Get that Hijab Away… Turkey’s Secularists Traumatized! (2 UPDATES)

May 1, 2007 by Amad Islamophobia, Media, The World
53 comments

Updates:

(1) Hat-tip to Umm Zaid for pointing to this article in NY Times, and the news that Abdullah Gul has stepped aside under undemocratic pressure from Turkey's red-army. This is a moment for shame for all of Turkish citizens, and especially for the hypocritical supporters of anti-democratic forces, all in the name of a fear-tactics (the Islamic 'threat' is coming… seems almost like the Bush strategy is in the works there).
(2) Tariq Nelson has uncovered some pictures of Ataturk with his wife, in guess what, a full-blown hijab! What does the red-army have to say now? The pictures have been added below… Austrolabe has an entry and more links to pics (all have been added here).

What is going on in Turkey is what I call the classic case of double-standards exhibited by the West and is complicit media.

So, let's briefly review the situation:

Most Turkish people want Islam in their lives and in the public arena (not to force others, but just to practice individually).
A significant minority of them don't like much of anything about Islam, except for being Muslim by name (and that may be a little generous).
As advertised, in a 'Democracy', the people are supposed to decide who they want their civil servants/rulers to be.
Apparently, because of (1), more people are voting for the civil servants/rulers who share their liking to Islam. That is they are Muslims, not just by name, and want their leaders to be a bit more Muslim too.
Well, how dare they!
Democracy is only good if Muslims, let me qualify, practicing Muslims don't win. So, Algeria, unacceptable. Palestine, unacceptable. And Turkey, God forbid, an “Islamist” country (only in their wild speculations) in Europe, impossible.
Now it is okay if fundamentalist, rapture-believing, 'Left-behind' novel fanatics are elected in a country that is fast becoming a Christian theocracy. But, it is not okay, if some folks who are quite benign compared to any 'fundamentalist' or 'conservative' Muslims, are dare elected to any power, anywhere in the world.
Let me get this right: The Presidential position is open. Apparently the previous president was a secularist and kept the 'Islamist' aspirations of the Prime-Minister Erdogan in check. Of course the fact that Mr. Erdogan is hardly a fundamentalist (no beard, no hard-line views, no record of trying to promote any Islamic shariah agendas, etc.) does not matter.
1. So, Mr. Erdogan wished to nominate Abdullah Gul for the Presidential post, for no other reason than the fact that they share the same ideology. I mean would you expect Bush to have nominated Gore for his Vice-President? Bush nominated who shares his right-wild, I mean right-wing, beliefs.
2. Mr. Gul pledges to adhere to secularist principles, if he becomes President.
3. Of course, that is not enough. Even though the red-army of Turkey knows that they have the military power to overturn any form of 'Islamist' agenda, it is obvious that it is not the future agenda they have a problem with. It is the MUSLIMS, the PRACTICING MUSLIMS, they have a problem with.
4. So, what is Mr. Gul's grave shortcoming? His wife wears the hijab. Oh my God, what a catastrophe! How can the first-lady wear that piece of cloth when they kicked out a parliamentarian just for wearing it (she wasn't asking anyone else to do so, the poor woman just wanted to do it for herself). And this brave sister had to take refuge in America, leaving 'democratic' Turkey, her country of birth and religion, due to what any fair person would call religious oppression! Yes, indeed, Muslims can sometimes up-end their non-Muslim counterparts in oppression against Islamic symbols and practice (anyone remember Uzbekistan?).
So, Mr. Gul, you cannot become the President of a Democracy. Because the military says so.
Oh by the way, Mr. Gul, the Democracy is a facade. It only works when you are on the 'other side'. If you were fighting against the right of a woman to wear the hijab, you would be 'democratically' elected tomorrow. That's a guarantee!

This reminds me of what Shaykh Yasir said (in his speech on Xenophobia in UK):

â€œCorrect me if Iâ€™m wrong here, but the way I see it is that if you feel threatened by this piece (12″ by 6″) of cloth [hijab], you feel this is shaking your identity, and challenging who you are, then I think that shows your own prejudices, and your own fears, and your own xenophobia [not in Turkey's case], and your own hatred of our religion [yes in Turkey's case].â€

In conclusion, I initiated the post with a reference to double-standards. What did I mean by the double-standards of the Western governments and their media outlets? These lie in their tacit approval of the 'undemocratic' actions of the Turkish military. If you have been a casual observer to media reports on this political crises, there is an attempt by the media and politicians to be 'even-handed' with a slight favor towards the unjust party in this case (i.e. the military). But is even-handedness fair in this case? No, not at all. Rather being even-handed during injustice is injustice in itself. The hypocrisy of these governments and the media in not supporting and speaking out for Turkey's democratic institutions in favor of unfounded and speculative distrust of what these 'practicing' Muslims might be up to, is an outrage. Yes, this is another tacit form of Islamophobia, and yes Muslims 'only in name' can be Islamophobic as well. And where are the self-proclaimed Muslim 'liberals'… where is their support of 'democracy'? I am glad that such situations expose these 'liberal' charlatans as well.

For colorful commentary, make sure you also read Dr. Maxtor's “Turkey's paranoid (and dying) secular fascists protest over…nothing”

Post-Script:
As it was becoming obvious that the secularists and their army supporters would not let Abdullah Gul become the democratically chosen President (Presidents are chosen by the Parliament, and parliamentarians are chosen by the people), so Erdogan has called for early polls. This in response to the pressure from the Army Generals (whose minds and intellect are beholden to the dictator and Islam-hater Ataturk) and likely Army-organized march by hundreds and thousands (still a minority) of Islam-haters.

Smart move, Mr. Erdogan: this way the people can give you, Gul, and your party a fresh mandate. It's a foregone conclusion that you will win again, unless your Army buddies, with the help of the European hypocrites help rig the election (not out of the realm of possibilities).

About MuslimMatters

Muslimmatters.org began in 2007 as a collaboration between various Bloggers and Shuyukh in order to bring attention to issues faced by Muslims, especially in the West. We have focused on issues of Religion, Society, Ethics, Sex Education, Politics, Civil Rights, Family, as well as the random issues that pop up from now and then, all with some ranting and humor mixed in.

We challenge ourselves and our readers to engage in discourses that touch our lives as citizens of the West, while maintaining our individual Islamic identities: Ultimately to cooperate, but not to compromise.

Anon.

The funny thing is how the news agencies reported that the military would intervene “with the support of the people” to overthrow a democratically elected government…wha’?
Sequoia

Turkiye has never been as black or white as outsiders lead you to believe. While AKP did crush their opposition in 2002, they still managed to only recieve 35% of national vote. They have managed to provide stability in government and economy, though. AKP also tried to introduce laws that would make adultry illegal. So no AKP hasn’t institued sharia overnight, but I do believe there is valid concern. Much like here in America, Bush hasn’t completely destroyed the consitution, but he is slowly stripping away our freedoms. Also, I don’t think it is nessesarily fair to say the elite are the only ones opposed to AKP. There are many muslims “not only by name”, who support sharia within the home, but secularism in public. But it is correct to say the military continually over-steps its bounds and interefers with politics.
http://www.muslimmatters.org Amad

Sequoia, thank you for your comments. I am well aware of the 35% mandate. However, as you mentioned yourself, this was enough to ‘crush’ the opponents. Everyone will not be happy with every result, but everyone does have the opportunity to vote and live with what the majority decides in a ‘democracy’. Let the party that won then do what it has been given the mandate to. And by the way, what does a woman’s right to wear hijab have to do anything with secularism?

You mention the outlaw of adultery as if that is such a bad thing, although I understand your intention is likely not to defend adultery but to point out an ‘Islamist’ agenda. But is it really? At the same time, what about the freedom of wearing a hijab? What is worse then: implementing a law against adultery, an act forbidden by almost every major religion that leads to social disease and family breakdown (so this could be also considered as a moral agenda, not a religious one, similar to the Prohibition laws that were implemented in the States in the early 19th century), or implementing a law to prevent women from wearing Islamically-mandated head-coverings, that impacts no one else and is at the least not a social ill?

Ultimately, as you alluded to in the last line, my beef is with hypocrisy and double-standards. If you want ‘democracy’, then LIVE with its results. Otherwise, stop the facade and put the military dictatorship in power, so we can all call it like it is!
Hassan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6615627.stm

“The Turkish president is also the chief of the armed forces – he appoints the chief of general staff and would chair the meetings where any officers suspected of leading a religious private life are purged from the armed services.”

what!! A person in the army cannot lead a private religious life? Why is EU even considering them for membership? Or EU is like that as well? I think in western countries, America is much better than anyone else.
Sequoia

Amad, I think you are exactly right with the hijab issue and I think there is no place in any country to deny one the right to practice there religion as long as it doesn’t harm anyone. Obviously there is no harm to society if a woman chooses to wear a hijab, so I am in total agreement with you on that issue. As for the adultry issue, I still feel it should be left out of he penal code. Strength of family needs to come from the heart, not a law book. I know that is not what you are implying by any means. Just like religion itself. Many posters on here live in USA or tiny communities withi Canada (like Mouse). Yet faith flourishes freely, because it comes from the heart and desire. This is what we need to instill into families. But I agree that AKP should be allowed to govern the way they see fit. It is not their problem that CHP and everyother “secular” party was mostly corrupt. And I do get tired of the military threatening everytime they don’t like a certain policy (whether it has to do with AKP, Kurdish issues and Kirkuk) And I couldn’t agree with you more i your last line. People always like Democracies unless they lose.

I guess for a full disclosure….Turkey was the first country I ever lived in besides America. It was also my first time living near and next to Muslims. What started out as a supposedly a month vacation, turned into a 6 year life changing experience. I lived in Istanbul (Kadikoy, on the asian side), Izmir and Kayseri along with numerous vacations all over Turkey. Fell in love with the country and a girl.
http://www.muslimmatters.org Amad

Update: FT article is an example of media getting it right for once. See Turkey needs early elections.

One interesting quote from the article kind of sheds light on another angle here, where its not so much religion, but an ‘elitist’ twist to this (though that too is based on an elitist view of Muslims as backward):

“But underlying this clash is an unmistakable whiff of class animus. Many in the urban secular elites equate Islam with backwardness and fear that their socially liberal lifestyle will be constrained as observant Muslims from the Anatolian countryside gradually become a majority in Turkey’s cities. Both sides need to address these fears and attitudes openly.”
Anon.

Sequoia, from your experience of Turkey, were attempts to reconcile Islam and secularism widespread? What do the ulema over there call to?
http://arrihlah.blogspot.com dawud

I’m in Turkey at the moment, and I don’t think the xenophobia thing is too far off. The people organizing this protest and behind the military/state effort against Gul believe that while they wanted to be Europeans before, Europe is their enemy. It’s instructive that they have joined with right-wing nationalists in a belief in an ethnically and linguistically pure Turkey – and one book has been published with a Star of David on the cover, with Gul and his wife inside – another left-wing group has a poster with ABD-ullah Gul (ABD is the Turkey expression for USA – America Birlisik Devletler – United States of America) – ie, he is seen by a certain influential group, or at least portrayed by that group because of prejudices here, as a tool of America and Israel to make a ‘moderate Islam’ for the ‘Greater Middle East Project’ – and it should be noted that while they may share that belief with Islamists, these groups are hard-core Stalinists and Maoist leftwingers (often) who hate religion and religious people…
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http://IhavegotboredwithdictatorialMPACUKandamlookingforotherMuslimforums.MaybeIoughttogetmyownwebsite... Judge Dredd

I guess Turkey’s secular elite really need to be a part of Europe. This is the only way they feel they can gain entry. ie, make it know vocally that the 1 million or so “majority” secularist anti-muslims of the 70 million plus population are standing up for civilised western democratic values. It reminds me of that Hirsi lady who gained entry to the Netherlands under false pretence and gained popularity for her opposition to all things Islamic. Then there are examples of the “muslim” terrorists who converted to christianity to gain entry into the US as acceptable aliens – they apparently even held an Islam conference in Florida!

Whoa, I am watching the world through this weird eye glass and it is making me dizzy.
sequoia

Judge Dredd, actually the secular elite (or ultra nationalists) are extremely against joing the EU. It has been the “Islamic” party AKP that has done the most for reforms. Turkey is not an easy country to make assumptions on. The incident in Malatya (where Christian missionaries were tortured and throats slit), was influenced more by nationalist sentiments than religious. This is hard for many of us to understand, because either we are looking at Turkey through a Western perspective or as an Islamic percpective. From my past experience in the country, I still believe most just want moderation on al sides. Not too religious not too secular. It should make for an interesting summer.
http://www.mpacukisahomeboyoutfit.com Judge Dredd

sequoia,

It would appear at face value that the civillian secularists are pushing that front page. I am skeptical about this just as I was of the Young Turk movements organiser’s hidden agenda.
You see, the senior millitary staff want to be part of Europe and even US if they could and they are secularists so it doesnt make sense that the whole Turkish secularist movement is anti-europe.
sequoia

Judge Dredd, It does make sense to the Turks. There was a huge support for the EU a few years ago. but with the break in cease-fire with PKK many Turks view assencion into the EU as a hinderance on their way to fight or resolve the problems in the east of the country. PKK is a much more important issue for Turks than the headscarf (which I think all but the few ultra nationalists don’t have a problem with). The Kurdish probelm is the main reason what drove most secularists away from Europe.
http://www.nowebsiteyet.com Judge Dredd

sequoia,
I await to be convinced as to the anti-european stance of the whole of Turkey’s secularist movement. In addition it does not appear that the Turkish military machine is anti-europe. It is in the interest of the Turkish army to be pro-european, pro-nato, pro-anything that links it to the west. This is also an aspiring goal for the secularist business elite in Turkey.

The PKK is important to the Turks but it hasn’t quite seen the 1 million march or the threat of a Military takeover – this was only seen when the “threat” of Islam was percieved by them.
http://thesunnah.wordpress.com abu ameerah

No matter how anti-Islam and pro-Secular the Turkish people are (or are perceived to be)…

No matter how many protests and anti-Islamic slogans they chant…

The EU will ALWAYS be skeptical of Turkey.
http://www.nowebsiteyet.com Judge Dredd

I agree abu ammerah.

As long as Islam is practised freely in Turkey, it will be a threat. Maybe Turkey should take a few leafs out of the books of Germany, UK, Netherlands, France, Denmaek etc and become more Islamophobic, pro-Christian and pro-secular to fit in with their seeming peers.

Some senior figures amongst the EU archtects have always said that the EU was meant to be a Christian club.

The Pope has also inadvertently contributed to the Christian-ness of Europe.

The only way to convince the EU that Turks are as fair minded and civilised as their EU counterparts, is for some Turks to show how secular they are.

In the european mind, in the light of the recent rise in Islamophobia:

ISLAM= THREAT
SECULAR = GOOD
Turan

Always we are called Turks in history, when we were in Asian Steps, during immigration to west, before, now and in the future.

Even the time before we were Muslims, we were Turks .We are first Turks and after Muslims.
Most of the commenters here are Muslims because we have converted their grandfathers.Now again time to convert, to what we want.

As we are the lions af Allah, now he has given us the duty to purify Islam, and we will do it.You can only watch, cry like babies and see.

We are Turks, and Turkey is our land, we did what we have wanted and we will do what we will want here.
If you don’t believe me ask your greedy Arabic Grandfathers about Turkish Pashas, they will tell you what will happen when you start to make trouble.

There is no way for Arab Nationalism Arab lifestyle in our land. We don’t like you and your culture.

Believe me , when necessary we will crush you and your followers like insects.We did it before, and we will do it again.
Hassan

Turan, I believe most of the people on this blogs are non-arabs. And you are most welcome not to submit to Arab rule, no one should. Just submit to the rules of the Creator.
http://www.muslimmatters.org Amad

And Turan, the point is?
Suhail

Assalaam Alykum

The point is nothing but just a rant Amad, Turan needed to vent his anger and he did. LOL. Turkey is just an example about how the dictators have shaped the muslim nations. Just like Turkey , Pakistan is also plagued with army hard handedness. Also you would see this in Algeria and other muslim countries. Kinda similar eh.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail
http://www.muslimmatters.org Amad

Wasalam, Br. Suhail… Talking about Pakistan… really in the backdrop of the current events there and government-sponsored attacks on rallies and subsequent murders… really, Turkey looks so MUCH better. At least the government of Turkey does not sit in bullet-proof capsules, giving permission for government-backed rogue elements to shoot at demonstrators. The complicity of MQM with Busharraf, remote-controlled by the freaky terrorist Altaf Hussein, cannot be excused.

If someone wants to write up something on the situation in Pakistan, we will definitely consider posting it. Just email it.
Turan

Amad,

The point is, can you tell me where in the Quran, the headscarf, or the uniform on this page, is clearly described for women?

As I know it was Hammurabi who first ordered women to put on a headscarf, many many years ago.

Does it sound logical (Islam is very logical) to you, for a religion which is sent to all times and all of the universe, to be that much strict on women dressing?

Or, does it sound logical to you, for a religion which gives very high importance to equality for humanbeings, to order such restrictions just for women?

Today, when you look the thing that is called Islam and compare it with the right source which is called Quran, you can clearly see that they are two different things. So time has come, and Allah has given this duty to my nation, Turks, again, like he gave the duty to spread and extend Islam many years ago which we have completed, TO PURIFY ISLAM AND GO BACK TO THE SOURCE, QURAN.

Can’t you see, Christian world is just making fun of Muslims, and the religion so called “Islam”.

In Islam belief, human, is the reflection of Allah on the mirror, don’t you know that.
Human is the most important thing, don’t you know that.
Look at the today’s Muslim world, where is the Human?
A slave, nothing more.
ISLAM is against slavery, do not forget it.

In Turkey, we are talking about this, what we are trying to do is this. I can understand it is beyond your imagination, so let call us “Seculars”, no problem it was also beyond your grandfathers imagination what we have done centuries ago.
Abu Bakr

When ignorant people with no knowledge of the Arabic language nor the other ‘Ulum essential for the mufassir attempt to interpret the Qur’an, the results can be disastrous.

Turan, would you care to share with us what your qualifications are to interpret the Qur’an other than:

((So time has come, and Allah has given this duty to my nation, Turks, again, like he gave the duty to spread and extend Islam many years ago which we have completed, TO PURIFY ISLAM AND GO BACK TO THE SOURCE, QURAN.))
Turan

Father of Bakr,

What are your qualifications?

I think with your mentality, probably you wouln’t have believe Hz.Muhammed if you would have live in his time.

If you need a diploma, check the link below which will tell you something about one of the leaders of this movement.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2001/519/intrvw.htm
Abu Bakr

Looks like an opportunist pandering to the masses to gain popularity. Either that, or his heart is diseased from that illness called Kemalism.

What good is speculating about my faith, brother? We live in the here and now and your actions and and statements show that you want to throw the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) behind your back so that you can give this man and others like him the right to “re-interpret” the Qur’an.

As for the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم), you people give him no such right to interpret the Qur’an. Ultimately, you must realize that by rejecting the authority of the Sunnah alongside the Qur’an, you have rejected the Prophet’s right to explain the Qur’an while the Qur’an has charged the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) with the duty of explaining the revelation to mankind.

And as for my qualifications, it doesn’t really matter because there is a difference between me and our friend in the link: I make no claim of offering up new interpretations of the Qur’an.
http://www.muslimmatters.org Amad

Salam.. to be honest, I am glad Br. Turan is here. He provides us an insight, a door into the minds of the Turkish secularists. We can start to understand their thought process, and what leads them to have the despise and the fear of any Islamic elements. So, let me me build a little theory here. Please excuse my ignorance and my speculative discourse:
So, what Ataturk did is nothing short of genius (Satanic genius, but still genius). He changed the language of his people from Arabic text to latin, so that people could not really read the Quran for themselves. Similar to pre-Reformation for Catholics when the Bible was not in the language of the common people, which allowed the Church to have complete control.
Then Ataturk forces completely removed the love of Sunnah, of hadith, etc. from the hearts of people, except to leave the ‘fake’ love of the Prophet (i.e. in celebrating him as a personality but not as a teacher with a message complementary to the Quran). Once this was done, not only were the people removed from the Sunnah, they also became dependent on others to read/understand the Quran. This way you are free to interpret the Quran whichever way you wish. It is no different from Parvezis or other “Ahlul Quran” folks that have existed throughout the ages.
Finally, these tribal forces instilled the love Turkish ethnicity/nationalism to the point that it exceeded the allowable love (the allowable love is the natural love that one has to his nation, culture, etc.). So, Turkish identity was made superior to Islamic identity. While many of our readers are from all sorts of backgrounds (the editorial board itself is composed of a variety of races and ethnicities); we are yet to witness this sort of pride in one’s “tribe” on this young blog. This is another departure from what the Prophet (S) emphasized: the end of the ‘tribe mentality’.

Combine all the factors above, and we can see why Turan thinks the way he is. And this is just my thoughts based on Turan’s own words.

Br. Turan, my purpose of listing these were not to offend you, but an attempt to understand you. I hope you TOO will make an attempt to understand why we feel that your message is contradictory to the message of Allah. We are brothers first, before we are Turks, Pakistanis, Egyptians, Americans, etc. So, if you wish to dialog, drop the hammer and the chip on your shoulder for a bit, and let’s discuss this in an amiable manner.

wasalam

http://www.drmaxtor.blogspot.com DrM

“Turan” was trolling this same sort of nonsense on my blog by under the guise of “science and logic.” Odd that he misquoted a Hadith despite being a Hadith rejector.
How “logical” is it to worship a shyphilitic alcoholic like that sabbatean munafiq Ataturk and claim to want to stick to the Qu’ran?
This isn’t about Hijab which the majority of Turkish woman wear. Its about aging kemalist generals being out of touch with their populace who are trying to maintain their grip on power.

Turan

Dear brothers, sisters;

When I look at the people in this blog I see that most of you are Muslims living in western world.
You are living in developed western world , gaining every benefit of it but dreaming an Utopia, let me call it Imaginary Muslimland.
But, as so called “Seculars” we are living in Muslim world.

The main difference between you and us is we are in the circle, you are out of it. This circle is our home, not yours. What we’re trying to do is “Developing the home”, and I can understand that it may annoy you .
Because you probably think that “It is our circle too, whether we have never been there or whether we are not living there”

Let me ask you some questions;
Why western world is very tolerant to swindler sheikhs and mollas in their countries?
Why especially Britain and USA always supports fanatical sheikhs, mollas and let them live in their countries?
Why USA and Britain always supports , fundamental Islamists in Turkey ?
Why CIA spent billions of dollars for building the “Green Belt”
Why George Soros is giving millions of dollars to Islamic NGOs in Turkey? As I know he is jewish.
Or another question why do they let all of you live in their lands, with your totaly opposite beliefs for them ?

Please don’t tell “Democracy”.

Nothing good for Muslims has ever come from the west before and nothing will come in the future. As so callled “seculars” we will go back the source Quran, and let the crescent and star shine again

P.S.
” So, what Ataturk did is nothing short of genius (Satanic genius, but still genius). He changed the language of his people from Arabic text to latin, so that people could not really read the Quran for themselves. Similar to pre-Reformation for Catholics when the Bible was not in the language of the common people, which allowed the Church to have complete control. ”

Dear Amad,
Yes you are rigt we were using Arabic before, but we were writing in Turkish and talking in Turkish. So even that time when someone was reading Quran he was not able to understand.
Ataturk, the Genius saviour of Islam, has changed the alphabet, after literacy rasied to almost 100%. It was below 5% during Arabic letters.
One of the very first acts of Ataturk was letting Quran to be translated into Turkish and printing thousands of copies and sending them all over Turkey. Let the people try to understand Quran.
I think you have to study some Turkish History if you want to comment on it.

http://nuqtah.wordpress.com Nuqtah

[quote]Ataturk, the Genius saviour of Islam [/quote]

Bawhahahaaha, i’m in stitches..

http://muslimmatters.org Abu Bakr

saviour? that DRUNK WOMANIZER?

Abu Bakr

Kemalist fascism at work:

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/5478796.asp?gid=74&srid=3289&oid=1&l=1

Iceman

Also im sick of people saying ataturk was a jew or gay or kafur or whatever, there is no proof for any of these allegations. I cant understand why no1 doesnt bring allegations like this to the there own leaders for example how do we know that the saudi royal family arnt jewish? or kafur? they allow kafurs(50thousand+ US soldiers to protect there lands) I guess USA soldiers are the protectors of mekkah and medinah because its in saudi arabia. Also lets look at what happened with jerusalam, if ataturk was so anti islamic and a kafur wouldnt you think he wouldve done something to hand that place over to the westerners or make it impossible for the turks to keep control over it. NO he didnt do anything of the sort and if at the time he was in full power he wouldve done anything in his power to keep that land and any remains of the empire that they could control. Where as if you look at the biggest critisizers of ataturk and turks in general (arabs) what did they do when the western powers attacked that region of the empire? they sided with the west to kick out the turk from that region and all other arab regions(i thought where all muslims and there is no nationalism? arabs was the biggest pushers of nationalism and still are to today) anyways when the brits eventually took control over jerusalam with arab help( keeping weaponary and food from coming with railroad attacks, makeing uprisings, doing anything and everything to make the turks loose) the arab people living in that area didnt say anything and lived happily under british rule of the holy land.. So why werent they fighting? Kafurs(brits) conquered jerusalam why not fight? you thouht your muslim brothers (turks).. So in any case stuff like this made all turks sick. In removeing the arabic dialiect to latin, well the turks always spoke turkic even b4 the ottoman empire even b4 the seljuk turk empire, they can still read the quran as good as they have ever read it because turks never spoke arabic as a 1st language ever, so if they read it in turkish with arabic dialect the understanding will be the exact same as in the latin dialect because the language there reading it is in turkish. So it makes no difference and at the time they could see the western powers where all rising and dominating the world so in this sense it would be easier to communicate with your european neighbors.

You say alot of turks are only muslim by name, lets see now most arabs/pakis/afghans etc who like to say this about turks think they are all such good muslims all because they pray and have a 2 meter beard. But they never look at themselves most people like this pray and all but there character is bad e.g 1 they are ussually rude and ignorant to any1 who is not like them 2 put MONEY in the middle of any situation and see how quick they 4get there religion and rip you off or steal your money or borrow your money and never give it back 3 they gloriffy idiots like saddam hussain, ossama, nasser etc does any of these people follow islam properly? i doubt it. saddam attacked iran 4 no real reason killing 1mil+(good muslim in there books) nasser was a hard core sand people nationalist, and ossama is a terrorist if what they report about him is correct.. At least if a turk decides to follow islam they do it properly and the 1s that dont you can clearly tell he doesnt follow(but he may inn the future hes choice). Where as in the other regions you cant tell who is who because its sorta like culture to have a beard, or dress traditionally or to talk about islam this and that etc… In conclusion 1st look at your own nations b4 saying anything about the powerful and glorious nation of turkiye..

The secularist idea for turkey was what they thought was gonna be good for the country at the time and is what they still think is good for the country because you have to many minority ethnic groups in turkey 10mil kurds, 15mil alevis, then theres armenians,greeks,assryians even alot of sand people in the south east.The secularist ideology make all groups call them selves turks. So to keep every1 happy they seperated religion from politics. Maybe its time for a change but its all up to the military.

iceman

Hey whats the deal? why did you guys take away my posts?

http://www.muslimmatters.org ibnabeeomar

foul language and inappropriate posts will be moderated

Muhammad Al Faatih

iceman/Turan is a foul-mouthed, abusive and racist Kemalist and “Turkish” supremacist. Though I doubt he has any Turkish Oguz blood in him, but quite possibly Larz, Kurdish, Muslim Greek or Muhacir (immigrant) blood e.g. from the Balkans and Caucasus.

He places being Turkish over being Muslim. Allah is the one who created all human beings and the universe before there was any nation be it Turks, Arabs, Afghans, Bengalis, Malays or whatever.

A lot of what he says is nonsensical rubbish.

1. The modern Turkish identity is based on the Muslim Anatolian peasantry transferring their primary allegiance to Islam and their Ottoman identity to Turkish nationalism and to the Jamhooriya (Arabic word for Republic, which Turks spell as Cumhurriyet). AtaPUT and his fascist henchmen made all Anatolian Muslims be they Turks, Larz, Muhacirs, Greek Muslims, Hemshin Muslims, Kurds declare themselves as Turks. He did not believe in ethnic pluralism but in a rigid mono-ethnic semi-fascist state. Iceman mentions a few Assyrians but officially Turkey is a 99% Muslim state. However the major non-Muslim group there are atheist Kemalists and not Christians.

2. Iceman/Turan engages in childish Arab-bashing when hardly anyone here is an Arab but from what I can gather from a South Asian (primarily) Pakistani heritage. For the record, the Yemeni, Egyptian, Palestinian Muslims all supported the Ottoman state as they knew it was a religious obligation despite being alienated by the racist policies of the CUP, Young Turks. The Kemalist education system brainwashes Turks to hate Arabs from a young age on the basis that the tribes of the Hejaz who revolted against the Ottomans represent the whole of the Arab world.

3. Kemalism is extremely intolerant of the non-Muslim minorities in Turkey and apart from a few donmeh such as Ismail Cem and others, no non-Muslim would be able to do much in Turkey where the CUP engaged in mass ethnic cleansing of Christians. However in Egypt there are 7 million plus Christians and millions of Christians in other Arab states as well as non-Muslims of other religions in countries such as Iran, Bangladesh, Pakistan and so on.

4. Iceman/Turan represents Kemalism in all its racist, authoritarian, illogical and intolerant “glory”. Iceman speaks of Turks converting people’s grandfathers. Who were the first Muslims, Turks or Arabs? Even today in Turkey you can hear the Adhan in every village, town and city in Arabic: Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar and so on.

As for Turkish military prowess.

1. Why is it Christian Armenia defeated Turkic Azeris in Nagorno-Karabakh and made 1 million Azeri Turks refugees?

2. Why is it in the late 1980s, Bulgaria expelled 300,000 Turks from their country and Turkey could not do anything?

I am not happy about either of those two events but it refutes the Nazi-like racial supremacism of iceman/Turan and his primitive and backwards Kemalist ideology.

iceman/Turan has been flooding the internet with his anti-Islam and anti-Turkiye propaganda but Kemalists like him will never defeat Islam or destroy Turkiye.

http://www.muslimmatters.org Amad

assalamalaikum Br. Muhammad, thank you for the comment. Are you from Turkey as well?

Asim Rauf

Brother Muhammad Al Faatih , you have said rightly. You made a nice comments on these icemen/ Turan who are traitors. Muslims should start the Islamic Revolution in Turkey. Allah Hu Akbr.

Mohamed al Faatih

1. The reason why the armenians defeated the azerbaijanis in karabah is because of russian help, orginally the azeris where winning until the russians helped out. Turkey tried to help but if they invaded then they wouldve had a massive war with russia directly, so the leadership of the time choose not to go ahead with it. same as in bosnia when they called turkey to intervein but again if they went to war russia also said they would move in aswell so they decided to stay back and so did russia and only help with weaponary. Turkey still has an embargo on armenia up until today but they have no help so they have to be careful, the EU is already demanding they remove the embargo and open up trade routes to armenia which must go threw turkey which turkey has refused so far. Its a complicated situation and turkey has no allies to help out. if turkey does anything they would be under embargo by the UN. see my point you cant just fight and thats it you need support especially financial and you need a large amount of countries to agree with what your doing. Not even muslim nations are in favour of that for turkey so how can they go? they obviously cant for now… iraq is fully taken over and people are dieing everyday, where is pakistan? why dont they send an army to fight? where is saudi arabia? where is any of the muslim nations who sulk about turkey and the kemalists being anti islam. You guys are supposed to be the good muslims and turks are bad muslim, why hasnt any of your countries sent armies to iraq to fight?

2. Turkey itself has been involved in sending and swapping mass number of people from certain countries, so when the bulgarians decided to send these turks back you cant go to war over it because you would be a hypocrite… And the turkish military isnt that stupid like the the arabs are eg iraq invaded kuwait and the world invaded iraq. See my point you have to use your brains if turkey messes with any1 in europe and not be careful about it, they may find themselves under attack or under embargo by all of the EU… turkey isnt the worlds powerfullest country anymore you have to pick your battles and be very careful or you might end up as saddam. dead and disgraced.

3. Turks dont trace there origins to anatolian muslim peasantry or the oghuz turks settlement of that area, they where just a major group who happened to settle in that area, there was also tatars, azeris, kipchaks, turkomens etc etc but we are all turks and these things are minor as a group we are turks. You can even trace back these things all the way back to the gok turks. These small things dont matter and is irrelivent. You cant trace every single persons blood line to who they are and who there mixed with. If your a turk then your a turk thats that.

4. The egyptians did betray the ottoman empire by help of the british they kicked them out, then they allowed british and anzac troops build up in that country and plan an attack and then an invasion of galipolli etc etc… Palestinians didnt help out in the battle of 1917 when the british took over palestine and they lived under british rule without fighting them at all until they saw the jews where immagrating to that land. Why didnt they fight the british and appose british/KAFUR rule? what happened to all this talk about holy land, kafur invaders, jihad etc etc? i guess the british where honourary muslims who where allowed to rule jerusalam.lol. Even when the ottoman ruled palestine or should i say (ISREAL) there was a few uprisings against ottoman rule by the palestinians it was when the ottomans where at war with the russians in the 1800s, when you turn your back to fight a powerful enemy thats when the arabs attack.BACK STABBERS. As for the Yemeni well i dont know to much about them, so i cant say. But there arabs and im sure they must have been happy when the ottomans where fineally loseing there power and falling apart. The Young turks got into power because the turkish people saw that the so called muslim brothers where jealous and hated the fact the turks where rich, powerful etc and themselves where living like scum in the desert poor and unhappy with ottoman rule, But they all kept there mouths shut and acted as brothers/friends to the ottoman turks but in there heart they had hatred towards turks and when the turks became weak all there hatred showed up and they had no mercy towards turks at all… How else do you explain arabs, kurds, armenians, greeks, assyrians etc all living under ottoman rule and living peaceful with turks and then all of a sudden when they can see the turks have been weakend they start the slaughter of turks but sulk when the turks regain there strengh and the tables turn… Do you ever hear turks sulk about the millions of deaths these people made towards the turks? do turks ever claim genocide or anything like that?NO…

5. In turkey today there are about 1mil armenians, heaps of greeks, a million+ kurdish christians who ran away from iraq and turkey saved by allowing them to live in turkey etc etc.. They all live peacefully in turkey with no REAL complaints… Also in egypt the christian and the muslims are always fighting and have deep hatred for each other, so i dont know why your useing that as an example? ( Also turkey isnt 99% muslim, possibly its about 90% muslim and thats being generous). Jews live peacefully in turkey and have so for hundreds of years can any muslim nation in the world say the same? Yemen kicked out thousands of jews for no real reason, egypt kicked out jews when nasser was in power, jews would be harrassed in any muslim country if they show they are jewish. I would love to see a jew walk the streets of saudi arabia wearing traditional jewish clothes and we will see what happens to him. Turkey is most likely the most tollerant majority muslim nation towards minoirties…. -Kemalists didnt brain wash turks to hate arabs, people hate who hates them and arabs hated turks and ottoman/seljuk rule for hundreds of years and when the killings started all turkish people knew arabs had more hate for us than our kafur enimies, so turks all knew arabs where scum who hated us and naturally we dont like them in return…

6. You say christian minorities live well in pakistan etc.LOL pakistan has a class system which discriminates with how rich you are, (remember the case of the rich guys daughter being with the poor guys son and in return the rich guy had to have sex with the poors guys daughters or wife or whatever i forget the specifics but this kind of stuff happens all the time in pakistan). If a paki muslim converted to christianity what would happen to him? he would be killed. am i lieing?. pakistanis fight with hindus all the time. remember when they had to send the hindus to india in exchange for muslim indians what did they do? they killed all the hindus on the train and sent a bunch of dead bodies. sunni/shia killings happen alot in pakistan and tribal fighting etc etc. Im supprised you even mentioned pakistan as a tolerant country to minorities or to any1 at all…

7. I only spoke about turks converting and mixed marriages (by choice of the people) because you mentioned georgian turks etc and all i ment to say was that these people are turks where all turks, your trying to make a divide where as this is backward thinking and we dont need any of that kind of thaughts in turkey… thats all i ment to say..

8. The 1st muslims are unknown of race because the arabs werent the 1st muslims what about the thousand of jewish people who became muslim and followed prophet moses? Arabs started the spread of islam in the 6th centry at the start but then others spread it aswell. As for the azhan being in arabic and the religion and all, well allah choose that language for some reason which i dont know but it OBVIOUSLY has nothing to do with the arab people because arabs only make up 18% of the islamic people of the world and other races who converted to islam immediattely took over power and started doing there own spreading etc like the persians,seljuks,mongolians who converted, berbers, africans, indians, etc etc….. Religion is not by race it is by that persons own personal connection to allah and hes own actions in this world which would dictate what happens to him in the other world…

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JALEES

as long as-and INSHAAHALLAH it shall reamin forever-the holy remains of HAzrat Abu Ayub ansari-razi Allahun ho,the host of Holy Prophet-peace of Allah on him-is present in the land of Turkey,nothing can happen to this land of Allah.The land waited after the burial of HAzrat Abu AYub Ansari-razi Allahunho-for 800 years and then theturks became Muslim to take hold of the responsibility of Khilafat.The light of Islam can never be wiped out.It is the NOOR of LA ILAHA ILLAHO MUHAMMAD UR RASOOLALLAH.Please dont worry

Dhulqarnain

Turkey is the most Extreme secular country in the World!
They are worse than All the Secular countries COMBINED!!
What i think is a disgrace, is that even the so-called “muslims” support this radical view!!
Those Muslim Countries that adopt man-made Laws, are insulting the Infinite Wisdom of Allah(‘azza wa jal), and i’m not only mentioning Turkey, but even the Country where my parents were born(morocco) also share this Insulting View!!
I sincerely hope that a Taliban Style Movement with the Efficiency of Iran, would Arise in Morocco!!
I would leave Europe and Join my TRUE Brothers in Islam to make G’ds Law as the Highest Law in the land!!
Insha’Allah!

Amim

Dear brothers & sisters,

Please dont take Br. Turan to be the sole representative of the muslims in turkey. I have met wonderful muslims from Turkey in Australia.

We are muslims first … having submitted to the will of Allah.

On the topic of Br. Turan’s refusal to accept the islamic tradition of Hijab. Please see the wikipedic entry below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jilbab

The plural of jilbāb, jalabib, is found in the Qur’an, verse 33:59 (sura Al-Ahzab). The verse in transliterated Arabic and the translation of Yusuf Ali goes:

Ya ayyuha an-Nabiyy qul li azwajika wa banatika wa nisa al-mu’minin yudnina alayhinna min jalabib hinna; dhalika adna an yu’rafna fa laa yu’dhayn. Wa kana Allahu Ghafur Rahim

O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their [jalabib] (Jilbabs) over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

The word jilbab is also found in some hadith (oral traditions later recorded). One such hadith follows:

Narrated Umm Atiyya: We were ordered to bring out our menstruating women and screened women to the religious gatherings and invocation of the Muslims on the two Eid festivals. These menstruating women were to keep away from the musalla. A woman asked, “O Messenger of Allah! What about one who does not have a jilbab?”. He said, “Let her borrow the jilbab of her companion”. (Sahih Bukhari, Book 8, #347)

You can also find Kemal Ataturk & his wife’s photo wearing jilbab.

Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan and muslim community in India contributes more than half a billion muslims.

85% muslims are non-arabs. To deepen our understanding of Islam, we must study in Arabic. Its not to say that Urdu, Turkish, Bengali are not useful languages ….. even if you know arabic, that alone wont qualify you to deny islamic scholastic tradition since 6th century.

There are issues we dont need to argue about and hijab is one of these.

I am not sure whats Br Turan’s intentions are.

May Allah SWT guide him to the right path.

My sincere advice is .. study the arabic language and learn it well enough to understand the quran and dont claim supremacy over others by confining yourself to nationalistic fervour.

My favourite cartoon was the conquest of Istanbul (constantinopole) … and leading from the front was Sultan Muhammad II (son of Sultan Murad II).

We are proud of the righteous rulers from the Usmani Khilafat ( Ottoman) .. and we are also proud of Iranian contribution to Islam.

Islam is Allah’s deen and who is better than Him as the protector. You will meet many wonderful people in the west who are non-muslims and some of them will definitely enter Islam as they are all hungry for answers. So brother turan, please dont do yourself any disservice by denying the truth. Do you not fear Him ?

Study Islam, learn the arabic language and i am sure one day you will not refute the truth.

May Allah guide you.

Best wishes from Amim, Bangladesh.

rica ederim.

Dudu

You are all absulatelythe most ignorant people I’ve ever seen. In Turkey seculars are not minority,religious votes are estimated to be 20-25%,not all AKP voters are religious. BSecularism is part of Turkish identity,who the hell are you to talk about my country’s leader and my people in that way? Tehere’sd no place for arab culture in my land!

Sorry to rub it in Dudu but ur hardcore, radical extremist, ataturk-butt-kissers r no longer in power. The hijab is now allowed again alhamdulillah. Your oppression of muslim women by forbidding their freedom of expression and religion by forcing them to choose between education and a piece of cloth is OVER.

Shame on the so-called secularists for being afraid of a simple piece of cloth. You can oppress everyday muslimS but u can’t remove the love of Allah from their hearts.

Oh and we’ll talk about our bros and sis in turkey as much as we want because the ties of faith that bind us muslims far outweigh your artificial and hollow ties of nationalism and radical secularism.

Turkey’s Muslims 1, Turkeys fascist secularist 0

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http://google.com/group/soma-for-you/web/ Soma

Soma would make you happy!

http://google.com/group/soma-for-you/web/

Tolga

i read you comment.. and i awfully see how you beleive what you want to believe. Just smiling at you :). The turkey is mainly secularist.Sheria law is in the too long past. Even no one arguae about sheria law is good or not. If you wish you may i have no objection with my respect.

http://pathologicaliar.blogspot.com Ismail

Don’t these secularists, the self-proclaimed “champions of democracy and humanity” think they’re surrounded by enemies who need to be annihilated? The “Islamists”, the Kurds, the Armenians, the Greeks, the Cypriots etc.

Just remember; they can plot and plan however much they want to, but Allah is the best of planners, as evidenced by the changing climate of Turkey.

randominitializer

This is one interesting forum you have got here brothers(and sisters!). I just Discovered this site accidentally and quite pleased now that I did so. One question that I really need to be clear about is whether Ataturk was a Muslim or a Freemason? I have found some non-Muslim scholarly sources where the scholars argued with evidence that Ataturk was a freemason. Can somebody shed some light here?

Amad

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