t think my perceived empathy with Waleed – that he would prefer what truth exists be confirmed and told – sufficient motivation?
The actions of the Jewish professor were clearly deliberate and witnessed by many. What Waleed did, at most, was a twitch, and there is no evidence available to support even that. The angst of Holocaust survivorship as motivation for great deeds is well known, as Israel’s establishment by many deeds of courage and self-sacrifice in the face of superior Arab armies demonstrated. As a non-Muslim engineering student who partnered with a Muslim graduate student, I am not at all convinced that Islam shaped Waleed’s character enough for me to be so certain as of his motivations.
The story of Waleed’s heroism may be entirely false, from beginning to end, and may exist only to promote Islam. Isn’t that blasphemy? That’s the key difference in the two stories.
Not even the anonymous witness can be absolutely certain that it was deliberate. Yet I am prepared to accept the story of Waleed’s heroism – and even spread it further – if (1) the anonymous witness steps forward, and (2) the autopsy report supports the story, or at least doesn’t definitively dispute it (presumably the family can sign a waiver for its release). Don’t you think Waleed’s stature – and that of Arabs and Muslims too, perhaps – would only be enhanced if these things happened?
your blog has enough reasons for me to question your motives. Just like if we started investigating the heroism of an atheist
Ah, yes, the conviction that truth is established by motives and character of the bearer. Facts are secondary, because their verity can’t always be ascertained. I understand that hadiths are evaluated the same way, is that correct?
Judge Dredd
May 19, 2007 at 4:51 AM
Solomon: “Jewish terror”?
I would actually correct this and say that only Zionists are capable of terror for a true Jew believes in God and is God-fearing.
So, Zionist Terror:
Ariel Sharon the butcher.
Olmert the bomber of children and women in Lebanon.
The blatant Islamophobia by the likes of semi intellectual Bernard Lewis – for hear Bernard Lewis is guilty of behaving as a Nazi spreading anti-semitism.
59 years of Israeli Zionist terror on the Palestinians after having kicked them off their own land.
Zionist instigated Iraqi War
These are some examples Solomon. Perhaps you should look deep inside yourself and tear away those Zionist demons to find the real crimes and terrors perpetrated by Zionists.
Good Luck.
A brother: What do you think of the “Islamist” Ed Said?
Judge Dredd
May 19, 2007 at 6:07 PM
A Brother, I meant Ed Hussain or what ever that joker calls himself. You know the one I mean – the facist thug who is now wooing the orientalists with his new book, “the islamist”.
Solomon2
May 19, 2007 at 10:40 PM
JD: Insufficient. Labels are not details, and you haven’t specified why actions listed are crimes.
a brother
May 20, 2007 at 11:48 PM
Judge Dredd:
You seem to be insinuating that because as a Muslim I have spoken out, criticized, pointed out munkar, etc., for the sake of Allah (swt) against, IMHO, what I feel are severely misguided, extremists who distort, twist, and pervert the beautiful Deen of Allah (swt) — that it is very wrong, unIslamic, traitorous, and tantamount of being equal to that of an apparent munafiq (the “Ed” Hussein character) — a so-called Muslim who has apparently taken tawagheet kuffar, and/or the enemies of Allah (swt) as auliya (protectors), who Allahu ‘alam, is at best a “fasiq,” and at worse a “murtad.” (and if true, Allah’s (swt) punishment of death would be incumbent on) SubhanAllah. Please learn some Islamic adab, insha’Allah.
Allah (swt) says in the Qur’an (interpretation of the meaning):
[4:135] O you who believe! be maintainers of justice, bearers of witness of Allah’s sake, though it may be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives; if he be rich or poor, Allah is nearer to them both in compassion; therefore do not follow (your) low desires, lest you deviate; and if you swerve or turn aside, then surely Allah is aware of what you do.
[3:104] And there may spring from you a nation who invite to goodness, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency. Such are they who are successful.
[3:110] Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in God. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.
[5:008] O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Well Acquainted with what you do.
Also, here are some ahadith of the Rasool (saw) on some of the principles of enjoining good and forbidding evil, and speaking the truth:
On the authority of Abu Sa`id (radhiallahu `anhu) that the Prophet sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam said, “Whoever sees something evil should change it with his hand. If he cannot, then with his tongue; and if he cannot do even that, then in his heart. That is the weakest degree of faith.” (Muslim)
He also relates on the authority of Ibn Mas`ud that the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, “There was not a single Prophet among those who were sent before me who did not have apostles and companions and followed his Sunna and obeyed his commands. But afterwards other generations came whose words belied their deeds, and whose deeds were not in accordance with what they commanded others to do. Whoever struggles against the with his hand is a believer. Whoever struggles against them with his tongue is a believer. And whoever struggles against them with his heart is a believer. But when none of these things are done, then not a single mustard’s seed weight of faith is present.” (Muslim)
Zaynab (radhiallahu `anha), the wife of the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, “The Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) once awoke, and his face was dark, as he said three times, ‘There is no deity worthy of worship but Allah! Woe betide the Arabs, because of an evil which will soon come! Today, the barrier of Juj and Ma`juj has been breached by so much,’ and he made a circle with his thumb and forefinger.” And Zaynab remarked, “I said, ‘O Messenger of Allah! Even when the righteous still dwell amongst us?’ and he said, ‘Yes, when khubth (moral degradation) becomes widespread.'”
Malik Ibn Dinar once recited the verse, There were in the city nine men who caused corruption in the earth, and would not cause reform, [27:48] and said, “Nowadays, there are people in every clan and district who cause corruption in the earth, and do not cause reform.”
He also said, “We have become accustomed to loving the world, so that we do not enjoin good or forbid evil to one another. Allah the Most High will certainly not permit us to continue doing this, but would that I knew what kind of punishment shall befall us!”
`Umar ibn `Abdul `Aziz said, “It used to be that Allah the Most High does not punish the common people for the sins of the elite; but when the evil is done openly, and they do not repudiate it, they all become deserving of His punishment.” (Bukhari and Muslim)
The Prophet said, “Enjoining all that is good is a Sadaqa.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari 8.50, Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah)
The Prophet (saw) said: If the people see an evil and they do not change it, soon Allah will inflict them all with His Punishment. (Ahmed, graded authentic by Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ (1/398))
Judge Dredd
May 21, 2007 at 3:45 PM
“The Prophet (saw) said: If the people see an evil and they do not change it, soon Allah will inflict them all with His Punishment. (Ahmed, graded authentic by Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ (1/398))”
So do you think this applies to the murder of innocent Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli Zionists?
OR the war in Iraq?
Or the demonic Israeli Zionist Foreign policy dictated by AIPAC on the free and democratic United States of America?
Judge Dredd
May 21, 2007 at 3:46 PM
solomon2, vice versa….
….no seriously, yawn.
a brother
May 21, 2007 at 8:08 PM
Yes, of course, what the zionists are doing and have done against the Palestinians for 50 plus years is obviously an extreme evil. No offense, but this is really dumb question. Is water “wet?” lol
The same with the zionists, pro-zionist lobbies of America. The fact that APAIC and other pro-zionist lobbies, so-called “think-tanks,” and fanatically pro-zionist, Israeli-first neo-conservatives in very top positions in the Pentagon, and in the Bush administration, who essence incited and helped the US govt. to go to war against Iraq (and have of course have been trying to get the US to attack Syria and Iran for many years since) is also a horrendous crime that they will have to answer to the Creator for. Also the zionist Christians (also known as “dispensationalists” BTW), who do everything for the sake of the zionist entity, including fighting, supporting wars “allegedly” to help them, to make them “safer,” etc., are also in my opinion, extremely heartless, bad, and very much so also deserve much criticism from Muslims and other justice, peace seeking people of America.
What the Palestinians are doing to each other is also very sad, wicked and deplorable. And what Muslims are doing to each other in many other parts of the Ummah is also very evil, including what is happening in Sudan. And lastly, our Muslim leaders (not necessarily the ones in various non-Muslim countries, such as the US, the UK, etc.) also deserve much, much condemnation, criticism, and wrath. Many Muslims would describe them as “tawgoot;” they are puppets of the non-Muslims; they take them as auliya (protectors) over the believers of Tawheed; they do everything to please their non-Muslim “masters.” These Muslim puppets also very much so have to be brought into the equation if we are going to talk about Iraq. The zionist-crusader coalition would not have attacked them, nor would they have been able to attack them, if not from the help of their various spineless, cowardly “agents” in the various Muslim countries.
and Allah knows best
Solomon2
May 22, 2007 at 2:18 AM
JD: First, I’d like to thank you for providing the reference for the hadith you quoted. No one has ever done that for me before. I appreciate the courtesy. Do you understand now why so many non-Muslims think Islam consists of things pulled out of the air for the convenience of whoever is quoting it?
Second, a question: How do you recognize evil? That question must be dealt with before one can formulate the questions you just posed to me.
Judge Dredd
May 22, 2007 at 9:19 AM
Dear Borthers and Sisters, I would ask you not to click on the link if you are easily shocked by profanities and evil behaviour. This link shows the ilk of Solomon2 who the evil demonic terrorists are.
Dear Solomon2
See Evil, Hear Evil, and if you are Israeli and Zionist well………..kinda makes you evil personified.
Lets just say, watch…….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSKQsZdpzME
Here is one without the evil ones shouting profanities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFreBC5KkSA&mode=related&search=
If you are still having problems recognizing evil then please see a specialist.
(PS: “A brother” who is most likely your brother Solomon2 has indeed quoted out of the air. I do agree with you on that one.)
Judge Dredd
May 22, 2007 at 9:26 AM
Education for Solomon2
See the PURE EVIL:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPdj9LAB0as&mode=related&search=
for all to see.
Solomon2
May 22, 2007 at 12:29 PM
Vid #1: Filmed the guys drinking whiskey, did they? They look pretty young for that, probably didn’t want their parents finding out, no wonder they were annoyed.
Vid #2:
1) Kahanists remain a fringe group; those who act out their violent fantasies are essentially excommunicated, like that crazed shooter a couple of years back. What strength they have is a function of people’s worry about the threat of Arab violence against Jews. Free societies contain a diversity of opinion; that doesn’t mean groups have political power or the means to act out their agendas. If Islamist and Arab nationalists were reduced to like straits, who would worry?
2) I think people should be less concerned with what the Koran or Talmud say and more concerned with what people actually do and why. Arabs are also people.
Or think of it this way: as non-Jewish Arabs in Israel have more civil rights than any other state in the middle east, if Israel’s non-Jews “are little more than animals” then the Arabs of surrounding states must rank even lower, is that not so?
There are many other factual errors in Video #2 but hey, time presses.
Vid #3: Propaganda opening, 242 is one of the most commonly mis-translated UN resolutions in existence today. Much of the rest appears to be images out of context. I do not accept such abuse of peoples’ hearts. I’m not going to watch the whole thing.
You have diminished my good will somewhat by this waste of time. Please be more precise in your “educational” efforts; you can’t just say, “read the Koran” or “watch this video”. As an example, and in part response, I offer my post, Why Israel Tolerates Arabs for consideration.
Amad
May 22, 2007 at 12:59 PM
Maybe you can also tell us why the ‘other’ side of the Israeli occupation always tends to get muzzled? If they are so gracious and just, why strangle the messenger everytime one tries to say anything (Carter comes to mind)
See for yourself
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Solomon2
May 22, 2007 at 3:13 PM
Amad, you probably know that Arabs often kill those accused of “collaboration” with Israel immediately and without trial. Such attacks upon Western politicians started in 1968 with the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy. No matter what Carter says or really thinks, he knows that as long as he wishes to travel and intermingle in places like Gaza to do election monitoring and the like, if he didn’t pay lip service by denouncing Israel his life expectancy would be short. The price Carter paid for the twisted accounts in his latest books has been the resignation from his employ of those academics who wish to maintain an honest reputation.
CNN and the other mainstream media outlets have stated publicly they put a reporter’s safety first. That’s one reason why Western reporting denouncing Arab violence in the Arab-Israeli conflict diminishes the closer he or she gets to an Arab community. The first video JD linked to shows that the worst a reporter can expect from an Israeli is tongue-thrashing, but from the Arabs, well, not every hostage is returned.
The other reason is that the Arab market for “news” is bigger than the Israeli one and the Western MSM has content-sharing agreements with its Arab counterparts, and these agreements give these Arabs some influence over editor’s selection of what stories to cover every day. Occasionally these matters become public themselves, as when CNN complained that Al-Jazeera was violating their content-sharing agreement by keeping its Osama bin Laden material an Al-Jazeera exclusive.
Judge Dredd
May 22, 2007 at 3:48 PM
Solomon2: “You have diminished my good will somewhat by this waste of time. Please be more precise in your “educational” efforts; you can’t just say, “read the Koran” or “watch this video”. As an example, and in part response, I offer my post, Why Israel Tolerates Arabs for consideration.”
Solomon2, Goodwill in the form of denial and rebuttal must be typical of the Israeli definition of Goodwill in the face of Israeli attrocities. The fact that Israelis have stolen the Palestinians land is an EVIL crime in itself let alone fastforwarding to these video clips. Your shortcoming is that you cannot see any crimes committed by your people.
What is the definition of NO goodwill?
behaviour that is demonic?
Amad
May 22, 2007 at 3:51 PM
Solomon, I have no idea what you are getting at. Let me clarify then what I stated because you obviously didn’t get it. What I meant by the “other side” was the reporting of the Palestinian suffering and the fact that it is indeed the Palestinians whose nation is being occupied (not the other way). As for any injustice committed by Palestinians on Israel (which is minuscule compared to the reverse), then that gets more press coverage than it ever deserves. Why is that reporting of Palestinian humiliation, suffering and humanness is muzzled in America? Even in Israel, Haaretz does a better job of reporting injustices than the media in America.
If anyone thinks that the reporting in America on the Israeli occupation is biased in Palestinian favor, then he or she is either (a) on AIPAC-administered drugs or (b) deranged.
See the video I linked to above.
As for Carter, he has ALWAYS been an upright and honest man. Unfortunately he isn’t the greatest of politicians, which is why the AIPAC sharks are gnawing at him from all corners for speaking the truth. This is also why your ilk will never be peace-makers, because you belie and distort voices of courage from NEUTRAL sources like Carter. To say that Carter can get anything monetarily or materially from supporting Palestine versus what he could have gotten for being Israel’s supporter is utter nonsense. I don’t know if you are American or Israeli, but for God’s sake, at least respect your OWN country’s president more than the foreign entity of Israel.
I think we are going in circles now and it is obvious that your only goal here is to present a one-sided, bigoted view of Israel. So, pretty soon we’ll be closing this thread. thanks.
Solomon2
May 22, 2007 at 4:13 PM
JD:
1) I was discussing my “goodwill” as in being willing to spend time on this conversation. We have to be specific or risk misinterpretation. Agreement, denial, and rebuttal are normal components of any argument, as anyone styling himself a “judge” should know.
2) The fact that Israelis have stolen the Palestinians land is an EVIL crime in itself.
Ah, specifics. But what is “EVIL”? Do you consider the Muslim Conquest of the Mediterranean, Persia, Mesopotamia, and India an “EVIL crime in itself” as well?
Judge Dredd
May 22, 2007 at 4:30 PM
Actually I have not styled myself – have you considered that “Judge” could be an integral part of me?
EVIL it seems is in the eye of the Israeli beholder and ofcourse clear to see for the rest of humanity.
Lets forget EVIL for one second and go to the opposite.
GOOD.
So, do you not think that for Israelis to show they are GOOD people, and they care for an area they have plagued with misery, they should not just get up and leave? Perhaps to Utah, or somewhere similar. Perhaps the Rothschilds can get together with the Fahds and pay $5million to each Israeli in terms of “relocation costs”.
Ruth Nasrullah
May 22, 2007 at 4:36 PM
Asalaamu alaikum.
When I started my Chronicle blog, one of the first things the editor advised me was “Don’t feed the trolls.” There are some debates that are worthwhile and some that will go on endlessly without resolution because the only point is to argue. This is one of the latter.
Solomon2
May 22, 2007 at 4:39 PM
Why is that reporting of Palestinian humiliation, suffering and humanness is muzzled in America?
I’m an American. I don’t watch TV much, but the typical “suffering humiliation” complaint I see on TV is somebody complaining that they are being delayed by Israeli roadblocks. That seems rather puny and indeed rather humane treatment, considering the threats to Israel from suicide bombers and rocket attacks. The “suffering” angle has been covered by reporters but it is getting to be old news, I think. Besides, with what is going on in Gaza and Lebanon today, why would people believe stories blaming “Zionists” for Palestinians troubles?
If anyone thinks that the reporting in America on the Israeli occupation is biased in Palestinian favor, then he or she is either (a) on AIPAC-administered drugs or (b) deranged.
One can only admire the mind that possesses such absolute knowledge, right? The “bias” the MSM naturally takes is that of profit, not propaganda.
As for Carter: He discovered some time ago that he could not always be both honest and neutral and made his choice. I did not suggest that he was seeking monetary or material gain, so why do you accuse me of this “utter nonsense”?
I think we are going in circles now and it is obvious that your only goal here is to present a one-sided, bigoted view of Israel.
I disagree about the “going in circles” part, because we’ve come a long way. However, Shavuos starts in a few hours so I’ll be incommunicado for over two days. I’ll try to pick up this thread and answer questions afterwards, if you so desire.
Solomon2
May 22, 2007 at 5:14 PM
So, do you not think that for Israelis to show they are GOOD people, and they care for an area they have plagued with misery, they should not just get up and leave?
Like how the Israelis got up and left Gaza, is that what you mean? There were many debates about where to establish a Jewish state at the beginning of the Zionist movement. The Ottomans offerred Mesopotamia and were rejected. The Brits offerred beautiful Uganda and that was taken very seriously, but the ultimate decision was that the only region of the world the Jews has a historical claim to their own state was Palestine. Immigration began as a trickle, as only the worst land was for sale, and swamps had to be drained and deserts recontoured for agriculture. Then the Brits issued the Balfour Declaration. seeking in exchange that the Jews would join the British, Arabs, and Kurds in the battle to free the middle east from Ottoman domination and give Arabs, Jews, and Kurds alike a chance for self-rule. The Kurds got shafted, and the land promised to the Jews was later reduced by two-thirds.
The Holocaust made the creation of Israel an imperative, but did not alter the substance of the bargain. Why, then, do you call upon the Israelis to show further goodwill – and this time by departing the region entirely? Is that not an EVIL impulse on your part?
Solomon2
May 22, 2007 at 5:23 PM
RN: We’ve wandered a long way from the original topic of this post. Perhaps transferring this thread to a new post would be more appropriate? I wince at the “troll” label, but what can I do? People are curious. Was it wrong for me to answer their questions?
Amad
May 22, 2007 at 6:09 PM
Solomon, did you see the video on the media muzzling by the Israeli interests in America (the one I linked above). Do you have anything substantive to offer as rebuttal for what is described clearly as a structured, well-financed attempt to control the media here, or are you going to engage in ad hominem arguments regarding the creators of the video (mostly Jews).
Judge Dredd
May 23, 2007 at 3:22 AM
Solomon2, it appears that your trollific tactics of debating or rather debutting are beginning to annoy and bore viewers/organisers of this site.
I do believe that it is good to engage even with the likes of you to show all the scanty logic used in your non-arguments. It is this scanty logic taken directly from the protocols of your leaders such as kahanists that has been applied by the whole Zionist movement both Internationally and specifically in evicting the poor Palestinians, continuously murdering them today, causing wars in Iraq, pushing for other wars (Iran) and destabilizing the whole of the middle east.
I will not debate any further with you about whether this is evil or good as I think it is clear for all to see that your questionable intent is sprinkeled by a covering of deliberate denial.
However, I end this “debate” with you on the note that your ilk have had it good so far but it is now the beginning of the end. It may get bad before it gets better for our Ummah, but for sure it is not going to get any better for your ilk. Pehaps it is time to crawl out of the state of denial and take accountability.
I would like to say that I will see you on some other thread, but based on the use of your scanty logic here I cannot really see myself rushing in to “debate” with you elsewhere.
I do always believe though that a leopard can change its spots and I would really reccomend that you try reading the Quran with an open heart and a desire to learn. This process could end up changing you for the better.
Judge Dredd
May 23, 2007 at 12:04 PM
Amad,
I had a brief look at the youtube film linked in your posting. It looks really good. I didnt have time today, but will snuggle up later on the sofa and watch it.
Thanks for posting the link.
Solomon2
May 29, 2007 at 11:58 PM
Back. Sorry about the delay, Shavous led right into Shabbes and then the Memorial Day weekend then work.
JD: I’m pleased that you find it “good” to engage the “likes” of me. I am surprised that you think that somewhere in our dialogue I have employed “scanty logic”. Do you mean scanty “facts”, perhaps?
I would really reccomend that you try reading the Quran with an open heart and a desire to learn.
I have read some of the Koran, only to appreciate better the Jewish rejection of both Islam and Christianity as summed up by the phrase: “What is true in them is not new, and what is new in them is not true.” Perhaps you’d like to study the Torah and Talmud to see for yourself? Oh, that’s right, our rabbis don’t permit Muslims to study these with us – they’re afraid you’ll lose your belief in G-d and become athiests!
Amad: I could deconstruct the film you linked to, but why should that be my responsibility? You’re not any less intelligent than I am. Don’t you think you have an obligation to check it out yourself, rather than blindly accept it at face value?
Rather than more tedious dialogue and analysis, I recommend the following video to each of you. You’ll have to watch the whole thing to get it, but it’s easy viewing, especially if you like cartoons about the Hereafter:
p1
p2
p3
p4
p5
p6
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