Soccers & Hijab, Maybe… But SAUNAS & Hijab?!

March 29, 2007 by Zainab (AnonyMouse) Integration and Interactions
38 comments Tags: Integration

Now this is interesting: Wearing hijaab at the sauna!

After reading the article, I find that there are a variety of things to take issue with (in no particular order):
1. Why would a Muslimah go into the sauna and pool at regular hours anyway? I'm pretty sure that in most/many places, a group of Muslimahs will book to reserve the pool and/or accompanying facilities for the private use of the community's Muslimahs. That way, Islamic regulations regarding gender segregation and the issue of hijaab can all be followed, while allowing Muslimahs to kickback and relax.

2. Health IS an issue. I'm pretty sure no one – Muslim or not – wants to suffocate in a sauna because they're wearing too many clothes. Hence, back to the idea of renting the pool/sauna privately so that the sister(s) can have fun without wearing an 'abaayah and khimaar and running the risk of… whatever it is that they might possibly be at risk of.

3. Going back to issue #1 – why go at regular hours? Assuming it's not a women's-only health club (the article didn't specify), then it means that there are guys who can walk in there as well… not to mention that most people there are probably half-naked! And as we know, it's not correct forus as Muslims to be around those openly doing something wrong, or something that might lead us to something wrong.
Now, some people might bring up the issue of how walking on the street is enough for our eyes to fall upon something incorrect, so in that case we may as well all stay at home. But this is something different… when in the streets, we can't really do anything about it except try to get away from it ASAP. However, when you go to a health club, or a pool, or wherever, you have a CHOICE. You can CHOOSE to remain in that company, or you can remove yourself from that environment. It's not an issue of neccessity, as walking in the street is; it's an issue of enjoying yourself vs. pleasing Allah. We can have fun in other ways that don't contradict the Sunnah.

Again, it's relatively simple to reserve the same facility for a private session, so that other Muslims/ Muslimahs can have the same halaal experience.

4. Mr Hargey, chairman of muslim group MECO, said: “If this woman wants to wear this garb it's not Islamic custom, it's a cultural tradition which has nothing to do with faith.”

That statement reeeeaaaaaallllyyyyy bugs me. I've been hearing it quite often lately – that the khimaar and/or 'abaayah 'has nothing to do with faith', when indeed it has EVERYTHING to do withit! I don't really want to start another flamewar wherein people furiously argue for/against the khimaar and/or 'abaayah, but I DO want to say that I really don't think that man had the right to say it's only 'cultural tradition'. A great many Muslim women wear the 'abaayah not because it's “cultural tradition” – for many, such as 'white' convert sisters, African-American sisters, even Desis, it's not at all a part of our culture – but because they really believe it's a required part of the hijaab. Will this man then say otherwise? Laa hawla wa laa quwwata illaah billaah! There is no might or power except with Allah! (For any non-Muslim readers here, this is a phrase that Muslims often use as an exclamation of surprise or shock, sometimes accompanied by a sad shake of the head and a 'tsk tsk'! ;) )

And finally, I have a sneaking suspicion about the whole thing. It seems disturbingly like a publicity stunt designed to bring even more negative attention to Muslims – but that could just be the conspiracy theorist in me talking ;)

Your little sister in Islam,
Mouse

Tags: Integration

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Muslimmatters.org began in 2007 as a collaboration between various Bloggers and Shuyukh in order to bring attention to issues faced by Muslims, especially in the West. We have focused on issues of Religion, Society, Ethics, Sex Education, Politics, Civil Rights, Family, as well as the random issues that pop up from now and then, all with some ranting and humor mixed in.

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Moiez

Here something else to add to that a sister in austrailia has invented something called a “berkini” for muslim women who want to go to the beach. I watched this clip on islamchannel.com in the news section on the bottom. basically it looks like a diving suit with the hips being slightly covered you should look at that and check out where we are going, we are trying to act like the kafirs by going to beaches, i mean think what if you were do die while at the beach what would you say to Allah. Fitnah everywhere on the beach, Laa hawla wa laa quwwata illa billa. and this i believe is just the begining. Allah hualim may Allah forgive us.
Umm Layth

That ‘berkini’ is ridiculous and to think that there are people out there promoting it as ‘modest’ and ‘within the shari`ah limits’…subhaanallaah
anonymous

“Health IS an issue. I’m pretty sure no one – Muslim or not – wants to suffocate in a sauna because they’re wearing too many clothes”

LOOOOL. That totally cracked me up :) The thought of sitting in a sauna fully clothed like that is horrifying to me. I can’t imagine how uncomfortable it would feel. I will say however that most saunas are segregated. I think they usually have an area designated for men and one for women so I don’t think that would really have been an issue. I’m not sure about this being a conspiracy issue but I do agree with you that this is another issue that will bring negative publicity/image to muslims and in particular muslim women.

The reserving the pool or gym/pool/spa is a great idea btw. I’ve never actually done that or been to any event involved with that but it definitely sounds fun :) And considering the fact that the gym did have a dress code I think it would have been much more reasonable on her part to do something like that

And to Moiez. Personally I think the Burqini and other variations of muslimah swimwear is a great idea. I really don’t see the problem with it nor do I think going to the beaches is acting like the kuffar. I’m from North Africa originally and there are so many beautiful beaches that I’ve been to. Arab muslims (and christians) come from all over the middle east to vacation there and there is no shortage of muslim women (including many of my relatives) wearing these types of “Islamic” bathing suits. And some actually do just wear their full robes and everyday clothing as the woman in the article did to go swimming. Even amongst the “naked” European tourists :) I really don’t see the problem with dying on the beach or going to the beach. Sorry :)
BintMuhammed

Assalamualaykum
What a joke muslim women have become nowadays. Now this sister is brave…I dont think i can ever sit in a sauna with my hijab and abaya, that is just pushing it way too far.

SubhanaAllah i truely want to know what this sister gained from this, except one heck of a sweat.

Anonymouse i totally agree with you lately ive been hearing the same thing about the abaya being a cultural thing, i knw this sister who was not allowed to teach at an ISLAMIC school in her abaya the principle said that the khimaar was cultural and that she needed to dress professionally! I mean if islamic schools dont even let you work in abayas who will?

WAllahu ta’alla alam
wasalamualaykum
http://nuqtah.muslimpad.com nuqtah

Nope burqini is definitely not modest or Islamic. It accentuates the wearer’s body just as well, just with a thin polythene skin on.

Furthermore, any self-respecting sister wouldn’t go hopping around in front of non-maharim in such a garb.
http://mcpagal.blogspot.com mcpagal

asalaamu alaikum,
there was a post & some interesting discussion on the same subject at Osama Saeed’s blog (link)

(really great site here btw!)
Moiez

Have any of you guys watched the Baba Ali video blogs on youtube or google they are very funny and informant one of the blogs has to do with women and hijab. You should go watch it.

Anonymouse: If you dont mind dying on the beach than. I have no more to say about that. Just makes me sad. :(
Umm Layth

wa `alaykum as-Salaam

Sr. Bint Muhammad – it is a joke what Muslim women are like nowadays. We’ve lost ourselves amongst all of this western filth.

I mean it is really saddening to think that some of us traded all of this ignorance for something better but still you have people trying to imitate these non-Muslim women (and may I add that they are simply humiliating themselves) and still trying to label it with Islaamic terms, so that they can get away with what they want.

It’s simply a hideout to label these things as “Islamic swimwear” or “burqini” etc… It’s a way to hide behind the label and make themselves think that they are being good Muslims by doing so.

May Allaah forgive them and guide us all
anonymous

From some of your comments it seems like you all tie a woman’s character and her self-respect to the way she dresses which I think is really stupid. Who cares if she chooses to go to the beach and wear the oh so “slutty” burqini or any other form of muslim swimwear. In my country the people have suddenly become very “religious” meaning the woman all wear hijabs and abayas, men grow foot long beards and don’t wear their jalabaya’s below their ankles, and everyone prays 20 times a day. Yet despite all this religiosity the women still act like trashy backstabbing b****es as they did before. They are in fact even more judgemental than before and see nothing wrong with telling an uncovered woman on the street, who is a complete stranger to them might I add, that she is dressed like a sharmouta and should be ashamed of herself. And the men of course still go around telling women they see on the street and at work all forms of sexually degrading statements (and might I add they say this to “selfrespecting” hijabis.) And after they’ve said that they proceed to tell the woman that she’s dressed like a slut because they can see a small part of her arm and she should be ashamed of herself. She is “making” him sin. And this only gets worse during Ramadan. Except during Ramadan they tell us that we’re making them break their fast. So please don’t start going on about how muslim women are absorbing all this “western” filth. If they choose to go swimming wearing muslim swimwear, whether it is the burqini or not, that has nothing to do with their self respect. There are plenty of horrible things a person can do in their lifetime and going swimming while being completly covered is certainly not one of them. Get over it.

And Umm Layth maybe your prayer should be “May Allaah forgive US and guide us all” Are you suddenly a saint that you don’t need forgiveness from Allaah?
http://thesunnah.wordpress.com abu ameerah

“…men grow foot long beards and don’t wear their jalabaya’s below their ankles, and everyone prays 20 times a day.”

–Now you’re just making fun of the Sunnah. Also, Islam does not require believers to pray “20 times a day”.
Your comments are a bit out of line. Nonetheless, please don’t try to defend the indefensible. While human beings, and Muslims are no exception, have their faults — we do not try to defend sin with baseless excuses and allegations.

You do not know what is in the hearts of the believers and have no right to judge others — just as you hate being judged.
http://nuqtah.muslimpad.com nuqtah

ooooh i see the frustration.
Umm Layth

‘Anonymous’ – Dress has been prescribed in the Shari`ah as a part of modesty and our beloved Messenger sallAllaahu `alayhi wa sallam told us that al hayaa is from Iman. If Allaah has commanded a woman to dress a certain way when she is out, it was for a reason. These sisters are the ones that need to have some shame that they are doing this publicly. It is a sin to go against the commands of Allaah and covering the `awrah, wearing lose clothing, and not being in front of men like that are part of this command. Subhaanallaah, we aren’t even supposed to soften our speech when speaking to the opposite gender and here you try to say that dress is really not that important when it comes to one’s character.

Also, we do care. We have to care. We are one body and when one part of that body hurts the entire body hurts. These sisters need to change their ways and yes we all have shortcomings but that doesn’t mean that because we aren’t perfect that we ignore these major problems.

There are ways to commanding the good and forbidding the evil – no doubt but dress was commanded for a reason. We are none to judge the intentions and none of us are perfect but it is an external sign of obedience to Allaah.
I would also try asking the `ulema about such dress and public display in front of men without a need and see what they say. It seems we manage to take our own opinions above the opinions of those who know the Qur’aan and Sunnah.

As for me being a saint, obviously I am not. In fact, I am just a Muslim woman who cares about Islaam and struggles like any other. May Allaah forgive every one of us, aameen

I also think some of us would like people to expose who they really are. If you have something to say, say it without hiding behind a name.
anonymous

I’m making fun of absolutely nothing Abu Ameerah. I’m not quite sure what you’re talking about. My praying 20 times a day comment was sarcasm and hyperbole and was said to make the point that self respect has zero to do with outward appearances and everything to do with what is inside and not visible. I’m not just making random statements. Those things that I described are things that I have experienced. I have been groped, fondled, harrassed, and maligned by so called “self respecting” people who dress like “proper muslims” and are also supposedly following the Sunnah, although what it is they are following I truly have no idea. To say that a woman who goes to the beach and wears a muslim-type bathing suit has no self respect is an absolute exaggaration and is idiotic.

And you’re absolutely right Nuqtah. I am frustrated. Frustrated by this idea that a person’s self-respect and “muslimness” is somehow tied into whether they go to the beach or not, whether they cover, and even how much they cover, how long their beard is, how long their jalabaya is, and I could go on and on and on. These are personal aspects of a person’s relationship with their faith and Allah and I don’t see why you have the right to comment on a person’s dignity or selfrespect based on these things, which are outer symbols only. The true state of a person’s self respect lies in their heart and mind and since you don’t know either maybe you shouldn’t speak of it. I don’t believe in blanket statements and that is what you appeared to be doing.

And Abu Ameerah you say I have no right to judge just as I hate being judged yet nowhere did I judge anyone. As I said I related my personal experiences. If anything it was you all who judged. One of you said no self respecting muslim woman would wear such a thing. Another said that we are just hiding behind labels in order to make ourselves feel like good muslims. Than another one said “it is a joke what muslim woman are like nowadays” And I am supposedly being the judgemental one here?!?!
Lilia (former anonymous)

Oops, we cross posted UmmLayth, sorry.
Umm Layth

No one disagrees that every action is based upon intentions but what you seem to not understand is that Eeman is belief in the heart, speech of the tongue and actions of the limbs. The Prophet (sallAllaahu `alayhi wa sallam) mentioned so many actions that were a part of Iman.

Also, you seem to be doing a lot of judging yourself. You judge people who show obedience externally and you doubt their intentions or ‘what they’re upon’. Have some husn al-dhann yourself brother/sister.
Lilia

“Have some husn al-dhann yourself brother/sister.”

LOL. Ummmm, I think someone named Lilia is usually considered to be a sister :) And as I said the experiences I related above were my own. Men don’t usually experience those types of things :)

And showing obedience externally ?!?! WTH. You seem to think that I have an issue with people who show obedience externally as you put it. I have none. But since when is sexually harassing and grabbing a woman’s butt and breasts on the street showing obedience externally?!?!
Lilia

You seemed to miss the entire gist of my comments
http://www.muslimmatters.org Amad

Thank you for sharing your name with us, Sr. Lilia. “Anonymous” commentators can be a bit irritating.

It seems that you have had some unfortunate interactions with people who were displaying the ‘on the haqq’ signs on their backs. I am sorry that you had to deal with that. I cannot honestly empathize with you (being that I am not a woman), but I can surely sympathize with you.

I understand your point and I hope you will also see what others are saying here. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and neither should one’s sinfulness lead to the shedding of one’s good deeds. What I mean is that just because someone tries to be upon the Sunnah, for instance, does not imply that they will be perfect. And unfortunately, these days, some of our brothers/sisters have taken on a cult-mentality (which Tariq Nelson referred to a little while back) that forces them mis-prioritize Islamic and general issues in life. So, I agree that there are more important things that these brothers are missing beyond merely beards and thowbs (like for instance not sexually harassing women); this still does not mean they should shed what they believe is the Sunnah, but rather they should shed what they know are the Sunnah-NOTs (the haraams).

In conclusion I do want to mention that there seems to have been an increase in recent days of picking on the people who are trying to be religious and blaming them with hypocrisy, as if efforts for religiosity exempts one from sinning. Rather, these are two separate things: you do your best to do good deeds, and you do your best to avoid sins. One should not preclude the other, because good deeds clean up the mess left behind by the evil deeds…
Umm Layth

Jazaaka Allaahu khairan brother Amad.

Sister lilia, I posted before seeing your post.
Lilia

“There are more important things that these brothers are missing beyond merely beards and thowbs (like for instance not sexually harassing women); this still does not mean they should shed what they believe is the Sunnah”

Thankyou Amad, that is kind of what I was trying to say. And I most certainly don’t think they should be abandoning these things and I apologize if I came across this way. I just feel there are much more important things about what makes a “good” man or woman and how one should conduct their life than clothes, bathing suits, and beaches. And I admit some of my very negative experiences from both men and women have definitely clouded my opinions/judgement and made me somewhat cynical with regards to this whole issue of self respectability and what makes a person selfrespectable/decent. Apologies to all if I offended you in someway.
Moiez

I think now we all understand both extremes and should try to stay in the middle, when you publicizing yourself being muslim watch yourself now more than ever non-muslims are watching us and if the people that look like muslims are not acting like muslims and Allah Hualam, I believe they are doing a great sin, and those who think that islam is what has to do with the inside and not the outside than that is a sin too. We should try to look like muslims and act like muslims. Inshallah, Allah will help us from places we dont expect if we have pure intentions.
http://www.muslimmatters.org AnonyMouse

Just in case anyone’s wondering why I haven’t said anything in response, it’s ‘cuz I’m at my grandparents’ house being spoiled rotten! :D

But, I’d just like to ditto what Amad said (which reminds me of something mentioned at a local women’s halaqah last week) – being a good Muslim isn’t *just* about your clothing, it includes your conduct towards others on a daily basis. The Sunnah includes both dress codes, and morality codes.
Abdu

salaam,

“I have been groped, fondled, harrassed, and maligned by so called “self respecting” people who dress like “proper muslims” ”
You really need to start walking around with a mahram.

One doesn’t need a mahram to walk around, Abdu. We need to place the blame squarely on where it belongs… we cannot fall into the blame-the-victim rut. That is plain wrong. -Amad
http://islamicsciences.wordpress.com ِAbu Bakr

Alhamdulillah, these issues seem to have already been cleared up, but I just thought I would mention a hadith that this discussion reminded me of:

عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ
أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ أَتَدْرُونَ مَا الْمُفْلِسُ قَالُوا الْمُفْلِسُ فِينَا مَنْ لَا دِرْهَمَ لَهُ وَلَا مَتَاعَ فَقَالَ إِنَّ الْمُفْلِسَ مِنْ أُمَّتِي يَأْتِي يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ بِصَلَاةٍ وَصِيَامٍ وَزَكَاةٍ وَيَأْتِي قَدْ شَتَمَ هَذَا وَقَذَفَ هَذَا وَأَكَلَ مَالَ هَذَا وَسَفَكَ دَمَ هَذَا وَضَرَبَ هَذَا فَيُعْطَى هَذَا مِنْ حَسَنَاتِهِ وَهَذَا مِنْ حَسَنَاتِهِ فَإِنْ فَنِيَتْ حَسَنَاتُهُ قَبْلَ أَنْ يُقْضَى مَا عَلَيْهِ أُخِذَ مِنْ خَطَايَاهُمْ فَطُرِحَتْ عَلَيْهِ ثُمَّ طُرِحَ فِي النَّارِ

Abu Hurayrah relates: Allah’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم said: “Do you know who if the [true] muflis (bankrupt person)?”

The Companions said, “The muflis amongst us is the one with no money or possessions.”

The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم responded, “Indeed, the muflis from my Ummah is the one who shall come on the Day of Resurrection with prayer, fasting, and zakah, but he will have verbally abused this person, slandered that person, devoured the wealth of this person, shed the blood of that person, and struck this person. Then, each of them will be given from his good deeds. If his good deeds should run out before his debts are repayed, then their sins will be taken and placed on him, and then he shall be cast into the Hellfire.” [Muslim]

Alhamdulillah that Allah sent to us His Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم with the most comprehensive guidance for every aspect of our lives and our conduct.

In a similar vein, of the first of those thrown in the hellfire on the Day of Judgment will be the insincere scholar, reciter, and mujahid, and the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) also told us, “Allah does not look to your appearances, but He looks to your hearts and your deeds.”

The things that relate to our outward appearances such as keeping a beard, wearing appropriate shar’i dress, etc. are part of our deeds. Therefore, we will be held accountable for those matters as well, but there is a difference between those who do such things because it is the fad or in order to show off, and those who have submitted their hearts to Allah and therefore strive to make their inside and their outside match the dictates of Allah’s Shari’ah.
Lilia

LOL Wow you all are so much more eloquent than me. I could have probably avoided this whole boomba if I had just worded my thoughts like this… “being a good Muslim isn’t *just* about your clothing, it includes your conduct towards others on a daily basis” :) And yes I probably am a bit guilty of having gone a big overboard with my views. As Moiez said, from one extreme to the other. The middle path is always best. May Allah help us all.

“You really need to start walking around with a mahram” Ummmmmmm what makes you think I wasn’t? LOL I’m guessing that you apparently have ZERO clue about what its like to live as a woman in the middle east (and in particular certain countries). I love how some people just hoist the blame back on the woman as if she was the one doing something wrong.
http://thesunnah.wordpress.com abu ameerah

I still stand by my original comments. Just to clarify (not that it really matters), I do not think my comments were in any way, shape or form: harsh, disrespectful, or extreme.

If Muslims who have beards and dress a certain way are to avoid judging others….that same should also apply to those Brothers and Sisters among us who want to keep up with the latest trends in fashion/clothing (or whatever). The “fashionistas” that we have all come to know and love, if you will.

If someone wants to maintain a couture look…go right ahead!If someone wants to sport the “burqini”…why not? If you want to sport something from the Spring/Summer ’07 collection of Yves Saint Laurant Rive Gauche…be my guest!

My point is simply that rather than judge one another — Why not simply compete in the “market place of ideas”?
Abdu

“One doesn’t need a mahram to walk around, Abdu. We need to place the blame squarely on where it belongs… we cannot fall into the blame-the-victim rut. That is plain wrong. -Amad”

salaam,

I am not saying what they do to her is correct, nor am I saying that it is fard. What I was doing was offering her a solution to her situation.
http://nuqtah.muslimpad.com nuqtah

Lilia:

I had used the word ‘mental’, suggesting that I was using the words in a figurative sense. And, the advice given was perfectly sound. When one is angry/frustrated/etc…they should perform wudhu. Yet you backfired at me. I’m glad in a way that you did, more good deeds for me eh? Thanks! :)

(but yeah i agree with above comments that our deeds are pointless if our hearts aren’t sincere.)

The following article is a good read in this regard:
http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=29&sub_cat_id=768
BintMuhammed

Assalamualaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh

Lilia if your mahram was with you, how could these men do what they did to you. I dont ask this in a rude way but rather to understand and comprehend the situation you were in. What would give these men the right to do that while your mahram was present?

I know a sister telling me that this is what happens in a specific muslim country (which i shall not mention) but she said they did this to girls if they were walking to the supermarket or in an alley by themselves or without a mahram.

Wasalamualaykum

Wasalamualaykum
rob

every one lightn up , let the muslim women wear what they want and enough with this crap burkeni bikini who cares . they are a lot of beautiful muslim women out there but some real ugly ones too , that even if they were naked at the beach no one would even look , and as for the sunnah and sharia we need some people who been there and done that to truly study and explain it the right way not the way its done now where everyone is a saint and knows what this verse and that verse realy means . and seperation of mosque and state is a brilliant idea . and for those who think the west is bad , filthy and evil go back east and stop shoving your ideas down peoples throats.
to the muslim women rebel a little and the hell with the burkini wear a bikini if you can carry it , god will not punish you for it . lets move into the 21st century people culturally and religiously . lets make refirigrators , cars , tvs and feed ourselves and all this debate will be reduced to isolated chanels like the 700 club and jesus camps.
wasalam alikum
Umm Layth

Ya Ilahi.

Some of us were raised in the west, brought up catholic/christian. Would you tell white americans to go back to the east for speaking out against their country, like MANY do so?

Instead of calling people away from obeying Allaah, call them to good. Even some christians are smarter than that.
Altavista

Read this for another view:

http://www.sunnisisters.com/?p=2289
Aisha

In response to comments about “Western Filth” didn’t belly dancing originate in the Middle East?
saman

you guys have way much time to waste!!! people are dying in hundreds in Iraq, and your arguing on whoi should or shouldn’t go to the beach?

grow up
saman

no wonder leaders in middle east guards us like sheeps
Mrs.M.

Islam is the religion of moderation
It is sunnah to learn to swim-and ride horses…can one ride easily with a traditional abaya on?Would the horse be spooked due to flapping loose fabric when moving to the horse,getting on the horse and in the wind(likely)? Can the average everday Muslimah expect to stay in a totally private or segregated area to do any type of exercise such as jogging/riding/boating/windsurfing/mountain climbing/walking briskly,etc like in a mutimillionaire’s compound? I wonder if private swimming pools were available in those “old days” or if it is common and accessible to the avergae Muslimah as a way to get regular exercise and recreation. Aisha(r.a)is said to have raced with her husband-she perhaps could have had a garment or wear the garment in such a way that didnt trip her while running? Can very modest Islamically correct work or exercise clothing be a worn or is it unacceptable due to cultural norms rather than sunnah dictates? Are we putting more importance on our individual culture’s say on what is appropriate than what our religion teaches? Should the ummah be concerned if more deadly obesity and diabetes(heart disease/depression/osteoporosis due to lack of activity) are affecting the Muslimahs and hence their children as well due to inaccessibility of appropriate and available opprtunities for exercise, especially outdoors when weather permits to get fresh air and sunlight?Hmmm…….
It is true many areas where it is common to get fresh air/exercise/healthful recreation(as well as shopping and riding a car or walking to work or mosque/friends/family) is often frequented by modern Westernized persons who often clad themselves immodestly and may have immoral behaviour. In addition there are often large numbers of families attending who are non-muslim and are not seen acting out immoral activities except for their culturally normal dress for themselves.
do those factors put it off limits for Muslims as well as Muslimahs to be anywhere in that area even if they are not doing that behaviour?At what precentage of that type of dress and or observable or perceived behaviour do we call it off limits? Obviously a bar or nightclub is the extreme example where a Muslim really has no need to attend as the main attraction is lewd behaviour/drinking and illicit sexual relationships-often a sign of the environment of this type is no children are allowed there. Just some thoughts.
http://www.expression-web.com Abu Yasin

Salaam Alikum Brothers and Sisters,

We all keep forgeting that Islam doesn’t recognise gray area’s it is either black or white and before any give his/ her views they should stop and see in their heart of hearts what they feel and think about it. small matters is huge for a real believer so please just move away from the gray area’s and be safe from it.

and regard to what sister Mrs M asked about ridding horse’s the hadith was ment for Males as they will need it for fighting and travelinh and protecting their sisters,
zoi

I agree with Abu Yasin in ISlam its either a yes or a no, you cannot bend the rules. If you wear a hijab then wear it properly

Zainab (AnonyMouse)

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