Utah Philips tells these:

“I had to move out of town. Damn Unitarians burned a question mark on my lawn”

“I worked at a Unitarian summer camp. We sang songs like “‘We would rather not be moved.’”

“We had a charity drive: send a poor Unitarian child to camp, if you can find one”

Anyway:
The reason why many Muslims hold contempt for these apostates are the attempts by many apostates at maligning Islam. The people who are really hostile are the apostates (towards Muslims), much more than the reverse. Do you see Christian reverts (to Islam) go out and start attacking Christians and the Bible, except in an academic way? Generally speaking, you don’t. Muslims are committed to their faith and if the apostates leave us alone, I am sure we would leave them alone as well (of course no allowance for any physical violence).

Yes of course many former Christians are very bitter and attack that religion, though usually only former conservative Christians have that problem. More liberal versions of religions have much less dogma and much less hostility toward outsiders, so there’s very little to attack.

Really, I’m surprised that you think that there aren’t so many. There are many, many people who attack Christianity with incredible bitterness, or at least complete contempt. And there are many who attack religion without being specific to religion.

This is one of the reasons that people are so bothered by Islams’ ban on criticism, because we fought hard, step by step for that right. Each century, each decade we’ve gained more freedom to attack religion, until finally, there are no restrictions on that sort of speech at all. And now such a freedom is anything but obscure. Look up the comedian Lenny Bruce if you want an example of someone who fought the last few steps of the fight to mock religion in public.

Anyway, to some extent you have cause and effect confused. Some of the hostility that former Muslims have comes precisely from the fact that Islam has declared war on them. If you make a man your enemy, don’t be surprised if he acts like one.

I guess its the classic question of who came first: the chicken and the egg. Of course, we believe that Allah created the chicken, so we have kind of solved that one :) The apostates are free to criticize Muslims in the West, and when money is involved, which is the case in many cases, then they should be prepared to accept criticism in return. On this final note, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Thank you for the interesting discussion. -Amad

a) No need to generalize. I said “many” apostates have made a living out of it, not “all”.
b) Josh: “No matter where you live, west or east, if you convert you still have to deal with your family’s reaction, your friends’ reactions etc.”. Yes, absolutely, and that applies to all converts from any religion.
c) The reason why many Muslims hold contempt for these apostates are the attempts by many apostates at maligning Islam. The people who are really hostile are the apostates (towards Muslims), much more than the reverse. Do you see Christian reverts (to Islam) go out and start attacking Christians and the Bible, except in an academic way? Generally speaking, you don’t. Muslims are committed to their faith and if the apostates leave us alone, I am sure we would leave them alone as well (of course no allowance for any physical violence).
d) Many Ahmadis live all over the Muslim world. My family in Pakistan has family friends among them. They are doing just fine. And saying that they are subjected to violence is utter nonsense (I am sure exceptions exist just like Muslims in the West are subject to hate-crimes).

Finally, “Aren’t you implying that they are heretics who have perverted Islam? And if so, isn’t it supposed to be your duty to go to war to convert them by the sword – or kill them?”

The answer is no. Ahmadis are not Muslim-heretics, they are just not Muslims, simple as that, just like Christians, Jews, Hindus or others. If it was the ‘duty’ of Muslims to kill non-Muslims, then there wouldn’t be any left in Islamic countries.

This tangent to the topic is now closed as you have degraded this into stereotypical Islam-bashing. You can continue your discussions with your ‘apostate-wannabe’ friend. You are free to contribute positively to any other discussion.

thanks.

Aren’t you implying that they are heretics who have perverted Islam? And if so, isn’t it supposed to be your duty to go to war to convert them by the sword – or kill them?

Takfiring his entire family and community is certainly much more brutal and bloodthirsty than doing it to that single individual!

No matter where you live, west or east, if you convert you still have to deal with your family’s reaction, your friends’ reactions etc.

Also, I think everything you said about Isaac was completely unfair.

No matter whether you consider him a Muslim or not, his own people consider themselves Muslims and have, no doubt, the same cultural problems as other Muslims, including their mistreatment of what they consider apostates. In any case his own country, Pakistan, does or did consider Ahmadis to be a sort of Muslim at least some of the time, so he still has to deal with Pakistan’s laws and culture if he goes back.

That, because of attitudes like yours, he risks being treated as a having been born a heretic hardly improves his situation.

You make it sound like you’re being generous by saying that he isn’t an apostate. I can’t see it that way.

And second of all, the only financial help Isaac got, as far as I can tell, was a few small donations that barely covered his laywers fee for his hearing (a mere $2000). I know for a fact that he didn’t have all that wide support because I followed the blog traffic about him on technorati. He got a link from a large blog (that scrolled off the main page in the same day) and not much traffic after that.

By the way, I did send him a very (very) small contribution (I was completely broke at the time, myself).

Many apostates have made a living out of being one.

I really am sick of Muslims who always start smearing shit on people when they can’t think of any other way to defend their hostility.

I’m sorry, but I do not, and will never buy the implication that not being a Muslim equals being corrupt. That sort of thinking is just hate mongering.

As far as family pressures, social pressures, don’t you think Christian reverts face that living in the West? Ask any of them and perhaps you will feel differently.

People wouldn’t be reacting to ex-Muslims stories the way they do if there was any comparison. We’re shocked, really, because we don’t act that way. Not in this day and age.

As far as your comment, “I would avoid that argument [re: Islam's resilience in light of attacks on it] because, because the more obvious interpretation just jumps out at you [i.e. people don't convert because of fear]. You know what I mean?”

To be honest, this is complete and utter baloney. First of all, let’s set something straight– Isaac isn’t an apostate. After reading up on him today, it seems that he was an Ahmadi; Ahmadis are already not Muslims. You can’t apostate from what you never were.

Secondly, millions of Muslims live in the West, with full rights to become whatever they choose. Even if I were to accept, for the sake of argument, that it would be difficult to convert in Muslim countries (though evangelists seem to be working quite freely in many of them) , that is not the case in the West. In fact, apostates seem to get a lot of support, esp. financial (as in the case of Isaac who also got his residency privileges in Canada). Many apostates have made a living out of being one. As far as family pressures, social pressures, don’t you think Christian reverts face that living in the West? Ask any of them and perhaps you will feel differently.

Muslims don’t convert because the message is plain, simple and beautiful. Its monotheism is unmatched, and its followers recognize that fact. Most Christian scholars recognize this aspect about Islam, and there is also some envy as to why this doesn’t happen with other religions. I think sometimes we just need to admit certain things instead of trying to mask it with subjective and self-serving arguments.

Thank you again Josh, for the civil discourse.

I think that even the Catholic Church has basically gotten rid of Hell. They now claim that hell or damnation just means a lack of God’s presence and blessing, whatever that is.

By the way, I’m not a Christian… I’m just pointing out context.